The reason BOD was dropped

by winchester Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:36 am

First topic message reminder :

Many people are saying hes played poorly, hes paid the price for lack of attacking impetus, hes no longer a force to be reckoned with etc etc

I dont think this is true. Firstly, he hasnt been "poor". But neither has his form merited him undroppable. Hes been excellent in defence and in attack hes been fairly ananamymous. But this is the case with the Lions in general. Some are making him out as the scapegoat. I cant agree. The Lions lack of attacking success starts far earlier than BOD. The pack have not enjoyed nearly the kind of dominance expected. Ball has been slow. The set peice has creaked. The distribution to Sexton is poor. In short, there is no platform or go forward which largely lies with the pack and hasnt been helped by Philips in particular who was poor in the first test. Few Lions have stood out as performing particularly well. Gatlands gameplan wasnt hard to spot and relied on smashing the Aussies with a pack and set peice that was expected to dominate. It hasnt happened at the whole team has been misfiring as a result. BOD hasnt played amazingly, but his function has been largely a defensive one thanks to the way the games have panned out. Hes performed that well.

Next, it is probably incorrectly assumed that BOD was a shoe in for Gatland anyway. His position in the team selected itself thanks to injury concerns and now that there is full compliment of centres available hes been left out. I think people are wrongly assuming its because hes played poorly. He maybe was never an automatic to begin with and Gatland might well have favoured his Welsh pairing with whom he is more familiar with anyway. Now that the pressure is really on, Gatland has retreated back into what he is most familiar with. Trying to overpower the Aussies with a Welsh oriented Lions squad. My concern is it conservative and history suggests both that it hasnt worked in the past and that the Aussies are familiar with it now.

Its difficut to be ambitious on a Lions tour with limited game time and the natural tendancy is to stick with what you know. History suggests a tightish game that Australia will win. BOD is most likely just a casualty of Gatlands overall strategy rather than a player dropped for being poor or past it. To be honest, the Lions play and set up is in its coaches image and Gatland is persisting with the same kind of approach he has thrown at the Aussies time and time again. Other than the Warratahs game, the Lions have been largely unimpressive and their gameplan has failed this far but thanks to fortunate circumstances in the first test where they nicked a win, and a quality goalkicker they are still in the series.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:43 pm

Flyhalf, you are just a more polite and less WUMish Bluesman. I'm not sure if that's a compliment of not!

by GunsGerms Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:46 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I dont blame either centre for their attacking toothlessness- that's clearly on Gatland.

I love this. Excuse me while I mess up all the spreadsheets here at work and blame it on my boss.

There's a distinct lack of credit to the Wallabies' defence on these boards.

The Aussies have defended well but its easy to defend when your opposition do the exact same thing all the time. Where is the creativity, where are the backs moves and licence to have a go? The Lions have used one move and it resulted in a try for Cuthbert. I really have expected Gatland to have more up his sleve that what we are seeing. Davies, to a lesser extent and BOD are largely faultless for the shambles that is our attack IMO. Therefore, Gatland has messed up. Other factors:

In the last test the Lions had very little posession.
Davies has consistently been out of synch with BOD. He has been in front of the ball on numerous occasions as his defense is clearly not as good nor is his passing.

In all honesty it seems to me the wrong guy was dropped. Hopefully Davies proves us all wrong.

by flyhalffactory Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:02 pm

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Flyhalf, you are just a more polite and less WUMish Bluesman. I'm not sure if that's a compliment of not!

Just try to back up my statements with some pretty good analysis.

By the way my centre partnership before the plane took off was 12 Davies 13 BOD, still think it could work brilliantly with the right tactics and playing time. Unfortunately it didn't get the chance to shine

(ps I do take a very slight offence at being called a WUM altho it wont stop me sleeping as I take this site for what it is, as I believe I will never reply unless I am kinda convinced I am right by watching the games). I firmly believe SOB should be in and Farrell should be on the bench, the former because of his versatility and aggression and the latter because of his form as an example, I also have been disappointed with Maitlands overall performance even tho I thought he was the man for a wing slot. What I am attempting to say I would just advocate a player just because they are Scottish bias I try to be impartial at all times

by flyhalffactory Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:21 pm

Submachine wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Submachine wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Flyhalf, I just can't understand what you are seeing on Davies in the second test. Australian TV analysists even pointed it out after the match- maybe the video is on Youtube for you to watch. Time and time again Davies ran incorrect lines and over ran in attack. He was hugely at fault for the try. It is clear as crystal from replays that BOD has O'Connor covered, he pointed for Davies to keep his width and he failed and AAC scored. That cannot be dressed up. I dont blame either centre for their attacking toothlessness- that's clearly on Gatland. But Davies was patently worse than BOD. Worse than that, he was mostly playing at 13 rather than being out of position. Davies was definitely better In the warmup matches but worse in the matches that matter. When elements of the a Welsh media and Welsh rugby legends are questioning the decision you know something is up.

If Gatland wanted to I with something different I would wholly support Roberts & Tuilagi playing together. If the reason BOD is dropped is form then grand. But to keep his partner who he outplayed? It doesn't make sense. Gatland has paniced and gone for what he knows irrespective of form. BOD is an example of this, but there are worse in the team than this.

