Shane Williams gets Lions call up (this is not a joke)

by GLove39 Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:04 am

First topic message reminder :

Named in team for Brumbies!!!!!

How many extra backs have they called up now???
Will Williams be fit given he's retired and gone onto commentary?

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:41 pm

SecretFly wrote:..why have the extra games at all and just have a three test tour against a bunch of players who are also only going to have three tests...

One of the points of a Lions tour is to find out who your best team is by playing games. Unlike ordinary national teams, there's no playing history for the Lions upon which to base selection. That's also a reason it's disappointing if the opposition isn't strong enough, because you can't make a proper comparison between performances.

Graham Henry (implicitly) and Clive Woodward (explicitly) pre-selected their starting XVs and created divisions within the squads. It needed McGeechan in 2009 to restore competition for places as a necessary part of building team spirit. Gatland seems to be following the 2009 model.

If the Lions just play Test matches, then it will turn the concept into something more akin to an MLB All-Star selection rather than a functioning team. It's doubtful there'd be the same level of interest.

by Guest Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:43 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:If the Lions get pumped I'll laugh my erse off. It's been a monumental shambles from the start.

Shane Williams

That's the spirit

by flyhalffactory Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:44 pm

Griff wrote:Biggar is not a wing.

We know that Shocked

But we have Hogg...... Halfpenny...... Kearney...... Maitland....... Cuthbert....... Wade........ North (ok he's doubtful) who are or have played wing and you have a player in Biggar who is in great form and arguably should have been going as part of the original squad, its all about showing some sort of respect to the Lions Jersey and giving it to players who are actually fit, training, on form and actually playing at international level NOW, and not making it some sort of circus.

The FH situation is much worse than the wing: Sexton is nursing a slight strain already, Farrell has had an up and down tour so far, Hogg has played loads of minutes already. We have two games that are non tests we should be calling a 10 for the Brumbies match with a view to covering the Melbourne Rebels match as well, and ditto the centre situation (Doc and Manu both injured) for the same reason.

•Tue 18 June: ACT Brumbies, Canberra
•Sat 22 June: Australia, First Test, Brisbane
•Tue 25 June: Melbourne Rebels, Melbourne
•Sat 29 June: Australia, Second Test, Melbourne
•Sat 6 July: Australia, Third Test, Sydney

We have British players who are going to be bitterly disappointed this morning, if I was Biggar, Madigan, Scott or any relevant players who have had an awesome summer tour, why not look at the young English players who have been on fire against Argentina for example.

There are just so many options that would have given credit and respect to the Lions jersey.

by Guest Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:46 pm

broadlandboy wrote:You can not disregard jet lag

No you can't. Neither can you discount timezone changes etc, plus the key point which seems to float straight over people's heads, that how many of your Visser's, Trimble's et al can train tomorrow?

by Guest Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:48 pm

The big thing is that Williams will have a day of training, learning the moves and calls. Others would not.

by bedfordwelsh Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:48 pm

Biggar was very poor yesterday against Japan.

by **George Carlin** Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:50 pm

Griff wrote:George, they all played yesterday. Can you expect them to then fly half way round the world to play another game on tuesday with no problems? Also, are the flights from SA, Argentina, etc. regular and direct to get the player there in time? Shane Williams is just for convenience. If Ashton had been in Oz I'm sure he would have been in too.

It would be a tough ask, to be sure Griff, but my point is that there are a large number of young players who would have jumped at the opportunity to try. Practically, of course it's sensible for SG to be called up. I just don't think that you can dismiss disappointed young players who would have liked their shot as being merely 'impractical' though.

I have no doubt that it could be reasonably argued Gats was caught between a rock and a hard one and should actually be commended for using his massive heed. However, the Lions is an emotive issue for a lot of young players and the brickbats go with the territory.

by kingjohn7 Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:52 pm

Rugger they played a test match yesterday. If they hadnt and they were close by then yes they would/should get the call. S Williams just happens to be the only quality winger(fingers crossed) that can get there in time fresh.

by flyhalffactory Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:52 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:You can not disregard jet lag

No you can't. Neither can you discount timezone changes etc, plus the key point which seems to float straight over people's heads, that how many of your Visser's, Trimble's et al can train tomorrow?

