Scotland vs Samoa...! Just about to start, the hosts the Boks vs Italy to follow afterwards

First topic message reminder :

Scotland: 15 Greig Tonks, 14 Sean Lamont, 13 Alex Dunbar, 12 Matt Scott, 11 Tim Visser, 10 Tom Heathcote, 9 Greig Laidlaw, 8 Johnnie Beattie, 7 Kelly Brown, 6 Alasdair Strokosch, 5 Alastair Kellock, 4 Grant Gilchrist, 3 Euan Murray, 2 Pat MacArthur, 1 Alasdair Dickinson.

Replacements: 16 Stevie Lawrie, 17 Moray Low, 18 Geoff Cross, 19 Jim Hamilton, 20 Ryan Wilson, 21 Henry Pyrgos, 22 Peter Horne, 23 Duncan Taylor.


Samoa: 15 James Sooialo, 14 Alapati Leiua, 13 Paul Williams (c), 12 Jonny Leota, 11 Alesana Tuilagi, 10 Tusiata Pisi, 9 Jeremy Sua, 8 Taiasina Tuifua, 7 Jack Lam, 6 Ofisa Treviranus, 5 Daniel Leo, 4 Teofilo Paulo, 3 Census Johnston, 2 Wayne Ole Avei, 1 Logovii Mulipola.

Replacements: 16 Maatulimanu Leiataua, 17 Sakaria Taulafo, 18 James Johnston, 19 Faatiga Lemalu, 20 Junior Poluleuligaga, 21 Brando Vaaulu, 22 Seilala Mapusua, 23 Alafoti Faosiliva

tigertattie wrote:It galls me when teams win dirty like this!

How did they win dirty?

That was very poor for Scotland. Absolute farce they didn't get a yellow though.

Well done Samoa!

I ask this question every time we lose like this. Why go for a lineout when youve won a penalty 5m out and you dont have much time left? Just tap and go!!!! All it does is throw doubt into wether youll actually secure possesion and waste your own time. We dids it against Tonga and continually failed to score from it. When will they learn!?

It's fair to say we've missed Brown in the second-half and throughout the game weren't physical enough. Horne may have shown an inability to play international level rugby. Crucially the start was awful and the finish wasn't much better, you have to question the lack of yellow cards when one team concedes three times as many penalties as the other. Positives are that Dunbar and Heathcote looked impressive, particularly Heathcote, and if we can put Maitland and Hogg into that backline it will be very threatening. Negatives include the lack of finishing prowess, the decision to take off Visser whe we needed tries was interesting, Horne had a pretty awful debut, there were a fair few injuries, Wilson was anonymous. We did miss Gray and Grant's workrate up front and in defence and Ford is starting to look better in his absence.

Well done Samoa, just hope it's a different story in Autumn 2015, although Autumn in Newcastle will probably favour us because of the crowd and conditions and we'll have our best players considering we were missing Grant, Ford, Gray, Rennie, Brown for half,Weir, Maitland and Hogg but it still wasn't good enough.

RDW_Scotland wrote:That was very poor for Scotland. Absolute farce they didn't get a yellow though.

Well done Samoa!

For repeated offending they should have had a yellow at the end.

Just looked to me though as if just one team actually wanted that game.

123456789 wrote: and we'll have our best players considering we were missing Grant, Ford, Gray, Rennie, Brown for half,Weir, Maitland and Hogg but it still wasn't good enough.

Though Samoa were also missing a fair few players.

We can't tackle, what training have these boys been doing and did they know before hand the opposition was samoa a team which likes to run through you, go low and rap them round the legs especially Horne take note.

Numbers, You can never use an excuse of missing players when playing against a PI. The only time they MIGHT have a full deck to choose from is at a world cup.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Numbers, You can never use an excuse of missing players when playing against a PI. The only time they MIGHT have a full deck to choose from is at a world cup.

No I wasn't saying it was an excuse for the defeat just for our abysmal performance

LondonTiger wrote:

123456789 wrote: and we'll have our best players considering we were missing Grant, Ford, Gray, Rennie, Brown for half,Weir, Maitland and Hogg but it still wasn't good enough.

Though Samoa were also missing a fair few players.

Thats scary to think of. If you could throw the likes of Fotuali and Tekori into that team it would be serious!

