The Death Knell for James Hook's Wales career?

So James Hook has signed a, surprisingly long, four year extension to his Perpginan contract, a commitment which would see him still playing for the club aged 33.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24068115

It appears he has been playing primarily at 15 this season, deferring to the young talent Camille Lopez. For Hook, whose ambition in joining USAP was, at least in part, to play the position he felt was his best, 10, it seems his original intentions for leaving Wales are no more fulfilled than when he was with the Ospreys. Indeed, based purely on Welsh performances, he appears to make a far better centre than 15, where his defence is highly suspect.

Is this the end then? There's little doubting his mercurial talent, but since Wales has abandoned the running game in favour of formula and discipline, his talents are clearly not best suited to the role of the Welsh 10. He's been resigned to a bit part role, the epitome of the utility replacement back, at best third in line for the 10 shirt, and now playing abroad, which, as not one of Gatland's elite, places him at a severe disadvantage.

I thought and still harboured ambitions for him to claim the 10 shirt, perhaps only for one or two seasons, at some point in the future, having matured and developed his game sufficiently in France. With him playing 15, and committing to USAP for another 4 years, this surely is the end of that hope, and perhaps we will rarely see him called up at all in the future, as Patchell and Tovey develop and challenge Biggar and Priestland for squad places, or indeed as cover for full back and centre too. If it is, then his loss to Welsh rugby, and the talent that could have seen him become a fantastic Welsh player for far longer than he was, is a very great one indeed.

Miaow

I think he will be 32 when his four year deal ends. Interesting that Lopez was all but signed on the Clermont at the end of the 2012 season, even more interesting that young Tommy Allan  http://www.usap.tv/videos/137/774/5eme-journee-racing-metro-92-vs-usap/  has also had his first game for Perpignan at flyhalf and had a pretty strong debut.

When you say there is no doubting his mercurial talents then I have to disagree, the one thing he had been given at Perpignan is carte blanche to have a free reign at his natural game. However if you have watched him over the last two seasons he has gone more and more conservative thus enabling him to bring out his not so natural game management which in the main hasn't really worked.

Shades yet again of The Ospreys, Wales and The Lions for Mr Hook.

I think Hook has been very savvy when you look at the options he had in the Welsh regions,
10 - Ospreys (Biggar/Morgan), Cardiff (Patchell), Scarlets (Priestland), Newport (Tovey).
13 - Ospreys (Beck), Scarlets (Davies or Williams).
15 - Scarlets (Liam Williams), Cardiff (Halfpenny)

So what did he really have..... OC for Cardiff/Newport or FB for Ospreys/Newport

I think taking the easy money and run (in the sun) is his last and probably only viable option

Not a bad point there FHF

His options are limited and certainly limited financially in Wales. Internationally though if he is still performing well he will be included in the Squad. He was a player we couldn't leave out at one point. It is not that his ability has waned but that the competition for places in Wales has increased dramatically since Hookie's 07 debut.

Time will tell but I don't think his international appearances are over by any means.

Good luck to Hook, he probably made his decision based on Gatland is going to be around up to the RWC so there is no point coming back to Wales with the hope of getting into a Wales side. We all know Lydiate, Roberts, Phillips playing in France will make no difference to Gatland picking them just like G Jenkins last season regardless whether they play or not.

Flyhalf, I suppose it depends whether it's four more years added to this final year of his contract, meaning he'll be 33 by the end of it, or whether it's three extra years, four in total. Either way, he's into his 30s, and all but out of the international equation by then.

I really think you do him a disservice. He is undoubtedly one of the most naturally gifted footballers to come out of Wales for decades, there's no doubting that. What is in doubt is his ability to be effective at the now very different Test level. I think Gatland was right to prefer Stephen Jones, who is still vastly underrated, over him, but in essence he's been given little opportunity to play 10 for or in Wales since 2009. You can argue that any subsequent performances are seriously affected by the fact that him being out of the Welsh reckoning; you can't underestimate the psychological impact of being deemed inferior, especially when the player in question is Welsh. Ardent self belief isn't traditionally a strong point.

You also do him a disservice by thinking he couldn't usurp any of those players from their starting positions for the regions. It's a moot point, as he's earning far too much money to come back on the possibility of playing 10, but the Blues looks almost tailor made from him to guide Patchell for two seasons, who in my opinion will probably only be truly ready internationally after the WC. It would have been highly sensible for him to come back to the Blues for two years, challenge for the 10 shirt for 2015, and then leave again for one big paycheck. As i have said, however, it is irrelevant, as clearly it is too big a risk for the sacrifice of the life he has built in France.

