Rowntree for Coach of the Year

This year's coach of the year award is in the bag already. Step forward, Graham Rowntree. He has managed to turn Vunipola from someone who to paraphrase Gatland when picking Corbisiero last week, is a non scrummaging liability into a Lions prop in the space of a week. Well done!
Incredibly dumb decision. If anything Vunipola should be used as an impact sub

Don't worry he's got plenty of grunt behind him....

Oh, at least there's grunt on the bench if the scrum struggles....

What we lose in the scrum we gain in the loose.

Your being pretty short-sighted, if the coaches didn't think they could do the job then they wouldn't be on the tour.

Bit of a kick in the balls for Gray and Evans when a light weight Flanker is seemingly able to do a better job at lock than either of them.

InjuredYetAgain wrote:This year's coach of the year award is in the bag already. Step forward, Graham Rowntree. He has managed to turn Vunipola from someone who to paraphrase Gatland when picking Corbisiero last week, is a non scrummaging liability into a Lions prop in the space of a week. Well done!
Incredibly dumb decision. If anything Vunipola should be used as an impact sub

He didn't call him a liability - he just said he was technically a bit weaker than Corbisiero. Now that Corbisiero is injured, he's seen as next in line.

Don't see what the problem with that is.

And dont forget thats behind Heally and Jenkins aswell...
 
Oh hang on...he's English and its a good opportunity to have another go at an Englishman picking a Kiwi/Tongan/ Welsh man who plays for England....

InjuredYetAgain wrote:This year's coach of the year award is in the bag already. Step forward, Graham Rowntree. He has managed to turn Vunipola from someone who to paraphrase Gatland when picking Corbisiero last week, is a non scrummaging liability into a Lions prop in the space of a week. Well done!
Incredibly dumb decision. If anything Vunipola should be used as an impact sub

Well given he is a technical coach and not a head coach, and he has had a hand in coaching two players from barely starting a club game a year ago to starting a lions test I'd say yes, probably could be up for coach of the year. If you aregument is about selection, go speak to former all black front row and Lions head coach Gatland.

Toadfish.......

You're right, Rowntree and Gatland would not have any experience in the front row, or the scrum and they probably wouldn't have a clue what they're doing in that regards...

.... well they were the forwards and scrum coach in the last tour... how well did that go in the first test?

Difficult to tell but from the video of the 09 tour to be fair on selection you did see a conversation about the front five for the first test where McGeechan was championing a more flexible approach to go out and win the match and play to our style... rather than choose a front five which would compete man for man with them... but perhaps be slightly less efficient around the park.

That assumes that Rowntree and Gatland had other ideas but its an assumption at best.... and therefore not very reliable.

I still think McGeechan took too much out of his 97 tour into 09.... the game had changed by then. Pack mobility, captain choice, even the backrow....all were very similar to 97.

To be fair vinapola has been the bolter of the tour.

Grant is also going to have a good impact.

Gattland doing what he does best making unusal choices. Also lets not forget the gatland is either good eg grandslam or really poor eg 8 losses in a row before world cup

GeordieFalcon wrote:And dont forget thats behind Heally and Jenkins aswell...
 
Oh hang on...he's English and its a good opportunity to have another go at an Englishman picking a Kiwi/Tongan/ Welsh man who plays for England....

He looks Tongan, He sounds Welsh and he plays for England.

Seriously though, he is a very nice bloke, I have spoken to him a few times and he is very likable, he told me he hails from Ebbw Vale's Tongan/Samoan community, the same one as Faletau, I am chuffed to bits for him on this Lions tour, I was a bit dissapointed when he chose England, but there were far to many good loosies in Wales for him to get a decent chance, all the best to him I say, and I hope he creates havoc in the loose on Saturday, one thing you will get from him though is 100%, he will leave absolulty nothing on the field.

He wasn't qualified for Wales. He lost that as soon as he moved away. You can't be eligible for two countries on Residency grounds.

I've seen a quote from him saying he was qualified for Tonga, New Zealand, Wales and England...but he was wrong

HammerofThunor wrote:He wasn't qualified for Wales. He lost that as soon as he moved away. You can't be eligible for two countries on Residency grounds.

I've seen a quote from him saying he was qualified for Tonga, New Zealand, Wales and England...but he was wrong

Who cares I just wish him all the best, he's a nice bloke.

