Japan, Pacific Islanders to join Super Rugby Reboot

First topic message reminder :

Yes it's a re-boot. But panic not, I'm not referring to Morne Steyn's tactics for the upcoming Ellis park show down.

Super Rugby is set to expand to Super-18 with the addition of an NZ based Pacific Islanders team, embracing the long standing synergy between pacific and NZ rugby, and most importantly the skill and excitement boost from the islands will be matched pragmatically with the addition of a super rich Japanese franchise.  

This arrangement matches almost exactly my proposal made here just a few weeks ago. Coincidence? I think not. 606v2 is now clearly a source of ideas and inspiration for the games administrators and we should be collectively proud.

This arrangement also allows NZ players to seek the riches of Japanese rugby whilst still being eligible for All Blacks selection.

South Africa, leave this arrangement at your peril.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Does that mean Wales are poaching players from England?! North, Cuthbert, Lydiate, JD. I'll have missed someone no doubt!

No to answer the question.

They are all Welsh and North is a Welsh speaker.

Cliff Richard for example was born in India, your point is?

All of above did not have the big $$$$$$$$$$ thrown at them. Anyway I know poaching went on as far back as the 50's with Tongan's, not really fussed, just a shame that the PI's have to play 2nd fiddle to NZ all the time, but for how much longer, thats the point.

Maybe Cliff Richard should buggar off home huh

rainbow-warrior wrote:
Collins, Sivivatu, Muliaina, Rokocoko, So'oialo, Lauaki, Masoe and Toeava all Island born to start with

So who poached them and at what ages?

This odious 'go back to where they come from' attitude you have is quite disgraceful.

rainbow-warrior wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Does that mean Wales are poaching players from England?! North, Cuthbert, Lydiate, JD. I'll have missed someone no doubt!

No to answer the question.

They are all Welsh and North is a Welsh speaker.  

Cliff Richard for example was born in India, your point is?  

All of above did not have the big $$$$$$$$$$ thrown at them.  Anyway I know poaching went on as far back as the 50's with Tongan's, not really fussed, just a shame that the PI's have to play 2nd fiddle to NZ all the time, but for how much longer, thats the point.

My point was that all those people may well consider themselves Kiwis. As long as they are within the rules of selection it's all good. You say they are all Welsh but some people (idiots) may well whine about this sort of selection, as we've seen in the past.

The problem with this discussion is that the NZers are too defencive and try to bring everything back to 'we don't poach'

If we could move away from that section for a moment, there will always be people who believe NZ have ravaged the islands without concern or any sort of return, opposing that there will be people who think the British media are the devil and are spreading lies.

I want to focus on the positivity or negativity of this PI super franchise based in Auckland. The Japanese angle looks interesting, and makes sense, as the SA union won't be funding the Super tournament forever, and they need incentives to stay, especially as the threat of the PRL is encroaching south and looking to marry the 3 financial dominant forces in the game.

For me the most worrying element of this proposed franchise is that it seems to be a reaction to other nations attracting PI's. France's academy is such a poor idea and totally contradicts the ethos of the sport, yet you can bet your bottom dollar they'll site 50 years of NZ beneficiary as justification.

I firmly believe that this is an important point in the international game, especially make or break for the Islands, either we allow every tier 1 nation to set up camp on the islands or allow and PI team into our leagues, or we can finally start looking out for them and put in place a structure that allows their unions to use the talent that is at their disposal.

I would propose the PI super team would be a great idea, on the basis it catered for PI unions only, with a view of getting the PI unions involved and take over in time, maybe at some point with the view for a Samoa, Fija and Tonga super team each long term!

goneagain wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:
Collins, Sivivatu, Muliaina, Rokocoko, So'oialo, Lauaki, Masoe and Toeava all Island born to start with

So who poached them and at what ages?

This odious 'go back to where they come from' attitude you have is quite disgraceful.