I've read your previous comments on Hook flyhalf, and it's evident you're not a fan. Which is fine, but there is certainly no great quality of depth at 10 in Wales and he certainly has the talent to take the shirt.

flyhalffactory wrote:Shades yet again of The Ospreys, Wales and The Lions for Mr Hook.

I don't really understand this comment. I can only presume you don't think he's played well for these teams. Which is nonsense. As a late call up when out of form for the Lions, for whom he didn't perform terribly, that's fairly irrelevant. He's put in incredible displays for the other two teams, as well as poor ones. I fully supported Priestland's selection during 2011 and 2012, though with hindsight, though taking nothing away from the way Priestland performed, I'm not sure there's a rugby player treated less fairly than Hook has been. How much easier is it to perform adequately or even well when you are allowed to focus on a few things by the coaches, rather than left out in the cold, or asked to cover many positions, and dismissed instantly rather than allowed a run of games in the side? I'd assume, as top level professional athletes where they are performing to a very high specification, and Gatland's ticklist, it is very hard.

maesteg, I hope you're right. It seems scandalous that Hook could add only a few more caps to his current total. It's equally scandalous that he wasn't given the opportunity to go head to head with Biggar in an environment devoid of the pressure of most Welsh Test matches (along with Ryan Jones, Paul James etc.- as replacements would they not have relished the opportunity to lead and guide the youngsters to victory in the series?).

glamorganalun wrote:Good luck to Hook, he probably made his decision based on Gatland is going to be around up to the RWC so there is no point coming back to Wales with the hope of getting into a Wales side. We all know Lydiate, Roberts, Phillips playing in France will make no difference to Gatland picking them just like G Jenkins last season regardless whether they play or not.

I agree. Gatland will continue to pick the core he feels essential to the side. However, although it wouldn't guarantee selection by returning to Wales, or even going to England, just like Aled Brew, by playing in France and not being part of the core, he certainly excludes himself from forcing his way into the starting side. This contract is a big signal of intent, and one that Gatland may not appreciate; if he deems there to be enough cover in the midfield with Beck and Scott Williams, Biggar and Priestland both stay fit, and Liam Williams keeps up the pressure on Halfpenny, you can clearly make the case that Gatland could deem him inessential to the squad.

Miaow

I agree he has played some excellent head-line grabbing games for both Wales and the Os but I think he has had more average minutes than good minutes.

What I mean by "shades" is he has started and been given 2-3 full seasons at his preferred position (10) for the Ospreys and Wales. You do realise he played more games at 10 in his first two seasons for Wales than Robinson, Jones, Sweeney combined. I think the opposite to you he hasn't been mucked around by either The Ospreys or Wales as they didn't move him out of the 10 role his form did that, and even then, Jenkins, then Gatland didn't drop him but accommodated his talent by moving him to 13 or 15, they kept him in the squad when in my mind there were much better options.

If you have seen my old 606 profile you would have noticed my favourite welsh player then was James Hook. I love his individual single-minded attacking style and his risk taking rationale on the game...... what I have disagreed with is some of the comments about his innate talents, his performances and his benefits as a 10 in a team environment.  He can spot a gap, he has a good turn of speed, helluva right peg and a world class handoff.

Hey Maes old mate.

Certainly agree with you....... I don't think his ability has waned but he now doesn't have those few seconds of space he needs to look around, assess the situation and react. I think we too often use the term "naturally talented" when we really mean "risk taker", I mean isn't a player who is innately excellent at game management a naturally talented player as well. I believe in Hooks case he was relatively an unknown quantity in 2007 and 2008 hence he was provided that yard or so of space, by 2009 we saw a totally different player, bigger and stronger and suddenly you saw him running down blind alleys mainly due to the fact that the opposition had to a point sussed him out so to speak.

When you look at the still effective, talented and available players who might find it hard to get back into the Welsh team again the likes of Lee Byrne (15), Gavin Henson (15, 13. 12, 10), and then you look at young talented 10s like Biggar, Patchell, Matthew Morgan, Owen Williams who went to Leicester, and Steve Shingler (13, 12, 10) who moved back to Wales, and then the established backs stars Halfpenny, Roberts, Davies,  Scott Williams, Beck......, I just can't see Hooky (under Gatlands tenure) ever gracing the Welsh jersey again.