GeordieFalcon wrote:And dont forget thats behind Heally and Jenkins aswell...
 
Oh hang on...he's English and its a good opportunity to have another go at an Englishman picking a Kiwi/Tongan/ Welsh man who plays for England....

I am surprised and disappointed at your comment, GF. You seem a sensible guy normally.
Show me ANYWHERE I have had a go at Vunipola because he is English. Show me ANYWHERE I have accused Rowntree of favouring an "English" player. You can't because I haven't.
What I said was that it was a dumbass decision starting with Vunipola when most people acknowledge he isn't a good scrummager. NOWHERE in there have I made any sort of race/nationality-based comment. It was Gatland who, a week ago, didn't start Vunipola because of his poor technique. All I was doing was sarcastically commending Rowntree for being able to improve someone's scrummaging technique in such a short time.
As for Gatland having been an AB prop, I think it is fair to say that the scrum has evolved a bit since his day so being an ex-prop isn't the be all and end all. Ok he knows more about rugby than all of us posters put together but just because he was a prop doesn't mean he will always make the right decision
By the way, have a look at the BBC pages and see the number of English guys who can't believe Vunipola is starting. Are they all quasi-racist too?

Report this to the mods if you want. I am that peed off with so many people's approach to these boards that I honestly don't mind if I am sin-binned

nathan wrote:What we lose in the scrum we gain in the loose.

Your being pretty short-sighted, if the coaches didn't think they could do the job then they wouldn't be on the tour.

Really so you think that giving away penalties at scrum and giving them a bundle of 3 points is better because he is descent in the loose. OK if Vunipolo gives away 4 kickable penalties from the scrum and they score the 12 point but he then scores 3 tries to compensate for them I will eat my words. But I don't think that will happen.
A strong scrum is the core of any team in world rugby. Without a strong scrum a team will go backwards, not have a steady base and make it a hell of a lot harder to win a game.
The welsh scrum is probably the best in the world because we have Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones and Paul James among our props but Adam is the main strength we have. Trust me if we didn't have Adam Jones we would not have won 3 Grand slams and a championship in the past 8 years.
The main reason Mako was chosen for the tour was because he was expected to come off the bench and make an impact in the last 20 minutes of a game. He wouldn't have been neat that number 1 jersey if Gethin, Cian and Corbs weren't injured, its ridiculous that Grant has been put in the bench because he is such a strong scrummager. Gatland has Grant for his disposal so why the hell doesn't he use him.

InjuredYetAgain wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:And dont forget thats behind Heally and Jenkins aswell...
 
Oh hang on...he's English and its a good opportunity to have another go at an Englishman picking a Kiwi/Tongan/ Welsh man who plays for England....

I am surprised and disappointed at your comment, GF. You seem a sensible guy normally.
Show me ANYWHERE I have had a go at Vunipola because he is English. Show me ANYWHERE I have accused Rowntree of favouring an "English" player. You can't because I haven't.
What I said was that it was a dumbass decision starting with Vunipola when most people acknowledge he isn't a good scrummager. NOWHERE in there have I made any sort of race/nationality-based comment. It was Gatland who, a week ago, didn't start Vunipola because of his poor technique. All I was doing was sarcastically commending Rowntree for being able to improve someone's scrummaging technique in such a short time.
As for Gatland having been an AB prop, I think it is fair to say that the scrum has evolved a bit since his day so being an ex-prop isn't the be all and end all. Ok he knows more about rugby than all of us posters put together but just because he was a prop doesn't mean he will always make the right decision
By the way, have a look at the BBC pages and see the number of English guys who can't believe Vunipola is starting. Are they all quasi-racist too?

Report this to the mods if you want. I am that peed off with so many people's approach to these boards that I honestly don't mind if I am sin-binned

Uh Gatland use to be a Hooker not prop, just saying.

Gatland said that Vunipola wasn't as good as Corbisiero come scrum time... which most if not all people who know rugby is a fair and true statement/opinion... he didn't say he was a poor scrummager even though thats the weak point of his game.

Corbisiero has been the England no.1 since the 2011 RWC, he wasn't picked because he had no game time due to injury... had he been fit this season he would have travelled... perhaps in place of Vunipola, perhaps in place of Jenkins. He's a decent player and up there with Healy as one of the  best looseheads in the NH.

