Montpellier vs Ulster

Montpellier

1. Yvan Watremez - 2. Mickaël Ivaldi - 3.Maximiliano Bustos - 4.Jim HAMILTON - 5. Thibaut Privat - 6. Fulgence Ouedraogo (Captain) - 7. Mamuka Gorgodze - 8. Kélian Galletier - 9. Jonathan Pélissié - 10. François Trinh-Duc - 11. Yoan Audrin - 12. Wynand Olivier - 13. Anthony Tuitavaké - 14. Timoci Nagusa - 15. Anthony Floch

Replacements 16. Thomas Bianchin - 17. Misha Nariashvili - 18. Nicolas Mas - 19. Fred Quercy - 20. Robins Tchalé-Watchou - 21. Benoit Paillaugue - 22. Thomas Combezou - 23. Benoit Sicart

Ulster

1. Tom Court - 2. Rory Best - 3. Declan Fitzpatrick - 4. Johann Muller (Captain) - 5. Dan Tuohy - 6. Robbie Diack - 7. Chris Henry - 8. Roger Wilson - 9. Ruan Pienaar - 10. Paddy Jackson - 11. Tommy Bowe - 12. Luke Marshall - 13. Darren Cave - 14. Andrew Trimble - 15. Jared Payne

Replacements 16. Rob Herring - 17. Callum Black - 18. John Afoa - 19. Lewis Stevenson - 20. Iain Henderson - 21. Paul Marshall - 22. Stuart Olding - 23. Michael Allen

No problem with motivation this week- whoever wins this game, takes control of the group.

Is a win possible? Very much so, although we couldn't be up against a more in-form team. Recent thrashings of Clermont and Toulouse at the hands of Montpellier on their own patch will mean we are the underdogs for the bookies and most neutrals. Right now, its probably one of the hardest places to go in Europe.

That said, we have the depth up front and the classy tactical kickers in our backline to get through this game with a result. A losing bonus point would not be the end of the world but we should be targeting this as a win; play territory, gain parity in the set piece and take our points when on offer and we will be in the mix in the last 10 minutes. Pienaar, Jackson and Payne will be crucial in guiding us through this game but if our tactical kicking and our kick chase is as good this week as it was on Friday we can frustrate them. But we'll also have to negate a typically powerful scrum and maintain very high standards in the breakdown and lineout. Enough to win? We'll see but I genuinely think we have the tools to win away from home in Europe this season- in this group away wins will be like gold dust so this is massive opportunity for us to assert our credentials.

Agreed there Notch.
We have a pack that can take on any other in Europe at the moment and a backline that, despite showing quite severe rustiness, can most definately set the world on fire with class running through it from 9 to 15.
Montpellier may be a tough place to go right now but they will know that this Ulster side are a dangerous prospect, a wounded animal that has yet to hit 3rd gear. If we can keep them on edge, cut out the mistakes and gain parity in the set piece at the very least then we have what it takes to win.

One question, will Afoa be in the mix ?????

Pete330v2 wrote:Agreed there Notch.
We have a pack that can take on any other in Europe at the moment and a backline that, despite showing quite severe rustiness, can most definately set the world on fire with class running through it from 9 to 15.

Agree on the backline but not so sure about the pack this season. Unless we get a fully fit and motivated Afoa back our tight 5 may struggle against the big French and English packs. The Tigers let us off the hook on Friday, with some help from Poite, because our scrum was in all sorts of trouble at times early on.

This is a massive game, anything less than a point an we are gone in this pool. It will be one of our best ever wins if we can turn Montpellier over at home I think.

rodders wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Agreed there Notch.
We have a pack that can take on any other in Europe at the moment and a backline that, despite showing quite severe rustiness, can most definately set the world on fire with class running through it from 9 to 15.

Agree on the backline but not so sure about the pack this season. Unless we get a fully fit and motivated Afoa back our tight 5 may struggle against the big French and English packs. The Tigers let us off the hook on Friday, with some help from Poite, because our scrum was in all sorts of trouble at times early on.

This is a massive game, anything less than a point an we are gone in this pool. It will be one of our best ever wins if we can turn Montpellier over at home I think.

In terms of motivation he seemed fine when the camera's turned to him and Ferris in the stand on Friday night. He looked as though he was still a fully fledged member of the squad. Question will be fitness.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

rodders wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Agreed there Notch.
We have a pack that can take on any other in Europe at the moment and a backline that, despite showing quite severe rustiness, can most definately set the world on fire with class running through it from 9 to 15.

