Gatland- one kiwi opinion...

by Taylorman Tue 16 Jul 2013, 1:29 am

First topic message reminder :

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion/8916219/NZRU-need-to-show-some-love-for-Gatland

I came to the same opinion after this series and am also in the same boat as other kiwis that probably didnt follow his career that closely- I mean Connachct, the wasps are hardly anything we'd care about.

So this post is not meant to stir the pot, though some will. For me its now about where Gatland fits in the NZ game, does he now deserve a higher pecking order on the AB list and just as importantly whether NZ deserves Gatland given its cold shoulder in the past.

The reality is, neither owes the other, both (and now many others outside NZ) have benefitted enormously from that that is NZ rugby but I think that by some magical bonding that exists between the AB's and Kiwi's, time will eventually bring the two together...eventually, especially having seen much more of Gatland these last few weeks than ever before.

by Guest Fri 19 Jul 2013, 12:08 pm

Ah, thanks for explaining that rodders. I watch a bit of rugby but don't have a great understanding as i never played or grew up in the environment. Sounds like a sound game plan if you can hold onto the ball.

by **rodders** Fri 19 Jul 2013, 1:28 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:To add to that, the fact that NZ do not have the biggest players in the world suggests that if they are sucked into the power game, they won't be half as effective. The likes of Robbie Fruean would need to be looked at to provide big running options in midfield. The dynamics of the NZ back line would be totally different surely.

The same thing goes for the likes of Australia and France. They just aren't suited to this sort of rugby.

I'm not so sure Rory.

NZ have a similar dynamic in that they often have a big man at 12 (Nonu/SBW) and on the wings (Gear, Savea,Ranger).

The backline get them on the front foot and a fetching 7 alongside a mobile backrow secures quick ball.

NZ like to kick more and play off the counter attack ball though, whereas Gats likes to keep the ball and bash away through the phases.

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 19 Jul 2013, 2:27 pm

The setup may seem similar in someways, but the execution is different. NZ have big runners at 12 but remember that NZ even call this position the second five-eights, almost like a bigger 10 in the centres. Nonu and SBW are very skilful playmakers, which is what makes them so effective. Even these two players operate in different ways though. One thing Ireland lack (which I hope Luke Marshall will solve in the midfield) is this sort of player at 12, and I do think players who can crash it up in midfield are needed to create momentum at times. However, Wales seem to have this at 9, 11, 12, 13 and 14. This is their main weapon.

I think of Gatland as the type of coach who likes to power through the opposition using his massive backline, as they punch holes in the opposition defence, then using the mobility of the pack to feed the ball out quickly. Rinse and repeat. Hence why I find it quite one dimensional, and very predictable. It works very well in the 6 nations, but evidently not so much against the SH teams.

I guess it is similar in some ways (but a lot more effective) to the game plan Ireland tried to use in the RWC. Literally give the ball to the biggest runners (O'Brien and Ferris) and see if they can create gaps for the outside backs. However we didn't have enough of these players to use this sort of game plan and we all know how it turned out in the end. It didn't suit us, and it was never going to work.

by **rodders** Fri 19 Jul 2013, 2:49 pm

Rory I don't disagree with what you are saying generally, except that the Welsh backs are all skillful players and good offloaders.

Irelands game revolved around individual players, whereas Gatlands is about a system - whereby certain players fit the system and others don't. Its not omnishambles Ireland were under Kidney, its all very structured and well drilled.

Wales have actually always played this side to side rugby under Gatland -even with Williams, Henson, Byrne etc.

The players have just got bigger and its become a bit more brutal and crude.

by nganboy Fri 19 Jul 2013, 2:52 pm

I don't think you should talk about NZ having big runners at 12 just because we have had Umaga, Nonu and SBW there recently. Before then with players like McCallister, Mauger, Alatini, Little we had ball playing and kicking 2nd Fives with the centres being a bit more of the big bosh man. In fact something else I read suggested that was the difference between a 2nd 5/8 and an inside centre (in fact rereading/sgreeing somewhat with what Rory just wrote.

I think the thing for NZ is that we demand our big guys have speed and ball skills as well. So we wouldn't accept a player who can only bash it up. Nonu has had to add a lot to his game over the years to get himself to be a decent 2nd 5/8 for us.

by **rodders** Fri 19 Jul 2013, 3:07 pm

I think generally everyone is saying a similar thing here... its on the assessment of the players where we a diverging.

Being skillful is a given, but its the size and power that makes these systems effective.

I would add too that generally I think the Kiwis tend to be very powerful relative to their size and pound for pound are very physical even when on paper they sometimes aren't as big as some other sides.

by maestegmafia Fri 19 Jul 2013, 4:16 pm

rodders wrote:I think generally everyone is saying a similar thing here... its on the assessment of the players where we a diverging.

Being skillful is a given, but its the size and power that makes these systems effective.

I would add too that generally I think the Kiwis tend to be very powerful relative to their size and pound for pound are very physical even when on paper they sometimes aren't as big as some other sides.