Grant is like Vunipola... in his first test season... remember Grant only got his first cap 12 months ago, Vunipola got in the tour originally because he was deemed unlikely to test and had good overall game which is ok when you're playing against 830-850kg dirttracker packs... rather than 910kg test packs.

Grant is a little less proven at test level then Corbisiero so that may have pushed it towards Mako.

HammerofThunor wrote:He wasn't qualified for Wales. He lost that as soon as he moved away. You can't be eligible for two countries on Residency grounds.

I've seen a quote from him saying he was qualified for Tonga, New Zealand, Wales and England...but he was wrong

Yes that's right you know more than Vunipolo himself. Get over yourself a bit like, I think he knows who is eligible for and who he isn't .

Jhamer - prop or hooker. Makes no difference to me. Both are positions where you get too many head knocks and, in later life, end up talking guff and making bizarre decisions :

Jhamer25 wrote:

nathan wrote:What we lose in the scrum we gain in the loose.

Your being pretty short-sighted, if the coaches didn't think they could do the job then they wouldn't be on the tour.

Really so you think that giving away penalties at scrum and giving them a bundle of 3 points is better because he is descent in the loose. OK if Vunipolo gives away 4 kickable penalties from the scrum and they score the 12 point but he then scores 3 tries to compensate for them I will eat my words. But I don't think that will happen.
A strong scrum is the core of any team in world rugby. Without a strong scrum a team will go backwards, not have a steady base and make it a hell of a lot harder to win a game.
The welsh scrum is probably the best in the world because we have Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones and Paul James among our props but Adam is the main strength we have. Trust me if we didn't have Adam Jones we would not have won 3 Grand slams and a championship in the past 8 years.
The main reason Mako was chosen for the tour was because he was expected to come off the bench and make an impact in the last 20 minutes of a game. He wouldn't have been neat that number 1 jersey if Gethin, Cian and Corbs weren't injured, its ridiculous that Grant has been put in the bench because he is such a strong scrummager. Gatland has Grant for his disposal so why the hell doesn't he use him.

How many penalties did he give away? 1 maybe 2? Didn't they (and I say they as it isn't just mako in the front row) win a penalty at the scrum too? Also why do we need to hear the chestnut that is we welsh are the best in the world. Next I'll be hearing the words "on his day...."

Also the worlds best front row is selected by gatland....

Jhamer25 wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:He wasn't qualified for Wales. He lost that as soon as he moved away. You can't be eligible for two countries on Residency grounds.

I've seen a quote from him saying he was qualified for Tonga, New Zealand, Wales and England...but he was wrong

Yes that's right you know more than Vunipolo himself. Get over yourself a bit like, I think he knows who is eligible for and who he isn't .

The regs are pretty simple.

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:He wasn't qualified for Wales. He lost that as soon as he moved away. You can't be eligible for two countries on Residency grounds.

I've seen a quote from him saying he was qualified for Tonga, New Zealand, Wales and England...but he was wrong

Who cares I just wish him all the best, he's a nice bloke.

Didn't mean anything by it. Just that his eligibility for Wales was taken out of his hands. Personally think the this system should have allowed him to maintain it. There was an article about him attending Wales games with his dad as a kid and it clearly meant something to him.

He does come across as a decent guy and a hard worker. I can see his scrummaging developing massively over the next couple of years.

Injured again, fair enough. But there has been all sorts of digs going on here about the English contingent and it just gets a bit boring.

We all agree Vunipola wouldn't be first choice or indeed in my choice for the lions tour at all, BUT with heally, jenks, and corbs out choices are limited. Mako has been very good so far...not perfect but offers much. And he would have been tested in training v Jones and Cole.

Let's give him a chance

Geordie - I apologise in open forum to you.
I read your comment at work where I can't actually post so by the time I got home, I had had all day to stew on it so knocked out a heart felt but rash reply. I replied then went to the gym where I worked off my frustrations and maybe saw sense.

I certainly don't have any problem with the English contingent apart from Matt Stevens and, indeed, think Gatland has done the right thing by bringing in the Youngs brothers. On the other hand, he has made a mistake dropping Croft. I wouldn't have had a problem had Wade started on tour and had Foden been playing better, I think he would have been a real asset for the Lions (but not if it meant dropping Stuart Hogg!!)

