When will Zebre win a match?

First topic message reminder :

29 losses on the bounce and not so much as a draw but still (under current rules) worthy of an EC place.

Surely this is a joke side.

beshocked wrote:Brendan I suppose it depends what you see the Amlin and HC as.

I don't see the HC as a development competition.

I do understand your view point - as a Pro12 fan you believe in HC rugby being handed to Pro12 sides on a platter with little to no qualification needed. You want to keep your nice juicy cake. Anyone who wants to perhaps re-balance things is seen as greedy and in the wrong.

The Amlin is a development competition. It is a 2nd tier competition more suitable for helping the likes of Spanish and Romanian teams. Next you'll be telling me you want those sides in the HC.


You want to keep the status quo because it heavily favours the Pro12 sides despite the vast majority being poor in the HC.

Alasbut100ofus it's odd that you are willing to insult your own club, Exeter.

What is 'odd' about that? Am I not permitted to reach my own conclusions, or must I toe the corporate line?

The point is. Yes if you see this as 3 leagues and an exclusively club oriented competition then Zebre should not be in there.

This and other related issues (some true some not) are exploited by the PRL bosses in an attempted grab at money and control.

A lot of English fans seem to be taken in by this and see the (somewhat justified) claims of unfairness as the main issue. They are not.

If you see the Erc as a group of 6 unions with an added international dimention above the HC then most of the issues you complain about make a lot less sense.

If you don't give a flying fock about the 6nations (which Prl don't) Then by all means let's go with their proposals. Just don't come crying to me when it is a 4 nations and intl rugby in the NH is focked.

Could I also add that the 6 nations makes a lot more money than the HC.

For thos of you who feel it's all about money.

You can reach your own conclusions of course. You are entitled to your opinion. I suppose your loyalties are torn between Scotland and Exeter. In this case you've backed Scotland.

I do completely understand the Pro12 point of view. Pro12 fans enjoy things as they are. 11 out of 12 Pro12 clubs in the HC is almost a perfect situation. The English clubs for example are seen as nasty for wanting to challenge this. I don't think it is wrong of English clubs to want to change a situation that heavily favours Pro12 clubs despite them underperforming in the HC.

Zebre are one of the sides I believe should be in the Amlin as things stand. That of course makes me unreasonable doesn't it?

beshocked wrote:You can reach your own conclusions of course. You are entitled to your opinion. I suppose your loyalties are torn between Scotland and Exeter. In this case you've backed Scotland.

I do completely understand the Pro12 point of view. Pro12 fans enjoy things as they are. 11 out of 12 Pro12 clubs in the HC is almost a perfect situation. The English clubs for example are seen as nasty for wanting to challenge this. I don't think it is wrong of English clubs to want to change a situation that heavily favours Pro12 clubs despite them underperforming in the HC.

Zebre are one of the sides I believe should be in the Amlin as things stand. That of course makes me unreasonable doesn't it?

doesn't make you unreasonable at all. just perhaps unaware of the big picture.

When looked at as a purely club compitition I would agree with most of what is said about fairness and equality between 3 leagues. If international rugby did not exist.

beshocked wrote:You can reach your own conclusions of course. You are entitled to your opinion. I suppose your loyalties are torn between Scotland and Exeter. In this case you've backed Scotland.

I do completely understand the Pro12 point of view. Pro12 fans enjoy things as they are. 11 out of 12 Pro12 clubs in the HC is almost a perfect situation. The English clubs for example are seen as nasty for wanting to challenge this.  I don't think it is wrong of English clubs to want to change a situation that heavily favours Pro12 clubs despite them underperforming in the HC.

Zebre are one of the sides I believe should be in the Amlin as things stand. That of course makes me unreasonable doesn't it?

Perhaps I just attempted to understand the facts and reached my own conclusions, regardless of my nationality or club allegiance? I wouldn't say it makes you 'unreasonable' (that comes with the Sarries' support! ) given where you are coming from, i.e. you see European club competition as being the aegis of clubs. Unfortunately, it isn't tho, it is the unions play thing - so from the standpoint of where we are right now, you would simply be wrong! On a slight aside, interesting piece in TRP at the weekend about the future of European competition, and the possibility of going ahead without the English clubs; and on a further, more distant aside, interesting to note the unhappiness of AP referees with PRL's meddling in their affairs, ultimately leading to the resignation of the highly-respected Ed Morrison

With regard to the legitmacy of Zebre or anyone else to get into the HEC based on nationality rather than performance, how would the AP/PRL deal with a takeover of an Italian or Scottish club by a Roman Abramovich figure who bought in a lot of talent and started making them compete seriously in the RABO and HEC - would it be to welcome this exciting new development in European rugby or would they be chuntering about salary caps and it's not fair?

