Brian or Conrad?

A wee change from Lions threads.

I watched the All Blacks game against France on Saturday morning and was reminded of just how outstanding Conrad Smith is.

It seems with O'Driscoll and Smith we have been blessed in this generation with possibly 2 of the best ever 13s to ever play Rugby Union.

Who do the 606v2 think is the best 13 of our generation? For me it boils down to a choice between the Irish Grand Slam winning captain who is representing the Lions in his 4th tour and Conrad Smith a WC winning All Black who owns the All Blacks 13 shirt with 63 caps and 23 international tries.

Discuss...

Smith is the most under rated player in the world. The guy is unreal.

Coleman wrote:Smith is the most under rated player in the world. The guy is unreal.

Is he under - rated?

Always seems to me that every where I look rugby fans rate him rather highly.

I see a lot of votes, but not many comments... DISCUSS!!!

I'm not sure they are of the same generation are they?

Smith has definitely surpassed BOD since 2009 as the best 13 around.

Career wise BOD is the best for me due to his longevity and incredible individual displays over such a long period. 

Conrad has played alongside much better players too, whereas BOD has had to drag his teammates to victory on numerous occaisions.

Smith is a genius though, no question.

Jaque Fourie is up there with them.

To say all time is a little far fetched. Sella, Gerber, Guscott, Gibson to name a few are well worthy.

O'Driscoll's greatness transcends just being a great outside centre - he is every bit a warrior as he is a genius and quite frankly he deserved better than Ireland.

Conrad Smith is a very smart guy who tends to make excellent decisions, has great vision, spacial awareness and very good all round skill. He is also mentally very tough, a great pro and team player.

These are all things that Drico also has in abundance. Drico however, at his best was more of a try scoring threat and as a player slightly stronger all round. He has also scored more than double the amount of international tries than Smith has and has a lot more caps.

No question in my mind who the more talented player is.

BOD had some great players around him.... the IRE team was better than ENG in 07.. ENG got to the final though (and not through luck), IRE didn't even get out of the group. To say he deserved better is a little misguided I think.

Fourie is/was excellent but a fair notch or two down from Smith and BOD.

fa0019 wrote:BOD had some great players around him.... the IRE team was better than ENG in 07.. ENG got to the final though (and not through luck), IRE didn't even get out of the group. To say he deserved better is a little misguided I think.

In fairness that was a good team but I guess watching Ireland struggle against France in what his thought to be his last home match really seemed a depressing way for such a legend to finish his career. Thankfully that's not the case.
The Irish team from 2004-7 was good but should have won at least one 6N championship and made the RWC semis but since then BOD has lived on scraps in green and even in 2009 he really dragged us over the line for that slam.

The thing which stops me from thinking that BOD is above a chap like Fourie is the following.

Ireland have had great players over the last decade, yet their record comes short in terms of return on talent.

With the players Ireland possessed 2 QF in the RWC and 1 GS is not great at all.
We all know that cometh the hour cometh the man... top players tend to stand out and make things happen at the big occasions... yet in 07 and 11 RWC's Irelands senior players both failed to step up and year after year Ireland were backed for the 6N, yet only got across the line once.

I just don't buy that he was a great player in a poor team.

You look at the players Ireland have had over the last decade and its been of a very high standard. Blame whatever but when Ireland looks back in 10+ years time on the last decade of Irish rugby I think they'll look back at the period with both great memories but more missed opportunities.

Most Ireland fans will today put Healy, O'Connell, Ferris, O'Brien, Sexton and Bowe in a top 3 in the world position wise.... and I would agree with them. Thats not a poor side.

You could say the same about past years too when BOD has been around.

fa0019 wrote:Most Ireland fans will today put Healy, O'Connell, Ferris, O'Brien, Sexton and Bowe in a top 3 in the world position wise.... and I would agree with them. Thats not a poor side.

You could say the same about past years too when BOD has been around.

Individuals don't make a good side - look at Ireland's results over the last four years and even more so the tired, one-dimensional performances - I think it is fair to say Conrad Smith has had a much more successful, attacking team around him...