He most certainly was not at fault for the try. I have actual cut the UTUBE extract and gone through it second by second you can see where BOD was (at the rear middle of the breakdown) and at that point there was a 3 on 2 it was Davies who was screaming for him to get back in the midfield defensive line. He was captain at the time and was trying to drag the exhausted forwards to defend the breakdown unfortunately he was delinquent and unaware of the Aussies potential threat of the outside. Davies was marking his man the Aussie 13 the eventual try scorer, BOD should have been covering the outside line between Davies and Bowe, unfortunately he wasn't there and worse still was not even on the inside of Davies but at the back of the ruck. By the time he realised O'Connor was not marked and there was three Aussies bearing down on Davies and Bowe it was damn well too late. He made the tackle but the ball had already gone to Ashley-Cooper and Davies was in no-mans-land unsure to have gone for O'Connor or hoping that BOD would have made the cover tackle.

He most certainly not much different in the "poor" performance. The stats reveal they weren't that far apart, tackles 12-0 8-3 in favour of BOD means nothing when you realise why Davies made the miss tackles, and ball in hand Foxy made 50% more yardage.

Both played poorly unfortunately it was due to the tactics not the players

I think this debunks your theory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VttNqKXu84o

Tell you what mate.............. view the UTUBE extract 5 seconds before that BOD was behind the ruck and there was a 3-2 aussie overlap. Davies knows that there is a 3 on 2 overlap and attempts to close off the gap. its clear when the ball has gone BOD hasn't hit his man.

The first part is clear: inside centre at pace running flat and you can easily see the GAP that Davies is running into, BOD delays unsure when to pass and the opportunity has vanished into thin air. Poor poor decision making on behalf of BOD.

Second example is almost exactly the same but in a tighter area, Davies running in the I/C centre channel over-runs because the pass hasn't come inside, I cant see how the blame is onto any player there, there were options either side of BOD

By the way do you know who the analyst is, and just three examples, that just about sums up that extract and what its trying to prove.

There was a 3-2 overlap which BOD clearly addressed by getting into the perfect defensive position on JOC before the ball left the ruck. You can see him telling Davies to look after AAC but Davies hesitates and lets in the score. I don't know what point you are trying to make about BOD not hitting his man after the ball has gone. Both BOD and JOC have done their jobs here. JOC has fixed BOD, BOD has covered JOC and forced him to pass rather run. Davies made a tiny hesitation and a try was scored. Credit to Aus for forcing the mistake but the mistake was Davies'.

As for the attacking examples. What I would say is that BOD and Davies are probably too similar. Each expects the other to play more like their usual playing partners which is why both have worked very well with Roberts in the past.

Are you saying the analyst is biased? I don't think he has a monopoly on that to be fair.

Don't attempt to smoke screen this BOD did not make the tackle until JOC passed the ball............ at that point steaming 2 Aussies were within 5 metres of the line. If you re-run the play 3-4 seconds before BOD throws out his digit you would have seen Davies shouting "3-2" when BOD was atempting to pull an exhausted Lydiate into the defensive hole behind the breakdown.

BOD was out of position from the start in fact he should have been outside of Davies marking the try scorer not coming out of the breakdown too late, he clearly wasn't marking POC early enough, didn't nail his man and attempted to suggest to Davies that he had his man which if you view from the other angle is very clear.....He hadn't.

The analyst is blatently one of the most biased I have seen, and the UTUBE extract is cheery cherry picking moments of the match with one specific view. Car crash

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:23 pm

I would never refer to you as a WUM for you certainly aren't. We clearly won't agree on the try. It is clear as day that Davies was caught ball watching and flat footed. It's open and shut really and I cannot see how there is any merit in what you are trying to suggest. When even Welsh analysts suggest Davies was at fault you know something is up.

Unlike plenty of other selections for Saturday I believe Davies can step up and put in a performance.

by GunsGerms Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:28 pm

I agree. Davies is a good player who can play better. He might not be as good as BOD but he is not far behind. Of the two Drico has offered more in the tests IMO, plus 80 caps as captain made him the obvious choice to be captain once Warbs got injured. AWJ only has a cap here and there as captain. Actually I think he has only captained Wales once against Italy?!!? Im sure he will do well but he is probably Wales' third or forth choice captain behind, Warb, Jenkins and Jones so its a very strange call.

by flyhalffactory Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:41 pm

Agree Guys

I am not happy blaming one player for a mistake especially a try.

So lets agree to disagree on the try. The fact of the matter we missed several tackles and had a few silly attempts at clearing our line a good minute or two before that. So lets just say it was a combination of poor play and exhaustion by then.

Hell at least you have a few players in the test 15........ we are billy no mates again Sad

by asoreleftshoulder Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:41 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VttNqKXu84o#t=80s

I don't see how you can claim it's a 3 on 2,look at JoC here.He's directly behind the ruck and is in line with Lydiates inside shoulder.As soon as he starts his run BoD follows him and never loses him forcing him to pass.

by Intotouch Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:44 pm

BOD made one fewer carries than JD but missed no tackles compared to JD missing 3! I just do not see the logic of dropping BOD.

by Thomond Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:48 pm

Davies butchered a try chance and was at fault for the try if that video wasn't enough: http://balls.ie/rugby/tale-of-the-tape-breaking-down-adam-ashley-coopers-second-test-try/

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:49 pm

How about this then, Intotouch: Jamie Roberts has been recalled, and Davies has a better understanding with Roberts, both in attack and defence, than O'Driscoll. It might not be fair, but it's perfectly logical.