You Pro12 fans want it both ways - if Leinster win the HC for example it's a victory for the Pro12.  Counting yourselves as individual countries only when it is convenient.


Even if you use the country card - it's still 100% representation for Italy,Ireland and Scotland in the HC. Wales only has 75% representation I admit but it's more than the English and French representation as %.

alasbut100ofus and jenifer this is where we disagree. You see the HC and Pro12 as development competitions. I agree the Pro12 is. I think the HC is more than that.

Particularly for the Welsh, internationals take precedence over the club game. It's perhaps a reason why they perform poorly in the HC and why their clubs have poor structures.

English clubs do care more about the club game than their Pro12 colleagues. It's why the AP is a more serious league and more intense. It's why most of the time when it comes to the HC, the Pro12 clubs in general can't match the English and French. It helps that less English clubs lose players in the IW. 12 clubs supply 1 international side is far easier than 12 clubs supplying 4 international sides.

The Irish are an exception of course. They take the HC more seriously than most of their Pro12 colleagues. Local derbies are even staged just before the HC to help them prepare for their bread and butter. They also have better support and a better structure than their counterparts.

It's the Irish that have spared Pro12 blushes in the HC but will it continue I wonder?

Underneath all this I feel a deep sadness and fear - the AP teams and to an extent then French are slowly but surely following the Premiership football model where the top (richest) teams have control of the domestic and European competitions and like it's football predecessor it will become a plaything for a few wealthy teams and the rest there to make up the numbers, Leicester, Saracens, Quins and maybe one or two others will benefit from this but the professional game in the north of England will go to hell, there will be another round of bloodletting that will see the end of teams like Wasps and London Irish who don't have stadiums and the remaining side will be there to pick up the crumbs from the rich mans table.
Then the PRL clubs will work out that no-one is interested in one side donestic games and will see the solution not as a more level playing field but to play more glamourous games more often and start to shut out the rest, "they can go in the Amlin" and have to pre-qualify for the big boys games. In a few years there'll be a Euro Super League of the English and French and maybe the Saffers will join the party, meanwhile the rest of the BI and Europe will become a professional rugby desert apart from a few players in the "big League".
And of course the international game will suffer, the 6Ns and the Lions will recede into history as the Home Internationals did in football, and the big clubs management and fans will complain constantly about the time their players are on international duty and start threatening to withdraw them if they don't get their way in this area as well.
There's a storm coming and I don't think the people in charge know what they are doing - or even worse know exactly what they are doing.

Don't be putting words in my mouth. I don't see the HC as a development competition. It's the pinacle of European club rugby.

On one hand we only care about it and don't care about our league. (which we have been in the top 3 of for the last 10 years. what a feat for a team that don't care about their league)

On the other hand we see the hc as a development comp? which is it?

Btw the Welsh perform badly in the HC these days because all their best players are in France and England.

They get them back for intl rugby.

Don't know what their excuse was before.

beshocked wrote:You Pro12 fans want it both ways - if Leinster win the HC for example it's a victory for the Pro12.  Counting yourselves as individual countries only when it is convenient.


Even if you use the country card - it's still 100% representation for Italy,Ireland and Scotland in the HC. Wales only has 75% representation I admit but it's more than the English and French representation as %.

alasbut100ofus and jenifer this is where we disagree. You see the HC and Pro12 as development competitions. I agree the Pro12 is. I think the HC is more than that.

Particularly for the Welsh, internationals take precedence over the club game. It's perhaps a reason why they perform poorly in the HC and why their clubs have poor structures.

English clubs do care more about the club game than their Pro12 colleagues. It's why the AP is a more serious league and more intense. It's why most of the time when it comes to the HC, the Pro12 clubs in general can't match the English and French. It helps that less English clubs lose players in the IW. 12 clubs supply 1 international side is far easier than 12 clubs supplying 4 international sides.

The Irish are an exception of course. They take the HC more seriously than most of their Pro12 colleagues. Local derbies are even staged just before the HC to help them prepare for their bread and butter. They also have better support and a better structure than their counterparts.

It's the Irish that have spared Pro12 blushes in the HC but will it continue I wonder?

No, I don't - under my definition of a 'development' competition, I'd put the LV= Cup.  The leagues and the European cup competitions are there to promote the interests of their national teams - that is central to this whole debate.  If you don't agree with that, then I suspect that we will never see eye-to-eye. The league comp is for the clubs (or equivalent) of nations to play serious competitive league rugby week-in/week-out; the other is the highest level of cup competition in which top-flight European nations may enter their clubs.

