England Centres - why do we struggle with these two positions?

England Centres - why do we struggle with these two positions?

No matter who is in charge of England why is it we always struggle to find two guys who can play together for England.
Over the last 10 years we have tried many combinations yet we still haven't found a partnership to match or even come close to that of Greenwood and Tindall.

Why is that and who do you think would build a solid partnership?

The difficulty is finding two players who compliment each other. Quite a few guys have decent strengths but for whatever reason they don't gel.

It's the lack of centres with a complete skillset.

E.g. Barritt and Tuilagi - both have distinctive strengths in my opinion. Barritt as a defensive leader plus reliable figure and Tuilagi as an athletic powerhouse and raw X factor but both have weaknesses in their game that hold them back.

Barritt is not threatening enough in attack and lacks the ballplaying skills of other 12s. Tuilagi doesn't pass the ball enough and lacks awareness to make the correct decision.

Barritt is a solid choice but is unlikely to set the world alight. Tuilagi can set the world alight but has lapses in concentration and consistency.


England currently miss having the reliability of Barritt and the raw X factor of Tuilagi yet neither of these players have shown they can work competently in a consistent partnership.


Most of the other centres are unproven.

If we could merge Barritt and Tuilagi into one player we would almost have the complete package.

As to who I think could work together...that's a tough one.

No one has a right to have a rich locker of talent in any one position.

I would say however is that England have a lot of skillful centres but physically they've often not been up to stratch come test level... Dan Hipkiss, Anthony Allen, Jordan Turner-Hall, Matt Tait... all were a little on the smallish side for test rugby.

Quite simply the class of 2005 never really met the heights set by the Guscotts, Carlings (very underrated), Greenwoods, Catts & even Tindalls (when he was younger).

Barritt, Tuilagi are top class players and I would see them starting if fit. Twelvetrees has to take that extra step... can he be Toouma, Steyn, Henson or will he be a Olly Barkley

It's the lack of centres with a complete skillset.

Hit the nail on the head mate...we just dont seem to produce guys who are physical enough AND have the skills required.

Very true fa0019. Plenty of players that could have/should have....

Probably on reflection Noon wasn't actually as bad as portrayed.

It's weird to think that Barritt and Tuilagi managed to outplay the undoubted world class Nonu and Smith last season with both scoring a try yet have largely struggled as a partnership.

I think we'll find out in a couple of weeks that the NZ result was a complete one off and anomaly!

List of guys that have played Centre since 2000 for England that I can think of.

I expect there are more, Some talented guys in that list.

Mike Tindall
Leon Lloyd
Jamie Noon
Fraser Waters
Olly Barkley
Sir Wilko
Henry Paul
Geoff Appleford
Ben Johnston
Stuart Abbott
Mathew Tait
Toby Flood
Anthony Allen
Andy Farrell
Dan Hipkiss
Danny Cipriani
Riki Flutey
Tom May
Sam Vesty
Ayoola Erinle
Shontayne Hape
Manu Tuilagi
Brad Barritt
Owen Farrell
Jordan Turner-Hall
Billy Twelvetrees
Kyle Eastmond
Joel Tomkins
Matt Banahan

Bathite yes perhaps but if you look at England they have been pretty consistent hence the 3rd in the world rankings. England haven't even played particularly well but have got results.

There isn't as vast a gap as you would think in my opinion. Of course England will need to be at their best to have a chance vs the ABs but I feel that if England can hit top gear they could win again.

Defensively England have been a pretty tough side to break down aside from the Wales game.

Australia with seemingly a huge array of attacking talent could only manage 1.

England's problem still remain being threatening enough with ball in hand.

Another problem is that there has been much "messing about" and playing players out of position over the years.

Do not forget that Saint Jonny Wilkinson started many of his early caps in the centre (usually wearing the 13 shirt); Flood was ofter played at 12; Farrell was first capped as a 12; Geraghty was touted as being our saviour at 12 and was just not good enough.

England have often had what I would describe as "stodge" in the midfield. Those selected have been solid but not exciting. Crash Bang Tindall was used a few too many caps past his sell-by date but there hasn't been the development in the back-up department and there's too much reliance on "safe" or Tuilagi.

