The Americans are coming... the Americans are coming....

NO... this is not a Tiger/Vonn post.... It's about Americans trying to gain access the European and/or Challenge Tours

Europeans have been taking advantage of the PGA Tour's Q-school for quite a while now... and we discussed some of them while the pre-qualifying rounds of the new Web.com Q-school.

But now, and in light of the change in PGA Tour qualifying, perhaps Uihlein and Koepka have shown the way to more opportunities for Americans on the European Tour. Seems to me the smart move, for players on both sides of the Atlantic, would be to try both the Web*com and the Euro Tour Q-schools and take the best opportunity earned from whichever... And the way the dates work out... it is possible to play all three stages of each school.

Euro Tour
1st Stage - 6 of 8 complete - last two start today Oct 1-4
2nd Stage - Nov 2-5
Final stage - Nov 10-15

Web*com Tour
pre-qualifying - Completed Sep 15
1st Stage - Oct 8-11, 15-18, 22-25
2nd Stage - Nov 12-15, 19-22
Final Stage - Dec 12-17

And maybe Americans are paying attention. I don't have a clue how many Americans tried to Qualify for the ET in the past, but there are plenty trying this year... so far the Euro Tour has had 6 of their 8 first stage qualifiers... Americans won 3 of them... and a quick count shows at least 27 more have advanced to 2nd stage. At least 9 more Americans are entered in the other two first stage events that start today. Not a lot of big American names as far as I can see... but a few recognizable, including some washed out PGAT/Web guys, some AM's and lots of college guys... (but then again... who ever heard of Koepka before this past year). Guliani's impish son Andrew even made it through first stage.

And there may be more Americans exempt into 2nd stage... but I'm not up on how that works on the Euro Tour, so I couldn't be sure. (maybe someone can provide the exemption criteria for each stage of the Euro Q-school?)

Here's the links to the Web.com and Euro Tour Q-schools....

http://pgatq.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/pgatq13/schedule/index.htm
http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/qualifying/tournament/index.html

This could be the best thing to happen to the European Tour in years.
I think Phillip Francis is one of the guys trying his luck and he's already played several PGA Tour events. Presumably most of these same golfers will also still be playing web.com Q-School, fields for the first four Stage 1 events should be announced shortly. Sure there'll still be some European minor-leaguers entered!

kwinigolfer wrote:This could be the best thing to happen to the European Tour in years.
I think Phillip Francis is one of the guys trying his luck and he's already played several PGA Tour events. Presumably most of these same golfers will also still be playing web.com Q-School, fields for the first four Stage 1 events should be announced shortly. Sure there'll still be some European minor-leaguers entered!

Yep... P. Francis won the qualifier at Bogogno and it'll be interesting to do a comparison...

All this makes me wonder how many people all around the world are trying to make a living out of professional golf. If they cannot qualify for one tour, they try for another. There must be many who are left behind.

Lorus -- Good point. Given the fact that golfers can "peak" well into their 30's it's a dream that dies hard. There are thousands of scratch golfers who can go very low on occasion. My observation is that at the highest professional levels it's more a game of "miss-management" and scoring when you are NOT playing well that separates so many. The margin for scoring error is razor thin.

For clarification for our friends across the pond who may not know much about US Politics. Until I googled it, I did not know who was the mayor of London (Boris Johnson)

Andrew Giuliani is Rudy Giuliani's son. Rudy Giuliani is the former Mayor of New York City.

If you google "Andrew Giuliani inauguration" you can see Rudy's getting sworn in as mayor and Andrew being a complete brat.

Andrew Giuliani was also on Golf Channel's Big Break series and he was a tool.

He also tried to sue Duke University when he was booted off the Golf Team for misbehaviour.
Rudy was a serial philanderer almost in the Woods class, not to mention being a world-class pillock; Shotrock probably remembers Andrew Giuliani's mother who was a local news reader at a certain CNY TV station.

Indeed! Donna Hanover.

Given the little I saw of him on "Big Break", be stunned if he does any damage. But, Tommy Gainey also surprised me so who knows.

Shotrock wrote:Lorus -- Good point. Given the fact that golfers can "peak" well into their 30's it's a dream that dies hard. There are thousands of scratch golfers who can go very low on occasion. My observation is that at the highest professional levels it's more a game of "miss-management" and scoring when you are NOT playing well that separates so many. The margin for scoring error is razor thin.

  Most excellent post... I think you've nailed it.

IMO we saw one example from the last few weeks on the Web.com Tour playoffs... John Peterson worked with David Tom's caddie, Scott Gneiser, but used him more like a "game & mind coach"... and the difference in his game management was night and day over what it had been for the regular season. Peterson's was still the same talent as before... but the playoffs was that talent put to more intelligent use. OOPS... sorry David... caddie permanently hijacked (another intelligent decision by Peterson IMO)

Robo, I have been told by some posters that a caddie is nothing more than a two legged mule. Because they don't hit any shots, they should be paying some jackleg $50 a loop.

