Good teams push other good teams to be better

Where would Batman be without the Joker? To be a convincing hero, you need a convincing villain. The protagonist in a film is driven by the conflict arising from the antagonist. There is never a linear progression towards the climax of the film. Each character has its fair share of minor victories and failures and in between there are major reversals of fortune.

In film, the protagonist, who finds himself in a complex world of different characters, is always going to be pitted against certain individuals who test the hero. At times they may get the better of him and even throw him into doubt or despair.

The same applies in rugby. You're going to find that your team comes up against certain teams who ask searching questions. Other teams you may find easier to toy with or manipulate. But every so often you need a team (or more) that throws a spanner in your works. Makes you question your tactics, your players or your execution. And just like in a film, you actually need that to happen.

Why? Because if the status quo remains the same, you lose interest or you stagnate. You need somebody to expose your weaknesses and call into question your strengths. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Only by vowing to improve and defeat your antagonist can you hope to show personal growth.

NZ, for example, was exposed by SA in 2009. We lost all 3 games to them. We didn't learn that we needed to catch the high ball and not run the ball from everywhere. We needed to be smart about when to attack. What happened? We said goodbye to wingers like Joe Rokocoko who couldn't be relied on under the high ball and brought in players like Corey Jane who didn't have the speed or footwork of players like Big Joe but who could be relied on to do the job of what was asked of them. Go a little back further and France exposed what an aggressive defence that shut down our attack could do. Even further back and Australia in the late 90s asked us to look deep inside and own up to our failings in the set piece and shore up our scrum and lineout.

So, in your opinion, what team have you learned from the most in recent times or has at least given you the most to think about your game and made you a better team for it. Here's the way I see it.

For NZ it's a difficult one as different teams have tested us at different times and in different ways. But when you think about our game and our strengths and weaknesses I think consistently SA has asked the most questions of NZ. In recent years we have been attack minded. But that is always to be countered by putting in the right performance up front. The platform comes from the set piece and our forwards lay the platform for making us attack at the right moments. In order to do that we've needed to put an emphasis on our lineouts, scrum and the breakdown to achieve that platform.

For Australia, NZ has been their arch villain in recent times. Able to more than compete in the backline stakes, they have often been found wanting in the physical stakes up front. NZ has been like a big brother holding out his shorter brother at arm's length and punched them repeatedly in the face. What to do when faced with that? Learn how to fight smart and make the most of your own strengths.

For SA, I think Australia has given them the most to think about. Not because they feel inferior to Australia but because they have found an annoying knack in recent times to lose to them. NZ is capable of bringing out the best and the worst in SA but Australia has the advantage of inflicting psychological wounds. We shouldn't lose to this team and yet we do. When you start that searching of your inner soul to find the answers, you might not get the answer straight away but you at least recognise that there is a problem.

For England, though they got the better of them in this year's 6N, Ireland has been their antagonist. Balance in the selections, particularly in the forwards, has to be exactly right. When you come up against a team that can throw everything against you and make you look shell shocked, you look at ways of countering that. Pressure can be exerted with or without the ball and Ireland for me has taught England that lesson more often than not in recent times.

For Wales, it's easy to say but Australia has given them the most heartbreak in recent times. Not because they have been beaten but because they know they could've won many of the games they lost. Do you question the tactics or do you question the execution and decision making at critical times? England may be the arch villain but Wales have enough memorable victories over them to give them hope for their next encounter. Australia, on the other hand, ask different questions of Wales and for that reason are their true antagonists.

For France, England have proven to be the one that has asked of them the most questions. Every time they look like their selections are spot on and the performance has lifted, England has found a way to overcome them. They have failed spectacularly against Italy a couple of times and Wales broke the drought playing away to them this year but it's their inability to get the wood over England that keeps them up at night (suit you sir!).

For Ireland, Wales in recent times have been that team that has caused them to think about themselves long and hard. (Oh!) They may have put in a fantastic first half and ultimately beat Wales this year but the demons were there to be seen in the second half and these matches have been informative for Ireland as well as thoroughly entertaining.

For Scotland, I'm not so sure but I'd hazard a guess Italy has been their antagonist team. Blessed with a similar makeup, they often cancel themselves out front. Scotland beat them this year playing a game that had previously deserted them against Italy: a running, attacking one. When faced with a similar side, what do you do? Try to play better than your opponent or do you try to do something different? Accentuate your own strengths or punish your opponent's weaknesses.

