Support your team.

Lets face it, every supporter has a biased opinion on his own players, but what is important to realise is where it stems from and where it goes.

It starts at your local club, the players you are most likely to walk into in your community, they guy that might even buy you a beer in a pub if you are pleasant enough.

It is the guy that may even have been at school with you or even a few years after you, it is the guy who might even come to your local community church, anyway the point is that is where it starts.

So when you countries national team is selected you have a favour towards your own players and want to see them qualify for higher honours, even if deep down you know one or two that your are punting for selection might not necessarily be the best. That is where the motivation behind your debate and comments come in.

For the most part, we manage to keep it above board, we debate the merits of each player and if we are open minded enough we will allow ourselves the courtesy of accepting the argument made by someone else to rather include their player as first choice.

At this point in time it becomes increasingly more difficult for us to be impartial and our natural defensive mechanism immediately jumps into action when there is any disrespect shown toward one of our players. This is where the problem starts in earnest, at this point we become sensitive and overzealous in our responses which then leads to a to and fro of disrespectful comments.

It is usually first aimed at a player of the opposing supporter's team, it can follow something along the line of, "well your guy can't tackle worth Sh1t" , it is inevitable then that the argument will escalate into personal attacks on each other.

the sad thing is we all know where it comes from, it is born out of loyalty to our own players, but instead of remaining loyal and respectful, we become spiteful and disrespectful.

We currently Lions test to conclude the Australian series, yet the escalation has taken on a new scale where instead of showing respect to Gatland for his decisions, or respect to an Irish Hero who has played way more test than most, it becomes a personal barrage of spiteful comments and retorts.

If the shoe fits, then please wear it, if it doesn't then I would expect you to be in agreement with me. But some of you should be ashamed of yourselves.

You are not letting the Lions down, you are letting your country and yourselves down.

Warren Gatland is the Welsh coach, and he is now the Lions coach, irrespective of results over the past 5 years, irrespective of who can throw the best set of statistics out there in a feeble attempt to show who's country is best, the facts are this is now.

and right now Gatland will do what he believes will win him the third test. He believes in his players, therefor it is only logical that he will select those he believes in, it isn't to give you a slap in the face, it isn't in disrespect to the English, the Scots or the Irish, it is because that is how he believes he will win.

Importantly it isn't for the Welsh supporters (if the shoe fits, wear it) to go all smarting around about whether they are the best or not, it isn't for them to be smug or arrogant, it is for them to be thankful and proud that it is their turn to have the biggest representation in the Lions jersey.

The Lions jersey is one of pride and respect, and (again if the shoe fits wear it) some of you are degrading a tradition older than any of you will ever become. We are all taught to respect our elders, so at least try (if the shoe fits) and be respectful of one of the biggest traditions in our sport.

So do yourselves all a favour, respect thy neighbour, do what your players do, they respect one another, when you fight in the trenches or the rugby field on a regular basis you get to know your opponent, you know his strengths and his weaknesses, when you get the opportunity to play with them, live with them, sleep, eat and travel with them, you learn to respect them even more.

So look within yourself, you can dismiss all of this if you want, that's up to you. But do your countries and your players proud. Show some respect and support your team, they need it.

Thanks for reading.

Thanks Biltong. Good to see you back.

I agree with your post wholeheartedly. But much as it pains me I think the Lions concept is dead (cue people replying to say who killed it, apprtioning blame, etc). Too much hassle for too little return, with too much public involvement now possible (social media, forums, etc). I mean, the chosen players are now getting hate messages straight to their twitter accounts for the whole world to see. When did rugby go all soccer? Time to ditch this concept to spare the players being publicly subjected to vitriol and hate just for being selected in what is meant to be the pinnacle of their careers.