Glad to see successful Americans in Europe. It for sure is a welcomed change of scenery to the seatfillers we've been accustomed to in the last years: Beem, Micheel, Hamilton, Daly.

Well they have to because our best are taking up spaces there.

But this is only aiding the view that the Euro tour is the number two tour and cementing it

And in the future we may have to change the ryder cup qualification methods

mysti,
What harm can possibly come of young players, from whatever country, playing the European Tour?
Seems a straight win/win to me.

I can't really say its a bad thing.  Just that its reaffirming the fact that the european tour is getting worse and worse each year quality wise..

Off course americans will come over here if they can't get on the pga tour because they tour is elevated quality wise and the european tour downgraded quality wise.

mysti,
These are top young players - it's not as if we're getting the dregs coming to Europe - anyone a step below the best young players just won't make it. The PGA Tour winners' circles are full of great golfers who missed out on Q-School first time round - Europe just gives them another option.
Before the Hogan Tour started, guys like Pavin and Stewart, loads of 'em played in Europe or S.Africa before earning their cards.
Subsequently people like Cink and Duval have failed Q-School but gone thru what is now the web.com.

It seems a bit dangerous to me mate and just sounds like these players will use the euro tour like a stepping stone.

Its all well and good if we just accept that fact. But hearing all the issues that surround the euro tour these days(not getting sponsorships to host events at venues that actually get the crowds!! like in england)


Shouldn't the tour be doing more to getting the top europeans and occasional yanks playing here more again instead!

I will be honest . I used to watch the ET religiously - I rarely bother about it these days, and I have a feeling i am not alone in that fact!

mysti,
Who cares if the European Tour is just a stepping stone?
Guess what? IT IS!!!!

Europe needs the best players who are strongly motivated to play their best, and that's what you get with Uihlein and Koepka.

It's not what you get with trying to lure disinterested superstars, unless the title they're chasing is prestigious in its own right.

I would say you have to grow the events on the E.T. and the better players will migrate - and there's no evidence that tournaments in England would hold any greater attraction than tournaments in Wales or Scotland. After all, CM is only 20 miles into Wales, for instance.

England has lost bundles of events. All the events were well supported. Now we get tournies in obscure locations with one man and his dog watching. It's not really anything to do with Wales or Scotland that can also get the crowds. Dubstitue UK for England if you must.

The americans coming is the cause of the tour being devalued. It's not a good thing but a product of a nagative one.

mystiroakey wrote:I will be honest . I used to watch the ET religiously - I rarely bother about it these days, and I have a feeling i am not alone in that fact!

I rarely watch any televised sport anymore. Life is too short.

The British Isles, have 5 events in a year. Only one in England (usually) but that is still a hefty number. How many should be played in england? Though isnt the main issue the extra taxes involved?

Americans wanting to play on the Euro tour is not a bad thing id say. The euro tour is a stepping stone and it has been for years and years. I cannot see that changing. Not while they keep playing in South Africa and other faraway places.

we used to have about 5 on our own when i was a child.

I used to go to about 3 events a year

we had walton heath, woburn and wenty(twice)

I am sure we had more as well.

every event was rammed and there were allways top top players at the events.

It truly isn't comparable these days. The tour has become a joke

And don't bring on the xenophobic tag. I wouldn't mind if the other events in random european places had crowds. But they don't attract any,

Its also sad that one of our flagship events is staged at the same time as the big money game in china!!(valderrama) reducing the quality of the field..

The ET has no clue, it is one of the worst run sporting events out there at this present time. It used to be very good.

mysti,
If the sponsors and top players cared enough about another tournament in England, you can be sure there'd be one, but England has become obsessed with the bling of the very top and seem not to be satisfied with anything less.
The players won't play and the sponsors would rather put their money in to something mega to make it even megaer than be content with, say, a 3M pound purse which wouldn't attract the top half dozen or so British players, let alone the perceived world's best.

Like you, I blame the E.T. for allowing things to reach this stage, but the players do nothing to attract the sponsors by relentlessly refusing to support the Wales and Scotland tournaments.
Good for Rory and McDo for playing the Irish Open, but one could be forgiven for feeling they're just paying lip service such are their feeble performances.

I dont think the European Tour is badly run, i do think that they really do not have a lot to work with. Even if they had more events in England, will the crowds come to watch Joost Luitan and other unremarkable and unmarketable faces?

Playing in England will not attract the brits abroad back.

The ET was a decent tour in the past.

Yes it was never as good as the PGA but it did have the best players in europe playing!!

So it was never a no.2 tour, just a 'regional' tour in the no.2 region!

The irony is that Europe has more players these days in the top 10, top 100 , top 1000.So in theoroy the ET could have become an even bigger tour. But they are all flocking to the states. If I was a golf pro i would probably try and do the same. I am not blaming them , I am blaming the system. The ET did not spot the issues at the time and deal with them

I am not saying I know the ins and outs of what has happened. However I do know that all the top players even 2 years ago the likes of westy were still giving the ET its major support. Year on year it has been getting worse

I will admit I have probably taken this thread on a tangent.