I completely disregard the suggestion that BOD did not step up in big games - don't forget 3 Heineken Cups and like it or not Ireland's biggest match of the decade was vs Wales in 2009, he brought Ireland back in to that game and what about his performance in what was probably Leinster's biggest game of the decade against Munster in 2009? If you want an example from a RWC look no further than his one-man show against Australia in 2003. In World Cups, 6 Nations, Heineken Cups he has stepped up - what more do you want? Lions? There's also enough for you to choose from there.

Smith has been better than BOD though it is close. It's hard to judge as I'm not sure if BOD looks better or worse than he is playing for a weaker International side than Smith does. People have opinions on "good player in poor team" that go either way

Their careers don't run in tandem (one has a five year head start).

One of them plays with the Number 1 ranked side in the world (and has been so since Smith began to play for them, with only two minor blips in 2007 and 2009) - the other has played in a very up down side that went as high as 3rd and then slipped to 9th. 

One holds the records as the greatest outside Centre of his generation. (Most appearances, mosts tries for a centre - 7th highest outright in tries scored) -  the other doesn't.

So, when O'Driscoll retires at the end of next season (or before) then we'll wait five years to see what Smith has done in the same timeframe and anwer the question then - always bearing in mind that he's an All Black and O'Driscoll played in a side who has never beaten them.

BOD for me, they are both great in every facet of the game but BOD at his best could do everything Smith does and more. Over recent years though Smith has been the best. J Fourie is up there also, great player. FA yes Ireland have had some great players but not to the same amount as the SH teams. Plus I believe that a big disadvantage to Ireland and Wales is mentally they have not been to the level of SH and England.

Had BOD been an AB, bok would he have got all those caps, all those tries etc?

Probably not... its the flip side of saying Smith or Fourie played in a better team/had better opportunities etc?

Yeah, it's like if Parisse played for a better side, would he have stood out so much? We can never know the right answer so saying BOD played for Ireland as opposed to New Zealand doesn't carry any weight with me at all

fa0019 wrote:Most Ireland fans will today put Healy, O'Connell, Ferris, O'Brien, Sexton and Bowe in a top 3 in the world position wise.... and I would agree with them. Thats not a poor side.

You could say the same about past years too when BOD has been around.

World cups arent about having a stellar 15 players its about having a very good squad. Thats why England sometimes do well, they could put out two good teams whereas Ireland can only ever field one good to very good team.

Guns that Ireland team in 07 was superior to that of England.

Over the last 12years it is BOD for me. One of the best ever for sure

Although Smith and Fourie have been better since 2007. Much would have to do with age and the respective teams they represent.

Fourie is still he Boks No1 who I hope to see return after this stint in Japan ready for RWC2015. A fit and firing F Steyn and Fourie would be my preferred BOK 12/13 pairing. With Serfontein being blooded off the bench.

fa0019 wrote:Had BOD been an AB, bok would he have got all those caps, all those tries etc?

Probably not... its the flip side of saying Smith or Fourie played in a better team/had better opportunities etc?

That's again an implied "but he isn't better because Conrad would have got more caps than him iif BOD was a New Zealander." That's supposition. The records are there regarding the ability of each. Had Conrad Smith been Irish, would he have been able to do enough to replace BOD as chosen centre when BOD was five years in?  

Probably not - as you have to play and practice with what you have around you, and O'Driscoll did as much dirt and grunt as the sweet stuff.  

It's not all just instinct operating in the NZ team, it's clinical drills and set plays that are practiced over and over and honed.  In order to have those kinda brilliant All Black moves down to a tee, you have to have the players in numbers to be able to play those plays around you.  New Zealand players are by the hundreds better all round athletes than Irish equivalents - boths as backs and forwards.  Had Conrad existed in an Irish framework, he wouldn't have had the structures around him to bounce his talents off to such an extent as he has with ABs.

Example, O'Driscoll was tiring of Leinster some years ago.  They were all fluff and no substance.  He seriously thought of moving on to a European club.  But then Cheika arrived to professionalise the Leinster operation and demand more blood, sweat and effort in training from the players who had until that point underperformed, undertrained etc.