All Blacks, Wales or the Lions at their most effective combine power and skill. The game hasn't changed that much over the years by any margin. The difference being that tackling/defending is much better now.

The skill to beat a defence is still the same, you have to create mismatches and break tackles.

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 19 Jul 2013, 4:30 pm

I don't agree that the welsh players are that skilful though. Phillips, Roberts and Cuthbert are rather limited players but what they do, works very well for Wales and they are very good at it. Phillips for his bruising runs around the fringes, Roberts with his direct running in midfield and Cuthbert for his sheer finishing ability.

Even Davies who is one of the more skilful players in Wales has shown weak awareness and distribution skills for a 13. North is the exception here who really is a world class talent. The same goes for Halfpenny although he doesn't offer a whole lot in attack. Or rather he chooses to go for the safety of the boot more often. He is actually a very capable runner.

by maestegmafia Fri 19 Jul 2013, 4:33 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't agree that the welsh players are that skilful though. Phillips, Roberts and Cuthbert are rather limited players but what they do, works very well for Wales and they are very good at it. Phillips for his bruising runs around the fringes, Roberts with his direct running in midfield and Cuthbert for his sheer finishing ability.

Even Davies who is one of the more skilful players in Wales has shown weak awareness and distribution skills for a 13. North is the exception here who really is a world class talent. The same goes for Halfpenny although he doesn't offer a whole lot in attack. Or rather he chooses to go for the safety of the boot more often. He is actually a very capable runner.

They work well together, compliment each other well. I think you do Jon Davies a disservice, he has a fantastic skillset, boot, handling and timing are superb, as well as power and pace. He is one of the best outside centres in the game.

by Sin é Fri 19 Jul 2013, 5:33 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
rodders wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:I think in picking Farrell Gatland may also have wanted to avoid having the entire Welsh coaching staff in charge.

Wouldn't someone like Les Kiss have made more sense then?

Rodders you cant put Les Kiss in the same sentance as Edwards or Farrell, especially if you are talking defence.

Thats nonsense. Les Kiss is one of the best Defence Coaches around. He was Ireland's Defence Coach when we beat Australia down there (with a top class defence) in the world cup.

Bear in mind London Irish sacked Edwards as Defence Coach in the middle of last season when it looked like the club was going to be relegated.
And Farrell has really not done anything yet.

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 19 Jul 2013, 5:59 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't agree that the welsh players are that skilful though. Phillips, Roberts and Cuthbert are rather limited players but what they do, works very well for Wales and they are very good at it. Phillips for his bruising runs around the fringes, Roberts with his direct running in midfield and Cuthbert for his sheer finishing ability.

Even Davies who is one of the more skilful players in Wales has shown weak awareness and distribution skills for a 13. North is the exception here who really is a world class talent. The same goes for Halfpenny although he doesn't offer a whole lot in attack. Or rather he chooses to go for the safety of the boot more often. He is actually a very capable runner.

They work well together, compliment each other well. I think you do Jon Davies a disservice, he has a fantastic skillset, boot, handling and timing are superb, as well as power and pace. He is one of the best outside centres in the game.

Exactly, they work well together. That is why it works for Wales and for Gatland.

As for Davies, I rate him highly, but he falls short of the best outside centre in the game yet. Like I said during the 6 nations his awareness and passing was rather weak. Many welsh fans complained about this too. However he is a great player with plenty of time to correct this and I do think he had a good Lions tour overall.

by The Saint Fri 19 Jul 2013, 6:37 pm

JD2 was our best player (or second best if you count him behind Halfpenny) for a while up until the opening rounds of the 6 Nations where he was exposed. Wales played more structured from then on and he started to play better, culminating in his place in the Lions test team. I agree that he still has weaknesses though, and they are bad. If I was to compare his skill set to another player then it would be Nonu, and both have played at 12 & 13.

by Taylorman Fri 19 Jul 2013, 8:25 pm

Theres a danger of suggesting a gatland NH template will be used with a Gatland AB side. Fact is with the AB's he has more options. He doesnt have to be so negative, face so many losses, be defensive. I don't suppose many would have predicted the huge success Henry had with the AB's at the time he left Wales.

by **Notch** Fri 19 Jul 2013, 8:33 pm

Taylorman wrote:Theres a danger of suggesting a gatland NH template will be used with a Gatland AB side. Fact is with the AB's he has more options. He doesnt have to be so negative, face so many losses, be defensive. I don't suppose many would have predicted the huge success Henry had with the AB's at the time he left Wales.

Does he know any other way? He had options with the Lions, with far greater depth and quality across the board when compared to an ailing Wallabies side, and he chose to bosh and grind... much to our lasting disappointment.

by The Saint Fri 19 Jul 2013, 8:41 pm

Notch wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Theres a danger of suggesting a gatland NH template will be used with a Gatland AB side. Fact is with the AB's he has more options. He doesnt have to be so negative, face so many losses, be defensive. I don't suppose many would have predicted the huge success Henry had with the AB's at the time he left Wales.

Does he know any other way? He had options with the Lions, with far greater depth and quality across the board when compared to an ailing Wallabies side, and he chose to bosh and grind... much to our lasting disappointment.

