Spreading the game and helping the minnows

First topic message reminder :

So some discussion on this amongst the euro cup stuff on the club boards.   think we would all like to see the game become more widespread and more competitive worldwide with more teams capable of taking on the big boys

two areas I think need to be looked at.
1) helping the European minnows to become competitive in the way Italy have done over the last decade or so

2 helping the international teams outside of Europe become more competitive.  I think the pacific islands in particular get a poor deal.

so answers - for discussion

1) include the European minnows in the autumn internationals.  Maybe against "academy sides or "rabo select" ( Rabo players not in the full international squads playing) or similar rather than full internationals.  It would also give fringe players from the 6N counties the chance to prove themselves.  Georgia and  Romania especially are at a level this could work are they not?  I would also like these countries to play their international teams in the European cup. Georgia might do rather well.  I would imagine the minnows would enjoy playing the european club giants.  Maybe spains level would be to play their international team in the amlin?

2) for the pacific islanders I would like to see the big teams tour more.  Scotland were well received when they did this and the games were entertaining and I believe Scotland learned a bit as well.  I would also like a pacific island lions team play regular internationals.  Canada struggle to get competative games as well do they not - and they are decent side worth playing.

It would mean all the top sides having to give up a bit of money tho as the games would be a smaller draw.  Player release would be hard as well.  there must be a way for these teams to get more meaningful games.  It would put money into the hands of these smaller nations.  Its acrying shame that Fiji for example only get their full squads to play meaningful games in the WC

How often do Fiji play Samoa or Tonga?

Given they're neighbours, you'd think they'd play each other every year, do they? Could they create their own association and hawk a comp off to skytv? It wouldn't be a RC or 6N but it could grow into something people outside the islands may want to watch.

Ebop its ridiculas that argentina was added yet somoa, fiji and togna or even african nations wernt.

There is no excuse that is plausible tbh.

We have added italy and france over the years.

Over the many many many years, that is true

Its still true!

And you guys did that because you wanted to spread the love right?

You don't think it is to help the other nations that are neighbors out and to spread the game.

We added France when there were in Italy position and then we added Italy.

True, back in 1910

Italy in 2000

So, you could argue, that at that rate, you 'super powers' in the north don't really give a hoot about your neighbours.

Sorry to have a pop at ya, but you don't really have any right to look down your noses at us in the south.

Not sure I understand your point.

We have helped nations- you haven't.

Its simple.

Argentina

Do people not think that there is enough at the minute.

The teams like Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, Georgia, Russia DO get games against the required standard teams. Be it Saxons / Wolfhound level or senior national teams. Samoa are currently very strong.

Elsewhere all the 5 nation competitions that i listed above (Europe, Asia, Africa, South America) are for all the teams that simply arent at that level yet. These competitions give all these lower sides regular competion against similar standard sides, and is about these teams learning the game.

As Russia and Georgia have come out in the last few years above the others...im sure we will see others progressing more quickly than others...ie Germany in Europe, Morroco/Kenya/Madagascar in Africa etc.

As they come through they will get oppertunities against the bigger teams...but until then 100+ thrashings isnt going to help anyone!

Also....its not just about the actual games either..its about coaching as well.

The 6n teams (as im sure the Southern 3) do alot of work in this regards around europe and all over. This is as critical as just playing games against the big teams.

to be brutally honest what would Samoa and Tonga be without chaps from NZ citing grandparents or parents rule.... they wouldn't be half as competitive to be truthful.

In Samoa's last game vs. SA they fielded 13 players born in NZ in their 23, 10 were born in Samoa.

Now that doesn't mean they are not competitive but I think putting them into a tournament over Argentina would have been a mistake for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, as I mentioned before, Samoa takes a lot of its players born and raised in other nations... Argentina are all home grown... in fact they lose quite a few players to Italy especially be it Castrogiovanni, Parisse, Dominguez.

What happens if immigration dries up and there are no more players willing to play for NZ? What will happen to their competitiveness?

What is the market for rugby in Samoa... argentina is a big country with a large fan base.... proportionally I'm sure Samoa matches them but in overall numbers, not likely.

Also I imagine NZ wouldn't be too keen on their inclusion either. If you gave Samoa equally footing how many players would choose them over the ABs? It could happen... England have lost chaps like Geogeghan, Easterby, Henderson, Cuthbert, Charvis, Shanklin, Heathcote etc to Ireland, Wales & Scotland amongst others who could have played for the country of their birth had they wished.. the same could happen to NZ if Samoa got level footing on a tournament scale.