Risca
You do know that Shane was recently on the razz with Stephen Jones in HK, boozing n smoking until the early hours....... Doesn't matter if some of the fit players would have caught the NO:10 Bus they would still have been in better nick.............

I think Gatland could have done something sooner

by Guest Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:54 pm

How do you know that? Hong Kong was a wee while ago anyway and I'm sure he can train hard enough to knock a few heavy beer sessions out of his system. The Barbarians used to manage a boozy week and a game on a Saturday.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:55 pm

broadlandboy wrote:You can not disregard jet lag

It's not just jet lag. Try getting a flight schedule between Nelspruit and Canberra. I don't think any Scottish player would have been able to arrive much before early Monday evening.

by Guest Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:56 pm

I'd be surprised if Williams smoked to be honest as well. Though it explains the lack of growth.

by **George Carlin** Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:56 pm

Risca Rev wrote:How do you know that? Hong Kong was a wee while ago anyway and I'm sure he can train hard enough to knock a few heavy beer sessions out of his system. The Barbarians used to manage a boozy week and a game on a Saturday.

If you were JPR, you barely stopped drinking long enough to start the warm up. Allegedly. Run

by gavstar Sun 16 Jun 2013, 1:00 pm

risca, the game in japan was a total mess, not because of biggar, but because the tactics were the usual up flat , out to centres etc..........but the centres were hopeless and the style of game was for big hitters, runners which we didnt have. also, no-one did anything at the rucks, we had kids playing !!!

to discount biggar on that doesnt make sense after the 6ns, and last seasons performances.

in wales, press calling for hook, ( thats why we dont get any shouts from the press for biggar)

but one reporter in the press, parfitt i think, said he got the blunt gatts treatment. he asked gatland if hook was on the radar for lions replacements, gatts looked at him with disdain said 'no' and looked away.

hooks agent derwyn jones says its a real snub, and he doesnt know what else his man can do to get picked. i would suggest hooks time has gone.

as for a snub, how about biggar being the only player in the 6ns side against england not to go.

if your face dont fit, end of.

by irnbrew Sun 16 Jun 2013, 1:00 pm

How bad is the injuries to need all this cover why are the Lions not saying

by bedfordwelsh Sun 16 Jun 2013, 1:00 pm

George,

Nothing alleged about it, its all true. A family member played against him often through the 70 and came to know him well, which for me as a kid in the 70s was great as I got to sit and listen to my hero talk about tours and what they got upto.

by flyhalffactory Sun 16 Jun 2013, 1:02 pm

Risca Rev wrote:How do you know that? Hong Kong was a wee while ago anyway and I'm sure he can train hard enough to knock a few heavy beer sessions out of his system. The Barbarians used to manage a boozy week and a game on a Saturday.

Risca
I have mates who are "on the tour" who chatted to them both during the wee hours, they certainly were on a mission.

The point is you have playing who respect the and have trained hard, and are expecting a potential call up, mentally prepared and have trained hard for just this potentially one off call up.

If you cant see how disrespectful (from the Lions Management) this is coming across, then ok.

And I have no doubt Shane will do a great job as a one off, but that's not the point.

by wales606 Sun 16 Jun 2013, 1:02 pm

And all those wingers played a tough international game on Saturday

We don't want another Ryan Jones, being called up, flown out only to be unable to play because of injury.

by broadlandboy Sun 16 Jun 2013, 1:03 pm

With hind sight yes he should have done something sooner, he had just called up a winger & centre. With hind sight we would not be where we are but in a much better place, however we are where we are for better or worse.

by kingjohn7 Sun 16 Jun 2013, 1:09 pm

I like the look of that backline anyway. Youngs-class, Hogg-ok no experience but a real talent that could suprise, 36-great rugby player, Barrit-complete rock, Wade-electric player just coming into the international scene, Shane-not ideal but cant think of/heard a legit suggestion of who else could play this game, Kearney-one of the best fullbacks in the world.
If we put Sexton in instead of Hogg and North instead of Shane then I wouldnt mind that backline for the test match.

by t1000advancedprototype Sun 16 Jun 2013, 1:15 pm

Has anyone noticed the genius of Gatland behind this?

