Debate-amania ROUND ONE!

by x12x Thu 18 Jul 2013, 10:27 pm

Ladies and Gentlemen...welcome to the first round of the inaugural Debate-amainia!

Sadly, we had one guy drop out and due to a mistake on my part one of the debates has two people agreeing about Vince Russo but I'm happy to say this is it and thank you for the effort put in.

RULES!

Revealing which of these debates is yours will cost you 5 votes from your result
After reading the debates PM with your votes on all of them (apart from your own)
The Deadline to Vote is midnight on Saturday, failure to vote will lose you 3 points
The results will be posted on Sunday

Enjoy!

Feel free to discuss the opinions but do your best to not give away which is yours!

The Fingerpoke Of Doom was a good idea

Agree:

The Fingerpoke of Doom. An infamous incident which many people believe contributed heavily to the downfall of WCW. Whilst it may be ridiculed by many I don’t actually think it was as bad an idea as many suggest. The execution of it could perhaps have been better but the idea behind it made a lot of sense. You had the fan favourites The Wolfpac with newly crowned WCW Champion Kevin Nash scheduled to face Goldberg in a rematch for the title. Goldberg however was ‘arrested’ earlier in the evening and unable to compete therefore Nash offered the title shot to Hogan to which he accepted. After circling each other when the bell rang, Hogan poked Nash in the chest and he fell to the canvas, Hogan covered him for the pin to win the title. Hogan, Nash & co then reformed the heel faction of the NWO which garnered heat, which you have to admit is what the intention would have been so in that regard it succeeded. It created heat, it created controversy (which doesn’t always create cash Eric) and it got people talking which is exactly what WCW would have wanted. What promotion wouldn’t want to get tongues wagging about a storyline? Let’s face it, Shawn Michaels and Triple H done a very similar thing for the European Title when they were in DX and it almost went unnoticed so why did WCW get panned for doing the same thing? The answer is because their reputation had already been established by then and fans, media and critics were looking for any excuse to plunge WCW’s reputation into a deeper hole. WCW were under the microscope, they were in a lose/lose situation a long time before this angle and although many see the angle as the straw that broke the camels back you cant blame WCW for attempting it because lets face it they had to do something. The idea behind the Fingerpoke of Doom in the long term made sense – it reunited the NWO who in turn dominated the beast that is Goldberg and apparently the plan was for Goldberg to recapture the title after feuding with the faction. If this would have occurred I don’t think the angle would have received as much heat as it has done. Imagine if WCW were still riding high at the time. Imagine if they hadn’t given away live on air that Foley was winning the WWF Title that night and half a million viewers didn’t change channel. Imagine if Goldberg did win the title back. Imagine if WCW went from strength to strength and continued winning the Wars. The Fingerpoke of Doom would barely even be spoken about. For me, the whole thing was blown way out of proportion and is unjustifiably centred around WCW’s downfall when in truth the damage was done before then and it was a fairly decent idea which unfortunately was simply executed poorly.

Disagree:

The finger poke of doom was bad for wrestling as it diminished professional wrestling's credibility and appeal to fans. Who can honestly say that they would like to spend their hard earned money to watch arguably the biggest name in wrestling history Hulk Hogan win by poking a near 7 ft Kevin Nash in the chest, I for one would not. Both of these men held world titles in WWF before moving to WCW so fans would have expected more and were disappointed and left with a sour taste in their mouths.

The reputations of Hogan and Nash were also tarnished in my opinion with this event as they should have been there teaching the new talent the ropes, they should have been passing on their wisdom instead they turned up to collect a pay cheque and leave. With the years in the wrestling industry these men had surely one of them most have thought this was bad for the company, themselves and the fans.

Fans pay their money to be entertained by spectacular feats of strength, breathtaking aerial moves and the oh my god moments. Fans and the wrestling industry do not deserve to be cheated out of what could have been a great spectacle, yes we see screw jobs and wrestlers lying down but to use the finger poke of doom made a ridicule of the whole spectacle that is professional wrestling.

The finger poke of doom is regarded by some people as one of the many reasons WCW finally went out of business, at the time WCW was blessed with a roster which had some fantastic wrestlers who were being overlooked by the N.W.O. storyline to which the finger poke of doom is associated. WCW became so self absorbed in this storyline they left the likes of Dean Malenko, Chris Jericho, Rey Mysterio and more on the back burners. All of this was happening during a time fans were witnessing the Monday night wars (arguably one of if not wrestling greatest periods) WWF had real competition and had to go all out and put on a great show which seemed to stop shortly after WCW's demise which was also bad for wrestling.

