Rugby World Cup 2003, England-Aus, the greatest.........

by doctor_grey Fri 01 Nov 2013, 3:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

The greatest player of all time,
making the greatest play of all time,
on the greatest team of all time,
in the greatest event of all time,
in the greatest sport of all time.

where were you when the match or just the kick happened?

by nathan Sat 02 Nov 2013, 11:09 am

just watching the game now, it's pretty funny watching jason lennard running around.

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Sat 02 Nov 2013, 5:45 pm

I remember it more as a fluke, we saw a team lucky to beat Samoa in the group stages,struggle against the Welsh in the quarter final until the ref helped them out in the second half,a semi final when the French shot themselves in the foot, then go onto win it with one kick.

Hardly entertaining and hardly world beaters.

by BamBam Sat 02 Nov 2013, 5:46 pm

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:I remember it more as a fluke, we saw a team lucky to beat Samoa in the group stages,struggle against the Welsh in the quarter final until the ref helped them out in the second half,a semi final when the French shot themselves in the foot, then go onto win it with one kick.

Hardly entertaining and hardly world beaters.

Diddums

by TJ Sat 02 Nov 2013, 5:51 pm

Errmmm - nothing great at all about it. did you watch the last all blacks / Aus game?

does anyone wonder why english sports fans get up others noses? this thread is a perfect example of why

by No 7&1/2 Sat 02 Nov 2013, 6:21 pm

We can't do anything about it if there's a few other fans very very very bitter can we TJ?

by fa0019 Sat 02 Nov 2013, 6:48 pm

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:I remember it more as a fluke, we saw a team lucky to beat Samoa in the group stages,struggle against the Welsh in the quarter final until the ref helped them out in the second half,a semi final when the French shot themselves in the foot, then go onto win it with one kick.

Hardly entertaining and hardly world beaters.

Fluke as in being unbeaten vs the 3N in 3 years and 12 matches home and away vs all up to and incl the RWC?

Fluke as in winning 3 out of the last 4 6N championships?

In 91, AUS were lucky to beat IRE in the QF.
In 95, SA were lucky to beat FRA in the SF.
In 07, SA were lucky to beat Fiji and not have to play NZ, AUS or FRA in the tournament.
In 11, NZ were lucky Joubert wears an ABs nightie to sleep each night.

Every team needs luck. England had some in 03, they made their own most of the time and that is generally the way things go in these tournaments.

by TJ Sat 02 Nov 2013, 6:48 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:We can't do anything about it if there's a few other fans very very very bitter can we TJ?

A little humility wouldn't go amis and your post is also indicative of why english fans are disliked.

by TJ Sat 02 Nov 2013, 6:50 pm

Oh it was a good win using the players they had and a gameplan to suit. No WC win is anything less than great. However great game? Great play?? No. Not even close. Dull limited game plan excecuted well.

by doctor_grey Sat 02 Nov 2013, 6:54 pm

doctor_grey wrote:The greatest player of all time,
making the greatest play of all time,
on the greatest team of all time,
in the greatest event of all time,
in the greatest sport of all time.

by TJ Sat 02 Nov 2013, 7:02 pm

Well and you wonder whay "anyone but england"

Or if that is supposed to be a series of questions..........
The greatest player of all time, Dan Carter or Zinzan Brooke

making the greatest play of all time, I like a trick play. NZ a couple of WCs ago having all the backs in a line behind the scrum but just maybe Wales 15 man lineout and maul - because of the game situation

on the greatest team of all time, GB cycling team at the olympics

in the greatest event of all time, Strathpuffer. Google it. an event for tough folk run and competed in in a very sporting manner

in the greatest sport of all time rugby union. Has to be

by fa0019 Sat 02 Nov 2013, 7:04 pm

TJ wrote:Oh it was a good win using the players they had and a gameplan to suit. No WC win is anything less than great. However great game? Great play?? No. Not even close. Dull limited game plan excecuted well.

Could yon tell me a more exciting final where two sides threw the kitchen sink at each other back and forth???

Any team can perform when the pressure is off, those 2 teams that day made the best final in RWC history then or since because they went at each other and gave the fans a real test match full of drama, tries, excitement and a final scene any Hollywood scriptwriter would be proud of.

Finals are never great games in the purest sense...that one was closest as we've had though.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 02 Nov 2013, 7:24 pm

TJ wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:We can't do anything about it if there's a few other fans very very very bitter can we TJ?
A little humility wouldn't go amis and your post is also indicative of why english fans are disliked.