Dickinson: Did alright considering we thought he was going to get mullered
Lawrie: Apart from one miscommunication, solid set piece, but quiet around the park. Macarthur not on long enough to comment
Murray: Solid set piece, anonymous round the park
Gilchrist: Looked for work, but made virtually no ground.
Kellock: As usual, all talk and no walk. Good lineout, but no work in the loose again.
Strokosch: Our best player. Only one who looked up for it. Carried really well which was a surprise.
Brown: Didnt see too much in the first half, but he was carrying that injury from quite early on. Absolved of blame.
Beattie: Some good flashes. Some awfull flashes.
Laidlaw: too slow. Sweeped well and good vision when broken up, but no quick ball when the defence was set
Heathcote: Could only play with what he was given. Did well in the circumstances.
Visser: If youre gonna play Visser, you have to use him as per the instructions that come on his box. If you just want a solid winger who can be relied upon to muck in when youre not playing expansively, dont play him. I agree he doesnt do enough at times, but thats not what hes there for. Hes there to put on the end of fast ball, and that just isnt happening.
Scott: nothing great, nothing too bad either. looked frustrated.
Dunbar: A decent debut. Spilled in contact a couple of times and got burned for the first try, but overall an ok showing
Lamont: Can never question his commitment. Our best back.
Tonks: too often on the wrong end of a two on one, not entirely his fault but he wasnt a rock. Fielded well and showed up well on attack a couple of times. Hogg will be getting the shirt back though when he returns.

Low: scrum didnt really change with him
Cross: same as above. Got around the park more than Murray though
Hamilton: errors at crucial stages. One to forget
Wilson: I forgot he was even on the pitch until he fielded a high ball near the end
Pyrgos: injected a bit of pace to proceedings.
Horne: A game to forget. lateral in attack and squandered an overlap in the final 5 that we had to take. Less said about that tackle the better.
Taylor: some nice touches. not really enough time to pass too much judgement on.

Edit: overall though they all fail because of the attitude shown. International teams should not be that passive. They should not need an excuse to be fired up for a game. Once again, we didnt wake up until it was all over.

Disappointing from Scotland.

We were lucky to even come 2nd best in the physical contest! Absolutely blown away. The backs were back to their best as well in terms of crap passing, lateral running and stupid mistakes.

Now the real problem is we've got South Africa next, and they are going to be even more physical! I think we need to bring Denton in - for all his faults the one thing he does do is bring a lot of physicality. Similarly I think we need to stick with Lawrie - he did enough to show he can cope at this level, and is pretty physical.

Apart from that there's not much else we can do! Gonna be a real tough game next week.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Disappointing from Scotland.

We were lucky to even come 2nd best in the physical contest! Absolutely blown away. The backs were back to their best as well in terms of crap passing, lateral running and stupid mistakes.

Now the real problem is we've got South Africa next, and they are going to be even more physical! I think we need to bring Denton in - for all his faults the one thing he does do is bring a lot of physicality. Similarly I think we need to stick with Lawrie - he did enough to show he can cope at this level, and is pretty physical.

Apart from that there's not much else we can do! Gonna be a real tough game next week.

People are probably going to crucify this, but I agree. For all his faults, he wouldve risen to the physicality and given go forward.

Shocking performance, strokosch was the only player to show up for 80 minutes. The tackling was utterly woeful, the worst I've seen from any scotland side. Zero intensity in defence and we continously gave them metres of momentum.

Sounds like they're all having fun down there off the pitch. I'm pleased for them, I really am. Bring back andy robinson!

funnyExiledScot wrote:Shocking performance, strokosch was the only player to show up for 80 minutes. The tackling was utterly woeful, the worst I've seen from any scotland side. Zero intensity in defence and we continously gave them metres of momentum.

Sounds like they're all having fun down there off the pitch. I'm pleased for them, I really am. Bring back andy robinson!

It's a shame for rugby that the Pacific Islanders don't get more rugby together because they'd be threatening top-five if they did. However, that does not justify Scotland's pitiful excuse for a rugby team.

Right before everyone goes too over the top, this was the first game. There's been mostly a month out of action. I know Japan and Fiji played last week. Did Samoa?

Yes it wasn't great and yes there too many mistakes, but still it's one game.

HammerofThunor wrote:Right before everyone goes too over the top, this was the first game. There's been mostly a month out of action. I know Japan and Fiji played last week. Did Samoa?

Yes it wasn't great and yes there too many mistakes, but still it's one game.

No Samoa aren't in the Pacific nations cup this year so they haven't played.

Fiji played a developement side last week and Japan were without their super 15 stars. That competition is used as a development competition pretty much, because most of their players make themselves unavailable. Which is a huge shame because it would be a high quality tournament otherwise.

Imagine how good Samoa would be if everyone was available and they played with each other regularly.

If Scotland tackle like that against this South Africa back 3 they will get slaughtered - they have been phenomenal against Italy.

