George Smith versus Richie McCaw

Possibly a headline you'd more likely here 10 years ago, I'd like to contrast the returns of both men.

Richie McCaw with his soft silk gloved treatment, executive sabbatical and will-he-wont he shenanigans has retuned to find his spot in the Crusaders unavailable due to the blistering form of Matt Todd. His 10 minute stint in which the Crusaders let a semi final slip also earned him an injury which may rule him out for the rugby championship.

Now George smith had no such monkeying around. He retired, had a real break and was lured back. By contrast he had a blinding game for the Brumbies and possibly single handedly made the difference that saw them oust the bulls (at home) to reach the super rugby final.

I suggest there is a lesson here.

Haven't read anything about McCaw being in danger of missing the RC. Said his first game back will be at the Hutt Rec.

Smith is a legend though and one of the three guys I've seen to outplay McCaw on several occasions-the others being Brüssow and Dusautoir. Vaguely remember him having a huge impact in the 03 semi.

disneychilly wrote:Haven't read anything about McCaw being in danger of missing the RC. Said his first game back will be at the Hutt Rec.

Smith is a legend though and one of the three guys I've seen to outplay McCaw on several occasions-the others being Brüssow and Dusautoir. Vaguely remember him having a huge impact in the 03 semi.

After this Autumn you'll be able to add Chris Robshaw to that list  

Chris Robshaw will play well in the 03 semi?      

I would venture to say that McCaw has been outplayed many times in his career. Just like he has lost tons of games. However, who has consistently outplayed him? He's not the second best number 7 of all time for no reason is he? oh that might get some response.

nganboy wrote: He's not the second best number 7 of all time for no reason is he? oh that might get some response.

The iceman would be proud of ya Ngan! Especially coming from a Wellingtonian and all... (I know you really meant JC...Jerry Collins!)...

Jerry was a 6 mate. I was thinking of So'oialo... no Masoe.... no Vanisi yeah that's the one.

The great man, weaving his magic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gji6NclA9t0

McCaw has picked up a niggling neck injury. Don't think that will keep him out of the RC.

George Smith also picked up some injuries in his comeback year so early days for Richie. He'll probably be coming into his own around November, which is not a bad thing. I hope he continues with his bench appearances because he's far from match fit at the moment. I think Todd warrants inclusion as Cane has been off his best this season. I didn't care too much for his performances in June.

A dozen test losses against more than a 100 wins is not what I'd call a ton of games nganboy! I'd agree he's our second best 7 but I'd argue he's our best leader in the professional era. Even surpassing the legendary Fitzpatrick.

Kia. I think Dave Rennie agrees with you about Sam cane.

Todd just has that extra bulk to make his presence felt. Cane is much like Vito (at least when he's picked at 7 and 6) for me. Plenty of speed and great in the open and support play but just seems to go missing in the tight exchanges. Luata is the closest we have to Kaino. Messam has good games and bad. Richie as back row cover gives Hansen more flexibility though he won't put Luata in at 6 to start the game if that's the case, especially if there is somebody with little test experience like Todd alongside him.

I'll be interested to see who he picks for the backrow because we were largely outplayed there in June and our backline suffered as a result.

Seemed like to a man England outplayed NZ which rarely happens. I doubt the rest of the English team would enjoy the same level of supremacy in November therefore Robshaw might not have his own ascendancy. The All Blacks will be champing at the bit to absolutely belt England-we usually give one European side a towelling no matter our previous form and I think the odds are on for England as France are France and a Schmidt coached Ireland is an unknown quantity.

Want to see Luatua involved heavily. We need an enforcer. McCaw is more physical than your average 7 which is a huge asset in the battle up front.

Ha bang on about McCaw. Michael Jones IMO was the best player ever. Apologies to Edwards, Meads et al.

Was funny to read how Sam Harding was the star who kept McCaw out of every side till the ABs. Poor guy must have been spewing.

Iceman 'greatest' ever all black? Come on now. McCaw must have taken over the mantle surely. Rose tinted glasses you guys have, dialed into 1987.

87? You're forgetting 96 Ebop not to mention 88-89. I saw him get stretchered off in 89 though-still remember the hush over the ground. World's best player in three positions-McCaw didn't have claim to that.

I forget 96, what happened DC? I've seen McCaw win a RWC with a broken foot and steal a ball off another player and do a rolly polly at the same time. 100+ caps. IRB PoY multiple times, etc, etc. Maybe it's when he retires and it's 20 years down the track, that's when McCaw will be the greatest AB ever. Not the best skilled player maybe, but greatest nonetheless.