TNA has the potential to become the number one company

Agree:

Does TNA have the ability to be the number 1 promotion in Pro Wrestling? Based on the past year then the answer is clearly yes. Gone are the days of following whatever WWE do like a particularly obedient puppy. TNA innovates whilst WWE just continues. Gimmicks such as the BFG series show off wrestling at its finest, promoting the Submission finish that is protected for only the very top guys in WWE. The BFG series has also been used to promote going homegrown talent. You want evidence? How about Magnus for size. Magnus is someone for TNA to build around, and you know what he's over. Massively over, especially with the British fans with whom TNA clearly care more about than WWE do. This care for the fans is unique and reminds me in parts of ECW. TNA also has more to them than a heavyweight division, something which the true wrestling fan clearly cares about. The x-division launched TNA onto to map and is something that when it is strong the product is too, likewise the knockouts division. In the past month we have had ultimate x, a knockouts last women standing, knockouts ladder match and tons of fun. When was the last time WWE did anything outside of its heavyweight division? Exactly I thought as much.

Roster wise there is still work to be done, but so does WWE. So did WCW when they were destroying the then WWF. In my eyes all TNA needs to do is keep offering something different, gradually increasing the roster and keeping pushing the values that TNA has always stood for. You can keep your Cena, your Punk and your Ambrose. Over in the impact zone we'll be too busy cheering Aries, Kazaniels and AJ Styles.

Is TNA perfect? Not by a long way, is it better than WWE? Debatebly. Can it be the number 1 promotion on the world? Certainly.

More wrestling, more Knockouts, more X Division, more innovation and more Magnus.

Disagree:

TNA will never become the number One Wrestling promotion, hardly a "stop the press" statement but one that has to truly be believed, in theory iMPACT! Wrestling has all the ingredients to truly challenge WWE's dominance of this market place, they have a regular Two hour weekly TV slot in primetime hours, they have a fan base thats extremely passionate and loyal and one thats seemingly expanding.

Having said all that people will wonder why I've been so confident in my assertion that TNA will never overtake WWE, here's why, the thing that allows TNA to breath is the one thing that holds them back, Dixie Carter has done more for the progress of TNA than anyone else her cash (well daddy's cash) has bankroller TNA for as long as she’s been involved, no doubt the product has grown dramatically since she walked into the place but she's hit a glass ceiling that she'll never break, she’s pumping more money at the wage bill than ever before and the results aren't that much greater than they where Four years ago, she played her ace card in bringing Hulk Hogan back to the mainstream table, all its done is burn a hole in her pocket, the company as a whole aren't financially better off when you deduct the amount they spend and there hasn't been one true superstar they've built that you could honestly say could walk into WWE and Main Event WrestleMania, guys like AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Robert Roode, James Storm and Abyss were on a crest of a wave at many points during TNA's existence but never have TNA been able to take them to the next level, thats not a coincidence, TNA have major problems promoting their product, regardless of how well they do or potential they have they just never come across as a company that believes it should be Number One .

Dixie Carter I believe is a fanatical Wrestling fan and while its commendable and respectable that she pumps so much money into Pro Wrestling and gives fans a viable and easily accessible alternative to WWE she’s too easily seduced by what she enjoyed herself, she relies far to heavily on guys who were relevant 15/20 years ago and anything TNA do that could possibly been seen as a fresh exciting idea it inevitably ends up being centered around the same old guys whose best days are a long long way behind them.

TNAs production values are also lightyears behind what's now perceived as standard practice thanks to the sheer professionalism and dedication to being the best that the WWE have produced over the years, their hunger to be the biggest show in town is also a hurdle that TNA will never reach

Smark chants hurt the product

Agree:

