Zinzan Brooke, David Campese and Richard Hill discuss the build-up to the QBE Internationals

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By Mick Cleary for The Telegraph 29 Oct 2013



If the World Cup were to start next week who would win?

Zinzan Brooke New Zealand.

Richard Hill New Zealand.

And what about in two years’ time?

RH New Zealand.

DC One of the top five sides.

Come on Campo, not like you not to nail your colours to the mast.

DC You asked me a question and I’m giving my honest answer. Let me see – South Africa.

ZB New Zealand.

DC Of course he is going to say that.

ZB Why would you not?

DC Because of their history at World Cups.

ZB Yeah, well, even so.

DC You can’t ignore it. And no team has won back-to-back World Cups.

You are that confident of the All Blacks still being that dominant in two years’ time?

ZB Yes, I am. You just look at the way they have played this year, the mix of players coming through, it’s exceptional.

You don’t see it that way, Campo?

DC I actually thought that the Blacks would struggle this year because of the older player problem, like Ma’a Nonu, Richie McCaw, but they have all stood up and are bloody good again. They have got so many good players they can slot in.

If McCaw gets injured, they have got Sam Cane, you’ve not lost anything. Same with Dan Carter. See how Beauden Barrett came through. They have got that confidence, they have got that structure.

I suppose England have got home advantage but it depends what they want to do with how they play. Australia, well it’s probably a year too early. But when it comes to the big games, the big moments, the Aussies are always dangerous.

ZB The best team doesn’t necessarily win the Rugby World Cup. We’ve seen that time and again.

RH Oh, cheers mate.

So, do England have a decent chance in two years’ time?

RH Of course. Look at how far they’ve come since the 2011 World Cup in New Zealand. There has been a dramatic turnaround. Stuart Lancaster has come in, done a good job, changed the environment, changed the culture, and changed selection.

And the QBE Internationals will show us that?

RH Exactly. We will see where they are. Some of that change has been structured, some of it enforced. It’s a great chance to see how the likes of Billy Twelvetrees and Joel Tomkins go.

DC Where is the X-factor? Who is going to give England that?

RH This is the opportunity to find out.

How important then in the context of the 2015 Rugby World Cup are the QBE Internationals? It’s so important for England to lay down a marker, isn’t it, especially against Australia who are in their World Cup pool [as are Wales]?

ZB Hell, up to last week I was thinking that Australia were a bit lame. There wasn’t much strength there, not much sign of a game plan. I thought they would have no chance here. But just on how they played against the All Blacks in Dunedin, I’ve changed my view of them.

DC What has happened with Australia is that there is some respect back in there. I agree with Zinny. On the back of that performance, I would make Australia favourites going in against England on Saturday.

This is England, at Twickenham, against an Australian side that has won only three of its last 10. How can you say that?

DC Australia have been together for ages, played Test after Test, come through a Lions series, then a Rugby Championship. Australia arrive with a bit of momentum.

ZB I’d go with that, too. I don’t want to come over all New Zealandish but look at what happened three weeks ago, what New Zealand did to South Africa in Johannesburg, that was as good as I’ve ever seen. Last week was right up there as well.

Those are the standards you are measuring against. Australia are in good shape. What have the England players had? A couple of weeks of Heineken Cup. Fair enough. Not a bad level. But it’s not Test rugby. You might think England the front-runners but you write off Australia at your peril.

Yes, but England have got to make a statement at their principal World Cup venue?

RH What about fatigue? Australia have played and played and played.

DC Australia have copped so much crap back at home they’ve got to keep going. The supporters have deserted them because they have not been respectful to the jersey.

ZB Campo, what is the most difficult game on tour? Easy. It is the last one. Not the first one, right?

DC That showed last year. New Zealand just wanted to go home.

Come on, you’re not pulling that one. England trounced them fair and square.

ZB That is not the point I was making. I was just saying that Australia will not lack for motivation. This is the start for them, not the end. The Aussies will have all the motivation in the world coming to Twickenham. They will want to put one over on England.

DC The thing is that [Wallaby coach] Ewen McKenzie knows what this game means. He knows what it means to beat England.

Who are the players that have got to come through for England. They’ve had good moments.

DC Excuse me, they’ve had a good moment. Singular. Moment. They beat New Zealand.

Well, there has been a bit more than that.

DC No, after beating the All Blacks like that, they should have gone on and killed everyone in the Six Nations. They didn’t build on it.

ZB What happened in that Wales game?

RH The scrum did not provide the platform it ought to have done. And Wales did handle the emotion of the day far better.

ZB Why? Why? Serious questions.

It is all about attitude, was that England’s failing?

DC Not entirely. I don’t think England know what their best combinations are yet. Does the back-row work well together, and then through that to the half-backs. In big games, that’s what you need. In the days when you had a Jonny Wilkinson and a Jeremy Guscott, you’d say, hell, two dangerous players there.

But when you look at England now, you’ve got a No 10 who doesn’t attack the line so that is easy. So that’s your defence sorted out. You need the opposition to put pressure on you.

Zinny, you know the English scene well. Are there good young players here? How can New Zealand keep producing while England seem to struggle?

DC Because New Zealanders get one crack at it. If you stuff it up you never play again.

ZB True. They don’t.

