Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
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SecretFly
MMaaxx
123456789
offload
aitchw
Pete C (Kiwireddevil)
Bathman_in_London
GunsGerms
thomh
Cyril
GLove39
red_stag
Exiledinborders
Captain_Sensible
funnyExiledScot
sirBiggles
Portnoy's Complaint
21 posters
The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
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Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
1(1) | NEW ZEALAND | 90.08 |
2(2) | SOUTH AFRICA | 86.94 |
3(3) | AUSTRALIA | 86.87 |
4(4) | ENGLAND | 85.76 |
5(6) | FRANCE | 81.59 |
6(5) | WALES | 81.36 |
7(7) | SAMOA | 80.50 |
8(8) | IRELAND | 79.58 |
9(9) | ARGENTINA | 76.67 |
10(12) | TONGA | 76.17 |
11(11) | SCOTLAND | 76.05 |
12(10) | ITALY | 75.08 |
13(13) | CANADA | 72.40 |
14(14) | FIJI | 71.29 |
15(15) | JAPAN | 70.91 |
16(16) | GEORGIA | 67.66 |
17(17) | USA | 67.14 |
18(18) | ROMANIA | 66.18 |
19(19) | RUSSIA | 61.99 |
20(20) | SPAIN | 60.44 |
Last edited by greytiger on Mon 17 Jun 2013, 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
Portnoy's Complaint- Posts : 3498
Join date : 2012-10-03
Age : 74
Location : Felixstowe
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
So does that mean we wont have TMOs at Murrayfield or Rome in the next 6 Nations.
Apprarantly T2 nations dont have to have TMOs, which is why there wasnt one at the Japan v Wales games...
I know they'll have them ... but an interesting point...
Apprarantly T2 nations dont have to have TMOs, which is why there wasnt one at the Japan v Wales games...
I know they'll have them ... but an interesting point...
sirBiggles- Posts : 382
Join date : 2011-08-30
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
Those rankings don't look right. Why are Wales higher than Japan?
funnyExiledScot- Posts : 17072
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 43
Location : Edinburgh
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
Obvious troll is obvious.
A Scotland B side just gave a full SA side a proper run for their money. Ridiculous to consider us a 'Tier 2' side.
A Scotland B side just gave a full SA side a proper run for their money. Ridiculous to consider us a 'Tier 2' side.
Captain_Sensible- Posts : 699
Join date : 2012-05-03
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
Looking at the numbers the groups look like:
Tier 1 NZ out on their own
Tier 2 SA, Aus & England
Tier 3 France, Wales, Samoa, Ireland
Tier 4 Arg, Tonga, Scotland, Italy
Tier 6 Canada, Fiji, Japan
Tier 7 georgia, USA, Romania
Tier 1 NZ out on their own
Tier 2 SA, Aus & England
Tier 3 France, Wales, Samoa, Ireland
Tier 4 Arg, Tonga, Scotland, Italy
Tier 6 Canada, Fiji, Japan
Tier 7 georgia, USA, Romania
Exiledinborders- Posts : 1645
Join date : 2012-03-18
Location : Scottish Borders
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
Except Scotland weren't affected by last weekend's results.Capt Sensible wrote:
Obvious troll is obvious.
A Scotland B side just gave a full SA side a proper run for their money. Ridiculous to consider us a 'Tier 2' side.
Portnoy's Complaint- Posts : 3498
Join date : 2012-10-03
Age : 74
Location : Felixstowe
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
Here's a question. Is it that Scotland and Italy are drifting downwards or are the previous Tier 2 nations climbing upwards.
Samoa, Argentina and to a lesser extent Tonga have showed marked improvements in the last few years and have really come a long way.
Samoa, Argentina and to a lesser extent Tonga have showed marked improvements in the last few years and have really come a long way.
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
funnyExiledScot wrote:Those rankings don't look right. Why are Wales higher than Japan?
Why are you bringing us into this???
Guest- Guest
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
greytiger wrote:Except Scotland weren't affected by last weekend's results.Capt Sensible wrote:
Obvious troll is obvious.
A Scotland B side just gave a full SA side a proper run for their money. Ridiculous to consider us a 'Tier 2' side.
That's irrelevant to the point I was making. In terms of quality, Scotland are not a Tier 2 side. The game vs SA showed that.
