Red Bull - What Does The Long-Term Future Hold?

I was pondering this the other day. In F1 they are a relatively new team to formed in 2005 and right now with Vettel and Newey in their armoury they are the team to beat and at the top of the pile. Right now they are the very best. However, go forward five or ten years when Vettel and Newey more than likely have moved on and what will become of the team? What I am getting at is are they in F1 to establish themselves over decades like McLaren and Williams did or will their enthusiasm for F1 wane when or if success dries up? In F1 today the only truly long term teams left are Ferrari, McLaren and Williams so will Red Bull go on to match their longevity or not?

*dusts off crystal ball*

Well RB have their fingers in a lot of pies and either sponsor, or are actively involved in a lot of events, so if their interest in F1 is purely based on maintaining a high profile, through sustained success, then there is a good chance they may pull out. Plenty of other well-financed teams have folded, due to their main sponsors pulling out, when the success they expected hasn't materialised.

Its true that RB have the financial clout and prestige to attract pretty much whoever they want, but thats no guarantee of success. F1 tends to be cyclical (look at whats happened to Williams, McLaren and Ferrari over the years) and its inevitable IMO that Red Bull will suffer a similar decline if they stick around long enough.

What happens next will depend on the company's commitment to F1. Teams like Williams, McLaren and Ferrari have been in the sport a long time and the latter two use F1 as a means of building prestige to sell road cars (same could be said of Mercedes). Williams are a privateer team who don't really have any outside interests...F1 is all they do.

Red Bull can always find other means of promoting their energy drinks.

I also think if anything were to happen to RB, it would also likely spell the end of Toro Rosso.

Spot on post dyrewolfe.

It would be good to see them become 'a fixtures and fittings' team here for many decades. That may depend on a few things though such as how successful they can remain and if they can morph into more than just an F1 team and become something of an F1 institution and look to veer away from Red Bull's standpoint of a drinks company with ownership in an F1 team.

Not sure if people have seen this but apparently the Energy drink firm, Red Bull are looking to buy an English premier league side to add to their portfolio.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/red-bull-looking-buy-english-2366075

I personally don't think the firm will ever become a 'fixture & fittings' team within F1. So far, everything has fallen into place for the team, however once the team loses it's dominance & the limelight is taken away from the team & the brand at the front of the grid, then I'm sure they would end up leaving & moving onto their next project, where they can promote a successful brand elsewhere. Losing Newey & Vettel is only a matter of time. It's when, not if. Let's not forget their a energy drink firm first, not a car manufacturer, so when that 'difficult' stage of not winning in an entire season comes, that's when the desire & motivation to continue in the sport will be revealed.

Still can't believe that a team that has been around for less than a decade have managed to make mugs out of Mclaren and Ferrari for nigh on 5 consecutive years. And if it turns out that they ARE just 'passing thru' then OUCH!!

John wrote:Not sure if people have seen this but apparently the Energy drink firm, Red Bull are looking to buy an English premier league side to add to their portfolio.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/red-bull-looking-buy-english-2366075

I personally don't think the firm will ever become a 'fixture & fittings' team within F1. So far, everything has fallen into place for the team, however once the team loses it's dominance & the limelight is taken away from the team & the brand at the front of the grid, then I'm sure they would end up leaving & moving onto their next project, where they can promote a successful brand elsewhere. Losing Newey & Vettel is only a matter of time. It's when, not if. Let's not forget their a energy drink firm first, not a car manufacturer, so when that 'difficult' stage of not winning in an entire season comes, that's when the desire & motivation to continue in the sport will be revealed.

Well that is why I did say if they veer away from their roots they may become 'fixtures and fittings'. By that I mean if a real F1 enthusiast wrestles control of the team away from Red Bull and takes them into a different domain then they have built a base in the last ten years so they may become an established team. Probably the ideal scenario would be Red Bull allowing their stake in the team to be sold on cheaply in return for the keeping of the Red Bull name to the team - great free advertising.

SteveG wrote:Still can't believe that a team that has been around for less than a decade have managed to make mugs out of Mclaren and Ferrari for nigh on 5 consecutive years. And if it turns out that they ARE just 'passing thru' then OUCH!!

It has been known before you known. Bennetton did it in the late 1990's and early 2000's. All you need is investment and a solid team of individuals with great talent and ...hey presto.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

SteveG wrote:Still can't believe that a team that has been around for less than a decade have managed to make mugs out of Mclaren and Ferrari for nigh on 5 consecutive years. And if it turns out that they ARE just 'passing thru' then OUCH!!

It has been known before you known. Bennetton did it in the late 1990's and early 2000's. All you need is investment and a solid team of individuals with great talent and ...hey presto.