The results spoke for themselves in European glory and O'Driscoll was given the ability then to be even more effective as a centre because the players as a whole were given wiser patterns and smart gameplays.  The same argument exists for NZ - their players shine each other's performances because they have rugby theory and practice down to a fine art and from school level train hard and produce serious athletes earlier.

Smith is younger, fitter, stronger, faster now but the outside Centre of his generation?   His end of career tally will give a more accurate assessment...but for now, O'Driscoll holds the positional records.

fa0019 wrote:Guns that Ireland team in 07 was superior to that of England.

Yes the first 15 was but our preparation was disaserous from the start. It began when Ireland played Bayonne in a warm up match. Bayonne just knocked the sh1t out of the Ireland team and punched Drico in the face fracturing his cheakbone. It was clearly a planned tactic as we had France in our group. Drico played the tournament with a fractured cheak bone and was still Ireland's best player.

Eddie O'Sullivan our then coach had a policy of no rotation so effictively the team played every game and were wrecked by the time they played France and Argentina. Furthermore, O'Gara played the worst rugby of his life in that RWC because of personal issues that further tainted Irelands preparations.

Ireland's disasterous WC was the result of dreadful planning and a series of unfortunate events, bad management and a tough group. England by comparison had an easy group.

They did very well grounding out wins v France and Aus but I think their appearance in the final was one of the biggest shocks ever at the World Cup so its ridiculous to compare that ireland team to England.

Would Drico have scored more tries outside Carter and Nonu/SBW than outside ROG and Maggs/Hendo/D'arcy ....... hmmm ..... its only speculation but .....

Fly... BOD has been first choice since 2000 right?

During this time NZ had Umaga up until 05.... and then Smith from then on.

Whether BOD is better then the above is debatable (IMO par on both)... but he wouldn't have been capped as early and when their is competition generally players get benched, tried out to see who is best etc.

Look at Matt Dawson and Kieran Bracken.... neither had a stint of more than 6 or 7 consecutive starts given they were so close in quality and mirrored each others career duration etc.

SecretFly wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Had BOD been an AB, bok would he have got all those caps, all those tries etc?

Probably not... its the flip side of saying Smith or Fourie played in a better team/had better opportunities etc?

That's again an implied "but he isn't better because Conrad would have got more caps than him iif BOD was a New Zealander."  That's supposition.  The records are there regarding the ability of each.  Had Conrad Smith been Irish, would he have been able to do enough to replace BOD as chosen centre when BOD was five years in?  

Probably not - as you have to play and practice with what you have around you, and O'Driscoll did as much dirt and grunt as the sweet stuff.  

It's not all just instinct operating in the NZ team, it's clinical drills and set plays that are practiced over and over and honed.  In order to have those kinda brilliant All Black moves down to a tee, you have to have the players in numbers to be able to play those plays around you.  New Zealand players are by the hundreds better all round athletes than Irish equivalents - boths as backs and forwards.  Had Conrad existed in an Irish framework, he wouldn't have had the structures around him to bounce his talents off to such an extent as he has with ABs.

Example, O'Driscoll was tiring of Leinster some years ago.  They were all fluff and no substance.  He seriously thought of moving on to a European club.  But then Cheika arrived to professionalise the Leinster operation and demand more blood, sweat and effort in training from the players who had until that point underperformed, undertrained etc.

The results spoke for themselves in European glory and O'Driscoll was given the ability then to be even more effective as a centre because the players as a whole were given wiser patterns and smart gameplays.  The same argument exists for NZ - their players shine each other's performances because they have rugby theory and practice down to a fine art and from school level train hard and produce serious athletes earlier.

Smith is younger, fitter, stronger, faster now but the outside Centre of his generation?   His end of career tally will give a more accurate assessment...but for now, O'Driscoll holds the positional records.

That's true. There's some benefits to incumbency as well - had BOD been a kiwi his debut would have come later as Umaga was man-in-posession of NZ's 13 shirt when BOD came on the scene (BOD might have hastened Tana's move to 12, and better still might have given us an excuse to not play Leon MacDonald at 13 in 2003 ). However BOD would then have kept Conrad out for a fair while.