So feel free to disagree with my choices or the whole premise. I'd be interested in what you have to say about Argentina, Italy and the PI teams.

Australia has become accustomed to outsmart us, they manage to gain penalties with weaker scrums, they manage to manipulate referees at breakdowns, we're simply too stupid to change.

Or have been BB. Maybe a plot reversal is coming again your way like at home last year. Didn't look too stupid then.  

I feel that where Ireland has to improve is against France . I still dont really understand how we got away with 2 draws in the last 6N.

That's a fair call whocares. There is a lot of similarity between France and Ireland in terms of the team composition but France holds a clear advantage in the results.

whocares wrote:I feel that where Ireland has to improve is against France . I still dont really understand how we got away with 2 draws in the last 6N.

For some reason we just can beat them. Its like we think we are beat before the ball is kicked.

I'd say England's team would be Wales? Although they've beaten Wales 3 times since 2007, there genuinely seems to be a reversal in the 'mental belief' of these two teams when they face one another. No longer are Wales the plucky underdogs, but often the favourites, and they've nailed that fact home impressively with two consecutive wins when they were expected to do so. I'd say that's come primarily, if not solely, from Gatland discovering and nurturing an international pack, traditionally England's place of utter dominance over Wales.

It's definitely a possibility. Wales seemed better prepared or at least in better form when they faced England this year. England have grown their backline play but they have always played their best when their pack has an edge. They struggle against teams who provide resistance in the pack. Until this year I thought Ireland did a more consistent job of containing the English pack than Wales have managed. SA are another possibility obviously in that regard.

miaow wrote:I'd say England's team would be Wales? Although they've beaten Wales 3 times since 2007, there genuinely seems to be a reversal in the 'mental belief' of these two teams when they face one another. No longer are Wales the plucky underdogs, but often the favourites, and they've nailed that fact home impressively with two consecutive wins when they were expected to do so. I'd say that's come primarily, if not solely, from Gatland discovering and nurturing an international pack, traditionally England's place of utter dominance over Wales.

Maybe so if you have only watched rugby since 1990, previously England hardly ever won in Cardiff. Even very good England teams playing at home rarely beat Wales.

I genuinely think for England it's cyclical & depends on form/injuries.

Eg. Results against Wales both teams have won 56. England are going through a time of many squad changes & to have achieved the results that SL has given those changes is pretty good (performances just ok).

England do seem to hold the 'gypsy kiss' over France recently though but one could point to the many squad changes that France had.

It's no coincidence a settled squad produces settled fixtures generally.
The problem with England was they held onto their 2002 squad for too long & paid the consequences.

Q. Have SH teams pushed Wales to be better?

As far as learning from mistakes I'm sure SL will not play a 6 at 8 & FB on the wing again anytime soon!

For England I'd say our biggest weakness now is physicality. We have struggled for years to match up to the physicality and intensity of SA and NZ (as well as Ireland and Wales at points).

SA in particular have blown us out of the water in the physicality department in the last few AI's and summer tour, and it's not just in the pack but in the backs as well. Nearly every game has been a lesson in aggression and we just can't match them.

Last year though we were a lot closer to the Boks and hopefully with a new crop of more physical players coming in to the EPS this'll begin to change. Players like Corbs, Webber, Morgan, Attwood, Farrell, Tuilangi and Yarde should all help to combat the power game employed by other teams.

[quote="maestegmafia"]

miaow wrote:Maybe so if you have only watched rugby since 1990, previously England hardly ever won in Cardiff. Even very good England teams playing at home rarely beat Wales.

In all fairness I was born in 1991...

miaow wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

miaow wrote:Maybe so if you have only watched rugby since 1990, previously England hardly ever won in Cardiff. Even very good England teams playing at home rarely beat Wales.

In all fairness I was born in 1991...

Well hopefully you were too young to have seen the worst of it. We lost loads of top players to league in the late eighties and our international game fell to pieces. It has taken twenty years to start to recover.