Incidentally, Scotland are less than a ranking point away from 9th place.
Captain_Sensible- Posts : 699
Join date : 2012-05-03
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
The rankings really are stupid though, France (who so far this year have lost 6/7 games played) get thumped 30-0 and overtake the 6 Nations champions?
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
I've never taken much notice of this Tier 1, Tier 2 thingamajig.
Where are the cut-off points in terms of rankings for each tier?
Where are the cut-off points in terms of rankings for each tier?
Cyril- Posts : 7162
Join date : 2012-11-16
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
I think the IRB have stopped using the 'tier' word to be honest.
Guest- Guest
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
GLove39 wrote:The rankings really are stupid though, France (who so far this year have lost 6/7 games played) get thumped 30-0 and overtake the 6 Nations champions?
I think it was more Wales dropping below France than France over taking Wales, from a ranking points point of view.
Last edited by Griff on Mon 17 Jun 2013, 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
Guest- Guest
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
GLove39 wrote:The rankings really are stupid though, France (who so far this year have lost 6/7 games played) get thumped 30-0 and overtake the 6 Nations champions?
Because losing to Japan costs more points than losing to New Zealand. It's not that France's ranking has gone up.
Rankings will never tell the whole story - Wales are clearly stronger than France right now, but their form in the second half of 2012 and the second/third string's loss to Japan cost them a lot of points - but as a broad picture they're pretty accurate.
thomh- Posts : 1816
Join date : 2012-01-11
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
Exiledinborders wrote:Looking at the numbers the groups look like:
Tier 1 NZ out on their own
Tier 2 SA, Aus & England
Tier 3 France, Wales, Samoa, Ireland
Tier 4 Arg, Tonga, Scotland, Italy
Tier 6 Canada, Fiji, Japan
Tier 7 georgia, USA, Romania
Not sure how you could consider England to be better than Wales when they were thumped by Wales.
Not sure they are much better than ireland or France either to be honest. For me:
1. NZ
2. SA, ENG, AUS, Ire, Wal, Fra.
3. Samoa, Italy, Scotland, Argentina
4. Fiji, Canada
5. Everyone else.
GunsGerms- Posts : 12542
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 44
Location : Ireland
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
GunsGerms wrote:Exiledinborders wrote:Looking at the numbers the groups look like:
Tier 1 NZ out on their own
Tier 2 SA, Aus & England
Tier 3 France, Wales, Samoa, Ireland
Tier 4 Arg, Tonga, Scotland, Italy
Tier 6 Canada, Fiji, Japan
Tier 7 georgia, USA, Romania
Not sure how you could consider England to be better than Wales when they were thumped by Wales.
Not sure they are much better than ireland or France either to be honest. For me:
1. NZ
2. SA, ENG, AUS, Ire, Wal, Fra.
3. Samoa, Italy, Scotland, Argentina
4. Fiji, Canada
5. Everyone else.
Because luckily the rankings aren't calculated based on one game. You might as well ask how New Zealand are ranked ahead of England considering that England thumped them last time.
thomh- Posts : 1816
Join date : 2012-01-11
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
It's quite possible (probable even?) that NZ and RSA could install England in third spot without England stepping a foot on a playing surface come the new season.
Portnoy's Complaint- Posts : 3498
Join date : 2012-10-03
Age : 74
Location : Felixstowe
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
I posed this question on a thread about Samoa, but again, at what stage do the like of Samoa (effectively no voting rights-lumped in with other PI's) and Argentina (1 vote) get the same rights as the established powers (who have 2), if as in Scotlands case, they are ranked above them and have been for a while?
Bathman_in_London- Posts : 2266
Join date : 2011-06-03
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
GunsGerms wrote:Exiledinborders wrote:Looking at the numbers the groups look like:
Tier 1 NZ out on their own
Tier 2 SA, Aus & England
Tier 3 France, Wales, Samoa, Ireland
Tier 4 Arg, Tonga, Scotland, Italy
Tier 6 Canada, Fiji, Japan
Tier 7 georgia, USA, Romania
Not sure how you could consider England to be better than Wales when they were thumped by Wales.