As is your elitest attitude of 'screw anyone who can't afford to compete'

No 7&1/2 wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Does that mean Wales are poaching players from England?! North, Cuthbert, Lydiate, JD. I'll have missed someone no doubt!

No to answer the question.

They are all Welsh and North is a Welsh speaker.  

Cliff Richard for example was born in India, your point is?  

All of above did not have the big $$$$$$$$$$ thrown at them.  Anyway I know poaching went on as far back as the 50's with Tongan's, not really fussed, just a shame that the PI's have to play 2nd fiddle to NZ all the time, but for how much longer, thats the point.

My point was that all those people may well consider themselves Kiwis. As long as they are within the rules of selection it's all good. You say they are all Welsh but some people (idiots) may well whine about this sort of selection, as we've seen in the past.

Just for the record, none of those boys has no non welsh heritage, they all have parents who are Welsh, but were born in England, Cuthbert is the only questionable player as he is working off a welsh grandmother I think. If you were to list players who were questionable surely Manu Tuilagi, or Hartley would be better as they have no English heritage, but have been moved there and developed through the English system. These would be the closest resemblance to PI's in NZ. Calling yourself a local despite no ancestry, which is interesting because I have met plenty of PI players who have played for other nations (Lomu included) and they are all fiercely proud of their heritage.

butterfingers does Hartley's English mother count as heritage?

beshocked wrote:butterfingers does Hartley's English mother count as heritage?

Ye my bad, as soon as I posted I realised I meant Flutey not Hartley. British and Irish lion, not the nearly man  

I knew someone would call me on that straight away.

Ps I'm not villfying Tuilagi at all, all he knows is the English system and he is well within his rights to play for England, just using him as another comparible to PI players in NZ. I couldve used Falatau? Although I have a sneeky feeling he has a welsh mum, or grandmother or soething? Similarly the Vunipolas?

butterfingers wrote:
As is your elitest attitude of 'screw anyone who can't afford to compete'

Really? Wanting immigrants to be able to call their adopted country 'home'  is elitist? I guess the Daily Mail is your preferred reading material.

I am quite offended that I, and almost a quarter of my countrymen, are not allowed to consider ourselves Kiwi's because we weren't actually born there.

butterfingers wrote:there will always be people who believe NZ have ravaged the islands, without

any sort of knowledge or research - FTFY

And still we wait for your examples of the developed/developing PI players who have been scouted and poached and gone on to represent NZ.

You really need to back up ranting with facts.

So how early does poaching start then? If they're 15 it's counting as poaching. What about if they're 15 but have never played rugby? 6 too early for poaching? Was Lomu poached as he could have represented Tonga (? off the top of my head) even though he was born in NZ?

You see butterfingers, No 7&1/2 gets it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So how early does poaching start then? If they're 15 it's counting as poaching. What about if they're 15 but have never played rugby? 6 too early for poaching? Was Lomu poached as he could have represented Tonga (? off the top of my head) even though he was born in NZ?

gone

I'm not going to bother responding to you until the chip on your shoulder reduces, come back in 5 years and we'll see how you've grown. You can keep elluding to anyone who disagree's with you as racist all you like, it is simply juvenile, and I personally see you as losing any argument when you do so by default.

Ps please don't quote me and change the text within the bubble, that can get people in trouble. Please rectify.

I'll try to move this conversation on again from the petty little squabble of NZ poaching players...

I want to focus on the positivity or negativity of this PI super franchise based in Auckland. The Japanese angle looks interesting, and makes sense, as the SA union won't be funding the Super tournament forever, and they need incentives to stay, especially as the threat of the PRL is encroaching south and looking to marry the 3 financial dominant forces in the game.

For me the most worrying element of this proposed franchise is that it seems to be a reaction to other nations attracting PI's. France's academy is such a poor idea and totally contradicts the ethos of the sport, yet you can bet your bottom dollar they'll site 50 years of NZ beneficiary as justification.

butterfingers wrote:gone

I'm not going to bother responding to you until the chip on your shoulder reduces, come back in 5 years and we'll see how you've grown.  