 Biltong - Whilst your post is commendable and I appreciate its aim; I think it misses a lot of what The LIONS are about for many of us. I said 6 months before this tour and I make no apologies for it because its just the way I feel; this feeling is ingrained into my blood, veins and very soul and that is; and I quote, "My interest in the Lions is directly related to the number of welshmen in the team" - I have watched Lions matches with many in and some with 1 or 2 and the innate feeling is very different. When there are a lot of welshmen my heart beats faster and the adrenaline pumps with more energy. When there are few it is often reduced to a side show with some interest. That is not say that I am anti any other country, far from it but it's just the way I feel. When Wales play my biochemisty and autonomic arousal go insane. That is most revealing of course.
 
I'm sure the above is true for many of us on here and if I had little representation in the team, I may have even booked a later tee off time on Saturday. That's life I'm afraid.
 
Good luck to the B&I Lions on Saturday; that will always be the case even without the emotional attachment

Appreciate the sentiment here but I think maybe what you are not factoring in is this.  Supporting your own country is mandatory.  Supporting the lions is optional.  For me it takes something a bit extra to really get you behind the lions, be it some representation from your country, the style of play, characters in the team, coaches whatever.  I won't go into whether this exists for me or not in this tour but just to say it is different to supporting your country.  

Maybe you feel different as for you guys merely being in the same half of the globe seems enough for you to form an allegiance!  (always hated this northern/southern hemisphere cr*p)

It's funny Ruby, I'm the opposite. Well, not the opposite - my heart doesn't beat faster with less welsh players! But I can be just as excited with only a few Welshman or none. Ironically, I have been far more excited and 'into it' for the 2001, 2005 and 2009 tests, but that may just be because I was younger and watching the games in pubs, etc. Part of the fun was watching with Irish, English and Scottish mates in Uni and there was a whole 'togetherness' vibe. I'm not getting that anymore. I think it's been eroded. Not with the players as according to reports the bonding is as good as ever. But amongst fans there's definitely a divide that I think has been exacerbated by social media and the Internet, and the ease with which people can now spread hatred.

Whilst I am fully behind the Lions, I cannot see how they represent our country. It is an amalgamation of national teams - and in some ways not hugely dissimilar to the Barbarians.

How well supported would a SANZAR team be in South Africa if it toured NH with only Australian and Kiwi players?

 

Griff wrote:It's funny Ruby, I'm the opposite. Well, not the opposite - my heart doesn't beat faster with less welsh players! But I can be just as excited with only a few Welshman or none. Ironically, I have been far more excited and 'into it' for the 2001, 2005 and 2009 tests, but that may just be because I was younger and watching the games in pubs, etc. Part of the fun was watching with Irish, English and Scottish mates in Uni and there was a whole 'togetherness' vibe. I'm not getting that anymore. I think it's been eroded. Not with the players as according to reports the bonding is as good as ever. But amongst fans there's definitely a divide that I think has been exacerbated by social media and the Internet, and the ease with which people can now spread hatred.

 
I greatly respect that Griff and in some way I envy you. Good on you mate
 

One of the things that strikes me is a certain sense of hypocrisy on these boards.

Some of the same posters who are saying 'get behind the Lions and trust Gats or you're not a true fan' are the same ones who are still bemoaning the 2005 series. 8 years on.

Having said that, it's only a few people letting off steam on an Internet forum so it's hardly going to be the cause of the rugby being destroyed or the Lions concept being marginalised. The Lions will live or die regardless of a few folk on the web.

A bit of perspective required.

Read this as constructively as I read your comments, Biltong.

I'm personally getting fed up with Southern Hemisphere contributers suggesting how the rest of us should regard an entity that we've been part of a lot longer than most of the Southern Hemisphere guys have been born too.

We know it more intimately than you, our past players have histories with it, we have avidly watched it ...every four years, not just every 12 like most SH observers.

We know the dynamics of these islands from which it emerges.  We know the politics of these islands, we know the culture - intimately.  We know the rhythms and detect vibrations much more acutely than any observer who lives a good few thousand miles away and can only gain knowledge from reading about it and tuning in to the net/TV etc.

We live it, we know it, we know the balances of power, we know when the rhythms are needlessly or carelessly abused.  We play against each other each year through long seasons.