Jones came back from reconstructions in both knees to be the best player in his position both times. Was part of probably the best loose trio of all time with Kronfeld and Brooke-winning a series in SA for the first time, and was so far ahead of his peers in his 87-89 prime that he redefined the play of a 7. Has the same number of WC medals as McCaw at present, and all this without playing on Sundays. The only reason Brewer was playing 6 most of the 95 World Cup. Recall the 91 semi among others being an important game he missed. I love both-in an all time XV I'd have Richie at 7 and MJ at 6. But I wouldn't dare criticise those picking MJ as the best as living in 87. Doesn't do the man justice.

Did you see Smith vs the Lions, GE? Say what you like about their differing contributions in their SFs, Smith looked lost and took knocks in his Lions cameo, I expect Mccaw to feature highly in and lead the AB campaign in the RC to victory

DC, I'm not denying Jones was great, he's up there no doubt. But just because he re-defined 7 play doesn't make him the greatest AB. Lomu re-defined what a winger could look like, more teams copy that don't they and that type of copy-cat-ness has had more longevity hasnt it? Lomu's not even near being the greatest AB.

McCaw is the greatest for the full package and probably on stats and team influence to. Heck, i'd even have Fitzy above Jones as being great in terms of influence, afterall, he captained the 96 side that beat SA in SA. In terms of skill and impact, I'd have Cullen over Jones. For tackling, I'd have Collins over Jones. For turnovers and pace, I'd have Kronfield over Jones. How about Meads over Jones for toughness? Even Zinzan did things that Jones could never pull off. I dunno, maybe not rating Jones as the greatest ever AB is not the done thing, i personally think he's been put on a pedastill a bit too much.

ps. George Smith is a legend.

That's right ebop. Do not worship false idols. Richie is God. Only Cantabs can sit on the highest throne. It's not the capital of the Mainland for nothing.

I look forward to dc's rebuttal to your comment.  

I've said it before. McCaw does everything close to perfectly but when Jones played it was BEAUTIFUL!

ChequeredJersey wrote:Did you see Smith vs the Lions, GE? Say what you like about their differing contributions in their SFs, Smith looked lost and took knocks in his Lions cameo, I expect Mccaw to feature highly in and lead the AB campaign in the RC to victory

Third test? Yeah we got that typical NH refereeing where players don't have to support their weight and can just dive headlong into the ruck. It was a total mess and suited better to the sort of low skill high body weight players favoured up north. Add to that Smith wasn't getting much help from his compatriots who looked largely uninterested in the match. I suspect they were aiding the coaching transition.

Kia and Ebop

I would regard Jones as the master of no.7. play, no other player does those extra things in a game what Jones would contribute, McCaw leads and is currently the most valuable player in any rugby team in the World, but he doesnt create like Jones could.

Basketball has Michael Jordan,
Rugby has Michael Jones...

Pop had Michael Jackson
Sickening variety had Michael Barrymore
Inane waffling had Michael Portlio

There's a trend their y'know

Michael Schumacher.

 

GloriousEmpire wrote:Pop had Michael Jackson
Sickening variety had Michael Barrymore
Inane waffling had Michael Portlio

There's a trend their y'know

606v2 has

Cyril wrote: 

GloriousEmpire wrote:Pop had Michael Jackson
Sickening variety had Michael Barrymore
Inane waffling had Michael Portlio

There's a trend their y'know

606v2 has

I've heard every cigarette you smoke takes 10 minutes off your life. I'm not sure how accurate the saying is but I suspect every time you comment on ghosty's threads, refer to him or lend him even a sliver of the attention he craves you prolong his stay with us by about a week.

Nice one Kia, I'm not even from the mainland and I vote for McCaw as the greatest. DC is gonna lynch me alright. I usually bow down to you guys' vastly superior rugby knowledge, but I'm sticking with McCaw on this one based on overall influence and bringing home the bacon over and over again.

Damn, I've smoked 14 packs in 20 days, that's a whole lotta minutes. Must give up before I get home, the missus will kill me, if the smokes don't first.

Long live the ghost

"Cranking up the gallows..."

I should lynch Kia too for that Canterbury crack I'm smack bang in the middle being from Welly-ah the great Kupu Vanisi...lol.

Sean Fitzpatrick had the biggest influence ever but it was a different position. Sean Fitzpatrick was the greatest referee in the history of rugby.

