Schumacher vs Vettel

Love or hate him Schumacher achieved some great things during his F1 career. He dominated the sport for a long time and when he won seven titles I thought that his record would stand for decades. However Vettel is now about to win his 4th title and beating Schumacher's seven doesn't seem that far fetched now. I've started to rate Vettel more now- I know he has the best car but he has made it reach its race winning potential each time he is in it. Schumacher won titles in the Benneton which was probably not the best car and turned ferrari's fortunes around too so I still think his achievements are more impressive then vettels. However if the two were team mates in the same team who do you think would come out in top?

Schumacher - he would have sold his firstborn to win a title - vettel wouldn't stand a chance.

As ever with these debates you are talking two completely different eras with different equipment and rules. In the late 90s/00s then I'd go with Shumi all the way BUT modern F1 is all about tyre management and this may favour Vettel who is good at it. Interestingly enough Shumis parting shot was that it was no longer about driving a car fast and slated the tyres - and for once I was in total agreement.

The older drivers have found it harder to adapt to the tyre wear (with some exceptions) - Schumi, Webber, Rubens, etc.

On the initial question though,I'd argue Schumacher played a massive part in making that Ferrari so good whereas Newey has made this RB with Vettel fitting perfectly into it.

Schumacher, Vettel has a career to have before we can even look at this.

Funny question though, you'll have a couple of posters in pain having to endorse one of these.

Schumacher beat Vettel at Race of Champions. Same car, no team orders, no Horner, no Newy, no vastly superior car and the end result = NO FINGER!  

For all the Schmacher hate there has been on here, I think most of us would put him somewhere in the list of top 5 drivers ever (Senna, Fangio, Clark and Stewart for me would be the others, Prost and Lauda just a bit behind) based on what he could actually do in a car. Winning two titles for Benetton when their car was markedly slower than the Williams (although more reliable and probably easier to drive near its limits) and then being the catalyst for the revival of Ferrari are both very significant achievements., and his career stats are other-worldly OK, so the comeback turned out to not be that successful, but should not detract from how good Schumi was between the mid 90s and mid 00s.

Vettel has some way to go yet to make it into such illustrious company, for example winning a Championship in a car that hasn't been sprinkled with Newey's magic. I'm not saying it is necessarily beyond him, and it may be that in 15 years time when we look back on Vettel's career, we'll see that race win for Torro Rosso at Monza as the same sort of evidence of genius in the making as we currently view Senna's Monaco 2nd place in the Toleman or Schumi's 2nd place in Spain in a car jammed in 5th gear. I think though winning 4 championships in what is clearly the best car and against a teammate only rated as a moderate driver does not unequivocally prove greatness, it merely hints at it (so far).

All Vettel has proved so far in F1 where the out right fastest driver always will not always win, is prove that he is the most economical driver on the grid. He can manage his fuel, tyres, gear box, engine etc etc superbly.

Lets change the situation to before the rule changes where drivers could race more than 90% of a lap without fear that their tyres were going to break up. Lets have drivers racing 70 laps a race at proper race pace not worrying that the car has been underfuelled.

Schumacher did it at a time when F1 was arguably at it speed peak. Schumacher therefore is in a top 3 with Senna and Fangio for company. Vettel is more of a Proffessor Prost.

Nowadays watching F1 is like watching the episode of top gear when the lads are trying to get from France to Blackpool on a tank of fuel. It was funny that one time, but do you would rather see them racing each other on a track than driving economically.

Well, if we either made Schumacher Vettel's age and approaching the peak of his career, or sent Vettel back in time so he could partner Schuey at Benetton and Ferrari, (cancelling out the equipment/reg differences) I think it'd likely end in a score draw.

They don't call Vettel "Baby Schumi" for nothing. I think ability-wise and mentality-wise there is very little to choose between them.

Schumacher always prefered to control races from the front and was pretty well unbeatable when he did so. From that point of view, his influence on Vettel is there for all to see...another thinking driver, who works through race strategies with his team beforehand and then attempts to execute them as perfectly as possible.

Both are/were equally ruthless and would not hesitate to take another driver off the track, if it would gain them any advantage.

So, in summary, I think you'd find it hard to slide a gnat's whisker between them.

At the moment I'd go with Schumacher - world titles at a car not the fastest on the grid (Benneton) and influenced Ferrari on his arrival plus of course, for now, he has more world titles.

So would I, there is such a long way to go in Vettel's career, he will still be racing in a decade I would guess so it's hard to make a decent comparison. Schumacher had a remarkable career full of ups and downs ,Vettel has only really had ups so far, we will see how it goes when he has his downs.