We'll decide what the Lions means to us - each nation onto itself and each individual in each Nation.  We'll decide how to involve ourselves emotionally and by how much.  When to cheer and when to whine.  We'll do it - our way.

Others (outsiders) can look on at the carnage and feel repulsion or disgust.  That's their business - our emotions about an entity that can be at once very emotional and unifying and at other times viciously divisive, is our business.

The whole idea of The British and Irish Lions is that we own it - our reactions and moods matter.  Our reactions and moods keep it alive.  And being told to pipe down is just a little counter-productive as it assumes the brand belongs to the world.  It doesn't.

That's not a personal hit on you, Biltong.  But I'm presenting my view as forcefully as you present yours to emphasise just how sensitive this subject often is.  And in reality, and going on many comments coming from SH posters, I don't think you or your SH colleagues fully, and truly, understand even a sliver of how sensitive The British and Irish Lions gets.  You just simply can't comprehend it until you try it.

As I advised another SH guy recently - don't try it!  You're safer as Individual Nations.

Nicely said Fly. Not sure I agree 100% with you but well written.

RubyGuby wrote: Biltong - Whilst your post is commendable and I appreciate its aim; I think it misses a lot of what The LIONS are about for many of us. I said 6 months before this tour and I make no apologies for it because its just the way I feel; this feeling is ingrained into my blood, veins and very soul and that is; and I quote, "My interest in the Lions is directly related to the number of welshmen in the team" - I have watched Lions matches with many in and some with 1 or 2 and the innate feeling is very different. When there are a lot of welshmen my heart beats faster and the adrenaline pumps with more energy. When there are few it is often reduced to a side show with some interest. That is not say that I am anti any other country, far from it but it's just the way I feel. When Wales play my biochemisty and autonomic arousal go insane. That is most revealing of course.
 
I'm sure the above is true for many of us on here and if I had little representation in the team, I may have even booked a later tee off time on Saturday. That's life I'm afraid.
 
Good luck to the B&I Lions on Saturday; that will always be the case even without the emotional attachment

I Really admire this honesty  Try being Scottish with no test starters since 2001... What's worse from our point of view is this season we had guys good enough to be in there. I'll say no more about it. I love the sentiment of Bilt's post but I suppose I should pity the Welsh more after this series.

After all this will be the last time I ever have to look at Gatland and his style of Rugby and feel compelled to support him/it. The Welsh guys still have to put up with it next season as well.

SecretFly wrote:Read this as constructively as I read your comments, Biltong.

I'm personally getting fed up with Southern Hemisphere contributers suggesting how the rest of us should regard an entity that we've been part of a lot longer than most of the Southern Hemisphere guys have been born too.

We know it more intimately than you, our past players have histories with it, we have avidly watched it ...every four years, not just every 12 like most SH observers.

We know the dynamics of these islands from which it emerges.  We know the politics of these islands, we know the culture - intimately.  We know the rhythms and detect vibrations much more acutely than any observer who lives a good few thousand miles away and can only gain knowledge from reading about it and tuning in to the net/TV etc.

We live it, we know it, we know the balances of power, we know when the rhythms are needlessly or carelessly abused.  We play against each other each year through long seasons.

We'll decide what the Lions means to us - each nation onto itself and each individual in each Nation.  We'll decide how to involve ourselves emotionally and by how much.  When to cheer and when to whine.  We'll do it - our way.

Others (outsiders) can look on at the carnage and feel repulsion or disgust.  That's their business - our emotions about an entity that can be at once very emotional and unifying and at other times viciously divisive, is our business.

The whole idea of The British and Irish Lions is that we own it - our reactions and moods matter.  Our reactions and moods keep it alive.  And being told to pipe down is just a little counter-productive as it assumes the brand belongs to the world.  It doesn't.

That's not a personal hit on you, Biltong.  But I'm presenting my view as forcefully as you present yours to emphasise just how sensitive this subject often is.  And in reality, and going on many comments coming from SH posters, I don't think you or your SH colleagues fully, and truly, understand even a sliver of how sensitive The British and Irish Lions gets.  You just simply can't comprehend it until you try it.