PS The Irish only have a guaranteed 75% representation too, it's just that they keep winning the damn thing!

London Wasps and London Irish are the ones to blame for not getting their own stadium.

When the league is lower intensity it's hardly surprising Leinster have been in the top 3 in the last 10 years. Leinster don't face full strength sides when they lose their international players. All 12 Pro12 sides lose players during IWs.


The top 4 for example in the AP are far more likely to face full strength lower table sides when losing international players. Makes games tougher.

The HC is the bread and butter for Leinster. Derby games against the likes of Ulster and Munster are also intense affairs. The rest....

Zebre's presence does have Franglo advantages in that almost inevitably the pool winner will progress to the semi-finals with the dumb EC rule granting home advantage for the one-off quarters.

Doubly so whilst there are stupid rules granting additional places granted to Unions ERC cup winners. Quadruply so if that additional team is also drawn with Zebre.

beshocked wrote:London Wasps and London Irish are the ones to blame for not getting their own stadium.

When the league is lower intensity it's hardly surprising Leinster have been in the top 3 in the last 10 years. Leinster don't face full strength sides when they lose their international players. All 12 Pro12 sides lose players during IWs.


The top 4 for example in the AP are far more likely to face full strength lower table sides when losing international players. Makes games tougher.

The HC is the bread and butter for Leinster. Derby games against the likes of Ulster and Munster are also intense affairs. The rest....

so why do you care so much about our league?

Not a lot we can do about having to supply 4 national teams. Not much we can do about relegation with nowhere to relegate to or promote from.

To have a 6 nations and a European club cup. Both sides will have to understand eachother's setups.

You don't appear to have much understanding of ours with your fixed oppinions.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Btw the Welsh perform badly in the HC these days because all their best players are in France and England.

They get them back for intl rugby.

Don't know what their excuse was before.

That's rubbish.

Of the starting XV who beat England - 13 played in Wales. Only Phillips and Jenkins playing in France.

Even with most of the grandslam winning side in 2008 in the HC for Ospreys they still couldn't beat the English underdogs in the quarter final. 

As I said. I don't know what their excuse was before.

So as a fan of English club and (i'm guessing) intl rugby. What do you propose for a club comp that won't affect the standard of the 6n?

What about the unfairness of wos warriors, irish and newcastle not having to do anything in europe yet still rob the big sides (tigers and sarries) of their money.

Lets be honest the top 4 sides in England would love to be in a top euro league but can't because of the PRL.

The good thing it is no longer the italians but more Zebre. I guess that treviso are now classed as a team accually fit for the HC. Atleast its progress.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:London Wasps and London Irish are the ones to blame for not getting their own stadium.

When the league is lower intensity  it's hardly surprising Leinster have been in the top 3 in the last 10 years. Leinster don't face full strength sides when they lose their international players. All 12 Pro12 sides lose players during IWs.


The top 4 for example in the AP are far more likely to face full strength lower table sides when losing international players. Makes games tougher.

The HC is the bread and butter for Leinster. Derby games against the likes of Ulster and Munster are also intense affairs. The rest....

so why do you care so much about our league?

Not a lot we can do about having to supply  4 national teams. Not much we can do about relegation with nowhere to relegate to or promote from.

To have a 6 nations and a European club cup. Both sides will have to understand eachother's setups.

You don't appear to have much understanding of ours with your fixed oppinions.

I agree there is not much you can do about supplying 4 national teams. It's to do with the structure of your competition.

No I don't have sympathy for virtual auto qualification. HC is what every club wants to play in yet for some places are handed on a platter.

If most of the Pro12 clubs were competitive, were desirable clubs to play in the HC there wouldn't be a problem. You would think that with virtual HC qualification Pro12 sides would do better in the competition.

The best of Scotland should surely be able to perform better than 1 win in 12 matches. Same with the best of Italy and Wales.

A concentration of players into a small number of clubs should lead to stronger sides.

Brendan wrote:What about the unfairness of wos warriors, irish and newcastle not having to do anything in europe yet still rob the big sides (tigers and sarries) of their money.

Lets be honest the top 4 sides in England would love to be in a top euro league but can't because of the PRL.

The good thing it is no longer the italians but more Zebre. I guess that treviso are now classed as a team accually fit for the HC. Atleast its progress.

that's because they recognize the principal of keeping their league competitive by having a wage cap and distributing their funds IN A LOCAL LEAGUE. But can't grasp applying it to the bigger picture.

beshocked wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:London Wasps and London Irish are the ones to blame for not getting their own stadium.