From 1949 - 1989 Wales lost nine games to England. When England beat Wales in 1991 in Cardiff that was the first time that England had won in Wales since 1963.

miaow wrote:I'd say England's team would be Wales? Although they've beaten Wales 3 times since 2007, there genuinely seems to be a reversal in the 'mental belief' of these two teams when they face one another. No longer are Wales the plucky underdogs, but often the favourites, and they've nailed that fact home impressively with two consecutive wins when they were expected to do so. I'd say that's come primarily, if not solely, from Gatland discovering and nurturing an international pack, traditionally England's place of utter dominance over Wales.

Wales won the last two games but didn't England win the two before that? It's still pretty 50:50 between England and Wales at the moment (over several years). Each are winning a few games against the other. I think this year was the most comprehensive out of the all. Whereas against Ireland since 2003 we've only won a couple of times in total. We've done better in the last few years as Ireland have collapsed but I still expect us to lose every game against them.

HammerofThunor wrote:

miaow wrote:I'd say England's team would be Wales? Although they've beaten Wales 3 times since 2007, there genuinely seems to be a reversal in the 'mental belief' of these two teams when they face one another. No longer are Wales the plucky underdogs, but often the favourites, and they've nailed that fact home impressively with two consecutive wins when they were expected to do so. I'd say that's come primarily, if not solely, from Gatland discovering and nurturing an international pack, traditionally England's place of utter dominance over Wales.

Wales won the last two games but didn't England win the two before that? It's still pretty 50:50 between England and Wales at the moment (over several years). Each are winning a few games against the other. I think this year was the most comprehensive out of the all. Whereas against Ireland since 2003 we've only won a couple of times in total. We've done better in the last few years as Ireland have collapsed but I still expect us to lose every game against them.

Definitely as the Miaow say's "they've beaten Wales 3 times since 2007".

16 March 2013 Millennium Stadium 30 – 3 Wales 2013 Six Nations
14 April 2012 Twickenham Stadium 12 – 19 Wales 2012 Six Nations
13 August 2011 Millennium Stadium 19 – 9 Wales 2011 Rugby World Cup warm-up test
6 August 2011 Twickenham 23 – 19 England 2011 Rugby World Cup warm-up test
4 February 2011 Millennium Stadium 19 – 26 England 2011 Six Nations
6 February 2010 Twickenham 30 – 17 England 2010 Six Nations
14 February 2009 Millennium Stadium 23 – 15 Wales 2009 Six Nations
2 February 2008 Twickenham 19 – 26 Wales 2008 Six Nations

 England always glad to beat Wales at any time, although lost last 2 of course.
But no it's not Wales. England's nemesis is definitely South Africa.
Give us the hardest match ups of the lot.

Yeah, I'd agree, for pretty much every NH team their 'nemesis' in terms of a team that beats them every time would be a SH team, and is probably NZ, SA, Australia in that order (France, typically, buck the trend, and England beating NZ in November doesn't help...).

I was merely stating that I think the England team is perhaps developing something of a mental block when it comes to Wales, displayed emphatically in the MS this year. It's probably in part due to the consistency of the selection of the Welsh pack, which has seen players like AWJ, Gethin, Adam, and Ryan Jones there from '08, and then it's topped up by the young back row and quality replacements since '08 like Hibbard and Ken Owens. The England team tried to build towards the '11 WC, but before then, and since, there seems to be too many changes year on year over the whole team for them to have any familiarity. When up against a settled Welsh pack, perhaps there's an element of "even though it wasn't me here last year, I saw what these guys did to the man who I replaced", and not the same togetherness as Wales has. There was certainly an element of that in Twickenham in 2012, perhaps not directly from receiving a pasting, but the fact that England were in flux and Wales coming off the back of an impressive WC. Although England matched the Welsh physicality, it's mad to think in only a few years from regularly getting pasted by England up front, Wales went into the game in England's back yard as the favoured pack, Jiffy's comments being slightly hyperbolic.

If Wales beat England away again next year, and maybe then at home in the '15 6N, you can expect the WC group game to be even more nerve-wracking for England. Not so sure that will happen, especially with the depth Lancaster is building, but there is the foundation of fear for England when it comes to facing Wales that would never have been there pre-'08. In '07 they got to a World Cup final almost solely due to an iron mental attitude created from getting nilled! Other teams would kill for that attribute, summed up by Dallaglio. For some reason the England players since have displayed little of the bullish conviction that I'd typically associate with them. Perhaps professionalism has levelled the playing field, where once public school-bred players were far better prepared than those who came through the amateur club system, including psychological confidence. I really don't know.