As I advised another SH guy recently - don't try it!  You're safer as Individual Nations.

Fly, thanks for the comprehensive response.

I agree with you the history, relationships that has been built in the British and Irish Isles are your history, you live it and know it better than anyone of us.

However this is about sport, it is about a tradition tat has been a celebration of rugby for more than a century. To disrespect it as some do and to continually attack one another on these boards has to do with every one of us posting here, this goes beyond the Lions, it goes about the mutual respect we should have for one another, whether it is Ireland vs Scotland, or Wales vs South Africa.

It affects us all.

Bilt, I have never attacked posters. If I do attack players I try to do it fairly and use facts and statistics to back up what I am saying rather than just throwing abuse with no facts to back it up.

My greatest criticism on the tour is Gatland, and his inability to blend the 4 nations who comprise the Lions to become greater than the sum of their/our parts.

As a Lions coach for this reason he has failed all of us and has picked a team he is familiar with rather than picking the best guys for each position.

Without the verbosity of some:the Lions concept is dead.Parochialism holds sway sadly.
The ethos is noble but folk are flawed and one- eyed favouritism appears de rigeur.
Rugby is evolving into Football with a growing minority putting club,region or province ahead of their national side.With this mindset the Lions stands no chance of survival.
It is called progress.

SecretFly wrote:Read this as constructively as I read your comments, Biltong.

I'm personally getting fed up with Southern Hemisphere contributers suggesting how the rest of us should regard an entity that we've been part of a lot longer than most of the Southern Hemisphere guys have been born too.

We know it more intimately than you, our past players have histories with it, we have avidly watched it ...every four years, not just every 12 like most SH observers.

We know the dynamics of these islands from which it emerges.  We know the politics of these islands, we know the culture - intimately.  We know the rhythms and detect vibrations much more acutely than any observer who lives a good few thousand miles away and can only gain knowledge from reading about it and tuning in to the net/TV etc.

We live it, we know it, we know the balances of power, we know when the rhythms are needlessly or carelessly abused.  We play against each other each year through long seasons.

We'll decide what the Lions means to us - each nation onto itself and each individual in each Nation.  We'll decide how to involve ourselves emotionally and by how much.  When to cheer and when to whine.  We'll do it - our way.

Others (outsiders) can look on at the carnage and feel repulsion or disgust.  That's their business - our emotions about an entity that can be at once very emotional and unifying and at other times viciously divisive, is our business.

The whole idea of The British and Irish Lions is that we own it - our reactions and moods matter.  Our reactions and moods keep it alive.  And being told to pipe down is just a little counter-productive as it assumes the brand belongs to the world.  It doesn't.

That's not a personal hit on you, Biltong.  But I'm presenting my view as forcefully as you present yours to emphasise just how sensitive this subject often is.  And in reality, and going on many comments coming from SH posters, I don't think you or your SH colleagues fully, and truly, understand even a sliver of how sensitive The British and Irish Lions gets.  You just simply can't comprehend it until you try it.

As I advised another SH guy recently - don't try it!  You're safer as Individual Nations.

Have to say Biltong, you're a top poster and I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying...but I'm closer to Fly on this. The Lions is ours, whichever way it goes, it'll be our way.

I'm about as wimpy lefty as it gets, I love the idea of the Lions and breaking down national barriers, and I've been pretty dismayed at how it's all turning out. But that's the way it goes. I still think you'll find a lot more people cheering them on on Sat then holding grudges.

Hood, mate I have no problem with the Lions concept or the fact that it belongs to the British and Irish. I also don't have a problem with offering dividing opinion on the subject, what I do have a problem with is the disrespect.

Let me put it this way, I come onto this site to learn about European rugby, I tend to ask many questions, specifically on the club side as there is a lot I don't know. But do you know how utterly frustrating and unpleasant it is to sort out petty squabbles, unpleasant threads and still find a time to sort out the good well reasoned posts between the dribble?