6 days till the first test and it's almost a media lockdown and everyone is talking about williams.

The test XV are getting peace and quiet and the big boys are getting over their injuries without hassle and pressure.

Bravo Gatland curveball.

by SecretFly Sun 16 Jun 2013, 1:21 pm

The people that matter won't be distracted by any curve balls - namely the Aussie team.

The only benefit now if that they have less forewarning of just which backs they'll be meeting come the first test. Will it be the fit guys or the guys who have the wonky fingers, knees, and old age bones? Wink

by **George Carlin** Sun 16 Jun 2013, 1:27 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:George,

Nothing alleged about it, its all true. A family member played against him often through the 70 and came to know him well, which for me as a kid in the 70s was great as I got to sit and listen to my hero talk about tours and what they got upto.

You've got to love him. Those were the days. Ale

by GLove39 Sun 16 Jun 2013, 1:28 pm

Speaking of curveballs it's quite cunning from Gatland, as calling up Williams should give the Western Mail something to focus on other than the Tokyo game

by Guest Sun 16 Jun 2013, 2:02 pm

George Carlin wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:How do you know that? Hong Kong was a wee while ago anyway and I'm sure he can train hard enough to knock a few heavy beer sessions out of his system. The Barbarians used to manage a boozy week and a game on a Saturday.
If you were JPR, you barely stopped drinking long enough to start the warm up. Allegedly.

My favourite time of the year used to be Kinloss Presidents' Day and a big Friday warm up, a couple of Guinness' pre match warm up and a whisky whenever you used to inevitably mess up.

I would probably have fancied a brief go at JPR's build up. Sounds legendary.

by hugehandoff Sun 16 Jun 2013, 2:08 pm

Stuart Barnes now called up! Has he still got his acceleration? mo2

by The Saint Sun 16 Jun 2013, 2:27 pm

A retired Shane is still better than Chris Ashton, this proves it Laugh

.

by Looseheaded Sun 16 Jun 2013, 2:42 pm

But what happens when Shane tears the opposition to pieces and single handedly wins the match?

SHANE TO START FIRST TEST

by SecretFly Sun 16 Jun 2013, 3:12 pm

Looseheaded wrote:But what happens when Shane tears the opposition to pieces and single handedly wins the match?

SHANE TO START FIRST TEST

Well that's the way it's been going up to now - can't see it changing now.

Every game brings with it the next line of absolute dead-cert starters. Between all the games now, and the champions of players who've played them, the Lions will win against Australia far too easily...unless the ref realises there are 22 players in the Lions team.

by robbo277 Sun 16 Jun 2013, 3:21 pm

I heard Williams was already in Australia anyway because of TV commitments, so he's available to just put his boots on and run out with the guys. It would be hard for anyone else to make it in time. I assume there is positive news about North and/or Bowe's recovery that we only need a short-term replacement, and Gatland doesn't want to bloat the squad at this late stage unnecessarily.

by The Bachelor Sun 16 Jun 2013, 4:11 pm

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:I don't see the big deal. He's only being brought in for Tuesday's game so other wingers can be rested.

It makes sense for him to fill in for a game as the squad is getting so battered. We don't want any more injuries to key players.