When the league is lower intensity  it's hardly surprising Leinster have been in the top 3 in the last 10 years. Leinster don't face full strength sides when they lose their international players. All 12 Pro12 sides lose players during IWs.


The top 4 for example in the AP are far more likely to face full strength lower table sides when losing international players. Makes games tougher.

The HC is the bread and butter for Leinster. Derby games against the likes of Ulster and Munster are also intense affairs. The rest....

so why do you care so much about our league?

Not a lot we can do about having to supply  4 national teams. Not much we can do about relegation with nowhere to relegate to or promote from.

To have a 6 nations and a European club cup. Both sides will have to understand eachother's setups.

You don't appear to have much understanding of ours with your fixed oppinions.

I agree there is not much you can do about supplying 4 national teams. It's to do with the structure of your competition.

No I don't have sympathy for virtual auto qualification. HC is what every club wants to play in yet for some places are handed on a platter.

If most of the Pro12 clubs were competitive, were desirable clubs to play in the HC there wouldn't be a problem. You would think that with virtual HC qualification Pro12 sides would do better in the competition.

The best of Scotland should surely be able to perform better than 1 win in 12 matches. Same with the best of Italy and Wales.

A concentration of players into a small number of clubs should lead to stronger sides.

The rabo is like the T14 where the home team usually wins. The T14 play nearly a different team away from home. Why don't you require them to play their main team each week.

It seems the two other leagues are used by their teams and unions to gain an advatage to win the HC and be fresher.

[quote="beshocked"]London Wasps and London Irish are the ones to blame for not getting their own stadium.

In fairness Beshocked they are both the victim of planning laws and NIMBYism than any reluctance to not get their own stadium - both clubs would love one but can't get permission to expand their traditional home and don't have the financial wherewithall to build a new one in the London/S East area. This is also the position Saracens would be in if they didn't have Mr Wray generously putting his hand in his pocket on a regular basis.

To build even a modest Stadium from scratch they would have to move even further out of London than they are now and of course the Stadium rules help the big boys - the clubs with no stadium have to spend a major part of income on rent and the rules keep all but the chosen few out of the AP.

Hold on. Now you are saying we should disband Zebre and Embra and merge them with Treviso and Glasgow?

Brendan those clubs would love to be in the HC getting the nice juicy revenue and experiences the underperforming weaker Pro12 clubs get.

Treviso have actually improved and made progress. If there was HC qualification they would have qualified on their own merits.

Some Pro12 fans don't seem to think Pro12 teams have a responsibility to actually improve.

Jenifer I don't think Edinburgh and Zebre in the Amlin would adversely affect them. It would be the large boot up the backside they need. They must improve. At the moment they have it far too easy.

Again. I have no problems with more fairness etween the leagues.

A/ if there was no international rugby

and

B/ if it was not just a smokescreen to get more money and power for the prl.

Irish Londoner wrote:

beshocked wrote:London Wasps and London Irish are the ones to blame for not getting their own stadium.

In fairness Beshocked they are both the victim of planning laws and NIMBYism than any reluctance to not get their own stadium - both clubs would love one but can't get permission to expand their traditional home and don't have the financial wherewithall to build a new one in the London/S East area. This is also the position Saracens would be in if they didn't have Mr Wray generously putting his hand in his pocket on a regular basis.

To build even a modest Stadium from scratch they would have to move even further out of London than they are now and of course the Stadium rules help the big boys - the clubs with no stadium have to spend a major part of income on rent and the rules keep all but the chosen few out of the AP.

I still think the stadium rule is stupid. On debt yes but as sarries have shown does it matter if they move around. There is always a free stadium in london to hold a game.

beshocked wrote:Brendan those clubs would love to be in the HC getting the nice juicy revenue and experiences the underperforming weaker Pro12 clubs get.

Treviso have actually improved and made progress. If there was HC qualification they would have qualified on their own merits.

Some Pro12 fans don't seem to think Pro12 teams have a responsibility to actually improve.

Jenifer I don't think Edinburgh and Zebre in the Amlin would adversely affect them. It would be the large boot up the backside they need. They must improve. At the moment they have it far too easy.

This is arrant nonsense. It is palpably clear to anyone with even an iota of understanding that the Pro12 has been improving as a tournament and a spectacle year-on-year since its introduction.

Jeebus, do I rue the day that the RFU unleashed the PRL on the rest of us!   Why couldn't they just deal with the spoiled kids themselves?

beshocked wrote:Brendan those clubs would love to be in the HC getting the nice juicy revenue and experiences the underperforming weaker Pro12 clubs get.

Treviso have actually improved and made progress. If there was HC qualification they would have qualified on their own merits.