It's true. I represent all England fans. You have quite a cheek after reading some of your recent comments. You're bitter, what can I do?

by TJ Sat 02 Nov 2013, 7:25 pm

I am not bitter at all. Jeezo I am a scotland and edinburgh fan. Bitterness is a luxury to those like me

by Cyril Sat 02 Nov 2013, 7:28 pm

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:I remember it more as a fluke, we saw a team lucky to beat Samoa in the group stages,struggle against the Welsh in the quarter final until the ref helped them out in the second half,a semi final when the French shot themselves in the foot, then go onto win it with one kick.

Hardly entertaining and hardly world beaters.

I just had to chortle at that one Laugh

Good old view! Cool

Don't forget sneaking past SA by 19 points and being lucky that Georgia and Uruguay didn't bring their 'A Game'.

by TJ Sat 02 Nov 2013, 7:29 pm

fa0019 wrote:
TJ wrote:Oh it was a good win using the players they had and a gameplan to suit. No WC win is anything less than great. However great game? Great play?? No. Not even close. Dull limited game plan excecuted well.
Could yon tell me a more exciting final where two sides threw the kitchen sink at each other back and forth???

Any team can perform when the pressure is off, those 2 teams that day made the best final in RWC history then or since because they went at each other and gave the fans a real test match full of drama, tries, excitement and a final scene any Hollywood scriptwriter would be proud of.

Finals are never great games in the purest sense...that one was closest as we've had though.

Maybe but it was by no means a great game. One team playing territory and scrum and look for penalties, the other unable to break them down. Not great for the neutral. Have you watched the last NZ / Aus game? Now that was a great game

by Cyril Sat 02 Nov 2013, 7:32 pm

TJ wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
TJ wrote:Oh it was a good win using the players they had and a gameplan to suit. No WC win is anything less than great. However great game? Great play?? No. Not even close. Dull limited game plan excecuted well.
Could yon tell me a more exciting final where two sides threw the kitchen sink at each other back and forth???

Any team can perform when the pressure is off, those 2 teams that day made the best final in RWC history then or since because they went at each other and gave the fans a real test match full of drama, tries, excitement and a final scene any Hollywood scriptwriter would be proud of.

Finals are never great games in the purest sense...that one was closest as we've had though.
Maybe but it was by no means a great game. One team playing territory and scrum and look for penalties, the other unable to break them down. Not great for the neutral. Have you watched the last NZ / Aus game? Now that was a great game

You mean the one that meant sod all in the greater scheme of things and both sides could just throw it about? You can't compare that with a WC Final.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 02 Nov 2013, 7:42 pm

TJ wrote:I am not bitter at all. Jeezo I am a scotland and edinburgh fan. Bitterness is a luxury to those like me

Maybe I'm harsh but after reading endless posts of lucky England and putting them down etc I may have jumped to conclusions. One post back and I'm proving why people don't like the English. If the boot was on the other foot...it would be me proving why people don't like the English. Just gets tiresome sometimes.

by TJ Sat 02 Nov 2013, 7:46 pm

Just read the thread - its not that bad but its the continual drip drip drip of stuff like this that leads to the "anyone but England" mindset. read it again with a neutrals mindset adn seewhat you see

Oh - and i am of english birth with an english name and an english accent. I'd rather be a Sarries and England fan but you can't change whats in your heart

Oh - and not prooving - showing. Just ano0ther drip insiugnificant in itself but infuriating for the 459.908 time

by No 7&1/2 Sat 02 Nov 2013, 7:51 pm

I would say that if you read the thread on the game you would also see some posts that appear to offer no acknowledgment on what England managed to do. I'd also say there are quite a few fans around today who are very bitter about the England win and doing anything they can to play it down. Think the world will stop spinning if we do manage to get another win against NZ.

by quinsforever Sat 02 Nov 2013, 11:01 pm

i love the game of rugby, but at international level sometimes i wonder whether england should really bother. we are damned if we do damned if we dont. arrogant and boring for winning in a confident manner, just plain arrogant for failing to win as we obviously assumed we would in the other 6 RWCs.

seriously, why do we bother.

oh yeah, because without england half the finances of rugby would evaporate, so actually our ongoing participation is more charitable than arrogant....

by The Fourth Lion Sun 03 Nov 2013, 7:25 am

doctor_grey wrote:The greatest player of all time,
making the greatest play of all time,
on the greatest team of all time,
in the greatest event of all time,
in the greatest sport of all time.

where were you when the match or just the kick happened?

The Me'm Sahib and I watched the match in the Scruffs Bar of the Warrant Officers and Senior Rates Mess at the Navy establishment where I was based at the time. The bar was open, the place was packed and we even had a token Aussie who was over here on exchange service at the time. Give him his due, he took a damned good bantering like a man and rang the bell at full time. I dread to think what his bar bill looked like that month. Top bloke though. Kudos to him.