Agreed. Maybe Gatland should have had the foresight to call up a replacement earlier, but if someone took a knock yesterday then I don't really see what else he could have done outside of building a time machine and going back to tell himself not go up a ladder cleaning windows.

by glamorganalun Sun 16 Jun 2013, 5:02 pm

What worries me about the test starters, they are not playing on Tuesday and the bench for Tuesday is the bench for the test. Does this mean Maitland (Gatland's buddy) is likely to start the test next week or, was he was so poor on Sat he did not want to include him for Tuesday hence called in a decent wing in Williams. Maitland could play on Tuesday as he put in so little effort on Sat and there would be no need for Williams.

I prefer Zebo to start if there are injuries to North or Cuthbert not Maitland for me.

by offload Sun 16 Jun 2013, 5:58 pm

Even if a different player had left this morning (Sunday) from Europe, Africa or South America they would not have arrived until late Monday. Knackered, and too late to train. With this in mind, this might be a decent decision given Williams was already in Australia.

HOWEVER - that we reached this situation is a concern and suggests very poor planning and no anticipation. If it doesn't devalue the Lions it certainly leaves a nasty taste.

by The Great Aukster Sun 16 Jun 2013, 6:25 pm

The back three situation has improved since Saturday as Kearney has come through at least a bit of a game - yet Gatland suddenly realises he hasn't enough wing cover!! He should have sent out the call much earlier.

Given that only two players have gone home and eight have been called up it is obvious that Gatland was hedging his bets with selection and always intended to add to the squad rather than replace the injured. The implication of this strategy is that every nation will be looking to tour Australia in 2017 to give their players the best chance of getting called up!

by SecretFly Sun 16 Jun 2013, 6:45 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:The back three situation has improved since Saturday as Kearney has come through at least a bit of a game - yet Gatland suddenly realises he hasn't enough wing cover!! He should have sent out the call much earlier.

Given that only two players have gone home and eight have been called up it is obvious that Gatland was hedging his bets with selection and always intended to add to the squad rather than replace the injured. The implication of this strategy is that every nation will be looking to tour Australia in 2017 to give their players the best chance of getting called up!

I think if the Nations are touring Australia then, they'll be looking to give themselves the best crack at them....meaning "Hands off our players, ....[fill in who y'all think will be Lions coach at that point]" Wink

by patersonismyhero Sun 16 Jun 2013, 6:52 pm

I think the problem has been in Gatland's cover strategy. The mere fact that he has "had" to find a man to put his boots on at 48 hours' notice means he didn't exactly plan his squad particularly well. It sounds like there are plenty of people that 'could' play but he doesn't want to 'wear them out' ... if he knew this was how he was going to feel he might have wanted to call up any amount of non-retired wingers from the Ireland, England, Scotland or Wales squads a week ago.

In terms of someone being able to play now who is not "last game" Shane, Tim Visser didn't play this weekend and I'm sure would have done a good job. I can see why Gatland wouldn't rate him, but then I can't objectively see why picking Shane is any better of an idea apart from that GATLAND knows him. A flight from South Africa and jet lag to me is not as bad as NOT HAVING PLAYED HIGH QUALITY RUGBY FOR 18 MONTHS.

Given more notice and being able to be pulled from the SA test, and this is not a WUM, I'd have suggested Sean Lamont would have done a better job than Visser or Williams. Again, seriously not a WUM.

Just from a Scots' perspective, Barritt over Scott and Williams over Visser (in this last second decision) really makes me not want to support the tests when they come along. It's just becoming too much now. I know we have to start winning more to be noticed, but you'd have hoped a coach of Gatland's caliber could be unbiased.

I wonder, by the way, whether this is a press move by Gatland, planned perfectly, to take the heat off of the upcoming test?

by 509boy Sun 16 Jun 2013, 6:59 pm

We seem to think it's a combination of not being involved in international rugby in the last 24 hours, being able to get here quickly easily and allowing certain players plenty of rest before game 1.
There seemed to be a bit of bad feeling from one Australian supporter in the pub tonight, but as highlighted to him it's not as if an old questionable player has been fielded by an Australian outfit this tour.
I think Gatland is playing games here, all focus has become about Williams, and talk of Wade and Barritt is non existent, and strangely the big discussions of injury and test teams seem to have died today too.

by **George Carlin** Sun 16 Jun 2013, 7:02 pm

It was like a Scooby Doo reveal.