Hook has 71 caps and stil never managed to secure a regular starting place, jack of all master of none for me sorry and his versatility certainly cost him.

Hook to me had all the physical gifts for a 10. He can kick and pass well, can step and put on the gas quickly. He just never seems to have that mental edge needed, he can't make the decisions in a split second that top attacking 10's can and so we see him shuffling left and right without making ground and then throwing horrible off loads.

Quality 13 but just not mentally quick enough for 10.

To be a good, long-serving international fly-half you need to have a superb all-round game. Biggar, Cooper and Hook for example are players who have great strengths but lack the all-round game that the top 10's have. All I have to say to Hook is ta-ra. And lets not kid ourselves as we had a bit of a fly-half crisis when he was still in the team. Now as it stands a lot is depending on the shoulders of Patchell and Biggar while we sit hoping Priestland can capture his 2011 form.

The positive of Hook is his ability to see and attack correctly an opportunity much quicker than your average player.

Compare Hook to Biggar and he can't see the same opportunity's.

But Biggar can run a game, has better kicking from hand and puts his team where they want to be and can punish an opposition. Hook has always struggled to see those types of opportunities.

I agree with Bedford. Hook had talent, lots of it but was never the best in any position. Good luck to him. A good contract and a nice place to live. 71 caps is no mean achievement either - I'd have eaten my Granny to have been good enough for 1 !

The death knell was already rung, with last rites administered when the squad to tour Japan was announced.

that he now signs an extended contract shows he knows he is no longer wanted/needed.

maestegmafia wrote:But Biggar can run a game, has better kicking from hand and puts his team where they want to be and can punish an opposition.

Which is precisely what you want from a flyhalf, I've always been a fan of Hook, but he cannot control the game as consistently as he needs to from that position, though he has had some cracking games at 10 for Wales.

Who plays 10 for Perpignan?

Just looked up the Perpignan squad. Hook really should be able to get a spot at 10 in that squad if he is any good. Strange.

Interestingly Perpignan have the most European squad I have see of any team with 8 different Euro nations represented:

French: 16
English: 2
Welsh: 2
Scots: 2
Belgian: 1
Georgian: 1
Romanian: 1
Italian: 1

Tonga: 3
Saffers: 2
Kiwi: 1
Oz: 1
Samoa:1
Fiji: 1

Very cosmopolitan. All they need is an Irish man and an Argie to have all nations covered.

i think Mr reliable Stephen Jones consistency kept hook from the number ten rather then hooks lack of talent in that position . being offered four year contract is a no brainer really . no 29 year old not going to turn that down with high wages . so prob a fair well to Mr hook Welsh services , just wonder who be gats number ten biggar or priestland

IronMike wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:But Biggar can run a game, has better kicking from hand and puts his team where they want to be and can punish an opposition.

Which is precisely what you want from a flyhalf, I've always been a fan of Hook, but he cannot control the game as consistently as he needs to from that position, though he has had some cracking games at 10 for Wales.

To a degree, Biggars fault is that he can't spot attacking openings in the opposition defence well enough. He can't create well enough and is there for limited. Hook was far better at this, but as we mentioned, fails in management areas.

An amalgamation of the two is ideal, something like a fit and in form Patchell or Priestland, or Owen Williams. Or we graft the DNA of Barry John into one of the current lads...!

Now he was an all round flyhalf.

maestegmafia wrote:

IronMike wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:But Biggar can run a game, has better kicking from hand and puts his team where they want to be and can punish an opposition.

Which is precisely what you want from a flyhalf, I've always been a fan of Hook, but he cannot control the game as consistently as he needs to from that position, though he has had some cracking games at 10 for Wales.

To a degree, Biggars fault is that he can't spot attacking openings in the opposition defence well enough. He can't create well enough and is there for limited. Hook was far better at this, but as we mentioned, fails in management areas.

An amalgamation of the two is ideal, something like a fit and in form Patchell or Priestland, or Owen Williams. Or we graft the DNA of Barry John into one of the current lads...!

Now he was an all round flyhalf.

Gatland would have seen Barry John as a utility back.

I'm not 100% convinced that a DNA 'graft' would work on an adult player, but if it did, would the donor have to be Welsh to comply with IRB regs?  If not, I think Michael Lynagh would be the perfect clone for Gats' style of play.

maestegmafia wrote:

IronMike wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:But Biggar can run a game, has better kicking from hand and puts his team where they want to be and can punish an opposition.