People talk about Eastmond being too small but he more than holds his own in the Premiership and can create magical things on the field. We have been crying out for a Guscott and or Greenwood for several years now but no England coach seems to be able to settle on someone "sparky". Tuilagi is great for "boshing" but his passing game is poor. He is not the be all and end all of OCs. SL seems to think so though...

Mr Bounce I would worry a lot about the likes of Nonu and Fofana being up against Eastmond.

You keep thinking about attack but defense is just as important.

36 being knocked over so easily by his opposite number is a bit of a worry too.

It also depends who the 9 and 10 are.

With Farrell at 10 (he's huge for a 10 - 6,2 and over 15st) a massive centre partnership are less of an issue as he's defensively strong but obviously he's less of an attacking threat than quite a few other 10s. You could see Farrell using his physicality in the 6 nations for England's 1st try vs Scotland where he stops Gray, to allow the ball to be released.

Burns or Ford at 10 with Eastmond in the centres would be too lightweight defensively personally.

12 - Burrell
13 - Tuilagi

As Mr Woodward recently said regarding Wade...."People thought Neil back and Jason Robinson were too small...so we'll just put that conversation to bed right now"

Eastmond does need to be put through the mixer in the prem first i agree before we put him on the pedestal...however if he can hack it physically and show his skills aswell then he should defo be considered in the 6n's. Maybe this AI's are just a little too early.
Also its not like Eastmond is slight of build. He's small in height but he's a muscly guy.

I would like to see Elliot Daley/Henry Trinder or even Antony Watson given a go at 13..
However you couldn't play Eastmond with any of them..
So the 12 would have to be one of  Burrell / Barratt / 36/ or Tuilagi..
England have the talent it is all about the best combo but god knows what that is.

Are there too many foreign imports in these positions in the Aviva ? Not a wind up, an honest question

munkian wrote:Are there too many foreign imports in these positions in the Aviva ? Not a wind up, an honest question

I don't think so there is a lot of talented English Centres around they just don't perform for England when selected, or the game plan doesn't suit them.

No Munkian i dont believe there are too many foreigners in ANY position now...the financial bonus for playing home grown academy players over foreigners has seen to that.

It may well be that Easmond and Tuilagi could be a decent partnership...with Eastmond the playmaker between Farrell (the controller) and Tuilagi the power. Farrell size and defensive ability also would mean Eastmonds diminutive height would not be an issue...

Scrumpy wrote:

munkian wrote:Are there too many foreign imports in these positions in the Aviva ? Not a wind up, an honest question

I don't think so there is a lot of talented English Centres around they just don't perform for England when selected, or the game plan doesn't suit them.

Which is an even BIGGER problem no ?

munkian wrote:Are there too many foreign imports in these positions in the Aviva ? Not a wind up, an honest question

There are a lot of foreign imports who do play centre agreed, perhaps too many but the English centres we do have just don't seem to step up in my opinion.

Look at Quins for example they have the likes of JTH,Lowe and Casson but none of them look good enough at the moment IMO.

At Wasps Elliott Daly should be starting at 13 but has been relegated to full back.

I guess thats a problem with relegation, as every game is a 'must win' the younger players don't get a run out enough - and when they do its because the more senior palyers are on International duty

munkian wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

munkian wrote:Are there too many foreign imports in these positions in the Aviva ? Not a wind up, an honest question

I don't think so there is a lot of talented English Centres around they just don't perform for England when selected, or the game plan doesn't suit them.

Which is an even BIGGER problem no ?

That's international rugby!

There is always injuries/loss of form and selection issues, I just don't believe with all the current guys we have that finding a partnership that clicks is so hard to find.

beshocked I don't discount your views at all re defence. However I see the issue being more one of conservatism rather than size.
England have always played at least one "bosh merchant" if not two, and a pair of dancing feet could work wonders for us. Not saying it will, but against the right opposition it could be deadly. I don't see Eastmond missing too many tackles in the Premiership and he would be picked up on that in a flash in the England camp as his name isn't Ashton.