Would be interesting to see how strong both NZ and Samoa would have been if Samoans could only ever have played for Samoa. For a small nation they must have the greatest players per capita in the game.

You'd have had guys like Muliaina, So'oialo, Umaga, Kaino, Masoe, Collins all out so their side in the 00s would have been ridiculously strong. But its not to say they've been taken, by the looks of it, most of those guys moved as youngsters so its their right they play in the country they grew up in.... but without players from NZ, I think Samoa would struggle... as would any nation nation with a population 1/300th the size of the UK.

Looking at the above players though its certainly had a significant impact on their rivalry with the boks for instance (although they themselves have benefited from selecting cape coloured players such as Bryan Habana and JP Pietersen etc).

The way our lot have been playing lately we can play against the minnow PI sides and still struggle to win a game!!!

I think trouble with the good PI players is their goal I am sure are to play for the ABs still as better kudos than for their own country, I reckon.

I agree that too OzT. I remember watching a TV program on a teenager from Samoa who had recently got a scholarship to a NZ high school and was already in the NZ age grade system.
The guy hadn't been in NZ for more a couple of years but said it was obviously his ambition to play for the ABs, by the sound of it, it didn't seem too crazy a thing to say.

No and hey why not, kudos to make it in the ABs must be better than Samoa.

I guess the minnows for your part of the world must be Namibia and maybe Zim, don't think any other countries play rugby your sway? Is there any comps for them?

Chaps like Jacques Burger could have held out for the boks but chose him home nation when in reality he was born a South African citizen and is an Afrikaner too.

But you're right. Guys like Beast, Adrian Garvey etc are from Zim and chose to play for the boks...but those guys are a little beyonda team like Samoa. Dropping from the 1st ranked team to the 8th isn't as bad as say the 2nd to the 30th... especially in rugby terms, the gulfs beyond say teams ranked 12 and below are very very significant.

This kid is like an Irishman moving to England to play for Millfield or something and then choosing to represent England.

The reason why that Samoan kid would love to play for the ABs is because of the money... Kids from the PIs are always encouraged to play abroad to make as much money as they can to provide for their families.

If there was enough money in Samoan rugby then I'm sure they would all love to play for their home country.

OzT wrote:The way out lot have been playing lately we can play against the minnow PI sides and still struggle to win a game!!.

I'll see your "still struggle" and raise you a "won't" - we have been beaten by Samoa and Tonga last time out

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Cyril wrote:It's a shame the Churchill Cup is no more. Nations like Tonga, Canada and Uruguay benifitted from that tournament.

It was also a good run out for sides like the Saxons and Ireland 'A'.

I used to enjoy watching it.

It was very good, I agree it would be a good thing to bring back. Also, A-teams like the Saxons get nowhere near enough matches, they are essentially meaningless without the Churchill Cup. We could see them play the likes of Romania

The Churchill Cup was sponsored by the RFU - England's attempt to bring better quality Rugby to North America, as it always included the US and Canada.  It was a great experience for people on the left side of the Atlantic.  The problem with it was it needed one or two 'home' bases instead of bringing it all over the continent.  I don't know if the RFU broke even from the venture or not.  But we saw some great talent in those Saxon sides.

Fiji Schools recently beat NZ Schools.

The try scorers were Seveci Nakailagi, Rupeni Vakasilimi, Sakiusa Boletawa and Viliame Kikau for Fiji

It will be interesting to follow their careers and see who they score their first full international tries for.

Young PI talent is now being targetted systematically by EU teams and clubs now two woth a couple of clubs having agreements with their PI counterparts.

Samoa have to be added to the 4N in the next few years. They are now seriousl competitive and consistent.

However in the short exestence of the 3N adding in Argentina already is pretty good going.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The reason why that Samoan kid would love to play for the ABs is because of the money... Kids from the PIs are always encouraged to play abroad to make as much money as they can to provide for their families.

If there was enough money in Samoan rugby then I'm sure they would all love to play for their home country.

This is a part of why I would love the various pacific islanders more opportunity to play top flight games and I love the idea of a pacific island "lions" on regular tours. Fiji / tonga / samo are great to watch and a match for most of the top teams and maybe more than a match if they combine for away tours.

