Does Leonard always beat Hagler at 160 ? I think he does..

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One of Boxing's biggest disgraces is that Leonard doesn't get enough credit for beating Marvin........Truly awesome performance against the current p4p number 1..........Hagler was a quality operator and very intimidating to anybody let alone a guy with three years ring rust.....

I had it to Leonard by three rounds......

Thing is that a lot of people say well Hagler was past it!!.........Well Leonard was no spring chicken and was coming off a shocking performance against Howard and a three year layoff as alluded to earlier.......

Thing is Hagler's reign was full of fights he made more difficult..........Hamsho 1 , Vito, roldan and Duran in 83........The same year Leonard was scheduled.......

Hagler was arrogant too.......Like in 87 I believe he wanted to show how good a boxer he was to Leonard........I mean arrogance led to him fighting orthodox early and chucking rounds away...........I beleive he always wanted leonard's respect and would try to show him...It was in Marvin's psyche.........Marvin always thought he didn't get enough respect !!

For sure in 83 Hagler would be more in his prime.........But so would Leonard...........Not sure also a Hagler-Hearns attack would work either.......Leonad would be to clever to join in unlike the macho Tommy...........

I think Leonard always beats Marvin.......

In the 9th round and that was about it........He was ineffectual......

Hagler landed a heap of hurtful body shots -- lead hooks and meaty uppercuts. Substance over style (but I can see why the judges favoured Leonard on that night -- although the 118-110 score was crazy).

It wasn't a great fight -- the Mugabi win took a hell of a lot out of Marvin while Ray looked like a man with only 6 rounds in him who dragged himself over the line thanks to his immense courage and nerve.

I had it 115-113 Hagler. If I gave Leonard just one more round it would be a draw. The fight was close, I've never claimed that it was a robbery but I honestly felt that Hagler won.

Come on Mate........He must of landed two to one..........and was dancing around throwing bolos in the last round.......

Not something that tends to happen when you've been hammered to the body allnight..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Come on Mate........He must of landed two to one..........and was dancing around throwing bolos in the last round.......

Not something that tends to happen when you've been hammered to the body allnight..

No he didn't Truss. Official punch stats showed that during the whole fight, Leonard landed only 15 punches more than Hagler.

Atila wrote:I had it 115-113 Hagler. If I gave Leonard just one more round it would be a draw. The fight was close, I've never claimed that it was a robbery but I honestly felt that Hagler won.

I know chris on here agrees with me.........Thing is it's a contentious thing where people have a different way of scoring the fight.........

I believe Leonard outboxed him........Ko and The Ring Magazine agree with me which means nothing..........Because some publications gave it Hagler......

I'll agree a lot of Leonard's work was show but for me Hagler didn't do enough.......and letting Leonard battle off the ropes in round 9 so easily was a surprise.......

No one Is right or wrong here.........Consensus is split 60/40 probably with me.......But it's here nor there..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Atila wrote:I had it 115-113 Hagler. If I gave Leonard just one more round it would be a draw. The fight was close, I've never claimed that it was a robbery but I honestly felt that Hagler won.

I know chris on here agrees with me.........Thing is it's a contentious thing where people have a different way of scoring the fight.........

I believe Leonard outboxed him........Ko and The Ring Magazine agree with me which means nothing..........Because some publications gave it Hagler......

I'll agree a lot of Leonard's work was show but for me Hagler didn't do enough.......and letting Leonard battle off the ropes in round 9 so easily was a surprise.......

No one Is right or wrong here.........Consensus is split 60/40 probably with me.......But it's here nor there..

Consensus split where? I think most on this thread had Hagler nicking it. Leonard only just pipped some of the rounds I gave him -- Hagler -- despite looking clumsy as hell at points -- did more subtle work. I don't imagine he had a scratch on him afterwards whereas Ray would have been sore as hell.

I'm not talking about consensus on this thread.....

You just can't concede anything on any thread can you..........

Alright Hagler won easy...........

I wonder if Hagler's team had kept Harry Gibbs as one of the judges, and he had scored the fight 7-5 to Hagler like he said he did, would we still be having these debates?

Ko, The ring, Gil clancy, Tim Ryan, Boxing illustrated, Reg gutteridge, Jim watt, Al Bernstein all had Leonard winning so I reckon we would be...........

Well, I've got my card here from the last time I scored the fight (let's be honest, most of us will have had more than one crack at it!).

Usually, I've ended up with Leonard by one or two points (no wider than that) but there have been a couple of times where I've had it a draw, 114-114. Last time out I had Leonard winning the first, second, fourth, sixth, seventh and tenth, Hagler the third, eighth, ninth, eleventh and twelfth. I had the fifth as a 10-10, so 115-114 to Leonard.