Not sure they are much better than ireland or France either to be honest. For me:
1. NZ
2. SA, ENG, AUS, Ire, Wal, Fra.
3. Samoa, Italy, Scotland, Argentina
4. Fiji, Canada
5. Everyone else.
But the gap in terms of ranking points between England and France (4.17 rankings points) is bigger than the gap between NZ and SA (3.14* points). Granted that's due to (a) NZ's loss to England, (b) France's woeful 2013 and (c) Wales' struggles outside the 6N but it's still a big gap. The next decent gap between clusters is from Ireland to Argentina (2.9 points), hence EIB's classification.
*3.14? That's pi. Mmmmm pie (sorry, feeble attempt at humour on a Monday. I'll get me coat).
Pete C (Kiwireddevil)- Posts : 10925
Join date : 2011-01-26
Location : London, England
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
Is that custard or apple pi. There's a world of difference you know.
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Where are the cut-off points in terms of rankings for each tier?
Alway one below Wales Cyril - always.
offload- Posts : 2292
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 107
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Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
I'd say the tiers were:
1. NZ
2. SA, Australia, England, Wales
3. Scotland, Ireland, Samoa, Argentina
4. Tonga, Italy, Fiji
1. NZ
2. SA, Australia, England, Wales
3. Scotland, Ireland, Samoa, Argentina
4. Tonga, Italy, Fiji
123456789- Posts : 1841
Join date : 2011-11-13
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
NZ
SA, AUS
England, Ireland, Wales
Samoa, Argentina, Scotland, France
Italy, Tonga, Fiji
SA, AUS
England, Ireland, Wales
Samoa, Argentina, Scotland, France
Italy, Tonga, Fiji
MMaaxx- Posts : 276
Join date : 2011-08-02
Location : New place every week, live between SA, Porugal and UK
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
France continue to be number 1 in the sneeky Rankings.
Last in 6N, two defeats to New Zealand and they go up in the latest rankings. Actually and ironically, their lowly place in the 6N table helped them there.
No I don't find it controversal. I like the rankings - they have no opinions and no bias, just rules and number crunching reason. But I just find it funny to witness France's constant downward trend get an upward blue arrow. Even the colour of the arrow salutes them.
Last in 6N, two defeats to New Zealand and they go up in the latest rankings. Actually and ironically, their lowly place in the 6N table helped them there.
No I don't find it controversal. I like the rankings - they have no opinions and no bias, just rules and number crunching reason. But I just find it funny to witness France's constant downward trend get an upward blue arrow. Even the colour of the arrow salutes them.
SecretFly- Posts : 31800
Join date : 2011-12-12
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
France managed to lose to Tonga before beating England in the World Cup quarters ensuring England lost more (double WC bully bonus) points in defeat.
I'm sure they did all that on purpose.
I blame the Welsh archers.
I'm sure they did all that on purpose.
I blame the Welsh archers.
Cyril- Posts : 7162
Join date : 2012-11-16
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:GunsGerms wrote:Exiledinborders wrote:Looking at the numbers the groups look like:
Tier 1 NZ out on their own
Tier 2 SA, Aus & England
Tier 3 France, Wales, Samoa, Ireland
Tier 4 Arg, Tonga, Scotland, Italy
Tier 6 Canada, Fiji, Japan
Tier 7 georgia, USA, Romania
Not sure how you could consider England to be better than Wales when they were thumped by Wales.
Not sure they are much better than ireland or France either to be honest. For me:
1. NZ
2. SA, ENG, AUS, Ire, Wal, Fra.
3. Samoa, Italy, Scotland, Argentina
4. Fiji, Canada
5. Everyone else.
But the gap in terms of ranking points between England and France (4.17 rankings points) is bigger than the gap between NZ and SA (3.14* points). Granted that's due to (a) NZ's loss to England, (b) France's woeful 2013 and (c) Wales' struggles outside the 6N but it's still a big gap. The next decent gap between clusters is from Ireland to Argentina (2.9 points), hence EIB's classification.
*3.14? That's pi. Mmmmm pie (sorry, feeble attempt at humour on a Monday. I'll get me coat).
Is that a pie, or a stew with a lid?
R!skysports- Posts : 3667
Join date : 2011-03-17
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
Sneakyoffload wrote:Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Where are the cut-off points in terms of rankings for each tier?
Alway one below Wales Cyril - always.
Cyril- Posts : 7162
Join date : 2012-11-16
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
SecretFly wrote:France continue to be number 1 in the sneeky Rankings.