I would just love to see a little more flair to go with the physicality.

I hate how everyone is writing twelevetrees off after one average game, he is still the future give him time, this year his pack are going backwards meaning his backline just get rubbish ball and he's struggling, he's still a 6ft 3, 16.5 stone centre who can kick, pass of both hands and bosch it up. With out a doubt i still see him and tuilagi as the future, lets see how he does against the argies IF farrell decides to stand flat and pass, 12trees is still class for me.

beshocked wrote:

munkian wrote:Are there too many foreign imports in these positions in the Aviva ? Not a wind up, an honest question

There are a lot of foreign imports who do play centre agreed, perhaps too many but the English centres we do have just don't seem to step up in my opinion.

Look at Quins for example they have the likes of JTH,Lowe and Casson but none of them look good enough at the moment IMO.

At Wasps Elliott Daly should be starting at 13 but has been relegated to full back.

Beshocked, I will give you JTH - he has been tried and not quite cut it, and the jury is out on Casson but you are being very harsh on Lowe.

Casson I think is good enough - he outplayed Twelvetrees when we last went to Kingsholm, for instance - but seems to be far too fragile. If he can put a run of 80 minute games together, he's got a feel for the game that reminds me of Greenwood, but at the moment it's one game on, 2 on the treatment table.

Lowe is good enough (he kept a senior international out of the Quins team while still a teenager, for example), but has been very unlucky - firstly, he didn't fit the style of Johnno's England, then there was Manu, then he got a bad ankle injury while playng well on tour with England A - and having got back to his best form at the start of the season (did you see his tap tackle on Varndell at the double header?), he's now got a neck injury that will keep him out for the rest of the season (and sounds like there's a chance it could be career ending).

It seems to me there are plenty of OCs who might make the grade, but we are woefully short of 2nd 5/8ths style 12s and don't have much time to bed them in.

The alternative might be to do something different. I personally thought that Matt Banahan looked far better in an England shirt at 12 than at 13 or on the wing. At IC his relative lack of manouvrability is less exposed, and his height made him a great offloader. Put a Tuilagi or an Eastmond alongside him and it would be very hard to defend. But no-one else seems to think this way, so maybe I'm just off my rocker.

Poorfour wrote:

beshocked wrote:

munkian wrote:Are there too many foreign imports in these positions in the Aviva ? Not a wind up, an honest question

There are a lot of foreign imports who do play centre agreed, perhaps too many but the English centres we do have just don't seem to step up in my opinion.

Look at Quins for example they have the likes of JTH,Lowe and Casson but none of them look good enough at the moment IMO.

At Wasps Elliott Daly should be starting at 13 but has been relegated to full back.

Beshocked, I will give you JTH - he has been tried and not quite cut it, and the jury is out on Casson but you are being very harsh on Lowe.

Casson I think is good enough - he outplayed Twelvetrees when we last went to Kingsholm, for instance - but seems to be far too fragile. If he can put a run of 80 minute games together, he's got a feel for the game that reminds me of Greenwood, but at the moment it's one game on, 2 on the treatment table.

Lowe is good enough (he kept a senior international out of the Quins team while still a teenager, for example), but has been very unlucky - firstly, he didn't fit the style of Johnno's England, then there was Manu, then he got a bad ankle injury while playng well on tour with England A - and having got back to his best form at the start of the season (did you see his tap tackle on Varndell at the double header?), he's now got a neck injury that will keep him out for the rest of the season (and sounds like there's a chance it could be career ending).

It seems to me there are plenty of OCs who might make the grade, but we are woefully short of 2nd 5/8ths style 12s and don't have much time to bed them in.

The alternative might be to do something different. I personally thought that Matt Banahan looked far better in an England shirt at 12 than at 13 or on the wing. At IC his relative lack of manouvrability is less exposed, and his height made him a great offloader. Put a Tuilagi or an Eastmond alongside him and it would be very hard to defend. But no-one else seems to think this way, so maybe I'm just off my rocker.

I agree about Banahan absolutely. He does have the size to draw people in and is a great offloader. I do think that ship has sailed though.