Some Pro12 fans don't seem to think Pro12 teams have a responsibility to actually improve.

Jenifer I don't think Edinburgh and Zebre in the Amlin would adversely affect them. It would be the large boot up the backside they need. They must improve. At the moment they have it far too easy.

If each of the current rabo unions did something like this.
Some stage during the season each union had their own league made up of their rabo teams and the same number of club teams.
The top number of teams (eg ireland would be 4 from 8) so that the percent can be the same.  The only problem is that what would we do with the extra 4 irish 2 scots 4 welsh.

I think the rabo could do that BUT i hate to tell you you would be disappointed by the new teams you would have to accomadate.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:This is arrant nonsense.

Now there's a word you don't see every day.

No jenifer. I am saying that Glasgow are one of two professional clubs in Scotland. They and Edinburgh have most of the Scotland international side. With their international players (having that experience) you would expect them to perform better. Plus they have huge catchment areas - Glasgow has a population of over 500k. Edinburgh close to that too.

Zebre and Treviso also have large catchment areas too.

Irish Londoner actually London Irish have a long term lease to stay at the Madjeski. It's their fault they are stuck there.

 
You English fans just don't get it! Italy have 2 places in the HC, and can pick which ever team they want to play in it. They feel that in order to improve their top players for international rugby they will have 2 pro teams that play in the Rabo. They have also elected that their 2 HC places go to these teams.
They could, as before, select from their local semi-pro league but those teams got beat by even more than Zebre. Scotland and Wales have also followed Ireland's model as they feel it will prepare them better and have used their allocation accordingly.
 
And one final comment, all this "unfair" cash these Italians (and Scottish and Welsh) are getting is going into growing the game in Italy (Scotland/lesser extent Wales). If you really think it would be better served lining English and French suger daddies pockets so they can buy even more overseas players, then I don't think you are really a rugby fan and should stick to soccer.
 
It's the definition of irony that the changes you want in the name of "fairness" will result in the exact opposite. Not just in club rugby but international as well.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:Brendan those clubs would love to be in the HC getting the nice juicy revenue and experiences the underperforming weaker Pro12 clubs get.

Treviso have actually improved and made progress. If there was HC qualification they would have qualified on their own merits.

Some Pro12 fans don't seem to think Pro12 teams have a responsibility to actually improve.

Jenifer I don't think Edinburgh and Zebre in the Amlin would adversely affect them. It would be the large boot up the backside they need. They must improve. At the moment they have it far too easy.

This is arrant nonsense.  It is palpably clear to anyone with even an iota of understanding that the Pro12 has been improving as a tournament and a spectacle year-on-year since its introduction.

Jeebus, do I rue the day that the RFU unleashed the PRL on the rest of us!    Why couldn't they just deal with the spoiled kids themselves?

I meant the Pro12 teams have a responsibility to improve in the HC. Attendances in the Pro12 of some sides are still laughably woeful anyway.

Yes the Pro12 has agreed but in terms of a tournament it is still behind the AP and Top 14 in terms of intensity,importance,attendances etc.

beshocked wrote:No jenifer. I am saying that Glasgow are one of two professional clubs in Scotland. They and Edinburgh have most of the Scotland international side. With their international players (having that experience) you would expect them to perform better. Plus they have huge catchment areas - Glasgow has a population of over 500k. Edinburgh close to that too.

Zebre and Treviso also have large catchment areas too.

Irish Londoner actually London Irish have a long term lease to stay at the Madjeski. It's their fault they are stuck there.

Sadly very few teams bare any resembalance to their catchment outside the Rabo. Also on the same logic thr Spainish and Romanian teams should stroll the Amlin and be asking for HC places instead of weak teams (based on population of course)

beshocked wrote:No jenifer. I am saying that Glasgow are one of two professional clubs in Scotland. They and Edinburgh have most of the Scotland international side. With their international players (having that experience) you would expect them to perform better. Plus they have huge catchment areas - Glasgow has a population of over 500k. Edinburgh close to that too.Zebre and Treviso also have large catchment areas too.
Irish Londoner actually London Irish have a long term lease to stay at the Madjeski. It's their fault they are stuck there.

 
England have over 10 times more ppl than Wales, why didn't they hammer Wales in the 6N? That is a terrible excuse.
Just come out and say it, "I want my team to get more money and my rivals less so my team can win more".
I'd respect you more for being honest....

beshocked wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:Brendan those clubs would love to be in the HC getting the nice juicy revenue and experiences the underperforming weaker Pro12 clubs get.

Treviso have actually improved and made progress. If there was HC qualification they would have qualified on their own merits.