Last in 6N, two defeats to New Zealand and they go up in the latest rankings. Actually and ironically, their lowly place in the 6N table helped them there.
No I don't find it controversal. I like the rankings - they have no opinions and no bias, just rules and number crunching reason. But I just find it funny to witness France's constant downward trend get an upward blue arrow. Even the colour of the arrow salutes them.
I find it weird that France is still 5th despite only winning against Scotland this year. good news is that by playing SA and NZ in the AIs the only way is up
whocares- Posts : 4270
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Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
Their win against Australia by more than 16 probably had them on a higher mark than they should have been on, so they haven't slid as far.
thomh- Posts : 1816
Join date : 2012-01-11
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
It just goes to show it's probably better to beat one of the top 3 than win the 6 Nations.
I. Am. Joking.
I. Am. Joking.
Cyril- Posts : 7162
Join date : 2012-11-16
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
Cyril on 606v2 wrote:It just goes to show it's probably better to beat one of the top 3 than win the 6 Nations.
I. Am. Joking.
dunno if its better or not but maybe more difficult ... as Wales
EDIT : in case my emoticons dont show up...this was a joke as well
whocares- Posts : 4270
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Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
Cyril on 606v2 wrote:It just goes to show it's probably better to beat one of the top 3 than win the 6 Nations.
I. Am. Joking.
It's a joke but................ it ain't. Beating the top three is the cream as your points go up like the bloomin' blaziz...especially if you're useless in the 6N. That's only a theory, BTW, as it hasn't happened that much in practice to be able to give a more solid opinion on it
France have one more chance to try it out.
SecretFly- Posts : 31800
Join date : 2011-12-12
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
Fly wrote:Cyril on 606v2 wrote:It just goes to show it's probably better to beat one of the top 3 than win the 6 Nations.
I. Am. Joking.
It's a joke but................ it ain't. Beating the top three is the cream as your points go up like the bloomin' blaziz...especially if you're useless in the 6N. That's only a theory, BTW, as it hasn't happened that much in practice to be able to give a more solid opinion on it
France have one more chance to try it out.
You don't have to beat any of the top three to gain a big points exchange bonus.
Just some team beyond a dream.
Whilst not losing to weaker oppos.
Hard arithmetic vs subjective 'feel'.
Portnoy's Complaint- Posts : 3498
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Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
greytiger wrote:
You don't have to beat any of the top three to gain a big points exchange bonus.
Just some team beyond a dream.
Whilst not losing to weaker oppos.
Hard arithmetic vs subjective 'feel'.
I know, but let's face it, most often in a ten year period, the SH are the teams beyond a dream. For now.....................
SecretFly- Posts : 31800
Join date : 2011-12-12
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
Nah. Lose to anyone ~10 pts behind you in the rankings and you are going to take a pts exchange hammering. Same for the small fry as it is for the giant salmon.
Portnoy's Complaint- Posts : 3498
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Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
greytiger wrote:Nah. Lose to anyone ~10 pts behind you in the rankings and you are going to take a pts exchange hammering. Same for the small fry as it is for the giant salmon.
Yeah,well it's still more realistic that a SA or AUS might lose to a scotland or Italy than the outlandish idea that Wales could lose to a side like...em, Japan.
SecretFly- Posts : 31800
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Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
In case anyone hasn't played with the point exchange calculator before:
http://www.lassen.co.nz/pagmisc.php
http://www.lassen.co.nz/pagmisc.php
Rugby Fan- Moderator
- Posts : 8155
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Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
funnyExiledScot wrote:Those rankings don't look right. Why are Wales higher than Japan?
Yeh I know what you mean. How are England above Wales?
dragonbreath- Posts : 644
Join date : 2012-03-06
Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
I'd still expect England to smarm their way into the top three on the efforts of SA and NZ.
Gonna be a shoite summer of sport for Oz innit?
Gonna be a shoite summer of sport for Oz innit?
Portnoy's Complaint- Posts : 3498
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Re: Scotland and Italy continue to drift into the definite T2 nations
Something to do with winning the same number of matches in 6N as Wales but not losing virtually every other match .dragonbreath wrote:funnyExiledScot wrote:Those rankings don't look right. Why are Wales higher than Japan?
Yeh I know what you mean. How are England above Wales?
Exiledinborders- Posts : 1645
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