Well none of the home nations teams have beaten Australia with this 'free-flowing' rugby. The All Blacks have and they've thrashed them while doing so. Gatland went to Australia with big, strong players and imposed the tactics he thought was best... And it worked out well enough. Why are you convinced he would choose the same tactics if he went to Australia with the current New Zealand team?

by Taylorman Fri 19 Jul 2013, 10:01 pm

Yeah the ABs dont rely on 'big strong players' as such...not even sure what that means. An Oz win over NZ is rare these days, a Lions win over Oz history making so its not the same thing.

Ewen Mck and his side have a huge task ahead of them if the Oz side in the Lions series turns up. Cooper will be back and frankly although he would have gone better than JOC vs the Lions he usually goes terribly vs the ABs who expose his poorer side to the max.

Any coach that takes up the AB post will know its about what opportunities are available and Gatlands not dumb enough to ignore that. The fear of losing is more real for the ABs than any other side because they simply refuse to lose, ever, No other side works with that mentality.

And the best way to realise that is to put the match away well before the end of the match, and attack is the best way to do that. Picking defensive players wont achieve that. You dont maintain a near 90% win rate through defensive strategy alone and Gatland will know that, so will the players, and fans. He might have staunch selection policies but if results don't come he'll have to deal with some very irate and impatient shareholders.

by The Saint Fri 19 Jul 2013, 10:23 pm

Taylorman wrote:Yeah the ABs dont rely on 'big strong players' as such...not even sure what that means.

Guys like Corbs, Hibbard, Jones, AWJ, O'Brien, Phillips, Roberts, North and Cuthbert are big and strong guys in their position, stronger than most of what Aus had available. And in the end it took its toll. That's what I was getting at if that statement was aimed at me.

by asoreleftshoulder Sat 20 Jul 2013, 1:20 am

Taylorman wrote:Yeah the ABs dont rely on 'big strong players' as such...not even sure what that means. An Oz win over NZ is rare these days, a Lions win over Oz history making so its not the same thing.

Ewen Mck and his side have a huge task ahead of them if the Oz side in the Lions series turns up. Cooper will be back and frankly although he would have gone better than JOC vs the Lions he usually goes terribly vs the ABs who expose his poorer side to the max.

Any coach that takes up the AB post will know its about what opportunities are available and Gatlands not dumb enough to ignore that. The fear of losing is more real for the ABs than any other side because they simply refuse to lose, ever, No other side works with that mentality.

And the best way to realise that is to put the match away well before the end of the match, and attack is the best way to do that. Picking defensive players wont achieve that. You dont maintain a near 90% win rate through defensive strategy alone and Gatland will know that, so will the players, and fans. He might have staunch selection policies but if results don't come he'll have to deal with some very irate and impatient shareholders.

Really?As far as I know the Lions have a pretty significant winning record against Oz and beating them is nothing new.

by Guest Sat 20 Jul 2013, 1:57 am

[quote="The Saint"]

Notch wrote:And it worked out well enough. Why are you convinced he would choose the same tactics if he went to Australia with the current New Zealand team?

Unfortunately there's still the slightly romantic (I guess) view that Australia were there to be whitewashed, which in my opinion is slightly disrespectful considering Australia were at home. I accept people can say if Australia had done this and that we might've lost the series, but if Warburton and Drico were allowed to jackal in the first test, it might've been more comfortable, if Captain Sam hadn't gone off in the second it might've ended up different and I'm sure you can find a case to say had Australia kicked their available points earlier in the third, the Lions might've gone for broke earlier (all ifs and buts).

I'll take the win and not dwell on what might've happened.

by maestegmafia Sat 20 Jul 2013, 7:29 am

Notch wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Theres a danger of suggesting a gatland NH template will be used with a Gatland AB side. Fact is with the AB's he has more options. He doesnt have to be so negative, face so many losses, be defensive. I don't suppose many would have predicted the huge success Henry had with the AB's at the time he left Wales.

Does he know any other way? He had options with the Lions, with far greater depth and quality across the board when compared to an ailing Wallabies side, and he chose to bosh and grind... much to our lasting disappointment.

Even recently in his six years with Wales Gatland has changed his gameplan, with Connacht, Ireland and Wasps he played differently. Yes I agree his core aesthetic of patient phase play, set piece dominance and wstertight defence are a common theme but that is no different to any coach.

When the opposition are beaten, open the flood gates.

by Scarpia Sat 20 Jul 2013, 8:47 am

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Yeah the ABs dont rely on 'big strong players' as such...not even sure what that means. An Oz win over NZ is rare these days, a Lions win over Oz history making so its not the same thing.

Ewen Mck and his side have a huge task ahead of them if the Oz side in the Lions series turns up. Cooper will be back and frankly although he would have gone better than JOC vs the Lions he usually goes terribly vs the ABs who expose his poorer side to the max.

Any coach that takes up the AB post will know its about what opportunities are available and Gatlands not dumb enough to ignore that. The fear of losing is more real for the ABs than any other side because they simply refuse to lose, ever, No other side works with that mentality.