Agree on the backline but not so sure about the pack this season. Unless we get a fully fit and motivated Afoa back our tight 5 may struggle against the big French and English packs. The Tigers let us off the hook on Friday, with some help from Poite, because our scrum was in all sorts of trouble at times early on.

This is a massive game, anything less than a point an we are gone in this pool. It will be one of our best ever wins if we can turn Montpellier over at home I think.

In terms of motivation he seemed fine when the camera's turned to him and Ferris in the stand on Friday night.  He looked as though he was still a fully fledged member of the squad.  Question will be fitness.

Except that he was on the phone to his missus instead of watching the game!

Montpelier struggled at scrum time against Treviso, were a bit too undisciplined and not clinical enough... Breakdown will be interesting as this is an area where they are strong. Some good ball carriers in the backrow as well although beattie will still be injured. Gorgodze and hamilton are just back as well. Better play them now than in 2 month time when their new sanzar players are there (including ranger). Their main threat is their scrum half Pelissie, can score tries on his own and is good around te fringes. Pretty even matchup imo. Home advantage is big for Montpelier though.

Watching Williams collide with Gorgodze will be worth tuning in for alone!  

At the beginning of the season I thought our scrum would have been a weakness but the pack has really punched above it's weight. Add afoa and that front row would be looking pretty destructive. I agree Poite may have helped at times but when push came to shove (quite literally) our lads looked very impressive.
Pelissie has been a huge threat and will have to be kept under pressure if we are to get any result from this match. He should and will be targeted.

Pete330v2 wrote:At the beginning of the season I thought our scrum would have been a weakness but the pack has really punched above it's weight. Add afoa and that front row would be looking pretty destructive.

No I agree, the pack have done really well - punched above its weight as you say, but minus Afoa and with Muller not quite the force he was it is going to be hard to keep it up against the heavyweight packs, especially away from home when you won't get the decisions.

Last season I felt we had a pack to compete with anyone's, this year I don't think so. To win the competition this year we'll have to throw the ball around, and also probably do it in the road. If we can escape this pool we have a shot but definitely we aren't amongst the favourites this season and the odds reflect that.

#SUFTCAB

rodders wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:At the beginning of the season I thought our scrum would have been a weakness but the pack has really punched above it's weight. Add afoa and that front row would be looking pretty destructive.

No I agree, the pack have done really well - punched above its weight as you say, but minus Afoa and with Muller not quite the force he was it is going to be hard to keep it up against the heavyweight packs, especially away from home when you won't get the decisions.

Last season I felt we had a pack to compete with anyone's, this year I don't think so. To win the competition this year we'll have to throw the ball around, and also probably do it in the road. If we can escape this pool we have a shot but definitely we aren't amongst the favourites this season and the odds reflect that.

#SUFTCAB

Yeah I guess that's the reality of the situation but I do hope they can maintain the level they have reached this season without that anchor that is Afoa. Does anyone know if he will be available for selection this week or is he still under the thumb?

If we can escape this group I think it will be a massive achievement in itself, anything beyond that will be bonus material.

rodders wrote:Watching Williams collide with Gorgodze will be worth tuning in for alone!  

Rodders - Gorgodze is still recovering from a torn calf as I understand it and is not going to feature, so you may need to wait until the return leg to see that collision. Their back row will be Bias, Tulou and Ouedraogo which is still fairly amazeballs, however.
 
The key thing will be stopping Pelissié and Trinh-Duc, however, the form hinge in the Top 14 at the moment. I watched highlights of Pelly's 43-3 wedgie of Clermont in September where each of those two bagged a brace and it was amazing.

yeah Gorgodze just getting back, he was a bit of a liability this weekend as well.
Think Alex Tulou will also miss that game, also injured. not sure about Bias.
on the other hand 21 years old Galletier had a good game in the backrow (he picked MOTM I think).

Throwing Afoa straight in is probably wrong. He has to be treated like everyone else and earn his place- plus he hasn't played any rugby since May, so unlikely to be fully fit. Afoa on the bench for me.

If Muller is ruled out I'd go for;

Court, Best, Fitzpatrick, Henderson, Tuohy, Wilson, Henry, Williams, Pienaar, Jackson, Bowe, Marshall, Cave, Trimble. Payne

I think we're going to be looking for Pelissies head on a plate- easier said than done. But their game revolves around him to a large extent so Wilson and Henry will be after him, hopefully they can stay on the right side of the ref while they're doing it.