Smarks, the guys that look beyond the wrestling side of things and explore the reality of wrestling instead of the show. They to an extent have an influence on the show itself and they do not realise that they are hurting the show because smarks only push who they want and not who the majority of fans want and at shows try to convince others to agree to their views. A recent example of this is with Bray Wyatt. He has an excellent gimmick and 95% of the fans accepted it was freaking creepy (myself included) and yet at his first major showing they had to drag up his old character that failed. Fans forgive most failed projects if given a successful rebranding and they had done here. Smarks have the potential to bury the character they see based on the past or on real life events or lack of believability in a storyline. They think they run the show and they think what they want is best and a prime example started with Fandangoing. Singing and dancing to his song got him popular for a limited run but once the singing stopped what happened? the fans stopped caring and their influence for him fell apart. Smarks are also influenced by their heroes from the Attitude Era as seen with one word. "WHAT?" The constant use of that word when Smarks deem a wrestler or a segment boring has the power to destroy a wrestler getting credibility. It is such an effective tool as well because of the man who popularised it and it is now being used on anyone instead of the intended target group. Some heels have taken advantage of that and generated more heat off of it but when delivered to faces very few can counter it or raise their game because of it and in todays wrestling world where there is a lack of characters the majority of them will just accept it and be demoralised by it, very few will go "ok, gotta improve next time" Smarks are the guys that only care to see their guy improve and there are so many smarks out there with different views that what they say might anger another and cause violence to happen, taking them to the next level....pretend performers who study movesets...

Disagree:

I believe that smart chants can sometimes be a positive concept for the product. My first point is how fans watching at home have reacted to fans live at the event. Two of the greatest Raws in recent memory have come from the smartest fans in the raw after wrestlemania where many of the fans have come from all over the world. People on this board have always mentioned how a good crowd gives the show quite a positive reaction, for example lesnar returning and ziggler winning the whc have seen to be great moments in recent wwe history due to the massive pop that the two wrestlers got when their music hit.

I will give two example where wrestlers have gotten over. Daniel Bryan and fandango. Due to the chants on raw in 2012, Daniel Bryan got a further push which meant that he has become a main attraction for the wwe and this week shows that a good reaction to a wrestler can give a push. What would have happened if the crowd didn't chant for Daniel Bryan? It would have completely ruined what the wwe wanted to do with the cena promo. This means that there are scenarios when smart chants such as yes are necessary for the product to thrive.

Smark chants even got WWE to mainstream with fandango theme song which the fans sang through out the show in 2013. It lead to the song being high on the downloads list and has meant that fandango is a permanent addition to the raw show even though he has quite an average gimmick. This is why I believe that smark chants do not hurt the product but in fact help it to thrive to a high level

ECW was a bad thing for the world of professional wrestling

Agree:

There are a good few reasons that show how ECW was bad for professional wrestling.

The promotion that became the number three in a two man war had to try things in a new manner to make their way in the business.

Their main way of making waves in the industry was to have their wrestlers batter the hell out of each other and themselves.

A famous Mick Foley promo highlighted what were very realistic problems in the company. The fans were rabid and expected high intensity and brutal action. There was little regard for the safety of wrestlers, the crowd wanted blood and realistic pain.

In turn, the company wanted it and the wrestlers, desperate to make a name for themselves, risked their health providing it.

This was a reckless practice and one that was destined to be short lived. ECW may have failed due to money and TV, but if it had survived for longer the style would have died out.

Sadly, it raised the bar for brutality in the fans' eyes. ECW was pulling off such insane spots that the things that had once looked impressive before now had to be upgraded and wrestlers across all companies found themselves taking more risks to impress crowds. Not always just to tell a good story, but because physical abuse of ones body was entertaining to the new breed of wrestling crowd.

The shock value was completely changed, different moments now had less impact to the fans and it provoked completely unsafe attitudes to wrestling.

It also bred the smark.

This attitude from the fans combined with the pace of trying something new and shocking every week in the ring has really affected the business in the long term.

The heroes are no longer heroes, now you have the anti-heroes. The soap opera comes from ECW too. Where before there were underlying stressful factors to stories, and maybe hints or reference to fictional tensions over personal issues, ECW was happy to draw in families. Raven and Sandman battled over a child's loyalty to his father. It forced us into a weird world where wrestling was the way to solve personal disputes.

Those fans too are what you hate now. The ECW chants in crowds even though none of them have probably ever been to an ECW show, the Husky Harris type “smart” chants that are to prove that these smarks know more than the average audience, the breaking down of kayfabe as Paul Heyman revealed any secret he felt like in the ring if his talent left.

You want blood in todays wrestling? Tough. ECW ruined that too, dissolving the effect of it and diluting its meaning.

In the long term, the product stretched its acceptable limits in storylines and the health of its performers, all to chase the dollar.

They were not innovating for your sake people, it was all business in the end.

Disagree:

Why ECW was good for wrestling

500 words? pfff, this could be done in so many less.

Quite simply, without ECW, all the good things about wrestling today (and take your pick of what you like) wouldnt be around.