Pete... Leon was only in the side at 13 because Spencer couldn't hit a barn door from 20 paces no? Other than that Leon was a neat fullback. Took a lot of stick for playing out of position in 03.

What is clear is that Smith has been the best outside centre in NZ for 7-8 seasons and BOD has been the best in the british isles for 13 seasons based on this Lions tour to date.

Who was better in their peak? BOD circa 2003- 2007 vs Smith Circa 2010 - present?

I personally think O'Driscoll at his peak was better than Smith is now and that BOD's career over 13 seasons in Europe shades Smith's AB career to date.

The question is not just how BOD would have done for NZ but how Smith would have done Ireland-  in my opinion he wouldn't have had anywhere near the impact and influence BOD, as a player or leader, but thats just speculation I suppose.

Why does one need to be "better" ?  Both exceptional talents.  I have long considered Smith the most complete centre in world rugby - BOD is a legend of the game, no less.  There is less than 3 years between then in age but BOD has played international rugby for 5 years longer and has nearly twice as many caps.  I doubt Smith will have the same longevity. He is 31 now and already has Ben Smith knocking at his door he may not make that many more tests?

Thats the thing offload.... guys like BOD have had remarkably long careers where they have been consistently very good throughout. Some chaps have hit higher levels in specific seasons but can't boast the consistency.

Look at Schalk Burger... less than 70 caps and been first choice openside at the boks since 2004 (capped in 03). He's achieved a lot personally and with the boks in those 70 caps.

offload wrote:Why does one need to be "better" ?  Both exceptional talents.  I have long considered Smith the most complete centre in world rugby - BOD is a legend of the game, no less.  There is less than 3 years between then in age but BOD has played international rugby for 5 years longer and has nearly twice as many caps.  I doubt Smith will have the same longevity. He is 31 now and already has Ben Smith knocking at his door he may not make that many more tests?

Isnt he planning a brief sabattical?

Anyone know if McCaw's sabattical will be over before the AIs? Hopefully it will.

I like the look of this A N Other. He seems to get around a fair a bit. I'm sure I've seen him pencilled in for quite a few line-ups but he never seems to make the final XV.

I guess he keeps breaking down in training.

Anyway, in his absence it's tricky to choose between the other two. Let's hope A N Other stays injury-free and makes this poll easier in the future.

6 months I think Guns... medically advised given he's had a number of concussions recently... his last one he was out for a few mins.

GunsGerms wrote:

offload wrote:Why does one need to be "better" ?  Both exceptional talents.  I have long considered Smith the most complete centre in world rugby - BOD is a legend of the game, no less.  There is less than 3 years between then in age but BOD has played international rugby for 5 years longer and has nearly twice as many caps.  I doubt Smith will have the same longevity. He is 31 now and already has Ben Smith knocking at his door he may not make that many more tests?

Isnt he planning a brief sabattical?

Yes - here's a link.  I think it's a really good thing to allow extended breaks to prolong a career like Smith's.  He could have quite a bit left in him with an easier schedule.

http://tvnz.co.nz/rugby-news/conrad-smith-confirms-end-year-sabbatical-5450241

GunsGerms wrote:Anyone know if McCaw's sabattical will be over before the AIs? Hopefully it will.

McCaw's back training with the Crusaders now - he may well turn out in Super XV in July, and is planning to be back in Black for the 4N

God bless you for not creating another Lions thread. 


I really don't like going into the who is better. I like the Stones but I also have a soft spot for the Beatles. Put a gun to my head BOD is the better individual player. Great strength and agility, unparalleled loosie type play and more likely to break a game open. That said I think Conrad Smith is the better team player. His ability to put a winger into space or his defensive duties. Nonu would be a liability in defence if not for the defensive organizational skills of Smith. BOD has worked with the defensively sound DArcy for most of his career. Smith has had the impetuousness of Nonu.