I am assuming that we will also steal three days on the press if Rowntree secretly takes a whoopee cushion into the next press confererence.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 16 Jun 2013, 7:09 pm

Clive Woodward will be delighted that so many here appear to share his view that the initial Lions squad needs to be over 40 strong. That really is the only conclusion to draw when Gatland is being criticized for not replacing injured players regardless of whether they have tour-ending injuries or not

I vaguely recall strident claims from some quarters that The Lions selection should be all about choosing the best players from the Home nations in their best positions. To hear some recent comments, you'd think we needed really needed a squad of utility players instead.

We already know that a bloated initial squad didn't work under Woodward and is probably anithetical to the Lions ethos. It's a fine balance between giving everyone enough playing time, and the sniff of a Test spot, and having enough cover already to hand.

Williams isn't playing on Tuesday instead of some other new call-up. There's no time to get anyone over. Williams is just appearing as handy, available ballast to save one of the existing squad turning out again.

To be honest, I'm surprised more active players didn't head out to Australia to hang around just in case something like this happened. I wrote a piece last year on this after seeing the pragmatic call-ups during the June summer tours.

http://www.theroar.com.au/2012/06/14/advantage-johnny-spot/

by SecretFly Sun 16 Jun 2013, 7:12 pm

509boy wrote:We seem to think it's a combination of not being involved in international rugby in the last 24 hours, being able to get here quickly easily and allowing certain players plenty of rest before game 1.
There seemed to be a bit of bad feeling from one Australian supporter in the pub tonight, but as highlighted to him it's not as if an old questionable player has been fielded by an Australian outfit this tour.
I think Gatland is playing games here, all focus has become about Williams, and talk of Wade and Barritt is non existent, and strangely the big discussions of injury and test teams seem to have died today too.

Those things don't concern Gatland. I hear this all the time - taking attention away from this and that in the media by introducing a new element.

Gatland and his crew have to work through their secrets whether they stay secret or not. And they have to produce a test team in a week, ready or not, half injured or not. Keeping a media lid on North's iffyness, Robert's injury, Bowe's continuing recovery or Bod's jimmer frame, isn't going to impact on how all that has to be sorted out.

And if William's arrival takes the pressure off Gatland and saves him from lying about his test hopefuls; then at the same time it just introduces a whole new headache, which has to be media managed and controlled too. Replacing like with like. There is no bonus in preparations to adding a new 'story' to camp in the guise of Williams, Wade etc.

by t1000advancedprototype Sun 16 Jun 2013, 8:10 pm

I'm so excited for Tuesday it's like we've been given an extra test.

British & Irish legends + Stars of the future vs Brumbies!

Twelvetrees, Wade & Williams... rugbygasm!

by Taffineastbourne Sun 16 Jun 2013, 8:28 pm

robbo277 wrote:I heard Williams was already in Australia anyway because of TV commitments, so he's available to just put his boots on and run out with the guys. It would be hard for anyone else to make it in time. I assume there is positive news about North and/or Bowe's recovery that we only need a short-term replacement, and Gatland doesn't want to bloat the squad at this late stage unnecessarily.

For goodness sake!Please do not start posting common sense.This forum is sponsored by Knicker Twisters R Us and half baked knee jerk reactions are de rigeur.
Gatland is soaring in my estimation.

by SecretFly Sun 16 Jun 2013, 8:58 pm

Hmmm, .... "just putting on his boots" wasn't the criteria used or debated about so hotly back before the Lions even left for Australia...was it?