Stevens should never have gone we all agree on that. I'd have taken wood over croft aswell and I wouldn't have.been unhappy with Robshaw but back roe is a strong position

Nothing to apologize for...didn't mean to make you stew at work...

Jhamer25 wrote:

nathan wrote:What we lose in the scrum we gain in the loose.

Your being pretty short-sighted, if the coaches didn't think they could do the job then they wouldn't be on the tour.

Really so you think that giving away penalties at scrum and giving them a bundle of 3 points is better because he is descent in the loose. OK if Vunipolo gives away 4 kickable penalties from the scrum and they score the 12 point but he then scores 3 tries to compensate for them I will eat my words. But I don't think that will happen.
A strong scrum is the core of any team in world rugby. Without a strong scrum a team will go backwards, not have a steady base and make it a hell of a lot harder to win a game.
The welsh scrum is probably the best in the world because we have Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones and Paul James among our props but Adam is the main strength we have. Trust me if we didn't have Adam Jones we would not have won 3 Grand slams and a championship in the past 8 years.
The main reason Mako was chosen for the tour was because he was expected to come off the bench and make an impact in the last 20 minutes of a game. He wouldn't have been neat that number 1 jersey if Gethin, Cian and Corbs weren't injured, its ridiculous that Grant has been put in the bench because he is such a strong scrummager. Gatland has Grant for his disposal so why the hell doesn't he use him.

Vunipola won't concede 4 penalties, let alone 4 scrum penalties that are all kickable. You're arguement has been undermined by the ridiculous extremes you've carried it to.

I think Vunipola was unlucky not to start last week, but Corbisiero's performance justified Gatland's decision. Vunipola has been the form loose-head on tour and deserves to start. If Vunipola is having a mare though, Grant can come on and look to add stability from the bench.

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:He wasn't qualified for Wales. He lost that as soon as he moved away. You can't be eligible for two countries on Residency grounds.

I've seen a quote from him saying he was qualified for Tonga, New Zealand, Wales and England...but he was wrong

Who cares I just wish him all the best, he's a nice bloke.

Didn't mean anything by it. Just that his eligibility for Wales was taken out of his hands. Personally think the this system should have allowed him to maintain it. There was an article about him attending Wales games with his dad as a kid and it clearly meant something to him.

He does come across as a decent guy and a hard worker. I can see his scrummaging developing massively over the next couple of years.

Trust me, I am not lying when I say this, he WANTED to play for Wales, but there are too many players here and abroad who play in his position and he doubted that he could have mad as much of an impact in/for Wales.

Like who Dowlais?

He still has to get ahead of Corbs who alround is a country mile ahead of him, Marler who is working specfically on his scrum work, and Mullan whos move to Wasps should bring him back in to the picture.

Im not saying i dont rate Vunipola...some of his performances the second half of the season were very impressive...but IF he truly wanted to play for Wales then he could have easily done so. I dont buy the arguement that Wales have so many top class LH's that he could challenge.

Lord Dowlais

in your dreams over Vunipola. Had he wanted to play for Wales as much as you said, he would have made himself available to. If the competitions is so high how are their not that many more players from Wales taking his position now? He won a sports scholarship to Millfield.... you don't get that unless you are the top of the class and a future rugby star.

Paul James was fit no? How come Corbisiero, Grant and Court have been called up ahead of him.

Josh Lewsey was Wales crazy when he was a kid by all accounts, even up to the time he went to uni. Ended up playing for England though, shows his desire to play for Wales wasn't as strong as you'd first have thought... probably the same with Mako.

Jhamer25 wrote:...I think he knows who is eligible for and who he isn't .

Steve Shingler didn't know he wasn't qualified for Scotland so there's no reason to believe all players always know their elibility status.

Lets just start, in Wales we have Gethin Jenkins, Paul James, Rhys Gill, Ryan Bevinton for starters, then we have a few others in and around the U21's, look he weighed up his options, Paul James and Gethin Jenkins are the two mainstays of the Welsh setup, and that does not look like changing anytime soon, look, I do not want to name drop or give things away on here, but trust me, he had his chance in England and he took it, it WAS NOT his first choice, but like I said earlier, best of luck to him and all his family, they are all nice people, and I would not begrudge them any sucsess in any guise or form.