We especially enjoyed bantering the Chief Stoker in the Welsh Shirt and wearing a green and gold scarf. Served him right.

But what a great day, and even better to be in Trafalgar Square for the homecoming. A freezing cold day, and a long wait for the bus to arrive (nothing unusual in London), but worth it.

by The Fourth Lion Sun 03 Nov 2013, 7:31 am

TJ wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:We can't do anything about it if there's a few other fans very very very bitter can we TJ?
A little humility wouldn't go amis and your post is also indicative of why english fans are disliked.

See my post above.

TJ....... You weren't in the Scruffs Bar of the WO & SR mess, wearing a Welsh shirt and a green and gold scarf on that day by any chance, were you..?

by Guest Sun 03 Nov 2013, 8:20 am

The Fourth Lion wrote:
TJ wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:We can't do anything about it if there's a few other fans very very very bitter can we TJ?
A little humility wouldn't go amis and your post is also indicative of why english fans are disliked.

See my post above.

TJ....... You weren't in the Scruffs Bar of the WO & SR mess, wearing a Welsh shirt and a green and gold scarf on that day by any chance, were you..?

He's a Scottish fan, so I doubt it.

by The Fourth Lion Sun 03 Nov 2013, 9:06 am

Griff wrote:
The Fourth Lion wrote:
TJ wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:We can't do anything about it if there's a few other fans very very very bitter can we TJ?
A little humility wouldn't go amis and your post is also indicative of why english fans are disliked.

See my post above.

TJ....... You weren't in the Scruffs Bar of the WO & SR mess, wearing a Welsh shirt and a green and gold scarf on that day by any chance, were you..?

He's a Scottish fan, so I doubt it.

The shirt may differ but the mentality is just the same.

by TJ Sun 03 Nov 2013, 9:32 am

You guys are so funny. You wonder why the "anyone but england" mentality exists and then you make posts like on this thread with a huge disrespectful arrogance and a nasty denigration of others. Oh the irony. can you not see what you are doing?

by stub Sun 03 Nov 2013, 10:16 am

TJ - I think that you made your mind up a long time ago that the English are arrogant and "english fans are disliked." I think that this is real shame and unfortunately I doubt that there is anything anyone can do or say to change your mind. Most posts I read from all nationalities show great respect for others and plenty of humility. There are of course exceptions to this but again these are from all nationalities. I think your comments are unfair and disproportionately targeted at the English. I'm not going to let it spoil my day though. Off to watch my son play rugby now Smile

by TJ Sun 03 Nov 2013, 10:56 am

Stub - just read this thread and try to view it from a neutrals viewpoint to understand why english fans are perceived as arrogant.

by nathan Sun 03 Nov 2013, 11:05 am

TJ wrote:Stub - just read this thread and try to view it from a neutrals viewpoint to understand why english fans are perceived as arrogant.

Yes, every single english fan is on this thread.... You can't make generalising sweeping statements based on a few english fans on here. It's pretty clear as stub said you made your mind up a long time ago.

by LordDowlais Sun 03 Nov 2013, 11:33 am

England were lucky to get pass Wales in the quarter final of that world cup if I remember correctly, the ref just killed us in the second half, although at the time England were easily the best side from 1 to 8 in the world, add into the Johnny Wilkinson at 10 and they were a pretty formidable side, I do not think we will ever see a pack of forwards as good as the English 1999-2003 circa ever again.

by No 7&1/2 Sun 03 Nov 2013, 11:50 am

And I only had a pop after reading your one eyed posts on the match thread!

by TJ Sun 03 Nov 2013, 11:56 am

Nathan - I did not claim that at all. what I said was quite clear that if people want to understand why the "anyone but england" ethos is so active then this thread shows the sentiments that produce this reaction.

by The Fourth Lion Sun 03 Nov 2013, 1:12 pm

TJ wrote:Nathan - I did not claim that at all. what I said was quite clear that if people want to understand why the "anyone but england" ethos is so active then this thread shows the sentiments that produce this reaction.

What a pity that a good and interesting thread..... about England's 2003 world cup win.... has been hijacked by one individual who clearly has an axe to grind and turned into something it was never intended to be.

But I can see that there is an element of antipathy towards England..... in the mind of at least one person..... amongst the group on this site, so, what say you we start an "Anyone but England" thread where we can discuss this phenomenon. Much better that way, eh?