Taffineastbourne wrote:Without the verbosity of some:the Lions concept is dead.Parochialism holds sway sadly.
The ethos is noble but folk are flawed and one- eyed favouritism appears de rigeur.
Rugby is evolving into Football with a growing minority putting club,region or province ahead of their national side.With this mindset the Lions stands no chance of survival.
It is called progress.

... trying not too be too verbose about it, I'll do this in four!
Nothing Parochial about 'International'

Good post Biltong and reply SecretFly, though there's a line I disagree with. "Others (outsiders) can look on at the carnage and feel repulsion or disgust."

Don't think anyone looks on the tour or the Lions concept as such. For me personally I want to win this series more than the RC, but not the RWC. The RC if we suck this season there's always next year, the RWC is still pretty much the top drawer comp imho, but the Lions is every 12 years, it is the best of the British Isle players, there's no hmmm we played them like this last year and hey did this to us so we counter thus etc, so every tour is a whole new series.

Even though as far as I know they are not counted as internationals and have no relevance in the table, I think they are unique games every one of them and i sure want the Wallabies to win this series.

Roll on Saturday.... hopefully dry and sunny!!

I meant feel disgust at the divisions and fighting and bloodshed and vitriol and gangsterism in the 606 Lions posts, OzT

Ah I see, sorry Fly!!

They're not my team.

SecretFly wrote:I meant feel disgust at the divisions and fighting and bloodshed and vitriol and gangsterism in the 606 Lions posts, OzT

You thought that is only because of the Lions?  

Maybe I guess it means more to us in the SH, the Lions tour, then it does to the British and Irish supporters?

SecretFly wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Without the verbosity of some:the Lions concept is dead.Parochialism holds sway sadly.
The ethos is noble but folk are flawed and one- eyed favouritism appears de rigeur.
Rugby is evolving into Football with a growing minority putting club,region or province ahead of their national side.With this mindset the Lions stands no chance of survival.
It is called progress.

... trying not too be too verbose about it, I'll do this in four!
Nothing Parochial about 'International'

Just a matter of scale.

Primarily, welcome back Biltong  

Lastly (as I'm sure that every other poster who's not been on a sabbatical will know), I think that the whole Lions project is now an encumbrance to the home nations.

It's a fluffy reminder of the eternal summers of yore - no more.

OzT wrote:Maybe I guess it means more to us in the SH, the Lions tour, then it does to the British and Irish supporters?

Not sure it means more to us, but it is special to us, it is the only tour apart from the world cup which really creates an atmosphere in your country. There is excitement, lots of getogethers and talk about it, it is tense and exciting at the same time.

I would like to see it changed slightly though.

I believe the tour should only have Saturday matches, and the provincial teams must put out their best players, up until a week before the tests the international players must play as well. this sending out of weaker teams does not make for interesting rugby until the test series arrive.

I can just imagine The Bulls supporters rocking up at Loftus on a Saturday all fired up because they are going to see a real contest.

OzT wrote:Maybe I guess it means more to us in the SH, the Lions tour, then it does to the British and Irish supporters?

Think that you are spot on.
Sadly up here every four years we have a squabble about the size of the slice of the cake that each country has been given. 

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I meant feel disgust at the divisions and fighting and bloodshed and vitriol and gangsterism in the 606 Lions posts, OzT

You thought that is only because of the Lions?  

No, I know your reservations about the whole caboodle, Biltong.  Ireland being a particular one you can't fathom.  But there you go - as I intimated in another post, sometimes we forget we're in a big world when we use the net here and chat to each other and look at the same sites etc.
We're not as alike culturally as perhaps the net gives a misguided impression of.  You listen in and you hear abuse and mud slinging and you think confusion and warfare.  We slide through it knowing exactly where we are, what we're thinking and what we're saying.
Different cultures.  Different methods of communicating.  You should ask some of the SA players up here in the NH, or ask some of the Kiwis.
At first little of it computes with them and then they get it and it all makes sense.