And the best way to realise that is to put the match away well before the end of the match, and attack is the best way to do that. Picking defensive players wont achieve that. You dont maintain a near 90% win rate through defensive strategy alone and Gatland will know that, so will the players, and fans. He might have staunch selection policies but if results don't come he'll have to deal with some very irate and impatient shareholders.

Really?As far as I know the Lions have a pretty significant winning record against Oz and beating them is nothing new.

But, as was pointed out in another thread, Australia have been a different prospect since the mid 1980s and even more so since professionalism allowed imports from League.

by aucklandlaurie Sat 20 Jul 2013, 8:57 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I'm not talking about forward play though, and of course I am not confusing hard work in the forwards with one dimensional back play. You can win games through dominance up front with the pack (which is what every team will want to achieve, but isn't always possible) and then release the back line. However what I see is Gatland preferring the power game in the back line, selecting players known for their direct running rather than their silky skills and clever running game. His backs are even bigger than the back row. Even at 9 he prefers an extra flanker to a halfback who can provide quick service to spark an attack.

With Phillips, Roberts, Davies, North and Cuthbert he play this sort of game, and he is dominating NH rugby. At 10 and 15 he seems to prefer the solid options who can win him the territorial battle. However, does this type of game suit the players available to the All Blacks? I don't think so. Cruden and Dagg for a start are certainly not the type of 10/15 that Gatland prefers. Do NZ even have the players to succeed with this game plan? It certainly isn't playing to their strengths.

I think there is a substantial difference between the support play and offloading skills of the NZ starting 15 to the teams in the NH, never mind New Mexico.. that is one of the things that sets them apart and makes the rugby much more enjoyable to watch anyway. They may not have the biggest players, but there is no substitute for their skill levels and running ability.

Gee ziz Rory you asked me to explain the basic historic waikato platforms from which their Style is derived,and I did, But it now appears that was not what you were seeking, you were looking for an opportunity to be able to voice some greivance you appear to hold against warren Gatland. and based on some weird conclusion that because wales has big backs and Gatland has had success with them that he would make some sort of hopeless coach of the ABs.

You may accuse the Welsh of playing one dimensional rugby, but perhaps its your lack of appreciation as to how hard gatland has got the Welsh players working thats one dimensional.

The bottom line is that Gatland is a very, very good coach.

by aucklandlaurie Sat 20 Jul 2013, 9:13 am

Sin é wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
rodders wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:I think in picking Farrell Gatland may also have wanted to avoid having the entire Welsh coaching staff in charge.

Wouldn't someone like Les Kiss have made more sense then?

Rodders you cant put Les Kiss in the same sentance as Edwards or Farrell, especially if you are talking defence.

Thats nonsense. Les Kiss is one of the best Defence Coaches around. He was Ireland's Defence Coach when we beat Australia down there (with a top class defence) in the world cup.

Bear in mind London Irish sacked Edwards as Defence Coach in the middle of last season when it looked like the club was going to be relegated.
And Farrell has really not done anything yet.

Irelands defence didnt look too flash last year when the ABs jammed sixty unanswered points up them, the genius out of the Les (Lets just kiss) Kiss and John Muggleton duo was John Muggleton.

by Sin é Sat 20 Jul 2013, 9:22 am

Ah here now - at the back end of an 11 month season with a makeshift team because of so many injuries!

For the record, Les Kiss wasn't the defence coach for that game anyway as he took over as backs coach from Gaffney after the world cup.

by aucklandlaurie Sat 20 Jul 2013, 9:30 am

Then they appear to have forgotten anything he taught them pretty quickly.

by Sin é Sat 20 Jul 2013, 9:41 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Then they appear to have forgotten everything he taught them pretty quickly.

As I said, there were a lot of injuries at that stage - you may recall Paddy Wallace was flown out from his beach holiday in Spain/Portugal and had a fairly horific day of it. O'Connell, Heaslip, D'Arcy, Ferris, Bowe all missing from the team that would have been at the World Cup.

Edit: By the way, Joe Schmidt has re-employed him as Ireland defence coach Wink

by Taylorman Sat 20 Jul 2013, 9:45 am

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Yeah the ABs dont rely on 'big strong players' as such...not even sure what that means. An Oz win over NZ is rare these days, a Lions win over Oz history making so its not the same thing.

Ewen Mck and his side have a huge task ahead of them if the Oz side in the Lions series turns up. Cooper will be back and frankly although he would have gone better than JOC vs the Lions he usually goes terribly vs the ABs who expose his poorer side to the max.

Any coach that takes up the AB post will know its about what opportunities are available and Gatlands not dumb enough to ignore that. The fear of losing is more real for the ABs than any other side because they simply refuse to lose, ever, No other side works with that mentality.

And the best way to realise that is to put the match away well before the end of the match, and attack is the best way to do that. Picking defensive players wont achieve that. You dont maintain a near 90% win rate through defensive strategy alone and Gatland will know that, so will the players, and fans. He might have staunch selection policies but if results don't come he'll have to deal with some very irate and impatient shareholders.