Yes but not to the level of Red Bull who have done the double (WDC and WCC) for four years on the bounce. Utter domination.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

SteveG wrote:Still can't believe that a team that has been around for less than a decade have managed to make mugs out of Mclaren and Ferrari for nigh on 5 consecutive years. And if it turns out that they ARE just 'passing thru' then OUCH!!

It has been known before you known. Bennetton did it in the late 1990's and early 2000's. All you need is investment and a solid team of individuals with great talent and ...hey presto.

Good funding, employing the greatest F1 car designer of all-time and up and coming driver coupled with McLaren and Ferrari going off the boil = total domination.

Yeah - 4 drivers' and constructors' titles in 8 years is impressive by anyone's standards.

That said, I think Craig has hit on a possible outcome, if and when they decide they've had enough of F1: sell the team lock, stock and barrel to a new owner and simply pay a sponsorship fee to keep the Red Bull name on the cars (I can't envisage a scenario where they'd get free sponsorship, unless it was made a condition of the sale).

After all, it started out as Stewart Racing, before becoming Jaguar. No reason it couldn't go on to become something else in the future.

It's all unfolding now.

The cycle of F1 domination for RB is soon to be ending

Red Bull have lost four key personnel of Adrian Newey over the winter. Shaun Whitehead has joined Williams, Prodromou to McLaren & now Mercedes have snatched Mark Ellis and Giles Wood, who will join Mercedes in June 2014.

It was obviously going to happen at some stage but you feel that has been accelerated with these key departures. I can see Adrian Newey probably retiring from the sport, once the RB domination is over. Everything he produces seems to be banned after a while or the rules changed in order to handicap him & his genius.

Vettel to jump to Ferrari looks almost nailed on for me in 2015. Be interesting to see what direction of performance RB head in now over the next couple of seasons.

Well, if he feels he's had enough, I'm sure Adrian Newey could retire comfortably.

On the other hand, he could follow Vettel to Ferrari. If anyone has enough money / prestige to tempt him to continue, it would be them.

Then we'd be back to the days of Ferrari domination (probably). Same problem - just a different team.

Don't think losing the personnel will hit RB too badly, as Newey seems to be the lynchpin. I think what will hit them is if and when Vettel joins Ferrari. That would likely spell the end of their success and therefore (probably) the team. Unless they found a buyer to take it over.

Or there's the scenario where Vettel joins Ferrari, but Newey remains with RB. Now that could be all sorts of interesting...

dyrewolfe wrote:I think what will hit them is if and when Vettel joins Ferrari. That would likely spell the end of their success.

I don't think, in reality, that is true. Vettel was lucky enough to be in the seat at the beginning of the dominating spell and has grabbed the chance with both hands & been richly rewarded. I see what you mean but, for me, Vettel leaving for Ferrari is going to coincide with a rule change period & many personnel leaving RB, who are crucial to the recent success. I think naively people will read that, it will appear that losing Vettel & then RB's form going off is solely down to losing the driver, when in fact, the cycle had merely come to an end & that Vettel had realised that fact & jumped ship before it eventually affected his reputation. See what I'm saying, do you agree?

Well obviously it's important to get the story straight in advance that Vettel is irrelevant. And lucky, of course.

The sport has started to move decisively towards recognising the brilliance of the young German. This sort of gullible acceptance of the Alonso party line is drifting out of date.

John wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:I think what will hit them is if and when Vettel joins Ferrari. That would likely spell the end of their success.

I don't think, in reality, that is true. Vettel was lucky enough to be in the seat at the beginning of the dominating spell and has grabbed the chance with both hands & been richly rewarded. I see what you mean but, for me, Vettel leaving for Ferrari is going to coincide with a rule change period & many personnel leaving RB, who are crucial to the recent success. I think naively people will read that, it will appear that losing Vettel & then RB's form going off is solely down to losing the driver, when in fact, the cycle had merely come to an end & that Vettel had realised that fact & jumped ship before it eventually affected his reputation. See what I'm saying, do you agree?

Sort of - I think. But no, I don't agree entirely.

RB's continued success will depend on whether they can recruit similarly skilled personnel to replace those who have left / are leaving. Also, I think a lot will depend on whether Adrian Newey decides to stay, retires, or joins another team. As I see it, Newey and Vettel are the key personnel and Red Bull's fate will be decided by where those two end up.

While F1 is definitely mostly about the car, you also need a driver who can extract the maximum performance out of it. Vettel can drive to a strategy like few others I've seen...another reason he reminds me of Schumacher, meaning the team have been able to keep the car on its peak performance curve all the way through races.