Good question, Kia, and I would tend to agree.
However, I remember reading about a Scottish player who (now, I know you will find this very hard to believe) showed a mind set that didn't help.
Apparently, one Autumn Series, we had a narrow lead over Canada and went on to win the game. We had a larger advantage over SA but lost the game. This player (I can't remember who it was) said that they knew they would beat Canada but they went in at half time against SA expecting to be on the receiving end of an onslaught in the second half which they would struggle to withstand. And he was right.

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

miaow wrote:I'd say England's team would be Wales? Although they've beaten Wales 3 times since 2007, there genuinely seems to be a reversal in the 'mental belief' of these two teams when they face one another. No longer are Wales the plucky underdogs, but often the favourites, and they've nailed that fact home impressively with two consecutive wins when they were expected to do so. I'd say that's come primarily, if not solely, from Gatland discovering and nurturing an international pack, traditionally England's place of utter dominance over Wales.

Wales won the last two games but didn't England win the two before that? It's still pretty 50:50 between England and Wales at the moment (over several years). Each are winning a few games against the other. I think this year was the most comprehensive out of the all. Whereas against Ireland since 2003 we've only won a couple of times in total. We've done better in the last few years as Ireland have collapsed but I still expect us to lose every game against them.

Definitely as the Miaow say's "they've beaten Wales 3 times since 2007".

16 March 2013 Millennium Stadium 30 – 3 Wales 2013 Six Nations
14 April 2012 Twickenham Stadium 12 – 19 Wales 2012 Six Nations
13 August 2011 Millennium Stadium 19 – 9 Wales 2011 Rugby World Cup warm-up test
6 August 2011 Twickenham 23 – 19 England 2011 Rugby World Cup warm-up test
4 February 2011 Millennium Stadium 19 – 26 England 2011 Six Nations
6 February 2010 Twickenham 30 – 17 England 2010 Six Nations
14 February 2009 Millennium Stadium 23 – 15 Wales 2009 Six Nations
2 February 2008 Twickenham 19 – 26 Wales 2008 Six Nations

 So in the 6 nations between world cups.
Between 2003 and 2007 Wales won 2 England won 2. Between 2007 and 2011 Wales won 2 England won 2. Between 2011 and 2015 (so far) Wales won 2 England won 0. So pretty 50:50, especially if England win their next home game.

Compare that with us losing 7 out of 8 games against Ireland.

HammerofThunor wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

miaow wrote:I'd say England's team would be Wales? Although they've beaten Wales 3 times since 2007, there genuinely seems to be a reversal in the 'mental belief' of these two teams when they face one another. No longer are Wales the plucky underdogs, but often the favourites, and they've nailed that fact home impressively with two consecutive wins when they were expected to do so. I'd say that's come primarily, if not solely, from Gatland discovering and nurturing an international pack, traditionally England's place of utter dominance over Wales.

Wales won the last two games but didn't England win the two before that? It's still pretty 50:50 between England and Wales at the moment (over several years). Each are winning a few games against the other. I think this year was the most comprehensive out of the all. Whereas against Ireland since 2003 we've only won a couple of times in total. We've done better in the last few years as Ireland have collapsed but I still expect us to lose every game against them.

Definitely as the Miaow say's "they've beaten Wales 3 times since 2007".

16 March 2013 Millennium Stadium 30 – 3 Wales 2013 Six Nations
14 April 2012 Twickenham Stadium 12 – 19 Wales 2012 Six Nations
13 August 2011 Millennium Stadium 19 – 9 Wales 2011 Rugby World Cup warm-up test
6 August 2011 Twickenham 23 – 19 England 2011 Rugby World Cup warm-up test
4 February 2011 Millennium Stadium 19 – 26 England 2011 Six Nations
6 February 2010 Twickenham 30 – 17 England 2010 Six Nations
14 February 2009 Millennium Stadium 23 – 15 Wales 2009 Six Nations
2 February 2008 Twickenham 19 – 26 Wales 2008 Six Nations

 So in the 6 nations between world cups.
Between 2003 and 2007 Wales won 2 England won 2. Between 2007 and 2011 Wales won 2 England won 2. Between 2011 and 2015 (so far) Wales won 2 England won 0. So pretty 50:50, especially if England win their next home game.

Compare that with us losing 7 out of 8 games against Ireland.