If Roberts had been fit all tour, we might well have seen Roberts and O'Driscoll together; but he hasn't been.

by GunsGerms Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:50 pm

I biased but I really thought it would be a no brainer selecting BOD as captain. 4 Lions tours, 80 caps as captain and he has done nothing wrong in either test. He has certainly been more effective than Davies who has made mistakes.

Instead Gatland has apointed AWJ as captain. He has 1 cap as captain v Italy in 2009. 4 years ago. In this game Wales won 15-20 with a try in the 71st minute. They were dire by all accounts. Presumably this is why AWJ has not been captain since.

Not only has the best leader been dropped Gatland has also dropped arguably the second best leader Heaslip who has about 7 or 8 caps as captain for Ireland.

by GunsGerms Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:51 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:How about this then, Intotouch: Jamie Roberts has been recalled, and Davies has a better understanding with Roberts, both in attack and defence, than O'Driscoll. It might not be fair, but it's perfectly logical.

That would be a great arguement if it wasnt already evident that BOD and Roberts can play very well together as per the '09 tour.

by Thomond Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:52 pm

Heaslip was Ireland's captain but he didn't lead us at all, the players were looking to BOD by and large. The guy didn't deserve to be dropped but I haven't seen much of him as a leader. Having said that, it is really hard to gauge leadership unless you're actually in the team, on the pict or in the dressing room.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:54 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:How about this then, Intotouch: Jamie Roberts has been recalled, and Davies has a better understanding with Roberts, both in attack and defence, than O'Driscoll. It might not be fair, but it's perfectly logical.

That would be a great arguement if it wasnt already evident that BOD and Roberts can play very well together as per the '09 tour.

A tour on which they'd had match time together to build an understanding. It's four years since then and you expect them to click instantly in the crucible of a final Test decider?

by **rodders** Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:11 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:How about this then, Intotouch: Jamie Roberts has been recalled, and Davies has a better understanding with Roberts, both in attack and defence, than O'Driscoll. It might not be fair, but it's perfectly logical.

If Roberts had been fit all tour, we might well have seen Roberts and O'Driscoll together; but he hasn't been.

Except for the fact that Davies and Roberts have never actually functioned as a unit for wales either.....

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:15 pm

Well let's hope they do on Saturday, Rodders.

Or should we hope they don't?

by Thomond Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:19 pm

I'm kind of leaning towards no as it will prove what I and many others said coming into the test, when I was derided by the Welsh for saying playing like Wales won't work.

by winchester Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:20 pm

I dont think its true to say that Gatland will be justified pending on the outcome of the last match. The centre pairing could click and the Lions could lose. Equally they could completely misfire but the Lions could get out jail thanks to halfpennys boot, poor Aussie kicking or individual magic from North or Bowe.

I read alot of opinions that base justification on the final result but you can make selection errors and win.

I think Gatland is just being very conservative. He has his familiar gameplan and now when its all to play for he has his familiar faces to enact it. I dont think its personal against BOD. Hes just a casualty of the gameplan and conservative nature. The greater issue which has been sidetracked by everyone focusing purely on BODs contribution is that the Lions have generally misfired and the line, out, scrum and pack in general have not been anything like as dominant as anticipated. This was crucial to the Lions strategy and to be honest none of the backs have really had much of a chance to get on the front foot.

Personally I think it will be more of the same from Gatlands same old strategy and that BODs defensive contribution if nothing else would have been more valuable. Put Davies on the bench annd bring him on if neccessary. Frustrating thing for me as a Lins fan is that Gatland has consistently failed to beat Australia with this, hasnt got the Lions firing despite Australia gifting them the series lead and that instead of the feeling that the final test is a 4 nations effort it feels like Wales v Australia yet again due to the personnel and tactics.

by **LondonTiger** Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:21 pm

Can I just say, at the risk of being shouted at, that I felt the decision to leave out BOD was correct. He put everything he had out there and it was not enough - his body is not up to the task any more.

Again risking a verbal ear-bashing but I feel that his form has not been especially good this season in international - anno domini has an effect.

by flyhalffactory Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:22 pm

Thomond wrote:Davies butchered a try chance and was at fault for the try if that video wasn't enough: http://balls.ie/rugby/tale-of-the-tape-breaking-down-adam-ashley-coopers-second-test-try/

Rubbish Rubbish Rubbish

I will do this one more time (I must be mad but I cannae see a man been so blatantly accused)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQuD6wOePeM

PAUSE IT AT EACH STAGE

3.00 mins - BOD ushers Lydiate into the breakdown. You cant see the Aussies at this stage but Davies is already telling him 3-2. At this point BOD should have race across to the O/C position but doesn't.

3.05 mins - The ball flies out of the ruck and POC is away its quite clear from here that Davies knows that BOD is not face on face to POC so attempts to narrow the angle. BOD hasn't wacked his digit out at this stage

3.06 mins - POC has the ball 7 metres out, BOD will never be running onto him straight and now has to play catch up and tackle him from the side, realises this and raises digit to say Foxy I have got him, the angle clearly shows he hasn't a cats hope in hell of nailing him face on. POC now has options he has space to run a few more metres into the Lions 5 metres line or pass there and then. By now both other Aussies are screaming forward at breakneck speed

3.07 mins - Davies and Bowe are bunched up now as POC steers them into a hole as he still has time to run and wait to offload. BOD still has not reached his man. This is 2-3 seconds since POC has rec'd the ball that's about 4-6 metres in running length. Davies NOW has to make a call

1. leave POC alone and remember this is now at the 5 metre mark and cover Ashley-Cooper who is running like an express train by now, or
2. cover the area between the player with the ball and Ashley Cooper and hope that POC or Ashley Cooper mucks it up