McCaw's engine and breakdown ability is unparalleled over time-he's consistently found a way to make a difference and that's saying something with guys such as Pocock and Brüssow coming onto the scene. Jones however had athleticism never seen before from a forward. He could have played centre-he was that quick and his fitness was also supreme. Before lifting he guaranteed lineout ball at the back due to his jumping ability. Jones' pace IMO was beyond anyone including Kronfeld. The guy was a better 6 than Richard Hill-and to think that wasn't his best position is staggering. In fact I wouldn't mind seeing McCaw switch to 6 as he's upped his bulk and physicality recently. Ask Francois Pienaar what he thinks of Jones' tackling by the way. It's on the same level as Collins that's for sure.

McCaw's mana is incredible but more prevalent as he is the skip. Plus he's a skip that's won everything. Jones has won everything too however and there is no doubt his mana radiated through the teams he played with. He just wasn't the captain. The captain always should have the most influence.

Overrated isn't the nasty word everyone makes it out to be. I rate Jones as the best player ever, you don't. So Ebop thinks I overrate Jones. Ditto for McCaw though he is the only flanker in Jones' league. Player of the Year awards don't count-they started after Jones retired and he'd have had at least two if that were not the case.

Apart from Mark Carter of course.

I wanted that tape on his head to get caught on Richard Loe's boots so badly...

The minutes that are taken off your life are not the ones where you're young, carefree and shagging everything that moves. They're the ones at the end of your life where you're lying in a bed in agony wishing Death would just come along already and take you. I'm not a smoker but keep puffing away if that's what you like.

Mark Carter with all those head bandages was Robocop. Not the Robocop though at the start of the movie. The one where he's crushed and looking pretty worse for wear at the end of the movie. Only special players play well with bandages. Cullen for example. Zinzan Brooke I swear actually played better when he came off to get his head bandaged. Every selector has their unexplained favourite. Hart had Carter...

Michael Jones' tackling philosophy was built on the Bible quotation it's better to give than to receive. He wasn't the biggest of men but he did have a bone jarring tackle. It's always difficult to compare eras. Colin Meads running with the ball (not the modern synthetic balls mind you) in one hand making it look like a large free range egg suggested he was something special of his time. Jones was very much the same with his athleticism and pace, his support play and ability to break the line, and also his work on defence.

McCaw has the advantage of being the leader of a team that has achieved a frightening record. Only Conrad Smith has a higher winning ratio but with a lot fewer games. That pathetic name rival fans give him (McCheat doesn't even rhyme) wasn't given to the likes of Fitzpatrick (the world's most illustrious ref) or Jones. Keyboard warriors, it must be said, have grown exponentially since the professional era began, but it's interesting that rival fans pour out all their loathing onto him. Is it because he is the captain or is it because they feel out of all the players he has the most influence (or does that influence come from being captain)? Regardless of the reason, he is the player teams target and like Fitzpatrick he has taken everything that's come his way and never retaliated.

I just consider myself grateful to have grown up (in Canterbury!) and seen so many amazing players. We have truly been blessed in this era and though McCaw's career is not over yet, he is being put up on that pedestal (or knighthood step) already but like the great man let's just see what we have in store for the future. Head down and get on with it. The accolades (and knighthood) will come later.

Kia Kaha, Kia...and Disney.

kia

We only call him McCheat because he's so blydi good - surely one of the defining characteristics of a top class 7 is how far they can play the ref without getting pinged (something that fine upstanding Englishmen like Neil Back and Richard Hill would never stoop to   )

DH the whole NZ team gets it all the time now. Dwyer had another go the other week. Communication with the ref before and during the game with respect and intelligence ensures NZ are surer than most of where the line is-so they can attack situations with that knowledge. McCaw was in constant contact with Joubert in the 11 final to ensure that. He didn't know to do that well enough with Barnes.

Obviously the rose tinted specs come off when Canterbury play Wellington but you just admire him for how influential he can be now that the game's closed up so much.

Yeah, well said Kia n DC, very well said. Two great men and ABs and you do them both justice in explaining why they are so great.

I think you guys are confusing the argument.
Jones the best 7 ever - IMO definitely
McCaw the best All Black ever - probably - in that there is more to being the best All Black than just being the best in the position.

Agreed ?

Well said Nga.

Basically I think we are all pretty much on the same page, trouble is its a centrefold and we get distracted by different things.

Yep I'd agree with that but would add 7 'AND player'.

McCaw as greatest All Black due to both his abilities as a player and captain- more his later years as captain and because of his absolute dedication to the jersey- in my mind theres no one that beats him on that count- though there are many (many) runner ups.