Without ECW, the WWE would be full of guys like Nash (or Diesel if you will) fighting each other. Size would have mattered and wrestling would have come second.

Let me explain how ECW turned WWE into a great product.

Firstly Paul Heyman is ECW. Without his own promotion, would this guy even be on WWE? Quite simply Heyman is the best thing on WWE at the moment and he learnt the craft in ECW.

And thats just Heyman the man.

The actual show he created pushed the boundaries of what was acceptable and how anyone with heart could be a wrestler. Yes it was violent. Yes it was cartoonish. Yes it wasnt wrestling at times. But what was wrestling at that time? Big guys, who werent great, delivering a product that wasnt relatable to the viewer. ECW smashed the fourth wall.

Without ECW, would we have had the attitude era?

Even the tasteless aspects such as the Raven Crucifixion had positives on wrestling. For one it pushed Kurt Angle into the then WWF and that we should be thankful for!

All of the boundaries that were broken were taken on board by WWF (and WCW) to make those shows better. Just like rock n roll broke the convention, ECW did the same.

So what did ECW ever do for us? Without ECW, you wouldnt have had:

The Dudleys

Table matches in the mainstream.

Which in turn you wouldnt have had the iconic TLC matches in the WWE.

The Hardcore title would also never have happened without ECW.

Everything that wrestling is today, is down to the rules that ECW broke. If you love wrestling, then you must vote pro ECW.

E-C-dubya E-C-dubya E-C-dubya

Hulk Hogan has harmed professional wrestling more than he has helped it

Agree:

Right, before I get started, it's probably worth acknowledging the elephant in the room, that as a key figure in both WWF's national expansion and the nWo in WCW, Hogan was a figure head for times of great mainstream attention and financial gain for the wrestling business. But how much credit does he deserve and was it always change for the better?

As the poster boy for McMahon's national expansion, Hogan is often credited with changing the face of wrestling. But despite his name on the marquee it was not him who decided to exploit cable TV to smash territorial boundaries and stage the first Wrestlemania, that was Vince McMahon. And in terms of being good for business, the only business WWF's national expansion was for was the WWF's with anyone not lucky enough to find themselves under that banner facing lost or reduced livelihoods, if Hogan deserves to share the credit for enhancing the WWF, he also deserves a share of the blame for destroying countless local wrestling strongholds across the US. The cartoonish style that Hogan as top star projected down the card also has to be looked at as possibly harming wrestling in the long term, giving it the childish perception that haunts it to this day.

Moving onto the nWo, many people credit this as a serious good thing for the industry, but to what long term end? WCW ended up going out of business, any money made wasted or lost to ether, and despite the shocking moment of Hogan turning heel ingrained in every wrestling fans mind, again not his idea, instead that of Eric Bischoff, the refusal to let the angle come to a natural conclusion and the creation of the 'cool heel' faction that dominates all others without a natural end, has become a staple of wrestling promotions, particularly those Hogan has been associated with, and has helped ruin the creditability and there in long term drawing power of many babyfaces since then.

Beyond those two key moments in Hogans career, we have to look at though, has Hogan ever actively tried to help the business, when it was not in the long term interests of Hulk Hogan? Ultimate Warrior, Yokozuna, Bret Hart, Sting, Goldberg, The Rock, Randy Orton, the industry is littered with people with who Hogan has either undermined, avoided, pointlessly beaten or fudged the ending of a match in order to protect brand Hogan, often to the long term detriment of his opponent.

Hogan has been shown time and again as a man, who is unable to do anything when given the chance other than promote himself, when given the chance or power, probably shown most recently TNA, where he continues to promote himself as the biggest babyface star, despite not being actively able to wrestle anymore.

The legacy Hogan leaves in wrestling cannot be deputed but I hope I have proved that when scratched beneath the surface, he has done a lot more to the detriment of the business.

Disagree:

Hulk Hogan is a Legend. That word is batted around a bit but when it comes to Hulk Hogan he is a fully fledged legend of the business. Let face it he was the man that took wrestling from small arenas to the world stage.

Hulk Hogan was the face of wrestling during the 80s, a time when wrestling truly was pop culture. Hogan is probably the most famous wrestler of all time. Everyone knows Hulk Hogan, even if they do not know wrestling. You ask a person on the street to name a wrestler most people would say Hulk Hogan.

Hulk Hogan was the first megastar in the Wrestling. No one could put more butts in seats, he was always in the television, interviews on tv and helped sell out an arena of over an alledged 90,000 at Wrestlemania 3.