3.08 mins - The GAP is now on as Davies has had to make the call and goes for POC........ BOD still hasn't hit his man and that's probably 6-8 metres since the ball has gone to POC from the breakdown

3.08-09 mins - which is probably 10 metres plus in lineage, POC passes to his O/C whilst our O/C still hasn't nailed him. Davies now is side on attempting to cover POC / Ashley-Cooper in that position he will never be able to keep a player out from 4 metres

3.08-09 mins - Davies attempts to readjust......... no chance. BOD is still in tackle momentum

3.08-09 mins - TRY

Stats will reveal - Davies missed tackle on Cooper, whilst BOD didn't have a missed tackle because technically the ball had already gone before he made contact hence he maintains his 12-0 perfect tackle stat

SIGH SIGH SIGH

Now when you look at the Nano second to make the decision calls it unfair to blame either player, but if we are going to crucifer a player lets get it right.

Defensively unaware

by **rodders** Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:23 pm

No I hope they do Luckless and that the Lions win but I'd be lying if I said that Gatland treatment of BOD won't leave a bitter taste of this tour, victory or not.

Given his burning desire to win a series and the effort hes put in to get into the form and shape he's in to earn a test jersey I think this is a sad way for such a great player to finish.

Its not a one man band though and I hope the lions do it, albeit I don't think Gatland deserves the kudos of being a test winning coach.

by Thomond Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:33 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Thomond wrote:Davies butchered a try chance and was at fault for the try if that video wasn't enough: http://balls.ie/rugby/tale-of-the-tape-breaking-down-adam-ashley-coopers-second-test-try/

Rubbish Rubbish Rubbish

I will do this one more time (I must be mad but I cannae see a man been so blatantly accused)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQuD6wOePeM

PAUSE IT AT EACH STAGE

3.00 mins - BOD ushers Lydiate into the breakdown. You cant see the Aussies at this stage but Davies is already telling him 3-2. At this point BOD should have race across to the O/C position but doesn't.

3.05 mins - The ball flies out of the ruck and POC is away its quite clear from here that Davies knows that BOD is not face on face to POC so attempts to narrow the angle. BOD hasn't wacked his digit out at this stage

3.06 mins - POC has the ball 7 metres out, BOD will never be running onto him straight and now has to play catch up and tackle him from the side, realises this and raises digit to say Foxy I have got him, the angle clearly shows he hasn't a cats hope in hell of nailing him face on. POC now has options he has space to run a few more metres into the Lions 5 metres line or pass there and then. By now both other Aussies are screaming forward at breakneck speed

3.07 mins - Davies and Bowe are bunched up now as POC steers them into a hole as he still has time to run and wait to offload. BOD still has not reached his man. This is 2-3 seconds since POC has rec'd the ball that's about 4-6 metres in running length. Davies NOW has to make a call

1. leave POC alone and remember this is now at the 5 metre mark and cover Ashley-Cooper who is running like an express train by now, or
2. cover the area between the player with the ball and Ashley Cooper and hope that POC or Ashley Cooper mucks it up

3.08 mins - The GAP is now on as Davies has had to make the call and goes for POC........ BOD still hasn't hit his man and that's probably 6-8 metres since the ball has gone to POC from the breakdown

3.08-09 mins - which is probably 10 metres plus in lineage, POC passes to his O/C whilst our O/C still hasn't nailed him. Davies now is side on attempting to cover POC / Ashley-Cooper

3.08-09 mins - Davies attempts to readjust......... no chance. BOD is still in tackle momentum

3.08-09 mins - TRY

Stats will reveal - Davies missed tackle on Cooper, whilst BOD didn't have a missed tackle because technically the ball had already gone before he made contact hen he maintains his 12-0 perfect tackle stat

SIGH SIGH SIGH

Now when you look at the Nano second to make the decision calls it unfair to blame either player, but if we are going to crucifer a player lets get it right.

Defensively unaware

Flyhalf I've watched that try 6 times. People can see different things on film, fair enough but I haven't a clue how you saw that. Ball goes from ruck, BOD raises his hand and does two things, he is saying I have O'Connor (that also means push the feic out because you have no business being here)

You have Joe Tomane, AAC and JOC v Davies, BOD and Bowe. Davies gets his body positioning completely wrong, gets stiff hips and fails to readjust in time, the tackle is missed, largely because of the poor positioning

You say that BOD is covering JOC, so what the hell is Davies doing covering him as well?

Also you give out to BOD for not defending 13, BOD played at 12 in defence and attack for a lot of the game and when you're on the back footb like the Lions were in a scrmable defence for those last few minutes it's a case of get to the line you're covering that spot no matter what.

If tyou want to show your viewpoint by all means go ahead, Microsoft Paint is easy to operate as is taking screenshots, I would be interested to see it, even if I don't agree with it.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:40 pm

It is a sad way for his Lions story to end, no question.

by asoreleftshoulder Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:40 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Thomond wrote:Davies butchered a try chance and was at fault for the try if that video wasn't enough: http://balls.ie/rugby/tale-of-the-tape-breaking-down-adam-ashley-coopers-second-test-try/

Rubbish Rubbish Rubbish

I will do this one more time (I must be mad but I cannae see a man been so blatantly accused)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQuD6wOePeM

PAUSE IT AT EACH STAGE

3.00 mins - BOD ushers Lydiate into the breakdown. You cant see the Aussies at this stage but Davies is already telling him 3-2. At this point BOD should have race across to the O/C position but doesn't.