HammerofThunor wrote:Right before everyone goes too over the top, this was the first game. There's been mostly a month out of action. I know Japan and Fiji played last week. Did Samoa?

Yes it wasn't great and yes there too many mistakes, but still it's one game.

Erm, yes they did and not too well by all accounts MATCH REPORT

HIGHLIGHTS

Interesting.. Didnt know about that. Though I wonder how much of the team was the same as today

Never been so glad to miss a Scotland game in my life by the sounds of it.

1) Stand Out Players
I felt today that Strokosch and Lamont were the stand out players, and it's interesting to note (injured Kelly Brown aside) that they are the most experienced players. Not sure about caps specifically but they've been in the international setup for well over 5 years now. They were hitting the line with speed but more importantly strength, and they were using good tackle technique. Generally they were being a nuisance whenever they could.

Maybe it's not true that 'nobody else was up for it', but I reckon the less experienced lads just had a hard time adjusting to the pacific islanders this time around. How many times have I seen Lamont in the past bundle a PI player out of touch in these games? He knows the ropes. We had no choice I know, but we might have done with a bit more experience in this one if we were really keen on winning it.

2) Good learning curve
I wonder if we were balancing priorities, though? Personally this tournament means nothing to me in terms of result, but if we come back with some new caps, new starters, better experienced players, we'll be doing well in terms of building.

3) General state of Scottish rugby
Personally I can't wait until the new coach. Honeymoon period seems already to be over with Johnson.

For Scotland to be considered a respected side, we have GOT to start being consistent at winning when we are expected to. You cannot beat the likes of Aus, SA, Ireland and then lose to Tonga, Samoa, Italy within the same international window. I would rather we had a year or two of only beating sides we were 'close to' and solidify being able to do that instead of pulling off the odd random victory against off guard opposition. Come 6N and WC time nobody is off guard, and that's why we don't traditionally fare well in those competitions.

4) Our 9/10 axis
Every time Laidlaw plays at 9 our 10 becomes anonymous and I don't think it is because of the 10. He's got to start trusting our 10 to be a playmaker. I understand Laidlaw is a playmaking 9, but sometimes quick delivery is all that's required. I like the guy a lot, he's got a great rugby brain, but he's always looking for the 'clever' well-strategized option ... sometimes I'm screaming STOP POINTING AT YOUR FORWARDS AND JUST GET IT OUT. He does notice overlaps most times, but takes out the intensity when he stands there for too long. Maybe his forwards and backs aren't sticking to plan so he's waiting, don't know.

[On that note in general - today I was screaming for Scotland just to put their heads down and do the old Samoan sidesteps instead of the Scottish (drop the ball) ones: up the jumper, make ground, force the penalty.]

So that said, Heathcote looked pretty good to me. A shame his current record is 0 from 2 against PI teams we had never lost to in the past. Not particularly good management of the poor lad!

So, if I understand this right, Scotland may get to play Samoa again depending on results next weekend?

Patersonismyhero - welcome and great name!

Notch, that's correct. But I suspect Scotland will be playing Italy for 3rd place. Even if Italy pull it out of the bag, they'd have to tank Samoa to win on points difference, right? ON that note does anybody know if a bonus points system is being used or not to determine league standings?

The tournament structure's a bit strange - Samoa have got an easier ride than the rest, but then again if Scotland just beat Samoa today, which they should have, it wouldn't have been a problem!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Patersonismyhero - welcome and great name!

Thanks!!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Patersonismyhero - welcome and great name!

+1 Welcome onboard.

What!? Level headed reasoned opinion without knee jerk angry reaction?

Youre not going to last long here.

[/kidding]

Welcome to the board!

I did get welcome messages when I joined!

Where's my fanfare!

But seriously, welcome to the board - good to see more Scotland fans about, together maybe we can outnumber the bl*ody Irish!

wales606 wrote:I did get welcome messages when I joined!

Where's my fanfare!

But seriously, welcome to the board - good to see more Scotland fans about, together maybe we can outnumber the bl*ody Irish!

Welcome to the board wales606. Tis a great place where Scots and Welsh get on like a house on fire. Never any arguments between us!

The Welsh just aren't as friendly as us Scots obviously!

Its Lions time, I welcome poster of all nationalities every 4 years...except the French

I'm pretty sure I joined original 606 in '09...or maybe 08

To be fair Samoa have shown that they can pull off individual performances before when they beat Oz and France.