I did not know that your recent record was even worse against Ireland than it is against Wales where it is not in the slightest 50/50 as you have only won three games in eight... As shown clearly above.

Even if you remove the RWC warm up games you still lost more to Wales than you won by four to two, which is again no where near 50/50...!

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

miaow wrote:I'd say England's team would be Wales? Although they've beaten Wales 3 times since 2007, there genuinely seems to be a reversal in the 'mental belief' of these two teams when they face one another. No longer are Wales the plucky underdogs, but often the favourites, and they've nailed that fact home impressively with two consecutive wins when they were expected to do so. I'd say that's come primarily, if not solely, from Gatland discovering and nurturing an international pack, traditionally England's place of utter dominance over Wales.

Wales won the last two games but didn't England win the two before that? It's still pretty 50:50 between England and Wales at the moment (over several years). Each are winning a few games against the other. I think this year was the most comprehensive out of the all. Whereas against Ireland since 2003 we've only won a couple of times in total. We've done better in the last few years as Ireland have collapsed but I still expect us to lose every game against them.

Definitely as the Miaow say's "they've beaten Wales 3 times since 2007".

16 March 2013 Millennium Stadium 30 – 3 Wales 2013 Six Nations
14 April 2012 Twickenham Stadium 12 – 19 Wales 2012 Six Nations
13 August 2011 Millennium Stadium 19 – 9 Wales 2011 Rugby World Cup warm-up test
6 August 2011 Twickenham 23 – 19 England 2011 Rugby World Cup warm-up test
4 February 2011 Millennium Stadium 19 – 26 England 2011 Six Nations
6 February 2010 Twickenham 30 – 17 England 2010 Six Nations
14 February 2009 Millennium Stadium 23 – 15 Wales 2009 Six Nations
2 February 2008 Twickenham 19 – 26 Wales 2008 Six Nations

 So in the 6 nations between world cups.
Between 2003 and 2007 Wales won 2 England won 2. Between 2007 and 2011 Wales won 2 England won 2. Between 2011 and 2015 (so far) Wales won 2 England won 0. So pretty 50:50, especially if England win their next home game.

Compare that with us losing 7 out of 8 games against Ireland.

I did not know that your recent record was even worse against Ireland than it is against Wales where it is not in the slightest 50/50 as you have only won three games in eight... As shown clearly above.

Even if you remove the RWC warm up games you still lost more to Wales than you won by four to two, which is again no where near 50/50...!

TBF, 3/8 is actually pretty close to 50-50. Not that I'm happy with 3/8, mind

I think Australia taught NZ to be smarter in attack. South Africa taught them to eschew a second strike winger in favour of a second fullback, and England taught NZ to win ugly. Really ugly. But effective (2011). France taught the importance of the dropped goal, wales tuned up the scrum and Ireland and OGara sorted out the line out.

A truly global effort. Well done, all!

Oh and Scotland brought the virtues of not wearing grey to a World Cup.

That's right, GE. Our results when not wearing grey can only make every country envious

Better record against SH opposition than any other home nation, with the exception of England...

You must be joking?! We get pumped by NZ every time and get regular doing's from SA. Admittedly our recent record against Aus is good but surely Wales and Ireland must have better records over the whole piece?

Scotland drew with the ABs more recently than Wales or Ireland.

Is that right? I was at that game - it feels like it was centuries ago!

Yeah, Ireland 10 all in 1973 and Scotland 25 all in 1983 I think. Wales last won in 1953. What is it about years that end in 3?

England won in 1973, 1983, 1993, 2003 and 2013.

Also Wales have only beaten South Africa once and you've beaten them more recently as well. It's the 6 nations you lose to  and Pacific Islanders

And when that Scottish player came on for the Lions, 30 seconds later, the Lions beat Australia by a record margin!

Now you mention it and put it like that, all you other home countries are pish. Bow down before the rugby behemoth that is Scotland, you underlings
I don't pay any attention to 6N or PI nation results - these games are mere warm up's to our main role in life of making the NH have a less kak record against the SH teams by repeatedly beating them.
Get off our coat tails ,Wales and Ireland.

Plus you have the best tartan (if only you'd wear it), man-skirts, shortbread, cat based instruments and whiskey. What a fricken country. We don't celebrate it nearly enough.

And tablet. Never forget tablet