Contrast that with Webber, who usually struggled with his tyres long before Seb did, meaning he could often only match Vettel's pace for short periods of time (leaving team orders and technical problems aside).

So, in summary, if Vettel joins Ferrari, as seems likely, Red Bull will be losing their "X Factor" which helped make the car as dominant as it was, to one of their main rivals. If Newey stays, they will still likely have one of the best cars on the grid, but much will depend on whether they can attract another top driver to their #1 race seat - someone of Alonso's or Hamilton's calibre. If Newey decides to call it a day, not only will RB have lost the most successful driver of the current era, but also the best designer. If he retires, it won't be so bad, but if he goes to someone like McLaren or Ferrari, it will be another advantage to their rivals.

My comment about Vettel joining Ferrari spelling the end of RB's dominance was predicated on Newey also leaving - you took my quote rather out of context.

All interesting stuff & let's see what unfolds. I think if RB are off the pace though in 2014, Vettel will almost certainly be jumping ship. Be interesting to see what F1 fans opinions are on that.

 

John wrote:All interesting stuff & let's see what unfolds. I think if RB are off the pace though in 2014, Vettel will almost certainly be jumping ship. Be interesting to see what F1 fans opinions are on that.

 

Oh, in the mind of some 'fans' if he moves it'll be because he just needs the best car. If he stays it'll be because they kept the best car.

bogbrush wrote:

John wrote:All interesting stuff & let's see what unfolds. I think if RB are off the pace though in 2014, Vettel will almost certainly be jumping ship. Be interesting to see what F1 fans opinions are on that.

 

Oh, in the mind of some 'fans' if he moves it'll be because he just needs the best car. If he stays it'll be because they kept the best car.

What about Seb's mind? Surely its in his best interests to go to (or stay with) whichever team is likely to have the best car?

I'm sure he won't be doing it for the money - he must already have plenty. Seb's in this to break records and be recognised as the most successful driver in the history of the sport. I'm guessing his loyalty to any team will only last as long as they can provide him with race-winning cars.

All I'm saying is that his driving skills will be denigrated whatever he does.

They wouldn't, not if he left RB & Newey & went on to win multiple titles at Ferrari in a different era of rules & regulations in F1. Yeah, leaving RB would be criticised to an extent but as dyrewolfe says, his mindframe is about being selfish & ruthless in his quest to not only match Schumacher's seven titles but by also putting himself in the best car.

Not everyone can be liked & not all your decisions will be supported in life. I'm not sure he cares whatsoever about people's views on him & his ability. Let's just see what he does & what unfolds. Really just looking forward to next year now, it's already been too long.

I don't agree John; a great many people are resistant to facts on many issues. I'm pretty sure if Vettel went as you say, it would be out down to a smart move.

Anyway, as is said ad nauseum, every title winner in history has chased the best package. Every single one. A false standard is created for Vettel.

I cannot see Seb leaving Red Bull anytime soon. If Adrian Newry retires/moves on and the Red Bull package is weakened then you'd think Ferrari may be his next port of call. The measure of the man would be if he can propel them back into the realms of winning world titles.

On that basis there's only one man in the last 30 years worth talking about. Sadly, he's critically ill.

That was just a hypothetical. We keep being fed that Seb is this, that and the other and if that is so I expect the unexpected and if they don't deliver then you are left wondering. But as we all know here everyone will have their own opinions on what makes one a legend in sport

Oh ok it was just a hypothetical. It read just like a clear statement and looked very much like what is put at him time after time.

Still, it was a hypothetical that Schumacher delivered big time. 21 years without a title it was (oh, and Adrian Newey was designing for other teams - I guess that makes it more or less impossible, right?).

Get with it eh BB. Ferrari had A. The budget B. The team members and you seem to forget their designer was Rory Byrne. He is the only other designer capable of holding a candle to Adrian Newey (as in designed multiple world title winning cars) so everything came together at the right time.

I will go as far as to say if Seb went to Ferrari in a couple of years time and that team had the team members and designers it has now but wins the world title it would far surpass Schumi's achievement in the short-term.

Thing is though CC, Ferrari have Allison on board, along with some very intelligent brains from Lotus now. Things are starting to take shape at Ferrari for a recovery & I would expect by 2015 they would be very competitive, just as Vettel decides to join. Also, would not surprise me to be Ross Brawn rocking up at Ferrari.

John wrote:Thing is though CC, Ferrari have Allison on board, along with some very intelligent brains from Lotus now. Things are starting to take shape at Ferrari for a recovery & I would expect by 2015 they would be very competitive, just as Vettel decides to join. Also, would not surprise me to be Ross Brawn rocking up at Ferrari.