Really?As far as I know the Lions have a pretty significant winning record against Oz and beating them is nothing new.

really? When was the last 3 test series wim?

by blackcanelion Sat 20 Jul 2013, 11:49 am

I'm glad someone else thinks Gatlandrugby is similar to Waikato Rugby. It links up with my thoughts. I am a long standing Waikato supporter. I'm a couple of years younger than Gats, but supported the team during his era (One of the neighbours was in the side and Foster was an oldboy of my uni hostel).

For me the similarities are there (albeit with differences). In my opinion Waikato were the most "British" of NZ provinces. The team was based on a solid, big forward pack with a specialist openside. In the the late 80's this included the likes of Purvis, Loe and Gatland in the frontrow. Guys like the Gorden brothers at Lock and a loose forward trio that included Mitchell at 8 and Monkley at 7. They were a good set piece side, and had power with the ball in hand. Monkley was a handful for most teams in the loose.

Out back there was the likes of Kevin Putt and Ian Foster in the halves, the centres were often big boys, as were the wings (by the standard of the day), and a running/kicking full back (e.g. Halligan or Strawbridge).

OK, the games moved on a bit. The fitness, pace, size and skill set of players has all risen dramatically. The tactical side is miles ahead of where it was. But I still see many aspects of Waikato in Wales. It shouldn't be surprising it's where Gats learnt his trade as a player.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 20 Jul 2013, 11:55 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Gee ziz Rory you asked me to explain the basic historic waikato platforms from which their Style is derived,and I did, But it now appears that was not what you were seeking, you were looking for an opportunity to be able to voice some greivance you appear to hold against warren Gatland. and based on some weird conclusion that because wales has big backs and Gatland has had success with them that he would make some sort of hopeless coach of the ABs.

You may accuse the Welsh of playing one dimensional rugby, but perhaps its your lack of appreciation as to how hard gatland has got the Welsh players working thats one dimensional.

The bottom line is that Gatland is a very, very good coach.

If that is all you got from what I had to say, then there isn't much more to discuss unfortunately.

by **profitius** Sat 20 Jul 2013, 12:22 pm

So Waikato basically try to turn matches into scrap and dominate that way? Sounds like Gatland alright.

No denying Gatland is a good coach and has an edge over many of his rivals. If he was to coach NZ though they would have to change their style big time.

by **Notch** Sat 20 Jul 2013, 12:57 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote: Irelands defence didnt look too flash last year when the ABs jammed sixty unanswered points up them, the genius out of the Les (Lets just kiss) Kiss and John Muggleton duo was John Muggleton.

Les Kiss wasn't defence coach on that tour. He was attack coach... apparently. Kidney put him in charge of attack after the RWC. But he didn't appoint a new defence coach.

So you might be asking yourself, why did we appoint a defence coach as head of attack and not appoint a new defence coach? Was Les Kiss meant to be in charge of defence and attack? After the tour, Brian O'Driscoll came out himself and said he didn't know who the players were meant to defer to on attack...

So you're beginning to get an insight into why Declan Kidney is no longer our head coach.

by Guest Sat 20 Jul 2013, 12:59 pm

Probably more likely Gatland would have to adapt to the ABs (NZ) style, hence why he'd need to be a S15 coach for at least a year to come to grips with it. The fans/players would not accept him coming in and playing this 'so-called' one-dimensional style, and why would we need to when we produce x-factor players that play a multi-dimensional style.

by The Saint Sat 20 Jul 2013, 1:55 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:

Gee ziz Rory you asked me to explain the basic historic waikato platforms from which their Style is derived,and I did, But it now appears that was not what you were seeking, you were looking for an opportunity to be able to voice some greivance you appear to hold against warren Gatland. and based on some weird conclusion that because wales has big backs and Gatland has had success with them that he would make some sort of hopeless coach of the ABs.

You may accuse the Welsh of playing one dimensional rugby, but perhaps its your lack of appreciation as to how hard gatland has got the Welsh players working thats one dimensional.

The bottom line is that Gatland is a very, very good coach.

If that is all you got from what I had to say, then there isn't much more to discuss unfortunately.

That's all I got from what you said as well.
A few of you Irish keep repeating yourselves despite having been shot down by the NZ posters. Are you struggling with comprehension?

by **profitius** Sat 20 Jul 2013, 2:01 pm

The Saint wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:

Gee ziz Rory you asked me to explain the basic historic waikato platforms from which their Style is derived,and I did, But it now appears that was not what you were seeking, you were looking for an opportunity to be able to voice some greivance you appear to hold against warren Gatland. and based on some weird conclusion that because wales has big backs and Gatland has had success with them that he would make some sort of hopeless coach of the ABs.

You may accuse the Welsh of playing one dimensional rugby, but perhaps its your lack of appreciation as to how hard gatland has got the Welsh players working thats one dimensional.

The bottom line is that Gatland is a very, very good coach.

If that is all you got from what I had to say, then there isn't much more to discuss unfortunately.