Just silly.

butterfingers wrote:You can keep elluding to anyone who disagree's with you as racist all you like, it is simply juvenile, and I personally see you as losing any argument when you do so by default.

butterfingers wrote:Whereas the NZ internationals of PI decent have been pilfered by rugby academies on scholarships for years

Well this was in your first post in this thread, and any request for some facts to back it up results in a deafening silence. Then several posters lay the facts out for you and you see that as me/us losing the argument? Strange.

butterfingers wrote:Ps please don't quote me and change the text within the bubble, that can get people in trouble. Please rectify.

Done

butterfingers wrote:I'll try to move this conversation on again from the petty little squabble of NZ poaching players...

Yes it is petty to some, but I was serious in my remarks about taking offence at not being able to call my country home. I guess you have never spent any significant time away from your birth place.
It just gets very tiresome that the same old lies get trotted out on such a regular basis with the same level of veracity each time (ie none), despite the situation being explained again and again.
I guess the mentality of an immigrant can never really be understood by a non-immigrant.

So your happy to pigeon hole someone trying to chat about a totally different issue, because you believe I am a non immigrant. Please by all means tell me my birthplace, race, migration history, and where I call home and for what reason?

Still unable to back up your assertions of poaching then.

Apologies if I have made any incorrect assumptions. Of course I can't know any of that, by the same token you can't possibly know the motivation Pacific Island children have for moving to NZ.

So out of interest, are you an immigrant? If so, I would be interested to hear your story and if/why you only feel like you belong to your country of birth.

I am not an immigrant per se. I am English born, English raised but moved to Zimbabwe and Australia as a child. I returned to the UK to study in Wales and currently live in Scotland. My heritage and birth are both English, and I support Glos and England, but couldn't help but get obsessed with the Welsh mindset, so I always follow Blues and Wales when possible (mainly because of the girlfriends addiction).

My point is that NZ may well not be the poachers and pillagers made out by some (I never meant to imply they were, although there are lots of reported incidents by schools and colleges) but noone can deny they have been benefiting virtually single handedly in rugby from migration patterns of a player base worth it's weight in gold.

I'd like to discuss the idea of a PI super franchises effects on the PI's, not just directly but the potential carte blanche attitude that may erupt because of it.

I will repeat, I am not villifying NZ solely, I think the FFR have ade very negative moves, as have the IRFU in recent years on trying to attract opposing nations player pool.

To put it into context, if a Maori team was entered into the new HC revamp, and teams sent academies and scouts to NZ to offer underprivaliged Maori families a better way of life in the sunny south of France. How would that initiative come across and how would the NZRU react?

Thank you butterfingers. I am glad to see you have conceeded the poaching point to some extent. I apologise for some of my more provacative comments in this thread. But when the poaching accusations are so easily refuted it leaves one looking for an ulterior motive for the obsession with denying people who have been NZers from a young age the oppertunity to represent their country. As I said, I fit the immigration profile of most overseas-born ABs, ie a NZ citizen both on paper and personally from a young age. So take this somewhat personally.

Time to move on.

goneagain wrote:Thank you butterfingers. I am glad to see you have conceeded the poaching point to some extent. I apologise for some of my more provacative comments in this thread. But when the poaching accusations are so easily refuted it leaves one looking for an ulterior motive for the obsession with denying people who have been NZers from a young age the oppertunity to represent their country. As I said, I fit the immigration profile of most overseas-born ABs, ie a NZ citizen both on paper and personally from a young age. So take this somewhat personally.

Time to move on.

Top man.

So as a kiwi, are you in favour or against the PI franchise?

Do you see this idea as a genuine attempt to aid PI player pool, allow them pro rugby, and then return to their nations to aid them?
Do you think this is a darker scheme of attracting PI players to NZ?
Do you think the Blues will suffer?

What do you think of Frances academy plan on the PI's in order to attract talent? Also Irelands 'project player' plan for young SA talent?