Nope, back then you had to jump through some pretty tough hoops to please the masses here. You had to be in form for a start. In serious, NH league form, that is. You were required to have your latest 6N passport up to date with its participation stamp on it (Stevens was savaged because he forgot his)

'Hero of Legendary Lore' didn't buy you much credit either as O'Driscoll's end of season efforts (good ones) weren't enough for some purists as he gone an let heself down in the 6N and therefore isn't up to the trials of a Lions tour.

Now all you need is boots, slippers, a toothbrush and a clean pair of underwear and you're in Wink

Gats is havin' a larf...and let him. The Lions is a lovely circus.

by Scarpia Sun 16 Jun 2013, 9:14 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
This opportunity should have been used to give a potential future tourist valuable experience that would have stood them in good stead for the future rather than the aggrandisement of a retired has-been.

And exactly how much valuable experience would a player get by jetting in Monday, playing Tuesday and jetting off again on Wednesday?

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 16 Jun 2013, 9:46 pm

SecretFly wrote:Gats is havin' a larf...and let him. The Lions is a lovely circus.

Would you have preferred an initial tour party of over 40 players?

by Higher_Ground Sun 16 Jun 2013, 9:57 pm

Boys, he wants someone for THREE DAYS. Someone who's been there, and done it. Why would he fly someone new out to Australia for three days, for their first Lions experience, to be then sent packing on a plane home?
Have any of you seen any of the games yet? Do you think the pub sides of opposition that the Australians are putting out against us have any fear of turning us over??

Does anyone really think Gatland is doing a bad job? 5 thumping victories, a harmonious squad, where almost every player is putting their hand up for a test place, and a few tongue in cheek selections to boot.

He was told to go and win a series, not friends.

by SecretFly Sun 16 Jun 2013, 10:06 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Gats is havin' a larf...and let him. The Lions is a lovely circus.

Would you have preferred an initial tour party of over 40 players?

I like it just the way it is...you confuse mirth with sarcasm, rugby Wink

I like the entertainment quality of the Lions...the controversy a second, the melodrama in the media by the minute ..the whole show.

But to return to your point. Better to come clean and bring 40 with you in the first place (and suffer the same criticisms as a certain past coach Wink

) than to pretend you never contemplated as many but bit by bit end up with them all the same.

Plus...my point was you were all talking about what a player would need to do to qualify himself a month or so ago, and now boots is enough ....

Fun Rugbyfan...fun. Smile

by The Great Aukster Sun 16 Jun 2013, 11:48 pm

Scarpia wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
This opportunity should have been used to give a potential future tourist valuable experience that would have stood them in good stead for the future rather than the aggrandisement of a retired has-been.

And exactly how much valuable experience would a player get by jetting in Monday, playing Tuesday and jetting off again on Wednesday?

Some would consider being kitted out in a Lions shirt as an honour and valuable experience - however brief.

If Gatland had been serious about building a squad he would have used that squad for this run out without having to resort to appealing to the gallery for 'anyone with boots'. He either has got it wrong by not having enough viable Test players in the squad or he has enough players in the squad and doesn't know how to use them. Both ways he looks a fool.

by The Saint Mon 17 Jun 2013, 12:00 am

Higher_Ground wrote:Boys, he wants someone for THREE DAYS. Someone who's been there, and done it. Why would he fly someone new out to Australia for three days, for their first Lions experience, to be then sent packing on a plane home?
Have any of you seen any of the games yet? Do you think the pub sides of opposition that the Australians are putting out against us have any fear of turning us over??

Does anyone really think Gatland is doing a bad job? 5 thumping victories, a harmonious squad, where almost every player is putting their hand up for a test place, and a few tongue in cheek selections to boot.

He was told to go and win a series, not friends.

All correct. And winning friends has never been Gatland's strongest trait.

by t1000advancedprototype Mon 17 Jun 2013, 9:00 am

Forwards win tests. I bet Shane Williams has never played with a pack as good as what's currently available on tour.

Imagine the lions pack smashing Australia and a back 3 of..

Halfpenny
Bowe
Williams

Utter devastation!

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