Do it on a cycle. One year one or two top teams to do a tour of the pacific islands , next year a pacific islands tour as "lions" to europe. next year diffent teams ontour to the pacific islands, next year a pacific islands tour to the antipodes. Over a few years it would grow into a spectacle and would bring much needed money into the pacific islands game allowing them to keep more of their players

I think the key is getting a global season... do that and the bulk of the PI players in Europe will be able to represent their teams.
The stadiums are a lot to be desired though... the only way they could perform in a big tournament like the RC would be to base themselves in Auckland IMO. Wouldn't have a problem filling a stadium.

Perhaps rather than Samoa, Fiji etc the PI team could play in the RC? Getting them playing every year, every other year etc would mean they would gel as a team and be competitive.

money wise though it wouldn't be much of an incentive for the RC members... no revenue opportunities in the pacific sides and all it would mean is a smaller piece of the pie.

Therefore probably unlikely.

I'm with you fa. Whilst I'd like to see Samoa, Fiji or Tonga in the RC, I can't see it happening. Cash is the short answer. The tournament is paid for by the networks and they are looking to increase profits. Fiji, Samoa and Tonga have low very GDP's. These days the networks have a say. In terms of the current countries in the RC Australia and Argentina have more potential growth than either NZ or South Africa. NZ's seen as saturated, so even the fact that there are strong ties to the Islands isn't necessarily going to generate more cash.

I to think the key is sorting out the global season and eligibility. At present we often don't see full strength sides as players have club commitments. A proper window without any club games and enforced releases would make a huge difference.

In the longer term. Rugby has to sort out the eligibility issue. Ensuring that players who go overseas on scholarships or contracts represent their country of origin would help everyone and the game globally.

I wonder how many of those kids who played in that Fiji schools side who beat the ABs will end up ABs or Wallabies themselves?

MMaaxx wrote:Fiji Schools recently beat NZ Schools.

The try scorers were Seveci Nakailagi, Rupeni Vakasilimi, Sakiusa Boletawa and Viliame Kikau for Fiji

It will be interesting to follow their careers and see who they score their first full international tries for.

Young PI talent is now being targetted systematically by EU teams and clubs now two woth a couple of clubs having agreements with their PI counterparts.

Samoa have to be added to the 4N in the next few years. They are now seriousl competitive and consistent.

However in the short exestence of the 3N adding in Argentina already is pretty good going.

I saw this, a good result for Fiji schools. Sadly its pretty likely that some of those players will either become All Blacks or be signed by French clubs and never (or rarely) represent Fiji.

Bathman_in_London wrote:

MMaaxx wrote:Fiji Schools recently beat NZ Schools.

The try scorers were Seveci Nakailagi, Rupeni Vakasilimi, Sakiusa Boletawa and Viliame Kikau for Fiji

It will be interesting to follow their careers and see who they score their first full international tries for.

Young PI talent is now being targetted systematically by EU teams and clubs now two woth a couple of clubs having agreements with their PI counterparts.

Samoa have to be added to the 4N in the next few years. They are now seriousl competitive and consistent.

However in the short exestence of the 3N adding in Argentina already is pretty good going.

I saw this, a good result for Fiji schools. Sadly its pretty likely that some of those players will either become All Blacks or be signed by French clubs and never (or rarely) represent Fiji.

Unlikely to play for the All Blacks. Joeli and Sivivatu come to mind. More likely to play for France, England or Australia I suspect. Fair comment about French clubs. There's an outside chance they end up in NZ sevens (again more likely to end up in Europe).

As posted on another thread but seems  appropiate to post here as well

"What he does expect to see is a continuation of the South Seas rugby migration to Europe – and whatever his national coach might say, the International Rugby Board wants to see it too. The sport’s governing body has never said so publicly, but it sees club rugby in England and France as a valuable finishing school for the Fijians, Samoans and Tongans – a place where they can learn the harsher, darker realities of the union game at professional level and use their new-found expertise as a counterweight to the wilder, more exuberant and infinitely less structured brand of rugby they play in the islands."
A quote from an article in the Indy http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/news-comment/aviva-premiership-the-invasion-of-south-seas-players-8845299.html.

From GE's new thread on Super rugby expansion. Seems like a move in the right direction. Wonder if this will see a reduction in the number of PI players moving to the NH?

"Super Rugby is set to expand to Super-18 with the addition of an NZ based Pacific Islanders team, embracing the long standing synergy between pacific and NZ rugby, and most importantly the skill and excitement boost from the islands will be matched pragmatically with the addition of a super rich Japanese franchise".