Some Pro12 fans don't seem to think Pro12 teams have a responsibility to actually improve.

Jenifer I don't think Edinburgh and Zebre in the Amlin would adversely affect them. It would be the large boot up the backside they need. They must improve. At the moment they have it far too easy.

This is arrant nonsense.  It is palpably clear to anyone with even an iota of understanding that the Pro12 has been improving as a tournament and a spectacle year-on-year since its introduction.

Jeebus, do I rue the day that the RFU unleashed the PRL on the rest of us!    Why couldn't they just deal with the spoiled kids themselves?

I meant the Pro12 teams have a responsibility to improve in the HC. Attendances in the Pro12 of some sides are still laughably woeful anyway.

Yes the Pro12 has agreed but in terms of a tournament it is still behind the AP and Top 14 in terms of intensity,importance,attendances etc.

Why do you never address the same issues with the T14 sadly they treat away games in their league like they do in europe. Home teams in france can run up big scores.
Lets face it England is the most compeditive league in Europe but no more then the mini leagues that go on in the Rabo (derbies)
Please include french teams when they suffer from the same problems as the Rabo.

Also i guess the T14 was rubbish last year as a rubbish team in castre won it. They were rubbish in the HC and should be reflect on the HC with place reductions

the-goon wrote: 
You English fans just don't get it! Italy have 2 places in the HC, and can pick which ever team they want to play in it. They feel that in order to improve their top players for international rugby they will have 2 pro teams that play in the Rabo. They have also elected that their 2 HC places go to these teams.
They could, as before, select from their local semi-pro league but those teams got beat by even more than Zebre. Scotland and Wales have also followed Ireland's model as they feel it will prepare them better and have used their allocation accordingly.
 
And one final comment, all this "unfair" cash these Italians (and Scottish and Welsh) are getting is going into growing the game in Italy (Scotland/lesser extent Wales). If you really think it would be better served lining English and French suger daddies pockets so they can buy even more overseas players, then I don't think you are really a rugby fan and should stick to soccer.
 
It's the definition of irony that the changes you want in the name of "fairness" will result in the exact opposite. Not just in club rugby but international as well.

You seem to believe that you can do a rubbish job and continously get rewarded for it. The Scottish clubs have been hopeless in the HC for a long long time. Okay I know Edinburgh had a flash in a pan but look at last season - no wins.

When does one say enough is enough.

Do you honestly think the Scots run their game and clubs properly? I don't. A wake up call like potentially being in the Amlin would mean that Edinburgh would actually need to perform, sort out their structure etc.

Treviso have improved and their efforts would seem they stay in the HC.

Perhaps the Italian and Scots should actually help their clubs more.

The Welsh have done a great job keeping hold onto the likes of North,Phillips,Roberts etc.

Could easily adopt the rule England do - you must play in England to play for the international side. Too logical no?

England don't have a salary cap nearly as big as the French yet have retained most of their players.

Brendan wrote:
I guess we dont want the italian S10 sides or spainish sides in the Amlin either as they don't win, add nothing and those Spainish and Romanain teams do nothing to get in as they are regions lets kick them out too.  They add nothing to the competition or European rugby.

One of the suggestions put forward was a third tier for those sides along with additional Georgian, Russian & Portuguese (the top two sides gaining entry to the Amlin) as it's questionable how much they're gaining in rugby terms and confidence from very heavy beatings by French & English clubs putting out second string teams.  These are some of the scorelines from last season's Amlin.

Gernika: 5-85, 90-12, 15-50, 71-19

Rovigo: 12-79, 90-3, 17-80, 40-22

Mogliano: 71-7, 12-59, 0-33, 53-3

Bucureşti Wolves: 39-9, 53-8

Calvisano: 67-11, 5-39

Cavalieri Prato: 59-3, 62-5, 0-47, 29-6

What do you mean re-balance? If HC places were taken up by mediocre English and French teams instead of mediocre Welsh, Irish, Scottish and Italian teams would the HC be any less mediocre?

beshocked wrote:

the-goon wrote: 
You English fans just don't get it! Italy have 2 places in the HC, and can pick which ever team they want to play in it. They feel that in order to improve their top players for international rugby they will have 2 pro teams that play in the Rabo. They have also elected that their 2 HC places go to these teams.
They could, as before, select from their local semi-pro league but those teams got beat by even more than Zebre. Scotland and Wales have also followed Ireland's model as they feel it will prepare them better and have used their allocation accordingly.
 
And one final comment, all this "unfair" cash these Italians (and Scottish and Welsh) are getting is going into growing the game in Italy (Scotland/lesser extent Wales). If you really think it would be better served lining English and French suger daddies pockets so they can buy even more overseas players, then I don't think you are really a rugby fan and should stick to soccer.
 