Doug Howlett came to Munster and he says himself he didn't know what hit him as in the dressing rooms, or on the training field, he'd hear guys throwing what he considered to be pretty deep insults at each other.  He said some of the stuff he heard would have led to serious physical fights back home.  But he was amazed that it was all just part of the way the Munster guys communicated.  He learned quickly and it became water-off-a-duck's-back.  He gets it now.  It's not insulting, it's how differing cultures communicate with each other.

That will really need to have a 2 sided Lions squad, the provinicial and the test squad, else will be way too hard for the main players. I agree about weakened sides though, makes a mockery of the game and just becomes a contact practice session for the Lions.

Taffineastbourne wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Without the verbosity of some:the Lions concept is dead.Parochialism holds sway sadly.
The ethos is noble but folk are flawed and one- eyed favouritism appears de rigeur.
Rugby is evolving into Football with a growing minority putting club,region or province ahead of their national side.With this mindset the Lions stands no chance of survival.
It is called progress.

... trying not too be too verbose about it, I'll do this in four!
Nothing Parochial about 'International'

Just a matter of scale.

Nothing to do with scale. International isn't Parochialism. It's four Nations (two distinct Political ones) joining together once every four years. Feeling edgy about the 'union' is undrstandable not parochial.

It's four nations joining together only in name. From the start of this tour the Lions have commited to the Welsh way and haven't tried to encompass any other philosophies. Gatland may win the series but he will lose a lot of Lions fans. The Lions is supposed to be greater then the 4 nations, it feels like Wales at the moment.

As rugby fans, many of us don't attach conditions to our support. For example, I can't image not supporting Wales.  Regardless of how poor they may play, who get's selected, how the buffoons at the WRU or Regions are behaving - I will always support Wales as long as I draw breath.

Although I look forward to Lions tours and follow the games with a passion, I find that I apply more conditions for my affection.  In 97  even with few Welsh representatives I thought the tour fantastic. I struggled in 2005 to get behind a bloated tour that seemed to to have lost too much of what I wanted to see. In 09 we seemed with Geech to be back on track.

With Gatland we always knew what we would get - he has always gone with what he believes is right and I don't question his integrity. I can question his decisions, tactics etc but I think he is a man of conviction.  

When us fans get together every 4 years it is icertainly NOT without conditions.  We want selection on form, a balanced squad, a balanced coaching team, we want our favourite players in the team.  Yes we get behind the boys, but most of us should admit that this only happens if enough of our "conditions" are met.  

If a Welsman was not playing in any test my interest would wain. If a Welshman had not started a test for many series I'm not sure just how important the Lions would be to me.  I never thought I would have this view, but during this series I have started to question the validity of the Lions going forward.  It is a brand that needs to be nurtured. Of course we want to win, but there is more to the Lions than winning because the sum of the parts is critical. With a few substitutions it is possible for the Lions to finish Saturday's test with just two Nations represented on the pitch.  That dosen't feel right.

Perhaps the Lions need to evolve faster in today's world. Perhaps prioritising balanced representation ahead of results? controvercial I'm sure. I'm sick of seeing Willy John's face telling us how special the Lions are. Few things from 40 years ago are special enough not to need to adapt.

Unconditional love is rare indeed.  I have that for Wales but I've realised that I'm more fickle with the Lions.

OzT wrote:That will really need to have a 2 sided Lions squad, the provinicial and the test squad, else will be way too hard for the main players. I agree about weakened sides though, makes a mockery of the game and just becomes a contact practice session for the Lions.

Brilliant! Let's call them the team and the dirt-trackers.
A revolutionary concept is conceived every five seconds.

I think, once again, the media play An Important and negative roll.

This morning under the banner of "JPR would pick even more Welshmen" was a largely balanced opinion where the great Welshman suggested his team would include a couple of Welsh players not selected - along with English, scots and Irish players he would also select.

That headline is just media Wumming to me.