Maybe BODs brilliance is made more evident because of a perceived need to perform. He carries the burden that something special is required of him because there isn't the same offensive firepower NZ has. Smith has an astonishing win ratio of over 90 per cent. Not even McCaw has that record which to me is a reflection of how integral he is.

Two greats of the modern game. Both have been integral to their respective side's success. BOD to me is the better individual player but Smith is the better team player. That is the best way for me to describe their respective functions in their teams. Win the game you legend as opposed to help us win the game.

PS both are cruel names to call your son.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:PS both are cruel names to call your son.

kiaiahaaotearoa??   look whose talking 

Conrad smith.

As much as i like BOD, i do think that Conrad Smith is lot better player.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Guns that Ireland team in 07 was superior to that of England.

Yes the first 15 was but our preparation was disaserous from the start. It began when Ireland played Bayonne in a warm up match. Bayonne just knocked the sh1t out of the Ireland team and punched Drico in the face fracturing his cheakbone. It was clearly a planned tactic as we had France in our group. Drico played the tournament with a fractured cheak bone and was still Ireland's best player.

Eddie O'Sullivan our then coach had a policy of no rotation so effictively the team played every game and were wrecked by the time they played France and Argentina. Furthermore, O'Gara played the worst rugby of his life in that RWC because of personal issues that further tainted Irelands preparations.

Ireland's disasterous WC was the result of dreadful planning and a series of unfortunate events, bad management and a tough group. England by comparison had an easy group.

They did very well grounding out wins v France and Aus but I think their appearance in the final was one of the biggest shocks ever at the World Cup so its ridiculous to compare that ireland team to England.

BOD was our second best player. The only Irish player that walked away from the 2007 RWC with his reputation intact, indeed, enhanced if it weren't obscured by the malaise of the collective, was John Hayes. He faced 3 excellent scrumaging sides and locked out our ball and prevented France, Argentina or Georgia getting up a head of steam on theirs.

In all the shoite that happened when we had the ball and the media frenzy surrounding the underperformance, his performace (and the front row at set piece in general for that matter) was lost. The over-training of the players had this one positive impact.

BOD is GOD simples.

Nice one offload. 

kia kaha Aotearoa is not a name. It's a philosophy. I play rugby, therefore I am...

I do like Kea. Not the Swedish furniture or the Korean car manufacturer. But the mountain parrot. When people call me Kia I always think of that. Still wouldn't call my child that. But I do like the cheeky little devils: 

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Nice one offload. 

kia kaha Aotearoa is not a name. It's a philosophy. I play rugby, therefore I am...

I do like Kea. Not the Swedish furniture or the Korean car manufacturer. But the mountain parrot. When people call me Kia I always think of that. Still wouldn't call my child that. But I do like the cheeky little devils

OK - I'll call you the smartest parrot from now on. 

Offload is more a philosophy than name too, as in "oi, next time offload the ball you greedy barsteward"

I was never too hot at philosophy. 

My son is called Brian he's hopeless at rugby (mind you he's only 7)

Conrad Smith has a World Cup winners medal. End of story.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Conrad Smith has a World Cup winners medal. End of story.

So does Mike Tindall

Mike Tindall was a good player... yet because England were unable to replace quality with quality he kept in the side for say 30 caps more then his talent suggested.

He was an important player in the RWC in 03. He nullified Mortlock... perhaps the form player of the tournament and perhaps had someone else been in place (Mike Catt), England may not have won the game.

Had he been fit there is no doubt he would have been a Lion in 05. Test lion not so sure but a Tindall-O'Driscoll combination could have worked well.

He certainly wasn't just a lucky guy to happened to have won a RWC winners medal. 

Not in the same league granted but still a good player to be ranked alongside players such as Shanklin, D'arcy etc.

HammerofThunor wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Conrad Smith has a World Cup winners medal. End of story.

So does Mike Tindall

GE is being a bit naughty and parodying the old BBC 606 argument that Wilko was better than Carter because he had an RWC medal and (at the time) DC didn't. Of course now that DC has a medal (despite being injured out of his 3rd RWC) the original argument is moot