Which is precisely what you want from a flyhalf, I've always been a fan of Hook, but he cannot control the game as consistently as he needs to from that position, though he has had some cracking games at 10 for Wales.

To a degree, Biggars fault is that he can't spot attacking openings in the opposition defence well enough. He can't create well enough and is there for limited. Hook was far better at this, but as we mentioned, fails in management areas.

An amalgamation of the two is ideal, something like a fit and in form Patchell or Priestland, or Owen Williams. Or we graft the DNA of Barry John into one of the current lads...!

Now he was an all round flyhalf.

Maesteg
You make a point of Hooks ability to spot an opportunity more often than Biggar, this to me is a fallacy built up mostly by the welsh media frenzy to make Hook the natural successor of the absent Henson as the "next saviour of the welsh way".

If you look at many of Hook moves to seize an attacking opportunity (at the top level against quality opposition) they ended up being shepherded into a blind alley and turned over, however the ones that came off were headline grabbing and remembered for years to come, hence they perpetuated the myth. Seizing an offensive opportunity doesn't only mean spotting the gap, it means gaining a territorial advantage both on the field and in the mind. I believe Biggar is better than Hook with regards to "an eye for the opportunity", but is not so much of a risk taker.

This analysis from Dr Gwyn Jones reveals everything that an aware Biggar does to gain a team advantage and in most of those opportunities you would have seen Hook "run" and gain an individual advantage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3ViJflBhbE

 Isn't the real death knell of a career when you are replaced by JD2?  

GloriousEmpire wrote: Isn't the real death knell of a career when you are replaced by JD2?  

I think the current line is "hung out to dry" or "slashed from the squad for devious non-rugby reasons".

I don't think "replaced" adequately captures the grave injustice that has come to pass.......

GloriousEmpire wrote: Isn't the real death knell of a career when you are replaced by JD2?  

No but its not good for any career to be replaced by anyone but unfortunatly that the nature of sport. Old age remains the main factor for the end of any career though.

I love the way Drico is such troll fodder. You see the same posters swarm around Drico comments like pigs to sh1t. Gas!!

....on the Hook debate, it isn't his distribution skills for me that make him such a good fly half, it's his broken field running. He has that elusive jinking running style that can side step the modern blitz defence and find half gaps.

I do agree that he's become more pragmatic at Perpignan, but I do still hold the view that he's the most talented option at 10 for Wales.

Biggar is a more efficient player though, and most importantly more consistent. I've yet to see Biggar set the heather on fire, but he always seems to go efficiently about his business, making solid judgement calls and distributing accurately. In a sense they compliment each other nicely.

The million dollar question for me is whether Priestland can recapture his RWC form, and he sits somewhere between the two in my view. Comfortable and dangerous with ball in hand, able to exert some control on the game, and big enough to hold his own in defence. Form has been an issue though, and I'm not convinced he has enough belief in his own abilities. Hopefully that will change this season.

GunsGerms wrote:I love the way Drico is such troll fodder. You see the same posters swarm around Drico comments like pigs to sh1t. Gas!!

Now you know what it's like to be Welsh.
BOD is a legend and will still be afforded the respect he deserves, so long as he keeps his mouth shut about the 'Lions snub/resentment' from now on. I have to admit even I lost a little bit of respect for him in the past few weeks.

The Saint wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I love the way Drico is such troll fodder. You see the same posters swarm around Drico comments like pigs to sh1t. Gas!!

Now you know what it's like to be Welsh.
BOD is a legend and will still be afforded the respect he deserves, so long as he keeps his mouth shut about the 'Lions snub/resentment' from now on. I have to admit even I lost a little bit of respect for him in the past few weeks.

Thats not going to happen because the UK media love him and they know asking him questions like that is good for feeding the hungry trolls who buy their newspapers. O'Driscoll wins because now that his career is winding down he will probably rely on the media for income. I cant see him in coaching.

In any case I doubt he cares if you respect him or not.

I haven't seen Hook as a viable option for Wales in a couple of years. Too fragile when the occasion demands. A utility back at most and even then not in the current first 23.

In test matches;

Hook made 20 starts for Wales at outside half. Wales won 12 of them.

Dan Biggar has made 12 starts at outside half. Wales won 7.

Rhys Priestland has made 18 starts at outside half. Wales won 9.

In games they have featured in, Dan Biggar has been given 9 consecutive starts at outside half and Priestland twelve.