That's all I got from what you said as well.
A few of you Irish keep repeating yourselves despite having been shot down by the NZ posters. Are you struggling with comprehension?

I believe Rory Gallagher was making the point that the Waikato/Gatland way might not be the right fit for NZ. NZ play a different style so the question was how would Gatland fit in there.

by The Saint Sat 20 Jul 2013, 2:13 pm

But he has more options available with NZ, so would be able to play any way he wanted, which is what the Kiwi's keep telling you every time you repeat yourself.

by **profitius** Sat 20 Jul 2013, 2:22 pm

The Saint wrote:But he has more options available with NZ, so would be able to play any way he wanted, which is what the Kiwi's keep telling you every time you repeat yourself.

We all know they have more options but we have to ask will he want to or be able to change his gameplan. The Lions had more options but he was forced to go back to what he knows best.

Thats not an attack on Gatland btw. Its just a common sense question. The same was asked about Kidney when he took over Ireland. Kidney played a conservative gameplan to win the 2009 grand slam. Then the ELVs came in and Kidneys style of play was quickly outdated. Kidney tried to but couldn't adapt to a different style. Ireland were stuck between 2 stools with him and we all know how it ended. I think thats the main reason Irish posters are asking these questions. We've seen what happened. Kidney was top class doing what he did best and getting the team to play a certain way. Ireland have a different type of player nowadays to Munster in the noughties.

by Sin é Sat 20 Jul 2013, 2:25 pm

Notch wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote: Irelands defence didnt look too flash last year when the ABs jammed sixty unanswered points up them, the genius out of the Les (Lets just kiss) Kiss and John Muggleton duo was John Muggleton.

Les Kiss wasn't defence coach on that tour. He was attack coach... apparently. Kidney put him in charge of attack after the RWC. But he didn't appoint a new defence coach.

So you might be asking yourself, why did we appoint a defence coach as head of attack and not appoint a new defence coach? Was Les Kiss meant to be in charge of defence and attack? After the tour, Brian O'Driscoll came out himself and said he didn't know who the players were meant to defer to on attack...

So you're beginning to get an insight into why Declan Kidney is no longer our head coach.

Notch, at a guess the reason why a fulltime defence coach was not appointed was because
a) the IRFU didn't want to hire a new coach so close to when all the other coaches contracts were so close to renewal.
b) they did borrow Anthony Foley for the AIs & 6Ns & summer tour to US/Canada which would sort of support the theory that the IRFU didn't want Kidney to hire a fulltime defence coach.
c) Unfortunately poor BOD was out of the loop for the 6Ns that season because he had a shoulder operation, so no wonder he was a bit at sea.

by blackcanelion Sat 20 Jul 2013, 2:34 pm

Just a question. Have BOD or POC shown any interest in coaching.

by Sin é Sat 20 Jul 2013, 2:54 pm

blackcanelion wrote:Just a question. Have BOD or POC shown any interest in coaching.

BOD - no and he is involved in a Player Agent company (with Healy, Heaslip and a few more on its books) which would rule him out taking up coaching. I'd imagine Sky might be interested in him as a pundit.

POC I'd imagine might be interested. A Munster fans dream ticket of coaches in the future would be Foley/ROG/POC!

by **profitius** Sat 20 Jul 2013, 4:50 pm

Sin é wrote:
blackcanelion wrote:Just a question. Have BOD or POC shown any interest in coaching.

BOD - no and he is involved in a Player Agent company (with Healy, Heaslip and a few more on its books) which would rule him out taking up coaching. I'd imagine Sky might be interested in him as a pundit.

POC I'd imagine might be interested. A Munster fans dream ticket of coaches in the future would be Foley/ROG/POC!

I don't know about that Sin. Great players don't always turn into great coaches. In fact its very rare.

by Taylorman Sat 20 Jul 2013, 5:33 pm

The Saint wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:

Gee ziz Rory you asked me to explain the basic historic waikato platforms from which their Style is derived,and I did, But it now appears that was not what you were seeking, you were looking for an opportunity to be able to voice some greivance you appear to hold against warren Gatland. and based on some weird conclusion that because wales has big backs and Gatland has had success with them that he would make some sort of hopeless coach of the ABs.

You may accuse the Welsh of playing one dimensional rugby, but perhaps its your lack of appreciation as to how hard gatland has got the Welsh players working thats one dimensional.

The bottom line is that Gatland is a very, very good coach.

If that is all you got from what I had to say, then there isn't much more to discuss unfortunately.

That's all I got from what you said as well.
A few of you Irish keep repeating yourselves despite having been shot down by the NZ posters. Are you struggling with comprehension?

Still merits discussion though as we easily forgrt the autocratic and divisive nature of the Mitchell era- Mitchell also out of the same Gatland Waikato era. We could so easily slip back into those days with Gatland if he's of the same mould.

by Sin é Sat 20 Jul 2013, 9:10 pm

profitius wrote:
Sin é wrote:
blackcanelion wrote:Just a question. Have BOD or POC shown any interest in coaching.