 Fly has it bang on. To assume that this is just a rugby team and we should all jolly along and support it; is naive at best. I would expect others to know how inextricably linked rugby and our personal, social and deep rooted political psyches are.

As the poster above has pointed out, even if Gatland wins he will still not be happy and there will be many like him. How cool is that

Or...media funning?  Sometimes Wumming is what people want.  It's why papers sell.  Like I said, sometimes the divisions are brutally real, sometimes they are there for entertainment.

The SH media are no strangers to the media having fun with divisive topics... it's called fun sometimes.

SecretFly wrote:

I'm personally getting fed up with Southern Hemisphere contributers suggesting how the rest of us should regard an entity that we've been part of a lot longer than most of the Southern Hemisphere guys have been born too.

We know it more intimately than you, our past players have histories with it, we have avidly watched it ...every four years, not just every 12 like most SH observers.

Would disagree with you about 100%. Lions is a 2 way dance, tourists and hosts. I would say that the rugby people I know from SH respect Lions tours as dearly as we do(apart from 606ers).
I for one am happy to hear what they say, especially a Saffer as think they have a special fondness for it.
Also glad you back Biltong:yahoo: 

RubyGuby wrote: Fly has it bang on. To assume that this is just a rugby team and we should all jolly along and support it; is naive at best. I would expect others to know how inextricably linked rugby and our personal, social and deep rooted political psyches are.

As the poster above has pointed out, even if Gatland wins he will still not be happy and there will be many like him. How cool is that

And the difference is he did it in a way where he explained why without being disrespectful to other, just being open and honest.  

kingjohn7 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

I'm personally getting fed up with Southern Hemisphere contributers suggesting how the rest of us should regard an entity that we've been part of a lot longer than most of the Southern Hemisphere guys have been born too.

We know it more intimately than you, our past players have histories with it, we have avidly watched it ...every four years, not just every 12 like most SH observers.

Would disagree with you about 100%. Lions is a 2 way dance, tourists and hosts. I would say that the rugby people I know from SH respect Lions tours as dearly as we do(apart from 606ers).
I for one am happy to hear what they say, especially a Saffer as think they have a special fondness for it.
Also glad you back Biltong:yahoo: 

You don't get the point. I'm involved every four years..intimately. An Australian is involved intimately every 12 years. Call it how you will, our knowledge of what makes the Lions tick is more intimate than an one guy from one SH nation who only gets fully emotionally involved every 12. More frequent flying points means you travel with the club more.

I'll wait until 2017 as to whether to say its outdated or not, but I'm sorry I just can't support this tour anymore I have no interest in it the rugby has been poor and boring not what the Lions is about to me.

Is it too late to draft in SIM ?

Maybe I should have titled it, "support your team or don't, but..."

Support your team especially if some of them get to play in the Tests.

SecretFly wrote:Support your team especially if some of them get to play in the Tests.

'Get to play'

What Gatlanball Bish Bash Bosh Lol....

HIya Biltong,

I think that is a great post which frames out a big part of the discussion. In truth, there is no excuse for the lack of respect being thrown around - disagreements, yes - but respect is important (another of those life lessons we teach our kids, eh mate?). How we express ourselves is a reflection of us, no? It is a fine line between expressing anger or disagreement in a clear manner, and losing the plot. Life has a way of moving us close to that line..........

But there is an odd thing about the Lions. They are our team - they do belong to all of us as long as someone has a drop of English, Irish, Scots, or Welsh blood, and cares about the Rugby. And, as one would expect for peoples shut away and living together on small islands off a continent for a few thousand years, we are a family, a strange, somewhat twisted, argumentative family. Capable of greatness and failure, like most people.

Despite the upbringing of some of us, we are emotional. We will argue as a family will do. But for those 80 minutes, I can promise even the worst curmudgeon amongst us will either under their breath or out loud will cheer for the Lions.

Many people are clearly not happy with the makeup of this last squad. Which goes back to the original squad selection. That much is clear. And this is probably the most extreme reaction I have seen about Lions selection. Regardless, most of it stays here and we will be pulling for the lads on Saturday. Wearing red.