Since 2007, the most Hook had was two.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Hook has 71 caps and stil never managed to secure a regular starting place, jack of all master of none for me sorry and his versatility certainly cost him.

You could say the same for Gareth Thomas and Colin charvis or you can say their versatility helped them get a lot more caps because they could play in different positions.
Alfie played 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15.

Shifty wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Hook has 71 caps and stil never managed to secure a regular starting place, jack of all master of none for me sorry and his versatility certainly cost him.

You could say the same for Gareth Thomas and Colin charvis or you can say their versatility helped them get a lot more caps because they could play in different positions.
Alfie played 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15.  

Shifty,

You are correct it does helkp some people and I even used this when posting about selection for Lions tours etc.

However in Hooks case I think it affected his ability to tie down one position

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Shifty wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Hook has 71 caps and stil never managed to secure a regular starting place, jack of all master of none for me sorry and his versatility certainly cost him.

You could say the same for Gareth Thomas and Colin charvis or you can say their versatility helped them get a lot more caps because they could play in different positions.
Alfie played 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15.  

Shifty,

You are correct it does helkp some people and I even used this when posting about selection for Lions tours etc.

However in Hooks case I think it affected his ability to tie down one position

Mind you like Gareth Thomas Hook was never the best at any position, but has been very good at many...!

Both players are a huge asset to Wales on and off the pitch. Not many natio a can select a sub who covers 80% of the backline and has earned over 70 caps.

We are very lucky to have Hook.

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Shifty wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Hook has 71 caps and stil never managed to secure a regular starting place, jack of all master of none for me sorry and his versatility certainly cost him.

You could say the same for Gareth Thomas and Colin charvis or you can say their versatility helped them get a lot more caps because they could play in different positions.
Alfie played 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15.  

Shifty,

You are correct it does helkp some people and I even used this when posting about selection for Lions tours etc.

However in Hooks case I think it affected his ability to tie down one position

Mind you like Gareth Thomas Hook was never the best at any position, but has been very good at many...!

Both players are a huge asset to Wales on and off the pitch. Not many natio a can select a sub who covers 80% of the backline and has earned over 70 caps.

We are very lucky to have Hook.

Can't agree that Hook has been "very good" in most positions he's played in. The best displays I've seen him produce have been as either a 10 or a 13 and in both cases I've seen him hand in some mediocre performances also. As a 12 or a 15 he has always looked distinctly average. I have never fathomed the logic of picking him in certain positions when there are clearly better candidates and additionally when they aren't positions Hook has even looked particularly good playing in.

Say what you will about Gatland's success with Wales and the Lions but his handling of Hook has been poor. The same goes to Lyn Jones and Sean Holley when they were coaching Hook at the Liberty. The term versatility has been used far more often than applicable in Hook's case, he is indeed not as versatile as many would think for, as said above, he hasn't played all that well in every position he's been picked in. It's been used as an excuse to craft a makeshift fallback option out of him and as a result he now has little hope of breaking back into the Welsh first team.

Casartelli wrote:In test matches;

Hook made 20 starts for Wales at outside half.  Wales won 12 of them.

Dan Biggar has made 12 starts at outside half.  Wales won 7.

Rhys Priestland has made 18 starts at outside half.  Wales won 9.

In games they have featured in, Dan Biggar has been given 9 consecutive starts at outside half and Priestland twelve.

Since 2007, the most Hook had was two.

That's a pretty shocking statistic. I agree that, with Gatland as the coach, he isn't the best fly half available to Wales. Certainly when SJ was still fit and playing, Hook was the second best option. I just can't help feel that, in a team of similarly large and unsubtle backs, absent of Shane Williams, we could do with a bit of trickery at first receiver or in the midfield. Having played top level rugby for nearly a decade, I fail to believe that Hook has poor 'game management' (essentially that's just choosing the 'correct'/least risky option the majority of the time) if given a run of games; arguably, coming off the bench, he's forced to try and look flashy, especially when the game is usually won or lost when he is called upon, otherwise he stays on the bench.

This Welsh team is seriously lacking in footballers, the introduction of Eli Walker may help but I don't think it's enough. Neither Priestland nor Biggar has particularly nailed the shirt, Biggar may well do so and has all the attributes you would expect Gatland to adore, but undoubtedly they have deficiencies in their games which makes a jinking alternative a decent option. Hook is a very rare talent, it is easy to forget just how effective and difficult a natural jinker is to defend against. It seems madness that Wales, which has no great abundance of depth of talent, could discard him so easily.