The caveats were that, if I absolutely had to split them in the fifth, I'd have probably gone with Marvin, just about. That round, along with the eighth, was a horrible one to score the way I saw it, and explains why I have had it all square once or twice before. But to me, I can just never quite see Hagler winning it outright, although if someone told me they had Marvin by a round or so I could understand that.

Thing is, whenever Hagler's die-hard fans talk on this fight, they often seem to fire off more reasons as to why Marvin shouldn't have lost, rather than seeming to believe that he really deserved to win (if that makes sense), which says a lot to me.

"Leonard never really hurt him." Well, I agree there. But lots of fights have been won on points without the victor really hurting their opponent. "Leonard was hurt in the ninth." He sure was, but hurting your opponent in a certain round only wins you one round, at the end of the day. Aside from that good left hook in the corner which Hagler landed just seconds before the final bell, that's the only time he ever made a serious inroad in to Leonard's defence.

A lot of Leonard's landed punches weren't that hurtful, but you've still got to take them over a fighter who is marching forward but, crucially, just not throwing at all, be they hurtful shots or otherwise. That was how quite a few of the early rounds unfolded and, as such, I think Marvin just left himself a bit too much of a mountain to climb by the time he really went to work in about the eighth round or so.

I can see why many still plump for Hagler but, in my heart of hearts and in what I hope and believe is a view I've protected from bias, Leonard was the better man on the night - just.

Hagler lost the fight Chris........More than Leonard won it !!

Because he was arrogant and stupid in the first four rounds.........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Ko, The ring, Gil clancy, Tim Ryan, Boxing illustrated, Reg gutteridge, Jim watt, Al Bernstein all had Leonard winning so I reckon we would be...........

Didn't The Ring have Leonard winning the fight 119-110 or 119-109? I'm sure it was something like that.

88Chris05 wrote:Well, I've got my card here from the last time I scored the fight (let's be honest, most of us will have had more than one crack at it!).

Usually, I've ended up with Leonard by one or two points (no wider than that) but there have been a couple of times where I've had it a draw, 114-114. Last time out I had Leonard winning the first, second, fourth, sixth, seventh and tenth, Hagler the third, eighth, ninth, eleventh and twelfth. I had the fifth as a 10-10, so 115-114 to Leonard.

The caveats were that, if I absolutely had to split them in the fifth, I'd have probably gone with Marvin, just about. That round, along with the eighth, was a horrible one to score the way I saw it, and explains why I have had it all square once or twice before. But to me, I can just never quite see Hagler winning it outright, although if someone told me they had Marvin by a round or so I could understand that.

Thing is, whenever Hagler's die-hard fans talk on this fight, they often seem to fire off more reasons as to why Marvin shouldn't have lost, rather than seeming to believe that he really deserved to win (if that makes sense), which says a lot to me.

"Leonard never really hurt him." Well, I agree there. But lots of fights have been won on points without the victor really hurting their opponent. "Leonard was hurt in the ninth." He sure was, but hurting your opponent in a certain round only wins you one round, at the end of the day. Aside from that good left hook in the corner which Hagler landed just seconds before the final bell, that's the only time he ever made a serious inroad in to Leonard's defence.

A lot of Leonard's landed punches weren't that hurtful, but you've still got to take them over a fighter who is marching forward but, crucially, just not throwing at all, be they hurtful shots or otherwise. That was how quite a few of the early rounds unfolded and, as such, I think Marvin just left himself a bit too much of a mountain to climb by the time he really went to work in about the eighth round or so.

I can see why many still plump for Hagler but, in my heart of hearts and in what I hope and believe is a view I've protected from bias, Leonard was the better man on the night - just.

I thought the 5th was a clear Hagler round. I thought the 10th was really tight but I gave it and the 7th to Hagler. Of course scoring live is far more difficult -- there were a lot of emotions at play -- the crowd were going nuts for Ray's flashy stuff. Perhaps a draw would have been fitting for two legendary fighters at the end of their careers.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hagler lost the fight Chris........More than Leonard won it !!

If this was true, then doesn't Leonard get too much credit for the win? And wouldn't Hagler have beaten him in a rematch?

Well as I said, Haz, if I absolutely had to split 'em in the fifth I'd have gone with Hagler. As it was, last time I watched it, my gut feeling just told me 10-10 at that stage.