Thanks again for the post. Appreciated, as ever.

Grey

http://www.metrolyrics.com/call-me-irresponsible-lyrics-frank-sinatra.html

The title of the post says it all!

"support your team"

I'm afraid the Lions simply is not my team.

The Lions is supposed to be a team representing the 4 nations. This Lions team does not represent the 4 nations!

I have said it many a time, the Lions coach needs to be neutral! There is too much jobs for the boys going around here! Woodward did it. Gatland is doing it! I am not talking about a division across countries either. I've said all along that Warburton should not be the test 7 (injured now I know) it should have been Tipuric from the start!

I will always support my team. I supported scotland throughout matt williams, frank hadden and Andy robinson!

But the Lions are not my team!

doctor_grey wrote:HIya Biltong,

I think that is a great post which frames out a big part of the discussion.  In truth, there is no excuse for the lack of respect being thrown around - disagreements, yes - but respect is important (another of those life lessons we teach our kids, eh mate?).  How we express ourselves is a reflection of us, no?  It is a fine line between expressing anger or disagreement in a clear manner, and losing the plot.  Life has a way of moving us close to that line..........

But there is an odd thing about the Lions.  They are our team - they do belong to all of us as long as someone has a drop of English, Irish, Scots, or Welsh blood, and cares about the Rugby.  And, as one would expect for peoples shut away and living together on small islands off a continent for a few thousand years, we are a family, a strange, somewhat twisted, argumentative family.  Capable of greatness and failure, like most people.  

Despite the upbringing of some of us, we are emotional.  We will argue as a family will do.  But for those 80 minutes, I can promise even the worst curmudgeon amongst us will either under their breath or out loud will  cheer for the Lions.  

Many people are clearly not happy with the makeup of this last squad.  Which goes back to the original squad selection.  That much is clear.  And this is probably the most extreme reaction I have seen about Lions selection.  Regardless, most of it stays here and we will be pulling for the lads on Saturday.  Wearing red.  

Thanks again for the post. Appreciated, as ever.

Grey

Cheers Doc.

I think the concept of the Lions can be enhanced if there is an agreement that each nation must have a minimum of 4 starters, there is enough quality in each country to at least produce 4 players that whomever the chosen coach is, can work with.

It is as much about the participating as four nations as it is about the winning, eh?

tigertattie wrote:The title of the post says it all!

"support your team"

I'm afraid the Lions simply is not my team.

The Lions is supposed to be a team representing the 4 nations.  This Lions team does not represent the 4 nations!

I have said it many a time, the Lions coach needs to be neutral! There is too much jobs for the boys going around here! Woodward did it. Gatland is doing it! I am not talking about a division across countries either. I've said all along that Warburton should not be the test 7 (injured now I know) it should have been Tipuric from the start!

I will always support my team. I supported scotland throughout matt williams, frank hadden and Andy robinson!

But the Lions are not my team!

Then for you it is an easy decision mate, don't support them.  

1. Howzit Biltong!

2. As for the lions being dead: From a neutral's perspective, I've found the first two tests to be crackers precisely because it's been so close, never knowing which way it's going to go. The second test may have been error strewn, but when two equally matched teams, even equally-matched good teams, meet they often pressure each other into errors.

3. The bickering between the home nations fans has been bemusing. On the one hand SecretFly is right, that SH people who don't fully understand the various cultures won't understand the roots of the conflicts and the connotations implied in various assertions; but on the other hand sometimes an outsider can, in some instances, see some things more clearly, precisely because they aren't immersed in the culture involved....

4. Can't wait for the third test!

Hi Mr. Fishpaste, agree with you both test were enthralling.

The fact is these matches are in most cases very close affairs and always harshly contested.

You aren't easily going to find one of the teams running away with matters and the laws of the game are making space a premium commodity that is in scarce supply these days.

So what people are expecting from this series is perhaps a little ambitious, for that you need smaller guys, bigger grounds, better laws and maybe then you will see wide open running games.