I think Vettel would have a decent shot. Schumacher is hailed as some god, yet people overlook he benefited from a dominant car probably even more than Vettel did, with an equally unexceptional teammate who had stricter team orders than Webber has. Atleast Vettel has never had his teammate forced to pull over in the final metres to give him a victory, one of the all time farces in the sport.

Yeah Schumacher on the title twice with Benetton which is impressive. I would still bet if Vettel were facing a clearly inferior driver like Damon Hill he could do something similar though. Schumacher also benfited from Senna's untimely death, and likely would have never won a F1 title with anything other than Ferrari otherwise.

Schmacher while IMO still in his prime was beaten for the Drivers title twice in a row by Alonso in what I believe was an overall inferior car considering the whole year. So I dont think Schumacher is some god or someone Vettel could not be competitive with.

alonsofan30 wrote:I think Vettel would have a decent shot.  Schumacher is hailed as some god, yet people overlook he benefited from a dominant car probably even more than Vettel did, with an equally unexceptional teammate who had stricter team orders than Webber has.  Atleast Vettel has never had his teammate forced to pull over in the final metres to give him a victory, one of the all time farces in the sport.

Yeah Schumacher on the title twice with Benetton which is impressive.   I would still bet if Vettel were facing a clearly inferior driver like Damon Hill he could do something similar though.   Schumacher also benfited from Senna's untimely death, and likely would have never won a F1 title with anything other than Ferrari otherwise.

Schmacher while IMO still in his prime was beaten for the Drivers title twice in a row by Alonso in what I believe was an overall inferior car considering the whole year.  So I dont think Schumacher is some god or someone Vettel could not be competitive with.

I think Barrichello was told to give way much earlier, but he deliberately left it until the last possible minute, in protest at being forced to give up a race win, knowing it would expose Ferrari's use of team orders.

Schumacher, easy. Ok you dont win four titles with out being a great driver But the bottom line is his car has been heads and tails better than any other and I have not seen Vettel really prove he can mix it with the best when the car is not so great, like Alonso has often done and Lewis does..

While Vettel has done well, I cant help but think the incompetence from the other teams in challenging Redbull over the last few years has contributed to Vettels success.. If Alonso won the title in 2011 which he very nearly done, Vettel would not have looked good at all being in a much much faster car.

Again are people actually blind to how much Schumacher's car favored him the vast majority of his career as well.  Anyone who followed Formula 1 at the time knows the Ferrari of Schumacher was even more dominant over the field most of those years he won Championships with Ferrari as Red Bull is today.   It also did not have the reliability issues that Red Bull has often had.

The people who talk about his 2 titles at Benetton speak as if it is some heroic feat that Vettel could only dream of doing.   This is far from the case.   It is nowhere near as impressive as Alonso's 2 titles at Renault (beating the great Schumacher himself in a much faster car I would add) so if that is the logic we are using to compare Vettel to Schumacher, especialy when Vettel inevitably passes Schumacher's drivers championships down the road; then we might as well say Alonso is a better driver than Schumacher by that logic.    In 1994 there was no dominant car and Benetton was easily one of the best, if not the best, and the one arguably stronger car had no formidable driver at all.   He beat the great Damon Hill by a mere 1 point, and had to use some dirty trickery in the last race to achieve this (which he attempted again vs Villeneuve several years later and backfired).   Senna would have cleaned up this year anyway.    It would probably be the equivalent, in a harsh comparision for Vettel today, of Vettel in a McLaren (last year) or Mercedes (this year) beating say Mark Weber or Felipe Massa in a Red Bull.   Very easy to see happening IMO.

In 1995 Benetton was even more than 1994 probably the best car that year, and again only Williams was even close, and every other car very far behind.   Again his main competitor was the grand Damon Hill, oh wow.  

Had Senna not had his tragedy, we likely would be saying Schumacher can only win a F1 title with Ferrari the same way we for now say Vettel only has in Red Bull.

When Schumacher didnt have the fastest car he generally did not win either.  He couldnt beat Mika Hakkinen in a faster McLaren or even Jacques Villeneuve in a faster Williams.   The same Jacques Villeneuve who was deemed too weak a driver to even stay in F1 TWICE in the coming years, both times dumped by bottom feeding teams.

I would also say Vettel's car was no more superior to Alonso in 2011 and 2012 as Schumacher's Ferrari was to Renault the 2 years he lost to drivers championship to a  much younger Alonso for what it is worth.

I am not saying those saying Schumacher is better at this point, especialy while he has  more winnings are wrong.  I am  just pointing out many of the things critics say about Vettel apply to Schumacher as well, and no his 2 titles at Benetton were not something awe inspiring or getting so much out of a car nowhere near the best and still beating some formidable foe.   Alonso is the only driver in the last 20 years who has done that, not Schumacher.