I thought it was a classic case of quantity against quality; Hagler's short left hook and right uppercut were the hardest, most eye-catching punches of the round, but he wasn't terribly busy in the rest of it. Singularly, no Leonard attack in that round was quite as good, but he made more efforts to rack up points, putting together some decent one-twos and at one stage walking Hagler on to a decent shot coming off the ropes after Marvin had been made to miss so wildly he'd basically swung himself full circle. Leonard seemed in control for slightly longer, whereas Hagler's contributions were probably more impressive when they did come.

If it's any consolation I agree you can't give Leonard the round outright really, and that if anyone did deserve to have it, it was Hagler. No real objection from me.

Wow, we really are going through this fight with a fine tooth comb here!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Ko, The ring, Gil clancy, Tim Ryan, Boxing illustrated, Reg gutteridge, Jim watt, Al Bernstein all had Leonard winning so I reckon we would be...........

Bernstein scored it 115-113 for Hagler. Larry Merchant and Bruce Trampler had it a draw. Hopkins had Hagler as did McIlvanney.

Associated Press: 117-112 Hagler
Baltimore Sun: 7-5 in rounds Leonard
Boston Globe: 117-111 Leonard
Boston Herald 116-113 Leonard
Chicago Sun-Times: 115-114 Hagler
Chicago Tribune: 7-5 in rounds Hagler
HBO Judge Harold Lederman: 115-113 Leonard
Houston Chronicle: 115-114 Leonard
KO Magazine: 118-111 Leonard
New York Daily News: 117-111 Leonard
New York Post: 114-114
New York Times: 114-114
Newsday: 115-114 Hagler
Oakland Tribune: 117-112 Leonard
The Ring: 115-113 Leonard
San Jose Mercury-News: 116-115 Hagler
Washington Post: 114-114

88Chris05 wrote:Well as I said, Haz, if I absolutely had to split 'em in the fifth I'd have gone with Hagler. As it was, last time I watched it, my gut feeling just told me 10-10 at that stage.

I thought it was a classic case of quantity against quality; Hagler's short left hook and right uppercut were the hardest, most eye-catching punches of the round, but he wasn't terribly busy in the rest of it. Singularly, no Leonard attack in that round was quite as good, but he made more efforts to rack up points, putting together some decent one-twos and at one stage walking Hagler on to a decent shot coming off the ropes after Marvin had been made to miss so wildly he'd basically swung himself full circle. Leonard seemed in control for slightly longer, whereas Hagler's contributions were probably more impressive when they did come.

If it's any consolation I agree you can't give Leonard the round outright really, and that if anyone did deserve to have it, it was Hagler. No real objection from me.

Wow, we really are going through this fight with a fine tooth comb here!

It's one of those, though isn't it? 26 years on and people are still arguing over it. It should be a test case for aspiring judges (with anyone scoring too highly one way or the other going back for extra tuition!). I thought Leonard was winning the round until the last 30 seconds but Hagler landed that big right uppercut and finished strongly, pounding Ray's body against the ropes (some of the hardest punches landed all night). Close, though, closer on second viewing (he seemed to come alive when you watch it in conjunction with the first four rounds).

I can see a 10-10, too.

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Ko, The ring, Gil clancy, Tim Ryan, Boxing illustrated, Reg gutteridge, Jim watt, Al Bernstein all had Leonard winning so I reckon we would be...........

Bernstein scored it 115-113 for Hagler. Larry Merchant and Bruce Trampler had it a draw. Hopkins had Hagler as did McIlvanney.

Associated Press: 117-112 Hagler
Baltimore Sun: 7-5 in rounds Leonard
Boston Globe: 117-111 Leonard
Boston Herald 116-113 Leonard
Chicago Sun-Times: 115-114 Hagler
Chicago Tribune: 7-5 in rounds Hagler
HBO Judge Harold Lederman: 115-113 Leonard
Houston Chronicle: 115-114 Leonard
KO Magazine: 118-111 Leonard
New York Daily News: 117-111 Leonard
New York Post: 114-114
New York Times: 114-114
Newsday: 115-114 Hagler
Oakland Tribune: 117-112 Leonard
The Ring: 115-113 Leonard
San Jose Mercury-News: 116-115 Hagler
Washington Post: 114-114

If it helps you any, Eddie Futch and Ray Mancini both had Hagler winning.

I'm not bothered I'm happy to accept it's contentious........

Which the above shows........Not playing boobie for tat.........

I'm the tat..

Obviously to counter Bernstein who I got wrong...........Ryan, Clancy, Watt and Gutteridge from the Brit broadcast..

Boxing illustrated also.........

So contentious is the call..........as the above list shows.

Atila may remember a poll we did on the old 606, before many on here were around.

Well over 100 votes, slight edge to Leonard, but not significant.