Any news on Gilroy? Agree with Notch on Afoa, would stick with Fitzpatrick. Would be inclined to start Marshall and keep Ruan on the bench too.

Muller would be a big loss, he had his best game in a long time last weekend.

Gilroy will probably be available - instead of Allen on the bench would be my guess.

I expect Pienaer to start
No Muller means Henderson in the 2nd row.
Afoa is a close call - I would expect him and Fitzpatrick to both play a big part but not sure who will start

Olding added a bit of x-factor last week and would love to see him line out beside Marshall in the centre at some stage.

I agree Notch, I should have said that I would want him on the bench.

Pienaar should start IMO and have Marshall coming on as a supersub. It always seemed to work in the past.

If Gilroy is fit I'd like him starting at 15 with Olding and Payne in the centre as I think those two together would make for a cracking pairing. I think however Payne will retain the 15 shirt and Cavey will be wearing the 13. That being the case then Marshall would have to start at 12 of course.
We have so many choices and combinations these days it makes my poor addled brain buzz.

This is all about tactical kicking and defence. We need Paynes boot at 15, Marshalls bulk and boot at 12 and Caves organisation at 13. Not saying we won't try and play rugby too, but the likes of Gilroy and Olding will be seen off the bench if the game opens up in the last quarter.

Those two will probably start against Cardiff on the 25th, a completely different kind of game.

If the backs on the bench are anything other than Marshall, Olding, Gilroy I'll be amazed

geoff999rugby wrote:If the backs on the bench are anything other than Marshall, Olding, Gilroy I'll be amazed

Some bench though. As the season progresses I would like to see (if possible)

Pienaar, Jackson, Bowe, Marshall, Payne, Trimble, Gilroy, but I agree it would be a brave call for that to be seen this weekend

Brave and foolish.

Anyway, according to this article the only change is likely to be Pienaar to 9, and maybe Afoa onto the bench.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/pienaar-ulster-are-turning-into-a-european-force-29663767.html

Standulstermen wrote:
Pienaar, Jackson, Bowe, Marshall, Payne, Trimble, Gilroy, but I agree it would be a brave call for that to be seen this weekend

Definitely that's our strongest backline but Gilroy needs to be fully fit for this to work. I actually wouldn't have Cave in the 23 on current form.

Don't know about that rodders. I think cave has done rightly, my liking for that backline is purely because it is more creative. You have two good strike runners on the wings and a stepper at 15. Couple that with creativity at 9,10 and 13 and a bloody strong lump that can pass and tackle at 12 and there is balance.

I can't recall who said it but surely we will see Gilroy and olding start against cardiff

George Carlin wrote:

rodders wrote:Watching Williams collide with Gorgodze will be worth tuning in for alone!  

Rodders - Gorgodze is still recovering from a torn calf as I understand it and is not going to feature, so you may need to wait until the return leg to see that collision. Their back row will be Bias, Tulou and Ouedraogo which is still fairly amazeballs, however.
 
The key thing will be stopping Pelissié and Trinh-Duc, however, the form hinge in the Top 14 at the moment. I watched highlights of Pelly's 43-3 wedgie of Clermont in September where each of those two bagged a brace and it was amazing.

http://www.rugbydump.com/2013/09/3412/jonathan-pelissie-stars-as-montpellier-thrash-clermont-in-round-7-

rodders wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:
Pienaar, Jackson, Bowe, Marshall, Payne, Trimble, Gilroy, but I agree it would be a brave call for that to be seen this weekend

Definitely that's our strongest backline but Gilroy needs to be fully fit for this to work. I actually wouldn't have Cave in the 23 on current form.

This is an away game where we need our best tactical kicking fullback and our best defensive 13. It's not the same team I'd pick for a game at Ravenhill.

Standulstermen wrote:Don't know about that rodders. I think cave has done rightly, my liking for that backline is purely because it is more creative.

Gilroy has all the skills to play at the back and if he can master the 15 position then we can play our 4 best strike runners and finishers at the same time. All he needs is experience to judge when to counterattack or not - his positional play is already excellent.