I don't think Tait is too small for Int Centre, circa 2007 he was pretty good IMO, just needs a big player inside him (not in that way, you perverts)

How can Lowe be rated as not good enough? He's never had a chance as he has spent a lot of time injured

He can't defend for toffee either  #ShaneWilliams

Who? Lowe, Tait or Bananaman?

sirtidychris wrote:I hate how everyone is writing twelevetrees off after one average game, he is still the future give him time, this year his pack are going backwards meaning his backline just get rubbish ball and he's struggling, he's still a 6ft 3, 16.5 stone centre who can kick, pass of both hands and bosch it up. With out a doubt i still see him and tuilagi as the future, lets see how he does against the argies IF farrell decides to stand flat and pass, 12trees is still class for me.    

His had more than one average game to be fair, I've never been that impressed by him to be honest but I'll happily be proved wrong if he feels like living up to expectation/hype this and next weekend.

If Banahan is confident and being used correctly he still has something to offer England if they want to play Bish Bash Bosh imo.

munkian wrote:He can't defend for toffee either  #ShaneWilliams

lets be honest here, who hasn't Shane Williams made to look crap!

ChequeredJersey wrote:Who? Lowe, Tait or Bananaman?

Bananaman, Shane stopped him scoring a try and Bananananaman failed to tackle him whilst scoring. There's also the intercept then falling over his own feet...a youtube classic

But I digress, please, cap him again, pref next time you play us    

You'd think some people would have enough to worry about this weekend without worrying about Englands centre options.  

Are you talking about yourself ?

You beat up The Pumas little brothers now the bigger boys are after you

Is it a problem with the centres or is it our inability to successfully pair centres with fly halfs?

We took the attacking and inventive Charlie Hodgson and paired him with two lumbering units in Noon and Tindall as opposed to the sparkling Abbott and Smith.

Toby Flood paired with Hape and Tindall instead of his club mates Allen and Manu.

Wilko who always played his best rugby with a creative IC and we send him to a world cup with Tindall wearing 12.

Farrell who likes to play deep and with a defensive general happy to truck it up and we try out the likes of Manu and Twelvetrees who love to take the ball on the gainline and play counter attacking rugby.

Where have we successfully paired players of similar mindsets? Twelvetrees and Tomkins will suit Flood or Burns who like to play flat far more than Farrell but a Burrell Tomkins combo would suit Farrell as Burrell is used to attacking from a deeper attacking line as he plays with Myler and has league experience.

beshocked wrote:

munkian wrote:Are there too many foreign imports in these positions in the Aviva ? Not a wind up, an honest question

There are a lot of foreign imports who do play centre agreed, perhaps too many but the English centres we do have just don't seem to step up in my opinion.

Look at Quins for example they have the likes of JTH,Lowe and Casson but none of them look good enough at the moment IMO.

At Wasps Elliott Daly should be starting at 13 but has been relegated to full back.

Beshocked - Elliot Daly is playing OC centre tonight against Sarries!

Isn't everyone struggling other than Wales who have two lions in the centre who won the series for the whole of Britain AND Ireland?

GloriousEmpire wrote:Isn't everyone struggling other than Wales who have two lions in the centre who won the series for the whole of Britain AND Ireland?

first post you've made me smile at in a while GE.  

formerly known as Sam wrote:Is it a problem with the centres or is it our inability to successfully pair centres with fly halfs?

We took the attacking and inventive Charlie Hodgson and paired him with two lumbering units in Noon and Tindall as opposed to the sparkling Abbott and Smith.

Toby Flood paired with Hape and Tindall instead of his club mates Allen and Manu.

Wilko who always played his best rugby with a creative IC and we send him to a world cup with Tindall wearing 12.

Farrell who likes to play deep and with a defensive general happy to truck it up and we try out the likes of Manu and Twelvetrees who love to take the ball on the gainline and play counter attacking rugby.

Where have we successfully paired players of similar mindsets? Twelvetrees and Tomkins will suit Flood or Burns who like to play flat far more than Farrell but a Burrell Tomkins combo would suit Farrell as Burrell is used to attacking from a deeper attacking line as he plays with Myler and has league experience.