3.05 mins - The ball flies out of the ruck and POC is away its quite clear from here that Davies knows that BOD is not face on face to POC so attempts to narrow the angle. BOD hasn't wacked his digit out at this stage

3.06 mins - POC has the ball 7 metres out, BOD will never be running onto him straight and now has to play catch up and tackle him from the side, realises this and raises digit to say Foxy I have got him, the angle clearly shows he hasn't a cats hope in hell of nailing him face on. POC now has options he has space to run a few more metres into the Lions 5 metres line or pass there and then. By now both other Aussies are screaming forward at breakneck speed

3.07 mins - Davies and Bowe are bunched up now as POC steers them into a hole as he still has time to run and wait to offload. BOD still has not reached his man. This is 2-3 seconds since POC has rec'd the ball that's about 4-6 metres in running length. Davies NOW has to make a call

1. leave POC alone and remember this is now at the 5 metre mark and cover Ashley-Cooper who is running like an express train by now, or
2. cover the area between the player with the ball and Ashley Cooper and hope that POC or Ashley Cooper mucks it up

3.08 mins - The GAP is now on as Davies has had to make the call and goes for POC........ BOD still hasn't hit his man and that's probably 6-8 metres since the ball has gone to POC from the breakdown

3.08-09 mins - which is probably 10 metres plus in lineage, POC passes to his O/C whilst our O/C still hasn't nailed him. Davies now is side on attempting to cover POC / Ashley-Cooper in that position he will never be able to keep a player out from 4 metres

3.08-09 mins - Davies attempts to readjust......... no chance. BOD is still in tackle momentum

3.08-09 mins - TRY

Stats will reveal - Davies missed tackle on Cooper, whilst BOD didn't have a missed tackle because technically the ball had already gone before he made contact hence he maintains his 12-0 perfect tackle stat

SIGH SIGH SIGH

Now when you look at the Nano second to make the decision calls it unfair to blame either player, but if we are going to crucifer a player lets get it right.

Defensively unaware

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VttNqKXu84o#t=79s

Why don't you look at it from directly behind the play so you can see what really happened.

1.20 on the vid. JoC is in line with the inside shoulder of Dan Lydiate so if BoD went wide as you say should he'd be leaving a gap for JoC on the inside.

1.23 on the vid. JoC has started his angled run and Bod has followed him,Bod is directly in line with him covering the outside arc,again you say he should be wider which is wrong as a defender you alwasy aim to hit the guy with your outside shoulder,if BoD was any wider he'd be vulnerable to being sidestepped.He's now pointing at Davies to cover the next man as he has JoC covered comfotably.

1.28 on the vid BoD is comfortably tracking JoC still and would hit hime at or behind the 5m line so no chance of JoC sliding over but Davies is flat footed looking at the wrong man and leaves a gap for an easy score.

by Thomond Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:43 pm

ASLS sums up my thoughts on the matter which are alson in that article on Balls.ie from above, with pitcures!

by The Great Aukster Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:57 pm

Adam AC deserves some credit for his try! He was the one who pinched a couple of wide yards when Davies was ball watching to get that crucial soft shoulder.

by damage_13 Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:07 pm

2ndtimeround wrote:Damage. How can you seriously say Davies has not played with Roberts when they have been the Wales pairing for quite some time now

they have not paired in this Tour.

that they have before (given Wales's track record vs Aus) makes it even worse.

I hope they do well, and confound impartial expectations, but it does not look good.

Hoping the new-look standing flatter Farrell comes on with Manu. cos its gonna be close and unless we get tries on the board we'll need Farrells kicking if we have trouble getting deeper into their half

by **rodders** Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:13 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It is a sad way for his Lions story to end, no question.

C'est la vie, as great as he is he's never had much luck with the Lions...and on that note I'd like to wish Jon Davies the best for Saturday. He has big boots to fill.

He missed the tackle on Hooper but the fault was a collective one by the lions failing to control possession. Once you get through that many phases of defence and so close to your line then you are under serious pressure. The Lions failure to commit anyone to the breakdown during that period was serious midjudgement too... much better to concede 3 points when you are struggling to defend the gainline in that area of the field...

by GunsGerms Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:25 pm

Do you mean the tackle on AAC?

by **rodders** Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:26 pm

Well yes...I suppose I do Guns....

by Guest Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:28 pm

damage_13 wrote:
2ndtimeround wrote:Damage. How can you seriously say Davies has not played with Roberts when they have been the Wales pairing for quite some time now

they have not paired in this Tour.

that they have before (given Wales's track record vs Aus) makes it even worse.

I hope they do well, and confound impartial expectations, but it does not look good.

Hoping the new-look standing flatter Farrell comes on with Manu. cos its gonna be close and unless we get tries on the board we'll need Farrells kicking if we have trouble getting deeper into their half

Check the Lions v Waratahs line up for the centres.

by flyhalffactory Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:00 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Thomond wrote:Davies butchered a try chance and was at fault for the try if that video wasn't enough: http://balls.ie/rugby/tale-of-the-tape-breaking-down-adam-ashley-coopers-second-test-try/

Rubbish Rubbish Rubbish

I will do this one more time (I must be mad but I cannae see a man been so blatantly accused)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQuD6wOePeM

PAUSE IT AT EACH STAGE

3.00 mins - BOD ushers Lydiate into the breakdown. You cant see the Aussies at this stage but Davies is already telling him 3-2. At this point BOD should have race across to the O/C position but doesn't.