Cave is a classy footballer but you need pace and physicality at this level and unfortunately he doesn't have enough of it. The other 3 (Olding, Payne, Marshall) just offer that bit more at this stage and Cave needs to find another level to hold on to a regular starting spot in my opinion.

Notch wrote:
This is an away game

I am aware that it is indeed an away game.

Notch wrote:
we need our best tactical kicking fullback and our best defensive 13. It's not the same team I'd pick for a game at Ravenhill.

Fair point but I could counter argue that as this is an away game and we don't have a clear edge in the scrum or set piece, we won't in all likelihood get the bulk of the penalty decisions, therefore we will need to score tries to win, rather than play the percentages.

Thus it is perfectly logical to suggest that we should play our best try scorers and strike runners and try to get Payne on the ball as much as possible. At Ravenhill with the crowd behind us playing a territorial, percentage game may be more likely to bear fruit than away in France where we need to keep the ball and stay in front on the score board.

We had >70% of possession against the tigers in the second half but still could have lost the game, in part due to poor handling and execution in the backline in the tigers half when we had created chances.

Payne at 13 gives us that organisation and attacking focal point in midfield that Cave doesn't.  

The tactical kicking that was extremely effective against the Tigers was in part so effective due to the poor positional play by the tigers back 3. Kicking the ball away is not, in my opinion, going to win us this game and we are not likely to get anywhere near as much joy from the Garryowen here. With Muller out challenging the opposition lineout won't work as well either.

I do agree that we will need to defend well but I don't see what evidence there is to suggest that Cave is a superior defender to Payne?

I'm with Rodders on this one. The percentages game has it's merits, there's no doubt in that but I would go for the same ploy at Rodders. I don't think we'll get as much chance at the tactical, chess playing that we had against the Tigers. Floods positional kicking handed the likes of Payne and Jackson the chance to pin them back. Our positional play was much better than theirs. It's going to be more of a ball in hand game against Montpelier IMO. We'll need our strike runners and most effective defence.

Is Muller actually out? Was it written somewhere that he may well be fit?

On another note there will be a nice reunion with Jim Nagusa, hopefully not a try scoring one for him mind you

Just in terms of organisation, Cave is excellent. Muller looks set to play.

I'm not saying we kick the ball away every phase but we will need to play some territory as you do in any tight game. We will need our best tactical kickers at 9, 10 and 15 to guide us through the game. Just because we'll need to put boot to ball sometimes doesn't mean we'll play a one-dimensional gameplan. We're just not equipped to run everything back at them all the time. We'll get into the right areas of the pitch and then unleash the backs. Gilroy is fairly raw as a fullback, we'll get him up to speed with that position in the Pro12. Payne could play either position to a high level in this game but we need his composure at the back.

Honestly don't see what there is to argue about, in terms of 13 and 15 its fairly obvious what the best selection is for this game.

"Honestly don't see what there is to argue about, in terms of 13 and 15 its fairly obvious what the best selection is for this game.."

Well it's all about what kind of game we think Anscombe will want us to play and it seems opinion is divided. I do think he will go for your option Notch but would just rather he went for Rodders one.

Pete330v2 wrote:"Honestly don't see what there is to argue about, in terms of 13 and 15 its fairly obvious what the best selection is for this game.."

Well it's all about what kind of game we think Anscombe will want us to play and it seems opinion is divided. I do think he will go for your option Notch but would just rather he went for Rodders one.

You're looking at like either we play a running game or a kicking game. Thats a massive over-simplification. We'll play a smart game. i.e we'll not just kick everything and we'll not just run everything. Payne at 15 can play any kind of game. Cave at 13 is solid in every aspect of the game.

Also, in a game like this, I think 15 is likely to have more touches of the ball and thats where I'd prefer to see our best back.

I dearly hope we do play a smart game. I know it would never be as simple as either running or kicking and will of course be a constantly changing variation of both but I get the feeling our chances to play a tactical, kicking game will be fewer and further between than they were last week. Hence my belief that there will be more importance placed on the running game and what we have to offer there.
As I said I do believe Payne will be at 15 and Cave at 13. I would love to see a shift of Payne to 13 and Olding coming on at 12 with Gilroy coming into the 15 slot as the game progresses to mix things up if needs be. Boy we do have some talent on the squad though.

Notch wrote:
Honestly don't see what there is to argue about, in terms of 13 and 15 its fairly obvious what the best selection is for this game.

There is no argument - it is an expression of subjective opinions based on conjecture and speculation.