HIs Role in Rocky 3 only helped propel wrestling to the main stream audience. How many wrestlers had their own cartoon?

Hogan was a great role model for children. He didn't cheat and he didn't back down. The famous catchphrase "Eat your vitamins and say your prayers" reflected the culture of that time. The great american hero taking on the world and fitted perfectly with the zeitgeist of the time. "Whatcha gonna do brother, when Hulkamania runs wild on you!?" brilliant stuff that just went so well with the character.

Hulk Hogan was the most over wrestler with the crowds. Any opponent that took on Hogan was'nt just taking on the largest biceps in the world but the whole of Hulkamania.

Also how can you forget the greatest Heel turn ever when at Bash at the Beach 1996, Hogan officially turned heel when he betrayed WCW to join Kevin Nash and Scott Hall to form the most famous wrestling faction of all time, the New World Order (nWo). Hogan was the leader of this group of renegades, who seemingly "took over" WCW.

You only have to look at his return match, the Icon vs Icon match against the Rock at WrestleMania X8. During the match, Hogan received the majority of the cheers, despite being the heel of the match. Also you only have to watch the raw the night after to see how over he still was.

Hogan was and is still great and has done far more to promote and popularise wrestling than Hurt it

WWE's wellness policy works

Agree:

No show.

Disagree:

In February 2006, the WWE introduced The Wellness Program. A policy that was to combat the often short life span of professional wrestlers. The history books are littered with cases of wrestlers dying before their time and stories of these men not only being encouraged but forced to take steroids, coupled with the rigorous schedule put upon these entertainers the Wellness Policy was a step that the WWE needed to take for the health and well being of their talent. The question today though is not about the need or the intentions of the policy, today we discuss wether the policy actually works and I believe the answer is sadly that it fails on a fundamental level.

At it's very core the Wellness Policy was put in place to act as a deterrent to it's superstars, making the rules on steroid and drug use very clear yet seven and a half years down the line we still see talent being punished for violations. Everyone from ring announcers to Championship Contenders have fallen the wrong side of the rules and if we are to believe reports even World Champions have not seen the policy as enough of a threat to keep within it's guidelines and while these indiscretions do not go unpunished I truly believe that the Wellness Policy though good in it's intentions has now become nothing more than a paid holiday, if it truly were a deterrent then cases that we have seen this very year simply would not have happened.

February of this year, Jack Swagger was on the verge of the push that some say he had been waiting for, he was the shock winner of the Elimination Chamber being pushed ahead of guys like Orton, Bryan and Henry. This story though, as we know does not have a happy ending. That very night Swagger was issued with a DUI and charged with possession of Marijuana, something that goes against the wellness policy but not only did he still get his Wrestlemania match he has avoided suspension to this very day. Sure, his push was halted but doesn't it say something when main event stars have little regard to the policy? To me it says that it simply does not work and that sadly the smaller stars of the company are the only ones who are really punished.

Two days removed from Money In The Bank we have the perfect example of the Wellness Policies' failure, Randy Orton, a man reported to be on his 5^th violation of the policy holds the MITB briefcase and while some could say that he has been away from the title scene for over two years and that should be punishment enough he has spent that time as one of the highest paid stars on the roster.

The Wellness Policy is fundamentally flawed and it's these flaws that stop it from working, the WWE seem to protect their top talent, totally destroying the intentions of what should be a great thing.

Vince Russo doesn't deserve the criticism he gets

Agree:

Little else in the world mattered to Vince McMahon in the late 1990′s and Vince Russo took that mandate to heart. In the beginning it was a team effort with Russo, Cornette, and Pritchard handling the bulk of the booking duties. While Cornette and Pritchard had a lot more experience than Russo, it was Vince Russo who knew that things HAD to change if the WWF was going to survive. So he stole some things from ECW and Howard Stern and WWF Attitude was born.

By 1998 with Vince Russo at the helm of Monday Night RAW, along with Ed Ferrara, that 1.8 rating consistently moved into the 5′s and in 1999 the ratings were in the 6′s. On two occasions in 1999, May 24th and July 26th, Monday Night RAW had a rating above 7.0. By 1999, WWF had taken wrestling ratings to heights that it had never dreamt of before and the head writer of that era was Vince Russo.