I'll cobble something together and put it up, and then those who feel a need to do so can vent their spleen in an appropriate place. I'll get typing.

by TJ Sun 03 Nov 2013, 5:23 pm

$th lion - you shoot yourself in the foot. its easy to write off my comments as bitter antipathy rather than listen and try to understand. Of course it was not intended to be this but to claim

The greatest player of all time,
making the greatest play of all time,
on the greatest team of all time,
in the greatest event of all time,
in the greatest sport of all time.

For the england WC win is simply arrogant. It was none of those things

Its much easier for you to close your ears and say its the rantings of a bitter individual than it is to listen to the explanation i give and to try to understand.

by Duty281 Sun 03 Nov 2013, 5:32 pm

TJ - It's something called an "opinion". People are allowed to have them.

With regards to arrogance, I remember seeing some Welsh fans on SSN before the RWC 2011 semi-final against France, crowing about how they were going to score five tries and get in the final.

Oops.

by TJ Sun 03 Nov 2013, 5:35 pm

The point is its not said as an opinion its said as if its a self evident fact- read it. try to understand why this sort of attitude annoys folk.

by Duty281 Sun 03 Nov 2013, 5:43 pm

And I've seen a couple of people on here (Welsh fans) citing the recent Lions victory as a Welsh victory. In light of that, do you believe I should adopt an "anyone but Wales" attitude?

And of course it's an opinion, just because he hasn't wrote "I think" or "I believe" beforehand doesn't make a difference.

by hugehandoff Sun 03 Nov 2013, 5:48 pm

Anyway.......I was in Balham and extremely annoyed that my wife had booked us to take kids and godchildren to see Disney on Ice straight after the game. I had to leave all my mates straight after the final whistleas they began a massive bender. furious

It was such a come down from the previous weekend when I was there as We beat France in the pouring rain. I had 3 nights in Sydney for the semi-finals and it was an epic weekend. What was especially nice was that as both semis were in the same location you had fans from every country in town and out partying. Some were delusional in actually thinking they would make the semis, but their presence was gratefully received by the Sydney bars and restuarants. And everyone got on well!

by Guest Sun 03 Nov 2013, 8:17 pm

Duty281 wrote:And I've seen a couple of people on here (Welsh fans) citing the recent Lions victory as a Welsh victory. In light of that, do you believe I should adopt an "anyone but Wales" attitude?

And of course it's an opinion, just because he hasn't wrote "I think" or "I believe" beforehand doesn't make a difference.

I've seen a couple of welsh doing it for a bit of banter, but no one seriously. The only serious one was an Irish poster yesterday (GunsGerms I think).

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Sun 03 Nov 2013, 9:43 pm

Cyril wrote:
DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:I remember it more as a fluke, we saw a team lucky to beat Samoa in the group stages,struggle against the Welsh in the quarter final until the ref helped them out in the second half,a semi final when the French shot themselves in the foot, then go onto win it with one kick.

Hardly entertaining and hardly world beaters.
I just had to chortle at that one

Good old view!

Don't forget sneaking past SA by 19 points and being lucky that Georgia and Uruguay didn't bring their 'A Game'.

My pleasure Cyril,anything to lighten up your evening, i imagine them evenings alone can get pretty dull?!
Suppose you must be bored of wearing ass less leather pants your leather studded hat oiling yourself up in the mirror listening to Duran Duran's Wild boys?.

by doctor_grey Sun 03 Nov 2013, 10:43 pm

Cripe, that's not necessary, Dave.

Well, were England not World Beaters in 2003? Let's see the record......
Total 17 tests, 16 wins

HIghlights include:

France, 4 tests: 3 England wins, home and away, only loss was by 1 point in a RWC warm up test
Wales, 2 tests, 6 Nations and RWC: 2 England wins, in Cardiff in Six Nations, in the RWC
Australia, 2 tests: 2 England wins, both in Australia, one in June and the other the RWC final
New Zealand, 1 test: 1 England win in Wellington
South Africa, 1 test: 1 England win in the RWC
Ireland, 1 test: 1 England win in Lansdowne Road to clinch the 6 Nations
Scotland, 1 test: 1 England win in Murrayfield

I think this is the type of record we all aspire to each year for our teams. Only NZ has consistently been able to do it.
This 2003 team won every match they played except one. And they played all the world's best teams.