They didnt have IRB player of the year back in Jones day and I would say he'd have been well up there for more than one during his career- 87 for instance would have gone to either Jones or Kirwan for sure with Jones possibly winning one or two later on.

Caleb Ralph was the best AB ever. At least when he played for Canterbury.  

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Caleb Ralph was the best AB ever. At least when he played for Canterbury.  

What? is caleb better than Shane?

Hang on a minute, I'm confused now, McCaw is the greatest AB ever? And who the heck is Caleb Ralph?

Who indeed ebop! Laurie has quite rightly pointed out Shane Philpott. Could cover any position in the backline such was his talent and size. Literally. Was so great he put up his AB cap on eBay to share his greatness with the people.

Another Canterbury hero. Coincidence. I think not.

Caleb Ralph remoulded the history of NZ rugby...the first in the pro era to leave the Auks to try it elsewhere...after that the floodgates never stopped. Admittedly he left because Auks didnt want him, the the Cantabs turned him into a mini star!

View from an Englishman:

You cannot meaningfully compare across generations, but it is fun to do so, and provides most of us on these boards with something to do.

MJ and RM are both supreme flankers. Just lucky to have watched them both.

RM may not have the skills of MJ, but it does not make him a worse player. Using an English analogy, Simon Shaw had skills aplenty over Martin Johnson. But it was never in question who should start.

Back in his pre-European sojourn days, George Smith was certainly on a level with RM. But RM has kept that high level for much longer.

Yes, we all saw GS against the 2013 Lions. Not easy to play a game concussed. However, he was a star performer against the 2003 Lions. The Lions gameplan in a sentances was "stop Smith!" Back then he was almost unplayable (at that stage I feel he had the upper hand over MaCaw).

Smith was never really on a level with McCaw... Eddie Jones used to play Smith and Waugh together to combat McCaw, had Smith been capable on his own then Jones would have been able to select a more dynamic backrow.

Your opinion fa0019. Very welcome to it. I just don't agree.
Circa 2000 he was very much on a par, and I would say just about edged their S12 battles, of which Waugh was not involved (being a 'Tah). As I say, RM has held his high standards over many, many more years. But it is easy to forget how awesome GS used to be.

(Forgive me - Lions were in Oz in 2001 not 2003).

They were both picked in non-NZ tests as well fa so I don't think it was because of McAwe. I think we just didn't have many decent backrows.

I read recently that Smith played 125 of 126 consecutive Brumbies games, and 110 of 116 consecutive tests from debut until his first retirement. That's remarkable resilience for a seven. The one Brumbies game he missed was in 2010 and his replacement was micheal Hooper on debut.

McAwe. Love it boomeranga.

If you don't happen to like him then at least McBore, for example, rhymes with his name. McCheat sounds like a puzzle solver for a Happy Meal. Frankly it's pathetic.

I think tooboredtowork has nailed it on the head. It's no disrespect to McCaw to say that he's come up against players who have, for a time, given a threat to his dominance. Indeed, it's a disrespect to those players like Smith, Broussow, Pocock, Dusatoir etc to say they haven't go the better of him at times. But thanks to those players McAwe (I'm using it boomeranga!) has had to refine his play and adapt to the tough players he has come up against and in the long run has prevailed.

It's not a slight on the player to say he's had his match or came off second best in certain exchanges. The true measure of a player is how he responds to those occasions and where he stands in the long run. McCaw has constantly been refining his play because he's had different back row partners and has come up against some incredible players. No harm in saying there was a time when Smith gave McAwe a run for his money just as other players did before or since. But who has stood the test of time is not in doubt. kia kaha

I agree too bored... rugby is a team sport, its not boxing or tennis so the relative worth of 2 players will always be opinion based, in fact even if one player is better than another, it doesn't mean his value to his side is less.

McCaw came onto the scene a year or so later and only hit his full stride in 03-04 no? By then he was ahead and has been since.

Very true. Plus he's already the winningest player in history. He also is young enough to have another couple of years in him-years that could sway my opinion in favour of McCaw over Jones. He's definitely up for a 'best player ever' nomination once he hangs up his boots.

2003 Smith got the better of him in the semi. Then Dusautoir did in 07. Spanning his career he generally got the better of his opposite 9 times out of 10 but those WC losses were the ones people would focus on I guess-well that and 09. I know Dusautoir was the best player on the park in the 11 final but McCaw leading the team on one leg under the cosh was pretty damn influential too.

I always thought whenever teams got the better of McCaw it was because they changed their game plan to counter his threat and almost always it was a team effort.