BOD - no and he is involved in a Player Agent company (with Healy, Heaslip and a few more on its books) which would rule him out taking up coaching. I'd imagine Sky might be interested in him as a pundit.

POC I'd imagine might be interested. A Munster fans dream ticket of coaches in the future would be Foley/ROG/POC!

I don't know about that Sin. Great players don't always turn into great coaches. In fact its very rare.

Not that many great players have tried it yet - it will be a while before the professional era is assessed. Great players in the amateur era that have been good to decent coaches are Tom Kiernan, Willie John McBride and Pat Howard was a decent enough player and very good coach. In soccer, Frank Rijkaard was a great player and a great coach, so just because Roy Keane failed, doesn't mean that it is more than likely they all will - what failed him was his personality (Martin Johnson failed because he wasn't media friendly, though I wouldn't write him off completely yet).

So far, Foley seems to be highly rated. ROG is in the job 2 weeks with Racing and they have increased his responsibility. If POC decides he is going to be a coach, he will be a magnificent one as he has got it all.

by Sin é Sat 20 Jul 2013, 9:18 pm

The Saint wrote:

That's all I got from what you said as well.
A few of you Irish keep repeating yourselves despite having been shot down by the NZ posters. Are you struggling with comprehension?

What would the NZ posters really know about Gatland - he has spent most his coaching life in the NH.

I reckon there will be tears with Wales eventually and Wales will be the baddies in it. I read an article in the New Zealand press a few days ago and they were banging on about Gatland being unfairly sacked* by Ireland in 2001 and Eddie O'Sullivan stabbed him in the back.

In my opinion that is just pathetic. Gatland has his shortcomings but his nasty back biting of EOS has probably ensured that EOS will never get a coaching job again.

*he wasn't sacked. His contract was not renewed. Similar situation to Nick Mallet in Italy & Declan Kidney in Ireland. I bet neither of their successors will have to put up with the sort of Poopie that Gatland has continued to promote in 12 years time. I reckon NZ dodged a bullet when he decided after his stint with the ITM Cup that he couldn't afford to take a Super Rugby job.

by aucklandlaurie Sat 20 Jul 2013, 9:31 pm

blackcanelion wrote:I'm glad someone else thinks Gatlandrugby is similar to Waikato Rugby. It links up with my thoughts. I am a long standing Waikato supporter. I'm a couple of years younger than Gats, but supported the team during his era (One of the neighbours was in the side and Foster was an oldboy of my uni hostel).

For me the similarities are there (albeit with differences). In my opinion Waikato were the most "British" of NZ provinces. The team was based on a solid, big forward pack with a specialist openside. In the the late 80's this included the likes of Purvis, Loe and Gatland in the frontrow. Guys like the Gorden brothers at Lock and a loose forward trio that included Mitchell at 8 and Monkley at 7. They were a good set piece side, and had power with the ball in hand. Monkley was a handful for most teams in the loose.Out back there was the likes of Kevin Putt and Ian Foster in the halves, the centres were often big boys, as were the wings (by the standard of the day), and a running/kicking full back (e.g. Halligan or Strawbridge).

OK, the games moved on a bit. The fitness, pace, size and skill set of players has all risen dramatically. The tactical side is miles ahead of where it was. But I still see many aspects of Waikato in Wales. It shouldn't be surprising it's where Gats learnt his trade as a player.

Thank You blackcan, For a while there I thought I was explaining rugby basics on the ice hockey section.

You raise a good point with Duanne Monkley; Some of the Irish experts appear to think that a style of rugby restricts a team from playing expansive options, it doesnt, a player like Duanne Monkley for years with Waikato, not only played as a tearaway openside flanker, a fetcher, but also as a very talented link player.The Coopers and Halligan's etc scored many tries off plays off monkleys conquests. its successful and I can see how Gatland is repeating that successful formula with Wales and the Lions, I have no problems in seeing it be a template for the ABs.

On another note Duanne Monkley didnt go into coaching to the level that maybe he could have, but I would point out that at times both John Mitchell and Warren Gatland have used him as an assistant coach, you dont have to be a rocket scientist to work out why.

by Knowsit17 Sat 20 Jul 2013, 9:31 pm

The Saint wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:

Gee ziz Rory you asked me to explain the basic historic waikato platforms from which their Style is derived,and I did, But it now appears that was not what you were seeking, you were looking for an opportunity to be able to voice some greivance you appear to hold against warren Gatland. and based on some weird conclusion that because wales has big backs and Gatland has had success with them that he would make some sort of hopeless coach of the ABs.

You may accuse the Welsh of playing one dimensional rugby, but perhaps its your lack of appreciation as to how hard gatland has got the Welsh players working thats one dimensional.

The bottom line is that Gatland is a very, very good coach.

If that is all you got from what I had to say, then there isn't much more to discuss unfortunately.

That's all I got from what you said as well.
A few of you Irish keep repeating yourselves despite having been shot down by the NZ posters. Are you struggling with comprehension?