It's the definition of irony that the changes you want in the name of "fairness" will result in the exact opposite. Not just in club rugby but international as well.

You seem to believe that you can do a rubbish job and continously get rewarded for it. The Scottish clubs have been hopeless in the HC for a long long time. Okay I know Edinburgh had a flash in a pan but look at last season - no wins.

When does one say enough is enough.

Do you honestly think the Scots run their game and clubs properly? I don't. A wake up call like potentially being in the Amlin would mean that Edinburgh would actually need to perform, sort out their structure etc.

Treviso have improved and their efforts would seem they stay in the HC.

Perhaps the Italian and Scots should actually help their clubs more.

The Welsh have done a great job keeping hold onto the likes of North,Phillips,Roberts etc.

Could easily adopt the rule England do - you must play in England to play for the international side. Too logical no?

England don't have a salary cap nearly as big as the French yet have retained most of their players.

Good job the PRL clubs all run their business so healthily? - I mean just look at how many of them are comfortably profitable ... oh wait, hang on a minute

beshocked wrote:

the-goon wrote: 
You English fans just don't get it! Italy have 2 places in the HC, and can pick which ever team they want to play in it. They feel that in order to improve their top players for international rugby they will have 2 pro teams that play in the Rabo. They have also elected that their 2 HC places go to these teams.
They could, as before, select from their local semi-pro league but those teams got beat by even more than Zebre. Scotland and Wales have also followed Ireland's model as they feel it will prepare them better and have used their allocation accordingly.
 
And one final comment, all this "unfair" cash these Italians (and Scottish and Welsh) are getting is going into growing the game in Italy (Scotland/lesser extent Wales). If you really think it would be better served lining English and French suger daddies pockets so they can buy even more overseas players, then I don't think you are really a rugby fan and should stick to soccer.
 
It's the definition of irony that the changes you want in the name of "fairness" will result in the exact opposite. Not just in club rugby but international as well.

You seem to believe that you can do a rubbish job and continously get rewarded for it. The Scottish clubs have been hopeless in the HC for a long long time. Okay I know Edinburgh had a flash in a pan but look at last season - no wins.

When does one say enough is enough.

Do you honestly think the Scots run their game and clubs properly? I don't. A wake up call like potentially being in the Amlin would mean that Edinburgh would actually need to perform, sort out their structure etc.

Treviso have improved and their efforts would seem they stay in the HC.

Perhaps the Italian and Scots should actually help their clubs more.

The Welsh have done a great job keeping hold onto the likes of North,Phillips,Roberts etc.

Could easily adopt the rule England do - you must play in England to play for the international side. Too logical no?

England don't have a salary cap nearly as big as the French yet have retained most of their players.

You fail to realise that treviso would not have kept their players if your plans had been implemented when i first joined the forum two years ago. Then we would have the talk of the italians are rubbish send them back to teir two where they belong. Italy are developing good young players that are as good as the other teams. They just need experience which takes time.

Brendan wrote:

beshocked wrote:No jenifer. I am saying that Glasgow are one of two professional clubs in Scotland. They and Edinburgh have most of the Scotland international side. With their international players (having that experience) you would expect them to perform better. Plus they have huge catchment areas - Glasgow has a population of over 500k. Edinburgh close to that too.

Zebre and Treviso also have large catchment areas too.

Irish Londoner actually London Irish have a long term lease to stay at the Madjeski. It's their fault they are stuck there.

Sadly very few teams bare any resembalance to their catchment outside the Rabo.  Also on the same logic thr Spainish and Romanian teams should stroll the Amlin and be asking for HC places instead of weak teams (based on population of course)

Spanish and Romanians don't have professional clubs. Spain and Romania are not tier 1 nations in rugby.

Glasgow and Edinburgh are professional rugby clubs. If you don't think the Scottish do enough to attract rugby fans - whose fault is that? Glasgow and Edinburgh have the benefits of HC rugby yet squander it.

When did I say Castres shouldn't be in the HC? You call Castres rubbish yet they got 3 wins. That's 1 more than all the Italian and Scottish clubs.

More than Scarlets,Ospreys and Cardiff individually too.

the-goon obviously most of the Pro12 sides in the HC aren't a threat. That's the problem.

'shocked wrote:The Welsh have done a great job keeping hold onto the likes of North,Phillips,Roberts etc.