Good anlaysis, mate.

But I think it is both simpler and more complex.  I believe Lancaster and his coven really don't have a clue abut how the back line should play and therefore, who should be playing.  Barrit and Tuilagi are easy to insert there because the clog the midfield on 'd' and can go powerfully forward.  Coaches don't need a real game plan to say "run straight lads".  In fact it makes me wonder if Lancaster has a clue.  And when i start to wonder, it doesn't take long to come to a conclusion.

Adter careful consideration, I now believe if England:
1.  Make a hash of the Argie match
2.  Play a game plan which neanderthals would find uncreative
3.  Are beaten in the scrum
4. Are beaten by the Argie backs
I want Lancaster fired.

If we see only the "hey boys run forward and let's hope there is someone to offload to" game plan, then its to the bin for all of them and we figure out whether Conor O'Shea or Jim Mallinder/Dorian West/Alex King takes over.  Its not too late.  In fact I wonder if the Saints front row, even without Hartley and Corbs is not better than what we will be putting out there on Saturday.   Jeez, I am in a foul mood.

Bloomin eck doc you started on the sauce early, what are you going to be like come kick off??

On paper

11. Yarde
12. Twelvetrees
13. Tuilagi
14. Wade
15. Foden

Lacks absolutely nothing! If Yarde continues then you get world class finishing from 4 of your 5 backs! Only wade is a bit suspect in defence but his skillset makes up for it! If Twelvetrees can grow into a leader at 12 then Tuilagi will be the perfect foil for him!

BamBam wrote:Bloomin eck doc you started on the sauce early, what are you going to be like come kick off??

Probably not too happy, mate. I want to see some creativity out of our centres. If all we see is the same old stuff, then what is Lancaster bringing to the table? Sadly, I am not on the RFU coaching review committee. I would have Lancaster on thin ice. And, yes, before you ask, I am overly critical and expect more than we have seen. Last season's 6 Nations really had only one or two good wins. The rest, leading up to the Wales debacle, were pedestrian, in my opinion.

Perhaps the combo of Catt and Farrell is not producing a cohesive game plan.

After last night a combo of Pohe and Manu shouldn't be too far away for Tigers and if it works maybe England. A 36 stone centre combo.

Glorious, I wouldn't big up the Welsh boys too much, JD2 lost us the second test.

Tiger/Chief wrote:On paper

11. Yarde
12. Twelvetrees
13. Tuilagi
14. Wade
15. Foden

Lacks absolutely nothing! If Yarde continues then you get world class finishing from 4 of your 5 backs! Only wade is a bit suspect in defence but his skillset makes up for it! If Twelvetrees can grow into a leader at 12 then Tuilagi will be the perfect foil for him!

I'm not an expert on English players but I would say that they lack settled partnerships and international experience as a unit

doctor_grey wrote:Adter careful consideration, I now believe if England:
1.  Make a hash of the Argie match
2.  Play a game plan which neanderthals would find uncreative
3.  Are beaten in the scrum
4. Are beaten by the Argie backs
I want Lancaster fired.

If we see only the "hey boys run forward and let's hope there is someone to offload to" game plan, then its to the bin for all of them and we figure out whether Conor O'Shea or Jim Mallinder/Dorian West/Alex King takes over.  Its not too late.  In fact I wonder if the Saints front row, even without Hartley and Corbs is not better than what we will be putting out there on Saturday.   Jeez, I am in a foul mood.

Cheer up Doc! It's going to be a great day! Against all the odds England are going to play fluent creative rugby and give us all something to cheer about. Then, later on, Wales are going to trounce South Africa by at least 15 points elevating us to #2 in the world. I am sure of these things! 

stub,
I really want waht you are drinking - but I hope you are right. But I am more concerned England will win by 6 and Wales gets stomped.

Just espresso Doc, for now at least.

Being realistic can tend to get a bit depressing where England are concerned so I sometimes take a break from it!

New prediction: Ashton to get 3....

Sounds like Nick Tompkins had a decent game vs Wasps in the LV cup yesterday. He's a young centre you should look out for in the future.