When WWF Attitude was running strong the middle of the card was also being utilized, perhaps better than it ever has been before. Not only were there modern (for the time anyway) gimmicks like the Godfather and Val Venis, but the mid card had storylines that built on practically every RAW. The Brood and Hardy Boyz, Val Venis and Kaientai, Jeff Jarret and Chyna, Al Snow and the Big Bossman all were undercard feuds with storys which gave the talent a purpose to be on the show. Far too often do we see two wrestlers with a match on RAW that serves no purpose other than to say “Hey! We’re still employed”. The mid card in 1998 was the elevation of The Rock and HHH but it also involved all of DX vs the Nation which gave 10 guys (yes INCLUDING Chyna) a reasonable purpose to be on your television.

They weren’t all hits (Beaver Clevage anyone?) but the effort was there to involve every member of the roster in some form or fashion. Hardcore Holly, while not in a direct feud right away, had a running gimmick of being a Superheavyweight and I would argue that Bob Holly was never more entertaining then at point in time. Likewise, the Big Bossman had two of my all time favourite funniest angles with Al Snow and The Big Show. While the Big Show angle was slightly after Russo’s time, the Bossman character had been laid out during his tenure and the results were gold! . Regardless of who was featured on the undercard of a Monday Night RAW show in 1998 or 1999, I knew that there would be a point to what was on my television. my point here is that there was very very little filler on RAW

Everyone remembers the man that ruined WCW not the man that helped WWE gain it's rating back in the middle of the war with WCW.

Agree 2:

It is easy to for wrestling fans to just dismiss Vince Russo as a failure or even a “plague” upon the wrestling business, but I really don’t think he gets the credit he deserves for what he has achieved. Russo was instrumental in one of, if not THE biggest era in professional wrestling and thanks to his vision, albeit under supervision, he helped the WWE to conquer the threat of WCW and become the global superpower that it is today.

We can make endless lists of mistakes or flaws in the life of Vince Russo and the negatives do outweigh the positives, there can be no dispute, but that does not mean we should forget the impact he had on the Monday Night Wars.

Russo is the brainpower behind the rise of Stone Cold Steve Austin, DeGeneration X and The Rock. Any man who helped to market two of the biggest icons this business has ever seen deserves to be remembered and thanked for his contribution. He brought WWF back from the brink of defeat, potentially heading in the same direction WCW did a few years later, and his hot streak between 1997-1999 was one of the best periods in WWF history. Russo tapped into exactly what the audience wanted to see at the time and I think he deserves high praise for that. Russo may be a bad guy to many but for me, if there was no Vince Russo then there would have been no “Attitude Era” and there would be no WWE.

The Undertaker's Wrestlemania streak should never be broken

Agree:

Why should The Undertaker never lose at Wrestlemania?

It’s fairly simple really. Look at some of the names he has defeated at the grandest wrestling stage, The PPV of the year, the Superbowl of wrestling. Do people really think that after names like Punk, Jake Roberts, Nash, Flair, HBK [twice] and Triple H on three occasions, have jobbed to this man, to make his undefeated streak look even more unstoppable, John Cena, or any wrestler of the current generation, is going to end it?

For those that say if Undertaker was to lose it would put someone so over I’d compare it to a teenager losing their virginity (to which as wrestling fans you may not yet have experienced so keep that streak going geekazoids!), they wait on it, they think when it happens it’s going to be this amazing moment and in reality it turns out to be a damp squib that you’d rather forget. It changes everything but you can never go back and redo it with someone else that may be damn sight better.

How weird would it be, watching an old Wrestlemania rerun where The Undertaker wins, knowing that the run ends at a later stage. It wouldn’t be the same. There would be no legacy to speak of if Taker lost his final match. Look back at another streak in Goldberg, the mysticism was there, win after win after win. And then the loss, he became human, he became mortal, he became just another wrestler, Taker is not just another wrestler. The Undertaker has become the Father Christmas of pro-wrestling, you see him once a year, the kids love him and the whole event revolves around him, take the streak away and it’s the same as when your child discovers Santa isn’t reveal, the magic is lost forever.

Undertaker does not need to lose his streak at Wrestlemania to put people over. The very fact that someone is in the ring with him at that PPV is enough for them to go over. With the Undertaker’s streak being so discussed in wrestling, it will be looked back on many times over. This way guys like Bossman or Batista will be remembered. The image of them getting pinned will be engrained in people’s memories. It might not be ideal to be remembered as a defeated man, but you know what they say, bad publicity is still publicity. And say for example that the streak was broken, that an upcoming star such as Bray Wyatt took it, it immortalizes at that moment in time but the ONLY way from that point is down. That’s the pinnacle of their career right there and then, never bettered.