Some important contracts, I understand, come up for renewal this season in both Wales and England this year. Fortunately for England for the moment, Lancaster under the aegis of the RFU is restricted from selecting non-Jeff players except from 'exceptional circumstances'.

markb wrote:

Brendan wrote:
I guess we dont want the italian S10 sides or spainish sides in the Amlin either as they don't win, add nothing and those Spainish and Romanain teams do nothing to get in as they are regions lets kick them out too.  They add nothing to the competition or European rugby.

One of the suggestions put forward was a third tier for those sides along with additional Georgian, Russian & Portuguese (the top two sides gaining entry to the Amlin) as it's questionable how much they're gaining in rugby terms and confidence from very heavy beatings by French & English clubs putting out second string teams.  These are some of the scorelines from last season's Amlin.

Gernika: 5-85, 90-12, 15-50, 71-19

Rovigo: 12-79, 90-3, 17-80, 40-22

Mogliano: 71-7, 12-59, 0-33, 53-3

Bucureşti Wolves: 39-9, 53-8

Calvisano: 67-11, 5-39

Cavalieri Prato: 59-3, 62-5, 0-47, 29-6

I would like a third teir but the spainish team is gone bankrupt trying to travel for the Amlin. How much money would it accually cost to run this tournament having to finance 20 teams.
To be fair Treviso have done better taking beatings in the Rabo then wining the S10 each year.

What teams need is weekly games not weakly tournaments.

Mickado I want the HC to be reduced. Cut out some of the weaker sides.

6,6,8.

alasbut100ofus didn't say everything is rosy with the PRL clubs but certainly more so than your lot. Stop trying to pass the buck. Admit there are big problems with Scottish rugby and Welsh in particular. The first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one.

Brendan actually I do realise that. I am talking about Wales in this case. I do understand it takes time but most of the Pro12 clubs have been very wasteful when given HC rugby on a platter bar the Irish.

Do you think that the Welsh,Scottish and Italians perform well in the HC?

beshocked wrote:Mickado I want the HC to be reduced. Cut out some of the weaker sides.

6,6,8.

alasbut100ofus didn't say everything is rosy with the PRL clubs but certainly more so than your lot. Stop trying to pass the buck. Admit there are big problems with Scottish rugby and Welsh in particular. The first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one.

Brendan actually I do realise that. I am talking about Wales in this case. I do understand it takes time but most of the Pro12 clubs have been very wasteful when given HC rugby on a platter bar the Irish.

Do you think that the Welsh,Scottish and Italians perform well in the HC?

I think the other Rabo unions are improving. Yes Scotland's teams did poor last season but the year before they became first and second. That year there was five Rabo teams plus Glasgow and Scarlets coming second. So that meant that seven came in the top half of their groups. Why dont you use that year.

Also the Scottish and Italians teams are improving like it or not. The welsh thats another story.

Brendan the HC has been going on for some time.

Edinburgh have in 97 games - 34 wins, 3 draws, 60 losses. 35% win rate.

Glasgow have in 85 games - 26 wins, 2 draws, 57 losses. 30.5% win rate.

Very poor in my opinion.

My own side (Sarries) have a win ratio of 61% in HC games.

What about Castre or Ulster. They have to be below 50%.

beshocked wrote:Mickado I want the HC to be reduced. Cut out some of the weaker sides.

6,6,8.
alasbut100ofus didn't say everything is rosy with the PRL clubs but certainly more so than your lot. Stop trying to pass the buck. Admit there are big problems with Scottish rugby and Welsh in particular. The first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one.

Brendan actually I do realise that. I am talking about Wales in this case. I do understand it takes time but most of the Pro12 clubs have been very wasteful when given HC rugby on a platter bar the Irish.

Do you think that the Welsh,Scottish and Italians perform well in the HC?

 
6, 6 and 8?
 
The Rabo isn't a Union, it is a league made up a different Unions, allocation goes by Union.
 
Can you not accept that Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy have a different structure to your league??? How is this so hard to understand?? These counteries cannot afford to be setup like yourselves.
 
The result would be semi-pro clubs that the English and French clubs would smash. Oh wait, that's what you want...
 
If you want 20 teams, lets do the below.
5 French
5 English
3 Irish
3 Welsh
2 Scots
2 Italian
 
Although I don't think it is really "fair" (see what I did there) that England have more teams than Ireland considering we have been more successful recently and have 6 HC wins each. This might be more "fair".
 
5 French
4 English
4 Irish
3 Welsh
2 Scots
2 Italian

What about the french? Only 3 of their clubs take the HC seriously at all.

Why not just let Clermont, Toulon and Toulouse in. Let the rest "prove themselves" in the Amlin.

Montpelier "rolled over" for Toulon last year. Racing , Castres etc have done regularly.