Those at Ferrari at present are not in the same class as others in their field - past or present. So if Seb went to that same team and won the world title I would be first to say it would surpass Schumi's achievement when he returned world constructors title to Ferrari for the first time.

John wrote:Thing is though CC, Ferrari have Allison on board, along with some very intelligent brains from Lotus now. Things are starting to take shape at Ferrari for a recovery & I would expect by 2015 they would be very competitive, just as Vettel decides to join. Also, would not surprise me to be Ross Brawn rocking up at Ferrari.

Ah phew! For a moment there you had me thinking there was a scenario where Vettel gets credit!

How about if he wins in a Honda Civic? Is that as good as Lewis in the Merc (obviously the tyres favour the Civic, but nonetheless......)?

CaledonianCraig wrote:Get with it eh BB. Ferrari had A. The budget B. The team members and you seem to forget their designer was Rory Byrne. He is the only other designer capable of holding a candle to Adrian Newey (as in designed multiple world title winning cars) so everything came together at the right time.

I will go as far as to say if Seb went to Ferrari in a couple of years time and that team had the team members and designers it has now but wins the world title it would far surpass Schumi's achievement in the short-term.

One of their key team members being a certain Ross Brawn...

I'd agree that the current Ferrari team isn't of the same calibre as the one Schumacher worked with, so if Seb went there and won titles, you'd have to say it was some achievement.

I'm getting confused now. I thought Adrian Newey was the second coming. Now Rory Byrne is one too, and it looks like Ross Brawn counts too (except when he's at Mercedes, obviously).

Is it just easier to see who is working for Schumacher or Vettel and declare them the cause of wins?

Adrian Newey going on world title winning cars designed holds the record so is like The Beatles. Rory Byrne has also designed multiple world title winning cars (not as many as Newey though) so could be likened to The Rolling Stones. As for Ross Brawn his achievements speak for themselves. True at Mercedes his magic never rubbed off but it was never an easy relationship between him and Mercedes but look at how he faired at Brawn GP, Ferrari and Bennetton.

Yes, I know who they are.......

bogbrush wrote:I'm getting confused now. I thought Adrian Newey was the second coming. Now Rory Byrne is one too, and it looks like Ross Brawn counts too (except when he's at Mercedes, obviously).

Is it just easier to see who is working for Schumacher or Vettel and declare them the cause of wins?

To turn your argument around, why wasn't Schumacher able to turn Mercedes into a winning team, if he was solely responsible for Ferrari's success? Could it be a coincidence that both Brawn and Byrne were at Benetton when he won his first 2 titles?

Succeeding in F1 is 90% about having a good car. To have a good car you need a good team with competent management to steer them in the right direction. That means having top chief designers and team principals.

I'm not making an argument, I'm just amused at how some folk will select the facts to underpin their opinions.

Schumacher was way, way past his best on his 2nd spell though. That was obvious.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula-one/26721387 - Threatening to quit   

Dominance has gone, Vettel is not superhuman, they clearly break the rules & their now crying like babies. Embarrassing.

John wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula-one/26721387 - Threatening to quit   

Dominance has gone, Vettel is not superhuman, they clearly break the rules & their now crying like babies. Embarrassing.

A mountain out of a molehill I think by the BBC. The lion's share of the report concentrates on Red Bull pledging to close the gap on Mercedes so why would they bother if they truly are going to quit. I just think it is another case of a big team flexing their muscles in times of dispute. In the past I have seen it from Mercedes and Ferrari in F1 so won't pay any notice to this.

I'm sure the excess fuel in Ricciardo's car was an honest mistake...though a mistake nonetheless, which had to be penalised.

Considering how long Mateschitz has been involved with motorsport, you'd think he know the conesquences of things like this and be grown-up enough to accept them...just like everyone else has to.

Had to laugh at this:

Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz says his company could quit Formula 1 if he is not happy with the way the sport is run.

His remarks follow Red Bull driver Daniel Ricciardo's exclusion from the Australian Grand Prix and the adoption of new rules.

Mateschitz said Red Bull's future in F1 was more "to do with sportsmanship and political influence" than finance.

He said: "In these issues there is a clear limit to what we can accept."

He also referred to the "inappropriate politicisation" of the sport.

This - coming from a man who probably wields a disproportionate amount of influence in both WRC and F1, as both a team owner and sponsor. And when it comes to "sportsmanship", funny how we never head a peep out of him after Vettel ignored the infamous "Multi 21" team order.

I don't think RB (the company) will pull out of F1 as long as Vettel is in the sport...after all he has to be one of their most valuable marketing tools. Just another case of dummy-spitting from someone who really should know better.