3.05 mins - The ball flies out of the ruck and POC is away its quite clear from here that Davies knows that BOD is not face on face to POC so attempts to narrow the angle. BOD hasn't wacked his digit out at this stage

3.06 mins - POC has the ball 7 metres out, BOD will never be running onto him straight and now has to play catch up and tackle him from the side, realises this and raises digit to say Foxy I have got him, the angle clearly shows he hasn't a cats hope in hell of nailing him face on. POC now has options he has space to run a few more metres into the Lions 5 metres line or pass there and then. By now both other Aussies are screaming forward at breakneck speed

3.07 mins - Davies and Bowe are bunched up now as POC steers them into a hole as he still has time to run and wait to offload. BOD still has not reached his man. This is 2-3 seconds since POC has rec'd the ball that's about 4-6 metres in running length. Davies NOW has to make a call

1. leave POC alone and remember this is now at the 5 metre mark and cover Ashley-Cooper who is running like an express train by now, or
2. cover the area between the player with the ball and Ashley Cooper and hope that POC or Ashley Cooper mucks it up

3.08 mins - The GAP is now on as Davies has had to make the call and goes for POC........ BOD still hasn't hit his man and that's probably 6-8 metres since the ball has gone to POC from the breakdown

3.08-09 mins - which is probably 10 metres plus in lineage, POC passes to his O/C whilst our O/C still hasn't nailed him. Davies now is side on attempting to cover POC / Ashley-Cooper in that position he will never be able to keep a player out from 4 metres

3.08-09 mins - Davies attempts to readjust......... no chance. BOD is still in tackle momentum

3.08-09 mins - TRY

Stats will reveal - Davies missed tackle on Cooper, whilst BOD didn't have a missed tackle because technically the ball had already gone before he made contact hence he maintains his 12-0 perfect tackle stat

SIGH SIGH SIGH

Now when you look at the Nano second to make the decision calls it unfair to blame either player, but if we are going to crucifer a player lets get it right.

Defensively unaware

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VttNqKXu84o#t=79s

Why don't you look at it from directly behind the play so you can see what really happened.

1.20 on the vid. JoC is in line with the inside shoulder of Dan Lydiate so if BoD went wide as you say should he'd be leaving a gap for JoC on the inside.

1.23 on the vid. JoC has started his angled run and Bod has followed him,Bod is directly in line with him covering the outside arc,again you say he should be wider which is wrong as a defender you alwasy aim to hit the guy with your outside shoulder,if BoD was any wider he'd be vulnerable to being sidestepped.He's now pointing at Davies to cover the next man as he has JoC covered comfotably.

1.28 on the vid BoD is comfortably tracking JoC still and would hit hime at or behind the 5m line so no chance of JoC sliding over but Davies is flat footed looking at the wrong man and leaves a gap for an easy score.

Comfortable tracking JOC!!! beggars belief

If that is the case then
HOW THE HELL DIDNT HE TACKLE HIM BEFORE POC PASSED THE BALL. I mean he didn't even get to him before the ball was distributed, Dricco tacked late because he most definitely wasn't ever going to catch him

The point is within those nano seconds players have to make decisions, to blame Foxy when he was always face on face with his opposite number and BOD has to scramble defence out of a ruck when there was no reason at all for him to be there is kinda rich. The tactics were wrong the player tackled themselves to a standstill, BOD and Foxy played under (poor) instructions. BOD and Foxy weren't a million miles away on performance. Its been consistent since the end of the 2nd test that Davies was to blame for the try but the evidence is damning.

by The Great Aukster Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:07 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:Its been consistent since the end of the 2nd test that Davies was to blame for the try but the evidence is damning.

Probably up there with the Horwill stamp?

by GunsGerms Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:07 pm

Completly disagree. BOD always does this. This is how he defends he pushes players wide and choses his moment to tackle the player. JOC was his man and he tracked him. BOD did absolutly nothing wrong here.

Positionally Davies has been all over the place for the two tests and there was no difference here. BOD has been marshalling the defense as he does for Ireland and he indicated to Davies to stay wide. Davies messed up. Its as simple as that.

Look at the Green and Gold rugby video asessment on BOD and how he defends if you arent sure. Its pretty basic stuff.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/lions-threats-and-how-to-counter-them-centres-and-mid-field-attack/

by **rodders** Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:16 pm

OK so...

Attacker A draws defender A ... lets call him Finbarr to avoid bias
Attacker A passes ball to attacker B
Defender A (Finbarr) makes tackle on attacker A
Defender B, lets call him Dai, misses tackle on attacker B and Attacker B scores

Who is at fault Dai or Finbarr?

by GunsGerms Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:20 pm

rodders wrote:OK so...

Attacker A draws defender A ... lets call him Finbarr to avoid bias
Attacker A passes ball to attacker B
Defender A (Finbarr) makes tackle on attacker A
Defender B, lets call him Dai, misses tackle on attacker B and Attacker B scores

Who is at fault Dai or Finbarr?

Gatlands fault I assume?

