Schumacher's achievements at Ferrari

First topic message reminder :

In light of Alonso's frustrations at Ferrari, do Schumacher's achievements there seem even more impressive? Alonso is a great driver but for some reason he has not been able to achieve the same as Schumacher did at Ferrari. Why was Schumacher able to take the team from a midfield team to a championship winning one in a way that alonso has been unable to? Surely Ferrari are treating alonso as the number 1 driver, was it just that Schumacher was better at organising a team around himself, was it that he gave better feedback after testing or was it just luck?

cosicave wrote:I avoided mentioning a current driver who I believe actually does fit the definition!

Pure driving genius - come on it's obvious - Lets Have it!!

Perhaps StevieG.

However, he was a serial cheat however you look at it and that totally washes away the genius factor for me. I don't look at Ben Johnson, Linford Christie or Lance Armstrong in the same light now as a cheat is a cheat - nothing more nothing less. Okay he doesn't lie in the same category as them but the principle is the same. Break the rules to succeed.

I know Schumacher did break the rules but it was never pre-planned it was always when he was under pressure and when he could see his dreams slipping away from him. I think cheating would pass through a lot if people's minds if they put themselves under that amount of pressure and had that amount if desire to win. His times that cheated were always split second decisions- crashing into hill and villneuve were not pre planned not was parking his car at Monaco ? I think alot of people have the instinct to cheat much more so then they admit

Sorry for typos above- predictive text!

Sorry but I don't buy that. As fast as he was for his calculated driving he was callous with his calculated decision making. As I recall it he was in close proximity of Hill for several laps before taking him off and repeated the move against Villeneuve. He was also black flagged for using banned technology, famously in qualifying parked his car on the exit of the final corner at Monaco late in qualifying to protect the pole time he had set. I could go on if you wish?

Checking back it would seem Schumacher's tyres were going off and Hill was all set to overtake him and put him in a title winning position. Rather than yield as Hill moved up the racing line on the inside to overtake, Schumacher drove into him and took them both out of the race. Clinical is how I would describe it.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Perhaps StevieG.

However, he was a serial cheat however you look at it and that totally washes away the genius factor for me. I don't look at Ben Johnson, Linford Christie or Lance Armstrong in the same light now as a cheat is a cheat - nothing more nothing less. Okay he doesn't lie in the same category as them but the principle is the same. Break the rules to succeed.

He witheld information rather than taking a drug to make him better than he actually is so your analogy is a bit skewered. And in my book so long as it's not performance enhancing then cheating deflects from sportsmanship but not from actual genius which to me is a natual ability that you either have or don't have.

Schumacher was a genius with a win at all costs attitude.

SteveG wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Perhaps StevieG.

However, he was a serial cheat however you look at it and that totally washes away the genius factor for me. I don't look at Ben Johnson, Linford Christie or Lance Armstrong in the same light now as a cheat is a cheat - nothing more nothing less. Okay he doesn't lie in the same category as them but the principle is the same. Break the rules to succeed.

He witheld information rather than taking a drug to make him better than he actually is so your analogy is a bit skewered. And in my book so long as it's not performance enhancing then cheating deflects from sportsmanship but not from actual genius which to me is a natual ability that you either have or don't have.

I did say he never lay in the same category did I not? In my books a cheat is someone who breaks the rules and code of sportsmanship to win and Schumacher has done this on multiple occasions. For me that just undone all his good work as I prefer the geniuses without cheating in their CV's.

Although Schumacher does have question marks over some aspects of his career I think all the drivers of note have done something to taint their legacy... Damon Hill asking Jordan to not let ralf overtake him at spa I case they took each other off, senna taking Prost off, alonso making the team tell massa to let him through and the staged crash incident and the time he delayed Hamilton in qualifying so he couldn't set a laptime, I agree it's not pretty to see but I think all great sportsmen have this edge or desire to win at all costs that blurs the line between sporting and unsporting behaviour for them. It's like the cost of being a genius has to come with an uglier side too?

Agreed there that others do have questions over them but Schumacher took it stages too far - champion driver but champion at cheating as well compared to even the others you mention sikh.

Agreed he took everything beyond their acceptable limits; racing getting the best out of his team and the car but also the rules. He still has to rate as an excellent driver perhaps not the best of all time but the best I've seen so far.

I am not taking anything away from his driving ability though.

Is this discussion still going on..

CaledonianCraig wrote:

SteveG wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Perhaps StevieG.

However, he was a serial cheat however you look at it and that totally washes away the genius factor for me. I don't look at Ben Johnson, Linford Christie or Lance Armstrong in the same light now as a cheat is a cheat - nothing more nothing less. Okay he doesn't lie in the same category as them but the principle is the same. Break the rules to succeed.

He witheld information rather than taking a drug to make him better than he actually is so your analogy is a bit skewered. And in my book so long as it's not performance enhancing then cheating deflects from sportsmanship but not from actual genius which to me is a natual ability that you either have or don't have.

I did say he never lay in the same category did I not? In my books a cheat is someone who breaks the rules and code of sportsmanship to win and Schumacher has done this on multiple occasions. For me that just undone all his good work as I prefer the geniuses without cheating in their CV's.

think wer're getting our wires crossed Craig - was talking about LH not MS.

How can adherence to rules have any bearing on talent assessment? The two have nothing to do with each other, it's muddled.

It can determine how we reflect on that person regardless of talent. Indiscretions in ones life such as cheating, doping, lying or other suchlikes dampens ones respect.

CaledonianCraig wrote:It can determine how we reflect on that person regardless of talent. Indiscretions in ones life such as cheating, doping, lying or other suchlikes dampens ones respect.

Yes, but we were talking about his talent, not whether you liked him.

I realised you were talking about how you felt about him all long.

And I have referred to his talent so I made that clear as well but that is washed away by his other 'antics' as happens in everyday life. Many sportsmen have blighted their persona by things the do in their career and that is the case here. You can by all means compartmentalise things and say he was a great driver and leave it at that but look at Schumacher - the whole package and then things become a heck of a lot different.

So bad behaviour neutralises your talent?

Wow. I didn't know it was a popularity contest.

bogbrush wrote:So bad behaviour neutralises your talent?

Wow. I didn't know it was a popularity contest.

No it just totally alters ones perception of them. Do you think Oscar Petorius will be remembered with fondness and praised if he is found guilty? Of course not. John McEnroe was loathed because of his on-court antics, Lester Piggott was the greatest jockey of all-time but fell from grace for tax evasion and isn't seen in the same light and so it goes on.