The fact that these high quality young yanks are coming should actually help the situation out abit, but only if we accept we are just now a stepping stone tour.

I suppose the fact is the PGA is like the PL these days and we could argue its best to watch the best play each other week in week out. And fair play to the PGA!! One tour can't get better without other tours getting worse!!

However the one niggle i have with that is that it kind of devalues the majors a bit! The majors were so special because we had the europeans playing against the yanks a few times a year only. These days the majors are just becoming a very similar event to the week in week out stuff anyway!

Just watching Sky sports news in regards to the seve trophy!

And the teams are very telling into the points i have been making!


Even two years ago -Poults,westy,hansen etc were playing.. The change in our tour since just two years is unbelievable. I take it they all just pulled out? what is the point in that when the presidents cup is on anyway!!

The ET have even timed this one well- yet no one wants to play in this event. It truly is a kick in the teeth..

I don't know which Hansen, but presumably the Danish Hansens didn't make the Team. This year, Peter Hanson withdrew because of his long-standing back injury.
Who knows about Poults and Westwood - they seem to have gone native, more interested in their mansions than their golf.

What about Donald,rose and Rory.

mysti,
I'm not an expert on how the teams are selected but not sure all of those you mention would have qualified.
Look, no argument that the team make-up is flawed - this should be for young up-and-comers in my book, but there are plenty of much bigger events that the best of British don't bother to support.

And don't think they'd be motivated to play in Jolly Old England just because - these guys are beyond caring about supporting the E.T. and one or two could even miss out on Gleneagles next year. Good riddance as far as I'm concerned.

Top 5 world rankings get in, then top 5 race to Dubai.they all refused to play.

Which is beyond sad

mysti,
But blame the structure of the tournament just as much as the players - no point in having Ryder Cup lite; far more important fish to fry.

But my main point is how the ET is viewed today and the slide it has taken..

About which no-one would disagree.

I thought the big names have tended to stay away from this event - the exception being the one held after Seve passed away (this covers Westwood for instance).

Similar situation to the Europe v Asia thing (Royal Trophy or whatever it was called prior to recent-ish re-boot announcement).

as stated , westy and poults played last year.

This year players like rock or dyson didn't even show up!!

?

Was this held last year? I thought it alternated with RC, and 2011 was the one I was thinking of when a few of the stars agreed to honour Seve by turning up.

yes it is every 2 years.
This event is a perfect example of what has happened to the ET over the years

Kwini nails it when he says it should be more for the up and coming players. It's my understanding that is what it was set up for. Not to be an event in the off year for the Ryder Cuppers. As already noted, in 2011 there were quite a few bigger names turned up to respect Seve and that name - but in "normal" years that doesn't apply.

There has been much spoken on forums and on twitter about how it is "disrespectful" to Seve that the likes of Donald, Rose, Westwood, Poulter etc have given it a miss. I'd go 180 degrees the other way and say it is disrespectful to those players, and to Seve himself that they are being criticised - that's not what this event is all about - 2011 was the exception, not the rule

I wouldn't say it's disrespectful that they are being criticised (nor would I say that the big names not turning up are being disrespectful either), I think it's healthy because it means that people care about the event and about what it means.

The ST is a good concept as a breeding ground for the up and comers/potential Ryder Cuppers. Dare I say it, it's also a proving ground for RC Captains & Vices. So it is what it is, you go with what's there, if you unearth a matchplay diamond or stumble on a great pairing, great, if you dont, so what, nothing ventured nothing gained.

Fully understand everybody wanting to be there for it in 2011 and therefore that the 2011 edition was a bit unique.

"Kwini nails it when he says it should be more for the up and coming players. It's my understanding that is what it was set up for"


ermmm


No.


The fact is the top 5 ranked players in the world qualify then the top 5 in the Race to Dubai qualify.


It doesnt matter about what you would like the event to be. It IS FOR THE BEST PLAYERS. and the players that qualify just refuse to play on a week when there isn't even another event on!


"2011 was the exception, not the rule"

Incorrect as stated the rules are simple- top 5 in the world rankings and top 5 in the race to dubai..

This event is just snubbed. even in 2011 only two decent players played, in 2009 and 2007 there were also a couple of top names as well. HOwever this year not one has played.(but it still shows how much the players respect the tour from 2007!- they don't!)


Fine if it was an event for up and coming players. But it isn't- so i am not sure where this idea has come from!!

The several trophy is a money making ploy. With seves name added to increase its appeal. As the eurobet trophy sounds crap. It initially had Phillip price and john bickerton playing though...it looks like it's been full of journeyman and decent youngsters throughout its time. With the odd star thrown in here and there. It's been around a while abducted never really found a place. Tines to scrap it.