I blame Gavin Henson.

by asoreleftshoulder Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:22 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Comfortable tracking JOC!!! beggars belief

If that is the case then
HOW THE HELL DIDNT HE TACKLE HIM BEFORE POC PASSED THE BALL. I mean he didn't even get to him before the ball was distributed, Dricco tacked late because he most definitely wasn't ever going to catch him

The point is within those nano seconds players have to make decisions, to blame Foxy when he was always face on face with his opposite number and BOD has to scramble defence out of a ruck when there was no reason at all for him to be there is kinda rich. The tactics were wrong the player tackled themselves to a standstill, BOD and Foxy played under (poor) instructions. BOD and Foxy weren't a million miles away on performance. Its been consistent since the end of the 2nd test that Davies was to blame for the try but the evidence is damning.

He didn't tackle him before he JoC passed because he'd have to be offside to get up that quickly.Look at the video JoC never gets outside BoD he starts about 5 yards inside him actually lined up inside Lydiate and then uses his depth to fix Davies.

by The Great Aukster Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:23 pm

Henson would have kicked that last penalty - see it's Gatland's fault.

by Thomond Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:28 pm

Fly, BOD has always defended like that, it's a basic drift defence, force the guy out. It is largely Davies' fault in my opinion but more importantly it shows that these guys are not communicating at all.

by WELL-PAST-IT Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:55 pm

I would have no problem with BOD being dropped IF Roberts was fully match fit. The reasoning is that he wants to play an established pairing. No problem with that. Roberts last played when 4 weeks ago and then half a game,. How long was it before that did he play he last game?

Roberts is possibly fit, but he cannot of fully trained with a hamstring injury and will not be fully match fit or match sharp. He is playing with a 10 who normally plays it flat, Roberts does not play this way with Wales as they have Phillips at 9 who is too slow to play on the gain line. The Manu / BOd partnership looked the sharpest we have seen on this tour, both are fit, both like a 10 that can play it on the gain line. Logic says.....................................

by SecretFly Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:05 pm

O'Driscoll and Roberts were an established pairing. Gatland knew that, but then again Gatland wasn't choosing the team in SA. Hmmmm.
O'Driscoll and Tuilagi were the most exciting centre unit (potentially) on tour. No go there either.
Sexton and Phillips always work well for Ireland and yeah, at least he picked that familiar unit correctly and left Murray on the bench.

O'Driscoll would have partnered either Roberts or Tuilagi equally as effectively as Davies - at least. And on evidence, he'd have damn well defended much better than Davies.
Gatland picked His BOD not the BOD, and that was the only technical, strategic, tactical thinking in it. He's mine, BOD ain't.

I'm even seriously beginning to think words after the second test might have spoiled a few 'perfect' unions.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:09 pm

I think it is clear that Gatland never had an intention of playing BOD in the tests to begin with. If Roberts had been fit then BOD wouldn't have started the first two tests. Gatland hasn't bought into the Lions process, into the ethos and history which is absolutely astonishing given his role in the previous serious. He has seen this as a Wales (plus) tour built on Welsh tactics which have consistently failed, operated by a side that was picked before they left these shores. The only 'form' players who have been included in the side based on performances are Young at hooker, and ermmmmmmmm, thats it. Thats not to say that some of the rest weren't picked on merit. Adam Jones, POC, Sexton, Davies, North, and Halfpenny all played well in warm up games. Questions about the merit of picking AWJ, Heaslip, Bowe, Lydiate and Warburton have to be asked. The selections of Williams and Court for warmup matches beggar belief. This is Woodward part two. When legendary Lions like WBMcB come out and say they are worried about the ethos of the side and the future of the Lions then you have to sit up and take note.

by winchester Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:45 pm

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I think it is clear that Gatland never had an intention of playing BOD in the tests to begin with. If Roberts had been fit then BOD wouldn't have started the first two tests. Gatland hasn't bought into the Lions process, into the ethos and history which is absolutely astonishing given his role in the previous serious. He has seen this as a Wales (plus) tour built on Welsh tactics which have consistently failed, operated by a side that was picked before they left these shores. The only 'form' players who have been included in the side based on performances are Young at hooker, and ermmmmmmmm, thats it. Thats not to say that some of the rest weren't picked on merit. Adam Jones, POC, Sexton, Davies, North, and Halfpenny all played well in warm up games. Questions about the merit of picking AWJ, Heaslip, Bowe, Lydiate and Warburton have to be asked. The selections of Williams and Court for warmup matches beggar belief. This is Woodward part two. When legendary Lions like WBMcB come out and say they are worried about the ethos of the side and the future of the Lions then you have to sit up and take note.

Unfortunately I think you are right. I think most of the concerns Lions fans had about Gatland, his record against Aus, his selections, tactics etc have been realised. Even if the Lions win the series he will have managed to divide and alienate alot of fans.

by winchester Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:47 pm

I think he has Tuilagi on the bench in case Roberts is off the pace. Its tough to come in to this magnitude of game after an injury and period out. I hope he doesnt lack sharpness but I think Tuilagi will be introduced regardless at some stage.

by flyhalffactory Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:50 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Comfortable tracking JOC!!! beggars belief

If that is the case then
HOW THE HELL DIDNT HE TACKLE HIM BEFORE POC PASSED THE BALL. I mean he didn't even get to him before the ball was distributed, Dricco tacked late because he most definitely wasn't ever going to catch him

The point is within those nano seconds players have to make decisions, to blame Foxy when he was always face on face with his opposite number and BOD has to scramble defence out of a ruck when there was no reason at all for him to be there is kinda rich. The tactics were wrong the player tackled themselves to a standstill, BOD and Foxy played under (poor) instructions. BOD and Foxy weren't a million miles away on performance. Its been consistent since the end of the 2nd test that Davies was to blame for the try but the evidence is damning.