As Ive stated I am worried as it sees to be a reaction by the NZRU to other nations trying to attract PI talent, I get the feeling this will become a free for all and the PI nations will suffer massively. But I am more of a pesemist, as anyone chatting about the HC debacle can attribute to.

In principle, I am definitely in favour of it. As I have said previously, how these players are selected is key. If it is somehow restricted to PI qualified players only the I'm sure it will absolutely help their International teams and home unions.
As has also been mentioned, a large percentage of Samoa's squad are actually NZ born anyway so they are already 'available'. It may also be a case that some NZ born/based PI players who are perhaps not quite up to SXV level yet, will get a chance on the bigger stage earlier, if they had been playing in NZ at say ITM or even club level already. If it then gets them selected for their ancestoral countries before NZ tries them then that will benefit the PIs, but perhaps those players would actually want to try and see if they can make the ABs. As I have said it is tricky.

From the links GE and I posted yesterday, it seems that SANZAR, SARU and NZRU were specifically ruling it out and it is an idea  mooted by the coaches of the other NZ franchises. So difficult to asses their motivation.  To accuse NZRU of plotting this is perhaps a little premature. If it turns out that this is the case, then I'm with you, it seems cynical at best.

I have never lived in Auckland, so it is difficult for me to comment on that.

As has also been mentioned, a large percentage of Samoa's squad are actually NZ born anyway so they are already 'available'.
Biltong suggested that only players from PI domestic systems be eligible, but do they have the numbers to provide a competative-ish squad? Assuming Europe and Japan based players will not be joining the franchise.

As for the French and Irish tactics, yes it is a worrying trend. But in these more globalised times it's difficult to tell PI people they can't try to take advantage of whatever can give them a better life. I don't really have a solution. As far as it impacting the AB's, I don't see it having to much effect. As I have said, virtually all PI ABs were not promising yougsters spotted in the Islands, but guys who were already Kiwis. Rugby League is a much bigger threat. Also one of the reasons often cited by experts and laymen alike for NZ being the best most of the time is the system that produces players from a very young age. This is not a slur, but how many players who reach their teens/young adulthood from the PI be good enough in reality?

I'm not in favour of it.
I think it will dilute the NZ talent further - most of the players will be NZers or NZ based already playing in the ITM cup or other NZ Super teams. It will weaken the Blues specifically but also all the other NZ franchises (I hate that word)

Also restricting the team to PI qualified players could make it very difficult for them to compete, what if there is a position they are weak in or need development in but can't select the right player cause he wants to play for NZ (or another country) but is otherwise available. Deliberately weakening the team makes it hard to get keep the supporters turning up.

If there was enough money to have a team based in the Islands promoting their own players that would be great but I think there just isn't the money there unless they move the games around the islands. Also I think people forget how different these "islanders" are. They are not a homogenous group of people. Fijians, Samoans, Tongans etc don't love each other.

Stating the obvious here but the problem for the Pacific Islanders isn't be in player development or finding talent but rather in holding onto their players. Unless they have significant financial backing won't this problem remain whether they are in Super Rugby or not?

There is no denying they could put out a formidable side together that could flourish with time playing quality opposition but getting hold of said players would remain the issue.

1.Mulipola
2.Paulo
3.Johnston
4.Tekori
5.Leo
6.Treviranus
7.Qera or Latu
8.Kalamofoni

9.Fotuali'i
10.Tui Pisi

11.Tagicakibau, Lemi or Tuilagi
12.Mapasua
13.George Pisi
14.Nalaga
15.Williams

There's no doubting that if they could bring the players together it would be a very strong side but as said for them to be drawn away from their current clubs mainly in England, France and Japan it would take significant financial backing.

goneagain wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:
Collins, Sivivatu, Muliaina, Rokocoko, So'oialo, Lauaki, Masoe and Toeava all Island born to start with

So who poached them and at what ages?

This odious 'go back to where they come from' attitude you have is quite disgraceful.

Go away you silly little boy

So, still unable to back it up.