To conclude, the most exciting moment will be when The Undertaker announces his final match at Wrestlemania. This is when he will be expected to face a big opponent, someone who fans would need to believe could realistically get the win, but someone who The Undertaker would ultimately end up defeating anyway.

Disagree:

The Undertaker should not remain unbeaten at Wrestlemania.

This has somehow become a taboo sentence in WWE internet discussions. The Streak, the greatest run in Sports entertainment. Sure it's awesome, but does it deserve to reign immortal?

No. Simple as that. Wrestling, by definition, is sports entertainment. What that means is that it has to maintain an element of realism, like sport. A nearly fifty year old man, even one at 6'11 300lbs, has no place beating men two decades younger than him, especially if they have just completed a 434-day reign as the Best in the world. It destroys that element of realism, especially when in the build-up, The Undertaker was not given the supernatural powers which are normally associated with him. Make no mistake, this year, CM Punk basically lost to a semi-retired guy who didn't even have a tune-up fight.

One thing I can guarantee is that the Undertaker WILL lose at 'Mania. Why am I so confident? It is a wrestling tradition to lose your final match, and:

a) I can't see The Undertaker's final match being anywhere else, and equally importantly

b) The Undertaker respects the business too much to have it any other way. So any Smarks foaming at the mouth about the possibility of the Undertaker retiring 23-0 or whatever need to sit down. The guy is. You can put money on this, and I will (possibly) pay you back should I prove to be wrong.

The entertainment part in "Sports entertainment" creates a minor issue. Any defeat has to make sense. normal sports don't have this albatross around their necks. Miami Heat lost to a Washington Wizards team that had lost thirteen games out of fifteen, that's the B-ball equivalent of John Cena losing to Jinder Mahal. The fans would call that out in a minute. The same logic is what prevents an Undertaker defeat from happening, at least not without a convincing build-up. For that reason, I think that eventually, John Cena will be the man to add the much wanted "1" to the record. It would explain why, even in recent history, when opponents have been hard to come by, SuperCena has not been seen as an option. The E could plausibly see Cena as the man to take it all away. Pity as it is the sort of thing that could move a mid-carder's career into the stratosphere, a la Chris Jericho's One night-Two wins Magnum opus in 2001.

So there, I've told you why

1) Why the Undertaker should lose at Wrestlemania

2) Why the Undertaker WILL lose at 'Mania

3) Who will beat the Undertaker at WM

by Adam D Fri 19 Jul 2013, 12:40 pm

Votes sent

Good work everyone.

by kingraf Fri 19 Jul 2013, 2:45 pm

not gone through everything yet. I tend to skim through things when theyre long, so Im breaking it down, slowly

by x12x Sat 20 Jul 2013, 6:52 am

Deadline to vote is tonight at midnight...any votes after that may not be counted but you may still be charged!

by MetalMotty Sat 20 Jul 2013, 2:15 pm

Votes sent good stuff everyone gonna be a tough competition

by x12x Sat 20 Jul 2013, 2:51 pm

Really happy with the effort put in...I'll announce it now as I'm not sure what to do about it but I was sadly the walkover result, meaning at the moment I am through to the next round.

My question is...do I go through to the next round OR do I give my spot to the loser with the highest votes?

I'll leave it open to you guys!

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Sat 20 Jul 2013, 5:39 pm

I found this a bugger to be honest, its a little bit weighted in favour of whoever gets the best option I must say, I found myself trying to make sure I voted for the ones who formed the best arguments, but its hard to do so when you think they are wrong.

by Dr Gregory House MD Sat 20 Jul 2013, 6:17 pm

I was quite impressed with a lot of the defences of unpopular views, they seemed well thought out and orginal while some of the more common opinions seemed to go through the motions though that's probably unfair, as there's nothing new to be said.

You should just keep going viper, I'd rather go out fairly than go through on a technicality.

by kingraf Sat 20 Jul 2013, 7:42 pm

Got my Moan ready in case I dont win. It will go something like this.

www.youtube.com/watch?ved=0CAcQqwQ&ei=Y9nqUay6A7Ox4APh_IGYDA&v=1z8gCZ7zpsQ&sa=X&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D1z8gCZ7zpsQ%26sa%3DX%26ei%3DY9nqUay6A7Ox4APh_IGYDA%26ved%3D0CAcQqwQ

followed by one of these to the victor
www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&client=mv-google&gl=ZA&v=cE1jJ45DVnU

by x12x Sun 21 Jul 2013, 2:16 am

RESULTS!

https://www.606v2.com/t46602-debate-amania-round-one-results-plus-next-round-opinions

by **Hero** Sun 21 Jul 2013, 9:00 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I found this a bugger to be honest, its a little bit weighted in favour of whoever gets the best option I must say, I found myself trying to make sure I voted for the ones who formed the best arguments, but its hard to do so when you think they are wrong.