FFS, you this, you that, you English, you Welsh, you Scots, you SH'ers, you martians etc

Bringing somebody's origins into it as many have taken up the habit of doing is a disgusting and pathetic attempt to derail the initial argument and generalise degradingly on an entire group, which in case you needed reminding is basically racism, borderline if nothing else. It has become a norm over the course of the tour and I for one am sick of it snaking its way into most if not all serious discussions. I'm beginning to take offence to it even when I'm not the one targeted as in this instance.

Sorry to all who are unconcerned, just had to get that off my chest as the regularity of it being used provocatively and antagonistically is becoming unreal!

by aucklandlaurie Sat 20 Jul 2013, 9:41 pm

Knowsit, I thought of late I had been quite complimentary to the Welsh.

The trick is dont let that ingredient of people's comments drag you in, concentrate on the rugby first and foremost.

by Brendan Sat 20 Jul 2013, 9:41 pm

Who do the NZ people think would be the top 3 people in line for the top job at NZ and do they need S15 experience.

Surely Joe Smit has out performed Gatland at the same stage of his career. It does depend how he goes with Ireland.

Would Gats, Smit and others take the pay cut that would be involved in heading an S15 team. Lets be honest with time the gap in pay for coaches is likely to get bigger.

The chief's coach with the style he plays, his results esp. with the players he has would seem to me like the front runner.

by Taylorman Sat 20 Jul 2013, 9:53 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:
The Saint wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:

Gee ziz Rory you asked me to explain the basic historic waikato platforms from which their Style is derived,and I did, But it now appears that was not what you were seeking, you were looking for an opportunity to be able to voice some greivance you appear to hold against warren Gatland. and based on some weird conclusion that because wales has big backs and Gatland has had success with them that he would make some sort of hopeless coach of the ABs.

You may accuse the Welsh of playing one dimensional rugby, but perhaps its your lack of appreciation as to how hard gatland has got the Welsh players working thats one dimensional.

The bottom line is that Gatland is a very, very good coach.

If that is all you got from what I had to say, then there isn't much more to discuss unfortunately.

That's all I got from what you said as well.
A few of you Irish keep repeating yourselves despite having been shot down by the NZ posters. Are you struggling with comprehension?

FFS, you this, you that, you English, you Welsh, you Scots, you SH'ers, you martians etc

Bringing somebody's origins into it as many have taken up the habit of doing is a disgusting and pathetic attempt to derail the initial argument and generalise degradingly on an entire group, which in case you needed reminding is basically racism, borderline if nothing else. It has become a norm over the course of the tour and I for one am sick of it snaking its way into most if not all serious discussions. I'm beginning to take offence to it even when I'm not the one targeted as in this instance.

Sorry to all who are unconcerned, just had to get that off my chest as the regularity of it being used provocatively and antagonistically is becoming unreal!

good point. Its something that goes on at a lower level indefinitely but this Lions tour has exaggerated the problem, highlighted by the dropping of BOD. From there it became and all in, mainly the Welsh vs the Irish with the kiwis jumping in and supported their own as well. For this reason alone the Lions as a concept is serving to split NH opinion rather than bring it together and why in this case the coach must come from one of the four, in my opinion. Trouble is...with Smit, Gatland and Cotter at the helm of three of the four it only leaves Lancaster...

by Knowsit17 Sat 20 Jul 2013, 9:53 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Knowsit, I thought of late I had been quite complimentary to the Welsh.

The trick is dont let ingredient of people's comments drag you in, concentrate on the rugby first and foremost.

It wasn't directed at you. Also it's a different kettle of fish if used in praise or as harmless teasing banter (as is sometimes discernible despite there being a lack of tone to plain text). And finally you can often tell from a poster's history how they intend it to be received. And some, like the Sla- uhh Saint seem intent on using it constantly as a tool of disruption. Even then I tolerate it more often than not. As I said I'm just peeved owing to the sheer volume of threads that're dragged off the rails because of it. It seems that everywhere I turn some smart alec feels the need to spit the "you <insert race here>" address...

by aucklandlaurie Sat 20 Jul 2013, 10:06 pm

Brendan wrote:Who do the NZ people think would be the top 3 people in line for the top job at NZ and do they need S15 experience.

Surely Joe Smit has out performed Gatland at the same stage of his career. It does depend how he goes with Ireland.

Would Gats, Smit and others take the pay cut that would be involved in heading an S15 team. Lets be honest with time the gap in pay for coaches is likely to get bigger.

The chief's coach with the style he plays, his results esp. with the players he has would seem to me like the front runner.

Brendan, thats like asking us lot "how longs a piece of string?"

But a couple of bps;

the NZRFU have made it pretty clear that future coaches will only considered from within New Zealand rugby.

In terms of top three, it is not only a case of selecting the coach, but also their entourage and the likes of Blackadder, Gatland, Hewitt, Kirwan and Rennie would all muster up very impressive teams of coaching staff. Deans is more of a one man band.

I personally put schmidt in the same category as Cotter (didnt they do a stint together in France) they havent gone through a process with an International team, but thats all about to change.

Someone that I also would like top see come back to NZ and show us what hes learnt is Rountree.

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