RH Hang on again, there are players coming through. Marland Yarde. Christian Wade, there’s two. Yarde is a player who excites me. He’s got good physicality but he also has feet and a turn of speed. He’s got real prospects.

ZB OK, Hilly, give me your England spine, right now. 2, 7, 8, 9, 10, 15.

RH Well...

ZB You should not have to hesitate. That’s a sign in itself. Your 2003 team had a spine that everyone knew you, Lawrence, Dawson...

RH OK, Tom Youngs at hooker, Chris Robshaw at 7.

ZB OK, up against McCaw or Cane. Give me No 8, Kieran Read it is for NZ.

RH Billy Vunipola has been better of the two No 8s in the Premiership [Ben Morgan the other], Ben Youngs and Owen Farrell, then looking like Mike Brown at full-back.

ZB Agreed on Brown, but to be fair you’ve had a bit of hesitation coming up with that.

Do I sense that you two southerners are not too bullish about England’s chances?

DC Why should we be?

ZB Agreed.

What will it take for that to change? England to win all three games?

DC They have to win, but win with authority.

ZB Can’t just grind it out.

RH I’d say if they win the first two and put in a decent performance in the third that will be acceptable.

DC Isn’t that revealing? ‘Put a good performance in...’ We’d be saying, we’ve got to win every game.

That was a wounding defeat [38-21] for the All Blacks last year against England wasn’t it Zinny?

ZB It was mate, it was. But watch the revenge.

DC Yeah, bring that on, it’s going to be a big one.

ZB I can tell you what it was like in 1993 when he lost 15-9 at Twickenham. That was a knife between the shoulder blades. The post-match function that night. Mate, we hated that function. The wound was already deep. For the next 18 months we were burning inside.

We just could not wait until the next time we played England. When it came, the 1995 World Cup semi-final in Cape Town, there was not a word said in the changing rooms beforehand, not a word. We just put the England jersey up there. The scoreline. 15-9. It all came flooding back. That was the motivation.

So last year won’t be written off as an aberration, illness in the camp and all that, end of a long year?

ZB None of the guys used the illness excuse. There is no doubt that the mission will be to beat England.

How are Australia looking, Campo? What are you going to do now that Robbie Deans has gone as coach? Nothing to complain about.

DC Thank God for that. Deans was a Kiwi. He knew nothing about the history. You have to connect with the jersey. That’s what [Wallaby coach] Ewen McKenzie is trying to do, make the boys understand what the jersey means. You can already see that it’s coming, that pride.

You’re optimistic then about Australian rugby?

DC I know Ewen, I’ve played with the guy, he knows what it all feels like.

RH It sounds exactly what Stuart Lancaster has done with England, engaging with England’s roots and you can see the effect it has had.

There has been a lot of strife in Australian rugby, eh, pay cuts, off-field issues with alcohol, Kurtley Beale, Quade Cooper, James O’Connor. I could go on Campo.

DC There is a lot of strife, I agree, and there is because they’ve allowed it to happen. Deans never really got to grips with it.

So this is a really important point for Australian rugby?

DC Yes, this is it. McKenzie has tried to address it. James O’Connor is not involved. He has been chucked out. He’s a great player but enough is enough.

Two years out from a World Cup... that’s quite an important mark isn’t it?

DC Yeah, in a way, but you can’t win a World Cup in two years. You need four. We haven’t got guys coming through in Australia. It is the same player base as it was with Robbie Deans and that is our problem.

ZB You need a core. The All Blacks have depth. Look at [fly-half] Beauden Barrett. It’s not all about Dan Carter. Barrett has been brilliant. New Zealand are well placed in terms of their player base.

Who should we look out for over the next few weeks? Who is the player you will be keeping an eye on? A Kiwi, Zinzan?

ZB No, I want to watch Marland Yarde, see what he is made of.

DC The backup No 10 for Australia, Bernard Foley.

RH If Yarde performs well, it means something has gone right up front. This could be the time for Courtney Lawes but I will be fascinated to see if England get the No 8 sorted, be it Billy Vunipola or Ben Morgan.

It would be remiss not to mention Argentina.

ZB I am more excited about Argentina than I am about the other two. Their evolution is so important. They were excluded for too long. It was a bit like Italy joining the Six Nations. It took too long. We have to support Argentina.

David Campese, Zinzan Brooke and Richard Hill were speaking on behalf of QBE, the business insurance specialist, ahead of the QBE Internationals – www.QBErugby.com

maestegmafia wrote:Campese is one of the best wingers to have ever played the game. It's amazing how quickly talent is forgotten because a few words in the press don't align with someone's personal opinion

Zinzan Brooke was probably the greatest all round skilled player to ever wear the number eight shirt.

Yup - but campese wouldn't get a game in some countries 15 became he is a maverick who will play his way only

I think people here who think campo was not a first name on any team sheet type of player can't have seen him play.... He was the best player in the world second to none for years.
He messed up once or twice but play 100 tests and you will at some point come a cropper most notable when you play on the margins.

Zinzan... Please don't go on about that kick.  Matt dunning scored a better one for the tahs a while back... Says it all. I once saw the ABs train and zinzan was practising his drop kicks... He couldn't hit a barn door that day and they didn't get more then 5m off the ground... The chap next to me said as we watched..."son, every dog has his day".

Top class eightman, but please can people stop talking about that kick like it was delivered by god himself.