It is fairly obvious to you who the best 13 and 15 are based on your opinion of the game and players involved, just as it is fairly obvious to me based on mine.

I do believe for sure that Anscombe will go with Payne at the back but that is in part down to Gilroy's lack of fitness. I think it is fairly obvious what both Anscombe and the IRFU prefer but this will only become apparent in the longer term.

It's a no brainer given the fitness issues and the lack of gametime together which the squad has had. I expect we will see olding and Gilroy start against Cardiff. By the time we meet Montpellier at ravenhill things may be different though

What we can all agree is that we have options - it's nice to be in a position to debate leaving out players of the calibre of Gilroy or Cave.

Lets not forget Paddy Wallace to return at some point too.

I guess it just comes down to what position is more important on Saturday. Jared Payne is a brilliant player, as good as Gilroy is he's better at every aspect of fullback play right now. Gilroy is very much a converted winger. Payne is also a better 13 than Cave.

We're going to need a top class fullback in this one.

I'm going to be stuck in Belfast on Saturday. Wife wants to shop! I've been granted time to go watch the match somewhere. But is there anywhere in city center that should be showing it? Or might I have to venture further?

Payne will be 15, Cave will be 13

Gilroy, at best, will be on the bench

clivemcl wrote:I'm going to be stuck in Belfast on Saturday. Wife wants to shop! I've been granted time to go watch the match somewhere. But is there anywhere in city center that should be showing it? Or might I have to venture further?

You will have no problem at all finding places in the city centre showing it.

clivemcl wrote:I'm going to be stuck in Belfast on Saturday. Wife wants to shop! I've been granted time to go watch the match somewhere. But is there anywhere in city center that should be showing it? Or might I have to venture further?

StandUlsterman will be showing it down in the fly I'd imagine...

Reading that we are giving away on average 7kg a man in the pack..... the tight 5 will be in for a tough day at the office in this one so I hope Muller and Afoa are fully match fit.

Will indeed be showing it but we aren't necessarily city centre. It's about a ten minute walk to us just off botanic avenue. To be honest I'm not sure how many bars will be showing it as United are playing and a lot have the foreign sky to get that.

If you are looking for a definite though Clive I will certainly have it shown. Just gandering at Uafc for some gossip. A guy on there who is usually spot on insists there is big news regarding a signing or re-signing. Very vague.

Also suggestions that Williams is out with Hendo replacing him at 6 and Wilson to 8

Pavilion - Ormeau Rd and Bot will show it I am sure

That rumour will be a resigning not a new boy

geoff999rugby wrote:Pavilion - Ormeau Rd and Bot will show it I am sure

That rumour will be a resigning not a new boy

I'm pretty sure it isn't Afoa. Wouldn't make sense unless he's getting divorced!

It's Payne then I imagine?

Payne is already contracted until 2016. Think maybe an extended year for Muller with a view to coaching perhaps.

Munchkin wrote:Payne is already contracted until 2016. Think maybe an extended year for Muller with a view to coaching perhaps.

Great news if true.

I heard rumours somewhere else about Afoa but that one makes no sense given his personal circumstances and desire to play in the next RWC. That would be a huge U-turn.

Is there no chance its just some of our IQs extending their contracts? Or... (surely not), they've decided Ferris is showing enough promise to have his contract extended for the full season?

Muller staying on would be great though.

I would love to hear some good news about 1F for a change. The guy must be gagging to get on the pitch and run over a few people. If it's a Muller extension it would definately be good news, the guy brings much more to the squad than his physical presence.

I won't be Afoa as much as I would love it to be.

Anscombe or Ferris?

I find it hard to believe Ferris would get an extension before he proves himself on the field? Didn't he say last week that he was hoping to be back in December?

Fingers crossed because he's a different class of player but I feel pretty pessimistic about his chances. No news has tended to be bad news with him and things have been very quiet....

rodders wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Payne is already contracted until 2016. Think maybe an extended year for Muller with a view to coaching perhaps.

Great news if true.

I heard rumours somewhere else about Afoa but that one makes no sense given his personal circumstances and desire to play in the next RWC. That would be a huge U-turn.

Yes, it would be excellent news. Muller is happy at Ulster, and close to Pienaar who has just signed a 3 year contract. Can't see it being Afoa myself unless Ulster Rugby are willing to allow him to shunt back and forth to NZ. Not the best scenario.