Players from a certain club do get a disproportional amount of criticism. That's pretty obvious.

Don't know where this myth that Vunipola can't scrummage has come from. He has done well enough when partnered with Stevens. Another player who is called rubbish.

You would think that Vunipola would get more credit as Stevens is so derided.

Bear in mind Vunipola has had a meteoric rise. You would think a 22 year old prop would get a bit more support. Cole is 4 years older. Grant is 5 years older. Adam Jones and Tom Court are 32.

Why is it always Vunipola and only Vunipola who gets criticised? It's always his fault if the scrum is not functioning properly is it?

Just because Vunipola's strengths are his carrying,tackling and workrate doesn't mean his scrummaging is rubbish. Partnered with A.Jones I don't see why he can't gain at least parity.


I really hope Vunipola proves the criticism wrong as other players from this certain club must all the time.

Other players from other clubs are given the benefit of the doubt when they play badly.

Don't even need to have played for a year and you get hailed as a hero and get picked for the Lions with some players. You get to start tests too!

beshocked wrote:Players from a certain club do get a disproportional amount of criticism. That's pretty obvious.

Don't know where this myth that Vunipola can't scrummage has come from. He has done well enough when partnered with Stevens. Another player who is called rubbish.

You would think that Vunipola would get more credit as Stevens is so derided.

Bear in mind Vunipola has had a meteoric rise. You would think a 22 year old prop would get a bit more support. Cole is 4 years older. Grant is 5 years older. Adam Jones and Tom Court are 32.

Why is it always Vunipola and only Vunipola who gets criticised? It's always his fault if the scrum is not functioning properly is it?

Just because Vunipola's strengths are his carrying,tackling and workrate doesn't mean his scrummaging is rubbish. Partnered with A.Jones I don't see why he can't gain at least parity.


I really hope Vunipola proves the criticism wrong as other players from this certain club must all the time.

Other players from other clubs are given the benefit of the doubt when they play badly.

+1, he is going to be a very good player both for Sarries and England. But sadly I see his chances a little limited for the national jersy as others seem to be infront of him at the moment.

Who is in front of him?

Marler? Based on what exactly?

Corbisiero? He's injured yet again. Can his body stay together?

Who else?

Vunipola is improving all the time.

LordDowlais wrote:Lets just start, in Wales we have Gethin Jenkins, Paul James, Rhys Gill, Ryan Bevinton for starters, then we have a few others in and around the U21's, look he weighed up his options, Paul James and Gethin Jenkins are the two mainstays of the Welsh setup, and that does not look like changing anytime soon, look, I do not want to name drop or give things away on here, but trust me, he had his chance in England and he took it, it WAS NOT his first choice, but like I said earlier, best of luck to him and all his family, they are all nice people, and I would not begrudge them any sucsess in any guise or form.

So back in the day Mako chose England because it was the easier option... nothing to do with getting a sports scholarship at an English public school and then getting his subsequent break with England age grade and club rugby too.

Given Mako was chosen ahead of James, Gill and Bevington then its difficult to argue that they are better players and he was chosen by the Welsh rugby head coach.

Unless you have inside information that the WRU said... "no not interested at Mako, better try England, we don't want you" when he was a early teenager then what you're saying is not very plausible.

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Lets just start, in Wales we have Gethin Jenkins, Paul James, Rhys Gill, Ryan Bevinton for starters, then we have a few others in and around the U21's, look he weighed up his options, Paul James and Gethin Jenkins are the two mainstays of the Welsh setup, and that does not look like changing anytime soon, look, I do not want to name drop or give things away on here, but trust me, he had his chance in England and he took it, it WAS NOT his first choice, but like I said earlier, best of luck to him and all his family, they are all nice people, and I would not begrudge them any sucsess in any guise or form.

So back in the day Mako chose England because it was the easier option... nothing to do with getting a sports scholarship at an English public school and then getting his subsequent break with England age grade and club rugby too.

Given Mako was chosen ahead of James, Gill and Bevington then its difficult to argue that they are better players and he was chosen by the Welsh rugby head coach.

Unless you have inside information that the WRU said... "no not interested at Mako, better try England, we don't want you" when he was a early teenager then what you're saying is not very plausible.