Does this mean they were world beaters and very good? yes, most big wins were on the road

Does this mean they were the best ever? Of course not, no one can say that, and I doubt anyone here has said so
Does this mean we English fans can't look back wistfully? of course we can, will, and do (can't help ourselves, really)
Does this mean we can do it again? well, er, um, I hope so (but not playing like we just did against Australia)
Does this mean we can do it with this group of players? They do seem to need a little shoring up here and there, no?
Does this mean we can do it with these coaches? I hope so, but the jury is very undecided (similar, but opposite to a little obstruction)

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	Competition
France	25	17	15/02/2003	Twickenham, London	Six Nations
Wales	26	9	22/02/2003	Millennium Stadium, Cardiff	Six Nations
Italy	40	5	9/3/2003	Twickenham, London	Six Nations
Scotland	40	9	22/03/2003	Twickenham, London	Six Nations
Ireland	42	6	30/03/2003	Lansdowne Road, Dublin	Six Nations
New Zealand	15	13	14/06/2003	WestpacTrust Stadium, Wellington	Summer Tour
Australia	25	14	21/06/2003	Colonial Stadium, Melbourne	Summer Tour
Wales	43	9	23/08/2003	Millennium Stadium, Cardiff	RWC Warm-Up Test
France	16	17	30/08/2003	Stade Vélodrome, Marseille	RWC Warm-Up Test
France	45	14	6/9/2003	Twickenham, London	RWC Warm-Up Test
Georgia	84	6	12/10/2003	Subiaco Oval, Perth	World Cup Pool 3
South Africa	25	6	18/10/2003	Subiaco Oval, Perth	World Cup Pool 3
Samoa	35	22	26/10/2003	Colonial Stadium, Melbourne	World Cup Pool 3
Uruguay	111	13	2/11/2003	Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane	World Cup Pool 3
Wales	28	17	9/11/2003	Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane	World Cup Quarter Final
France	24	7	16/11/2003	Stadium Australia, Sydney	World Cup Semi Final
Australia	20	17	22/11/2003	Stadium Australia, Sydney	World Cup Final

by king_carlos Sun 03 Nov 2013, 10:55 pm

fa0019 wrote:
DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:I remember it more as a fluke, we saw a team lucky to beat Samoa in the group stages,struggle against the Welsh in the quarter final until the ref helped them out in the second half,a semi final when the French shot themselves in the foot, then go onto win it with one kick.

Hardly entertaining and hardly world beaters.
Fluke as in being unbeaten vs the 3N in 3 years and 12 matches home and away vs all up to and incl the RWC?

Fluke as in winning 3 out of the last 4 6N championships?

In 91, AUS were lucky to beat IRE in the QF.
In 95, SA were lucky to beat FRA in the SF.
In 07, SA were lucky to beat Fiji and not have to play NZ, AUS or FRA in the tournament.
In 11, NZ were lucky Joubert wears an ABs nightie to sleep each night.

Every team needs luck. England had some in 03, they made their own most of the time and that is generally the way things go in these tournaments.

Very well put fa0019 - every RWC winner has had a bit of luck on the way. As far as entertaining goes they didn't play the most expansive rugby but they had some cracking open field runners (Robinson, Lewsey, Cohen and Ballshaw) plus some very good playmakers in their own right (Dawson and Greenwood).

Given the players at their disposal they were right at the time to play a very structured game plan as that is what suited them. You just have to look at the depth in the pack in 03 to see why they favoured set piece play.

1.Woodman, Leonard
2.Thompson, West, Regan
3.Vickery, White, Rowntree
4.Johnson, Shaw
5.Kay, Grewcock
6.Hill, Worlsey
7.Back, Moody
8.Dallagio, Corry

by Cardiff Dave Sun 03 Nov 2013, 11:20 pm

When the world cup is up and running, does every nation have access to all their players? I seem to remember Dan Baugh not featuring for Canada some time ago because nobody would insure his dodgy knees. The South Sea Islanders I understand suffer in a similar way too. Any truth in this?

by doctor_grey Mon 04 Nov 2013, 12:20 am

Dave, the regulation, as I understand it (talked to a coach of the US team about this some time ago) is all clubs have to make time available for any player who qualifies for their national teams to play in the RWC. There were some exceptions, but I don't recall the speifics.

I recall two issues with the Pac Island teams. First was being able to afford paying the salaries of their players during the RWC. Seems each tournament, there are a few players who elect to continue to play for their clubs because they need the money. I remember it usually happens with the Pac Island teams, but also with some other smaller national teams. Hard to blame them really.

The second issue occurred in the last RWC. Fiji's government at the time came to power in a coup d'etat, and it was not recognised by the NZ government. So the question was whether the Fiji team could enter NZ, but that was resolved.

I don't remember the Dan Baugh incident, though I remember the name. It could well be the Canadian team couldn't afford the higher payments to insure Baugh. On the other hand, if no insurance company would insure him, maybe it was time to stop playing?

That's all I got mate. Hopefully someone else can fill in the blanks.

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