I actually found myself on several voting against what I believe.

by kingraf Sun 21 Jul 2013, 9:03 am

It was tough voting tbh. The toughest was the ones where I had no opinion either way... Got sparked by Hero though, no complaints...

by x12x Sun 21 Jul 2013, 9:39 am

Just so people don't miss it, the remaining numbers are 1, 2, 4 & 8.

Left to chose are Kayfabe, The Great Marty H and Dolphin Ziggler...if there numbers left over I'll roll a dice to decide and opinions will be with you by midday (fingers crossed)

by Mr H Mon 22 Jul 2013, 9:14 am

So did I win my debate but got eliminated because I didn't vote? Meh.

Wasn't in work Friday & had family matters to attend to all weekend so didn't get a chance unfortunately. 3pt deduction for no vote is harsh!

Oh well.

by x12x Mon 22 Jul 2013, 9:27 am

Yeah sorry about that mate but I made the deduction harsh to make sure people voted, hope you're alright though.

by Mr H Mon 22 Jul 2013, 9:36 am

Yeah fine buddy cheers.

At least I can take solace from the fact I convinced the majority of voters that the Finger Poke of Doom was a good idea!

by x12x Mon 22 Jul 2013, 9:48 am

I'll be honest I was a bit gutted because you beat the Opinion of Doom quite strongly...when I first chose it I was like "it's not the hardest but I can't see people doing well with it" haha

by Mr H Mon 22 Jul 2013, 10:13 am

Don't worry about it man its all good. If I missed the vote I missed the vote, no excuses eh. Good work with the competition though bud its proving to be a great idea.

by Adam D Mon 22 Jul 2013, 10:14 am

If I had one comment about it next year is that the poll should be opened up to non participants too.

How will it work when its down to the last 2?

by Mr H Mon 22 Jul 2013, 10:15 am

I'll be honest I didn't fully understand the voting aspect of it, I thought it was non participants who voted. I would have made sure I got online over the weekend to vote if I wasn't such a douche.

by x12x Mon 22 Jul 2013, 10:27 am

Well going in to round 2 we have 8 people so I will be opening voting up to ex members of the competion, hoping to get around 12-16 people voting overall and then in the semi finals I will do the same to make sure we get a big number to decide on the winners. For the final I will open it up to as many people who want to vote even if counting the votes breaks my brain...probably leave voting open for a week for the final.

by Adam D Mon 22 Jul 2013, 10:31 am

xviperx wrote:Well going in to round 2 we have 8 people so I will be opening voting up to ex members of the competion, hoping to get around 12-16 people voting overall and then in the semi finals I will do the same to make sure we get a big number to decide on the winners. For the final I will open it up to as many people who want to vote even if counting the votes breaks my brain...probably leave voting open for a week for the final.

Why dont you just set up a poll?

by x12x Mon 22 Jul 2013, 11:02 am

1. People will be able to vote for themselves.
2. This way i can make sure people only vote once.
3. The results stay secret until I reveal them.

by x12x Wed 24 Jul 2013, 10:24 am

Deadline for Round Two opinions is tonight, got 2 out of the 8 so far...how likely is it that we'll be getting the rest tonight by midnight?

by The Last Outlaw Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:06 am

I will send mine later tonight when i finish work pal.

by x12x Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:07 am

Sweet, if I need to extend the deadline I probably will, would rather get through from votes this time and not on a technicality haha

by The Last Outlaw Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:10 am

Same here i felt rotten on Mr. H as he did such an awesome job

by x12x Thu 25 Jul 2013, 10:47 am

Ok so here is the current situation...we currently have entries from me, Nando, Kayfabe and The Great Marty H...I won't say if we have walkovers or not but with half of the people still to get in I'm not sure what to do.

I can extend the deadline and message everyone but I feel like I shouldn't have to chase everyone up, especially when people have ignored my messages in the last few days.

These are my options:

Wait until Sunday and then go ahead with posting what we have OR give some of the better "losers" a second chance?

Opinions?

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