That they've now beaten Scotland is a surprise but not a massive one, their players are individually on a par with most top10 teams, it's only a lack of game time together which has hindered them, something that they didn't have this time.

yappysnap wrote:That they've now beaten Scotland is a surprise but not a massive one, their players are individually on a par with most top10 teams, it's only a lack of game time together which has hindered them, something that they didn't have this time.

7th in the world beats 10th in the world at neutral venue? I'm very unsurprised- and glad we aren't playing Samoa this summer! Good team. Those wins against Australia and France were NOT one offs. They've been consistently putting it up to teams for a while.

Beating Australia, Wales and now Scotland in the last two years is a good record.

Totally agree Notch - don't know how in any way we could have been classed as favourites?

Samoa have well and truly overtaken us in the rugby pecking order.

Interestingly Canada beat Tonga today - does that mean technically they are better than us too??

I didn't realise they were 7th, very impressive. Just out of interest are ranking points being given for the summer tours?

Thought ranking points were given for any capped international+

All ill say is good old shlong. I wish all our players had his commitment.

tigertattie wrote:All ill say is good old shlong. I wish all our players had his commitment.

That's what she said.

Anyone? No? Just me then...

Can't bring myself to watch the lowlights yet but I mean, holy sh!tballs, did we really commit 19 handling errors?

George Carlin wrote:Can't bring myself to watch the lowlights yet but I mean, holy sh!tballs, did we really commit 19 handling errors?

We missed 7 tackles in the first 20 minutes. It really was that bad.

yappysnap wrote:I didn't realise they were 7th, very impressive. Just out of interest are ranking points being given for the summer tours?

Yeah, I think Scotland may drop below Tonga and Italy. Samoa stay above Ireland who go above Argentina.

None of it really matters but it's good (for the game) that teams seem so close in the rankings these days.

Imperialbigdave wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Can't bring myself to watch the lowlights yet but I mean, holy sh!tballs, did we really commit 19 handling errors?

We missed 7 tackles in the first 20 minutes. It really was that bad.

We deserved to lose it, then. The traditional advantages that we always had over Pacific Islanders were better technical skills and a reliable set piece which offset our lack of ability to match them physically. If we can't do that, then we're screwed. It's a young team though, so I hope that the Springboks don't run up a cricket score. Be pretty demoralising if they did.

Ok, watched it this morning and while it was a disappointment I think we need to give some of the young guys a break.

In their first tests they came up against one of the most destructive runners in the game. Yes they fell off tackles, but give them some time to bed in before you throw them out.

Thought stocks, heathcote and tonks had good games.

Lamont was fairly industrious

The team made some good breaks and had chances, but fluffed a few passes.

Hopefully we can learn from this and keep,giving the new caps a chance

There are a number of positives to take from this, Samoa are a good test. Samoa played very well and Scotland, poor to concede those early tries, pulled themselves back into the game.

The biggest mismatch was about fifty kilos with Tuilagi Snr running through Laidlaw. To counter Samoa's abrasive style specialist tactics have to be employed.

Heathcote/Laidlaw looks great. Dunbar/Scott are fantastic in attack, poor in defence.

Backrow is an issue.

I didn't think Jelly Brown had a good game, also he is no openside. When Scotland have so many great opensides they have to play ahead of the big blindside fellas.

The three B's were a sublime backrow. Scotland need that back.

Just to add to our woes looks like Brown, McArthur & the Rev will miss the rest of the tour through injury.

GLove39 wrote:Just to add to our woes looks like Brown, McArthur & the Rev will miss the rest of the tour through injury.

Big, big Love sacks. Denton can take over from Brown on the blind but that leaves us light on back row cover. Murray is actually a bigger loss, I think. Low (still without mojo a little?) or Welsh for the 3 shirt in that case?

Am I the only one who didn't think it was all doom and gloom? We had a lot of new starters and Samoa looked dangerous from the first whistle. Losing MacArthur early doors and Brown at half time really knocked the stuffing out of us and despite that we still got our noses ahead.

We fell off some tackles and from memory wrecked a really good try scoring chance but apart from that it wasn't that bad.

Surprised how solid our Scrum looked actually.

if you cannot put the tackles in, its going to be a job to stop teams scoring.

I don't care if it is your first cap. Age does not come into it. At senior level, if you cannot tackles, you need to have a look at yourself!

I don’t share your enthusiasm radge (maybe it’s a Monday morning thing.)

Looking at the team I would have though that we could have at least competed physically but we were no where close. I thought Scott and Dunbar would be a pretty physical centre combo but they looked like they were in the under 20s team compared to the Samoans.

One of the problems is there guys are just gym strong – the Samoans are naturally powerful.