When he had his scholarship, and even when he was representing England at age grade, he was still thinking of Wales. This is not from the WRU, this is from certain people themselves. He managed to break into the English setup and he is where he is now, on merrit and ability, he sees himself as an Englishman now, but all through his younger days right up until his pro rugby career he always saw himself as Welsh/Tongan, he has grabbed his chance with both hands and our loss is your gain.

Corbisiero? He's injured yet again. Can his body stay together?

Beshocked, this is a concern the guys body doesnt seem to be able to cope with his performances.

No doubt if the scrum goes badly it will be Mak/Parling's fault. Don't really enjoy these boards at lions time. Personally I believe the 2nd rowers have far more input on the scrum than many believe and PoC will be a huge miss. Totally unconvinced by Parling AND Grey as scrummagers, Parling just far too small, (yes 6-6 and 17 and a bit clem is too small for a lock, even at good club level) and Grey just strikes me as a back stuck in a 6-10 frame. Adam Jones noted that the young scot could deadlift 200kgs......that's below average for local league locks, never mind international. Never thought I would say this but I think we'll miss not having Ian Evans on the bench and if Nathan Hines had been on tour I'd be much more comfortable with Mako starting....

Personally I believe the 2nd rowers have far more input on the scrum than many believe and PoC will be a huge miss

Ultra, your spot on! This was one of the things that used to be said about Simon Shaw. That him in the scrum was almost like having an extra man.

Gray can only dead lift 200kg? Im hugely surprised by that figure...i have a bigger DL than that.

ultra wrote:No doubt if the scrum goes badly it will be Mak/Parling's fault. Don't really enjoy these boards at lions time. Personally I believe the 2nd rowers have far more input on the scrum than many believe and PoC will be a huge miss. Totally unconvinced by Parling AND Grey as scrummagers, Parling just far too small, (yes 6-6 and 17 and a bit clem is too small for a lock, even at good club level) and Grey just strikes me as a back stuck in a 6-10 frame. Adam Jones noted that the young scot could deadlift 200kgs......that's below average for local league locks, never mind international. Never thought I would say this but I think we'll miss not having Ian Evans on the bench and if Nathan Hines had been on tour I'd be much more comfortable with Mako starting....

All we need to do is hold our own, we will be alright, it is the breakdown where this game will be won or lost and if we have a decent ref, I think we will have the upper hand there.

Mako is a poor scrummager, watch both Sarries HC games post 6 Nations.

With small locks behind him I think it could get ugly.

True ultra though I think Mako will shoulder most of the blame. You are probably right.

Tom Youngs is also quite a lightweight hooker and small too.

reallybored that's a load of rubbish.

Mako scrummages with Brits and Stevens - hardly known as the best scrummagers in the world! With Borthwick generally one of the locks.

I think you'll see a huge improvement to the Saracens scrum if the frontrow is Vunipola,George,Johnston.

Also he was up against Afoa and Hayman. Hardly the worst scrummagers around.

Really Bored,

Wouldnt say he was a really bad scrummager mind. I really dont think he would be Sarries 1st choice LH if that was the case!  

Lets not forget aswell, whilst the Aussie scrum is no where near as bad as everyone makes out, its still not the best around. We have picked a pack that will match theirs in the pack, but one that offers a whole lot more at the breakdown, and when we have the ball in the loose.

True geordiefalcon.

In reallybored's eyes Mako is a poor scrummager because he had a tough time vs Afoa and Hayman. Bit strange as they are two of the best scrummagers plying their trade in Europe....

Plus both players are far older and far more experienced. People seem to forget that Vunipola is only 22. It's been basically his first season for club and country.

I think thats cos Mako looks about 50  

You are so right...Mako, Marler etc they're all rediculously young for props.

And show me someone who wouldnt struggle against Hayman and Afoa....give him a few years...24/25 to learn the tricks of the trade...and he could be a horrible proposition for the opposition. Hopefully Marler will be the same...and that'll give England 3 cracking LH's if Corbs can stay fit.

I don't really understand the young argument. What difference does his age make? If he's not experienced and thereofre not good now, it doesn't matter for games this week that he might be great in 5 years time.

Of course I don't think he's that bad. Plenty of guys cheat in the scrum and it's difficult to tell sometimes.