He didn't tackle him before he JoC passed because he'd have to be offside to get up that quickly.Look at the video JoC never gets outside BoD he starts about 5 yards inside him actually lined up inside Lydiate and then uses his depth to fix Davies.

Offside!!!!!!!!!!!! what from a ruck when POC was 15 yards behind the ruck

For goodness sake man......... I have put the extract on here and gone through it second by second.........

HE WAS BEHIND THE FLAMING RUCK WHEN THE THREE AUSSIES WERE LINING UP waiting for the ball to be released from the breakdown.......... HE SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN THERE

SOB I am having a breakdown here

Boll..ks to this I am shutting shop on this little interlude..... you are right BOD was position-ally spot on and didn't pressurise Davies into a defensive no mans land. Davies went for the wrong man and cant tackle for pants. Its all Foxys fault and he should be horsewhipped and branded the guy that lost the second test for the Lions.

Why the hell did we take the useless donkey?, drop him now and reinstate Dricco

by flyhalffactory Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:58 pm

SecretFly wrote:

O'Driscoll and Roberts were an established pairing. Ahem 4 YEARS AGO for four games. Roberts/Davies have started together 29 out of last 36 international games. Based on that scenario there is only one logical conclusion

Gatland knew that, but then again Gatland wasn't choosing the team in SA. Hmmmm.

O'Driscoll and Tuilagi were the most exciting centre unit (potentially) on tour. No go there either.
Very Doubtful they played one game together against a very average side

Sexton and Phillips always work well for Ireland and yeah, at least he picked that familiar unit correctly and left Murray on the bench.
Strewth I cant even reply to that.......... why not just pick the whole Irish 23 then as they all know each other inside out, or why not pick Roberts/Davies based on your argument

O'Driscoll would have partnered either Roberts or Tuilagi equally as effectively as Davies - at least AGREE. And on evidence, he'd have damn well defended much better than Davies RUBBISH.

Gatland picked His BOD not the BOD, and that was the only technical, strategic, tactical thinking in it. He's mine, BOD ain't. Headache now I read that time and time again and it made less sense every time

I'm even seriously beginning to think words after the second test might have spoiled a few 'perfect' unions.

TAXI

by SecretFly Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:00 pm

The point you keep missing, fly..is that [b]yes, BOD should have been there[b].

Not No he shouldn't have been there.

His job is to support the area where an intrusion might come until the threat removes itself to another area of the field. His job is not to stand in a line with his buddies having a smoke in perfect formation. That's textbook rubbish, fly, and you know it.

He did his job at the breakdown and chased after the next assault pointing to Davies as he went, directing him to keep focus on his own man. He (BOD) got his man and Davies was caught watching the slow motion act of BOD doing what he said he was going to do miliseconds before. Davies didn't trust BOD. BOD didn't miss his man. Davies should have trusted BOD.
QED

by flyhalffactory Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:05 pm

SecretFly wrote:The point you keep missing, fly..is that [b]yes, BOD should have been there[b].

Not No he shouldn't have been there.

His job is to support the area where an intrusion might come until the threat removes itself to another area of the field. His job is not to stand in a line with his buddies having a smoke in perfect formation. That's textbook rubbish, fly, and you know it.

He did his job at the breakdown and chased after the next assault pointing to Davies as he went, directing him to keep focus on his own man. He (BOD) got his man and Davies was caught watching the slow motion act of BOD doing what he said he was going to do miliseconds before. Davies didn't trust BOD. BOD didn't miss his man. Davies should have trusted BOD.
QED

Fly (am I talking to myself...... you are not 6 6 and played blindside for 20 yrs are you by any chance?)

The simple fact is did BOD nail his man before the pass went.............. NO.
Davies should never have risked not covering POC, he was on a loser either way, he should never have been put in that situation. It was a defensive nightmare

NO MORE NO MORE.............. I am walking away from this argument

by Submachine Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:08 pm

Flyhalffactory, i must assume by your comments and technical analysis that you have played very little rugby yourself or played a long time ago.
1. You seem aghast that BOD did not make a tackle on JOC before he passed the ball. This is just so basic. You must surely understand that the ball is always quicker than the man. 90% of the time a player is tackled because he wants to take the ball in to contact not because the tackler is super quick and forces him in to it.

2.You seem to think that BOD should have run from the ruck around Davies and into the second chanel on defence. This is why i question your recent playing history or at least exposure to modern coaching. Almost all coaches now employ a pilar and push defence at the ruck. This is where the first defender to an established ruck is the pillar. If there is a three on two to the right of the ruck the pillar will remain in place but the next defender (BOD) steps in to the first defensive chanel and the second defender (Davies) "slides or pushes" one place out. This is the most efficient use of the available defenders with minimum confusion.
You seem to think that a defender should be square to his oposition. This is never the case when using drift defence as the idea is to push the attack nearer to the touchline (the fabled extra defender), narrowing the attacking space and reducing attacking options. Even in open play it is very rare for a defender to line up square on to his man as it makes it very easy to be stepped especially at pace (see samoan tackling of old, amazing when it works but high chance of missed tackles). Even in tight exchanges a player will engineer a tackle from the side as it is the easiest way to bring down an attacker by locking his legs together. Example 1,000,000 Dan Lydiate tackles since 2010.
I realise I probably come accross as somewhat patronising but so do you. I do think you are out of touch with modern defensive strategies. The push defence was brought in to union from league a number of years ago and is employed by probably all professional teams.

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