Strength in Depth of each nations teams today and looking forward to WC 2015

First topic message reminder :

Add your own countries and discuss. Ill start with Scotland , debate and disagree at your leisure  

notes;-

*1 indicates player who is currently unavailable but will be eligible come wc time.

*2 the messiah sent from almighty

2013 A TEAM                     2013 B TEAM                       2015 WC TEAM

15 Hogg-                                 Horne    -                     Hogg
14 Visser -                              Seymour   -                   Visser
13 Dunbar -                             De Luca  -                    Bennet  
12 Scott  -                              Taylor    -                    Scott
11 Sean Maitland  -                   Lamont  -                     Maitland
10 Jackson  -                           Weir    -                       Jackson
9  Laidlaw -                             Cusiter  -                      Laidlaw

1 Grant   -                                Dickinson     -                Grant
2 Ford   -                                 Mcarthur  -                   Mcarthur
3 Murray   -                              Cross     -                    Cusack * / Nel *
4 Swinson -                              Jonny Gray  -                Swinson                
5 Richie Gray  -                         Hamilton -                    Richie Gray / Jonny Gray
6 Rennie   -                              Barclay   -                    Rennie
7 Brown   -                               Strokosch  -                 Du Preez *               
8 Denton   -                              Beattie   -                    Josh Strauss * / Denton

The problem with listing strength in depth is that it is easy to rattle off a bunch of names whilst some may not have proven themselves yet. Regardless of the fact whether a player has looked good at club level is not a guarantee for international performance.

And even when they have played international rugby in a few games, do they really have the ability to upstage the experienced first choice player?

I look at Marcell Coetzee as an example, he has played a dozen or so tests, yet although industrious he simply isn't the quality that Schalk Burger was at the same stage of his career.

The problem we often encounter is we look at a young player and think they will be good enough, but that is just listing potential players that might have long careers at international rugby.

The question we should ask before adding a player to a list is whether he is anywhere as good as he predecessor was when he started his international career.

There are the obvious ones, players that stick out like a sore thumb, and those are few and far between.

I think Jesse Mogg is another example of a good SR player who couldn't make that step up. At least not yet.

Biltong wrote:The problem with listing strength in depth is that it is easy to rattle off a bunch of names whilst some may not have proven themselves yet. Regardless of the fact whether a player has looked good at club level is not a guarantee for international performance.

And even when they have played international rugby in a few games, do they really have the ability to upstage the experienced first choice player?

I look at Marcell Coetzee as an example, he has played a dozen or so tests, yet although industrious he simply isn't the quality that Schalk Burger was at the same stage of his career.

The problem we often encounter is we look at a young player and think they will be good enough, but that is just listing potential players that might have long careers at international rugby.

The question we should ask before adding a player to a list is whether he is anywhere as good as he predecessor was when he started his international career.

There are the obvious ones, players that stick out like a sore thumb, and those are few and far between.

+1

I think this is true of all the listings above - a player with 20+ caps might be considered experienced, but that still doesn't necessarily make them even close to international class (viz. Scotland)

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Biltong wrote:The problem with listing strength in depth is that it is easy to rattle off a bunch of names whilst some may not have proven themselves yet. Regardless of the fact whether a player has looked good at club level is not a guarantee for international performance.

And even when they have played international rugby in a few games, do they really have the ability to upstage the experienced first choice player?

I look at Marcell Coetzee as an example, he has played a dozen or so tests, yet although industrious he simply isn't the quality that Schalk Burger was at the same stage of his career.

The problem we often encounter is we look at a young player and think they will be good enough, but that is just listing potential players that might have long careers at international rugby.

The question we should ask before adding a player to a list is whether he is anywhere as good as he predecessor was when he started his international career.

There are the obvious ones, players that stick out like a sore thumb, and those are few and far between.

+1

I think this is true of all the listings above - a player with 20+ caps might be considered experienced, but that still doesn't necessarily make them even close to international class (viz. Scotland)

Agree, I think the secret of strength in depth is not rattling off 4 players in each position, but rather selecting a squad of 32 players that you believe will go to the RWC, then look at the 32 players and decided there the weakest positions are.

Cumbrian wrote:

AFewTooManyKnocks wrote:For English fans there is a great young English lock Matt Symons playing for Canterbury in NZ who has just been signed by the Chiefs for next years Super comp. He's very highly thought of down here and may be worth a punt in a world cup team in 2 years time if he returns home to look for selection.

Never heard of this guy hen he was England,  been doing some digging and he played for Esher.  It's a bit surprising that one of the London clubs didn't pick him up,  there has been a far greater awareness of the talent that exists in the Championship these days.

If he was at Esher then Quins would have been aware of him, but I don't think it's a surprise that they didn't pick him up. Now that most of the AP clubs have strong academies, they manage the player pipeline through the academy and will only look elsewhere in exceptional circumstances. So in recent seasons, Quins have picked up Kennedy, PDJ, Molenaar, Ward and Sackey as established players in response to senior players leaving or joining the long term sick list, and Botica as a long term replacement for Evans, but everyone else hascome through the academy.

In terms of locks, they have Matthews just out of the academy and Merrick and Twomey emerging, and they passed up Launchbury in order to keep Matthews (which still looks like a good long-term bet to me) - so taking in another lock from Esher was probably never on the cards. Wouldn't be surprised to learn that other clubs were in similar positions.

Biltong wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Biltong wrote:The problem with listing strength in depth is that it is easy to rattle off a bunch of names whilst some may not have proven themselves yet. Regardless of the fact whether a player has looked good at club level is not a guarantee for international performance.

And even when they have played international rugby in a few games, do they really have the ability to upstage the experienced first choice player?

I look at Marcell Coetzee as an example, he has played a dozen or so tests, yet although industrious he simply isn't the quality that Schalk Burger was at the same stage of his career.

The problem we often encounter is we look at a young player and think they will be good enough, but that is just listing potential players that might have long careers at international rugby.

The question we should ask before adding a player to a list is whether he is anywhere as good as he predecessor was when he started his international career.

There are the obvious ones, players that stick out like a sore thumb, and those are few and far between.

+1

I think this is true of all the listings above - a player with 20+ caps might be considered experienced, but that still doesn't necessarily make them even close to international class (viz. Scotland)

Agree, I think the secret of strength in depth is not rattling off 4 players in each position, but rather selecting a squad of 32 players that you believe will go to the RWC, then look at the 32 players and decided there the weakest positions are.

LOL  what else do you think this thread is about  

alive555 wrote:

Biltong wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Biltong wrote:The problem with listing strength in depth is that it is easy to rattle off a bunch of names whilst some may not have proven themselves yet. Regardless of the fact whether a player has looked good at club level is not a guarantee for international performance.

And even when they have played international rugby in a few games, do they really have the ability to upstage the experienced first choice player?

I look at Marcell Coetzee as an example, he has played a dozen or so tests, yet although industrious he simply isn't the quality that Schalk Burger was at the same stage of his career.

The problem we often encounter is we look at a young player and think they will be good enough, but that is just listing potential players that might have long careers at international rugby.

The question we should ask before adding a player to a list is whether he is anywhere as good as he predecessor was when he started his international career.

There are the obvious ones, players that stick out like a sore thumb, and those are few and far between.

+1

I think this is true of all the listings above - a player with 20+ caps might be considered experienced, but that still doesn't necessarily make them even close to international class (viz. Scotland)

Agree, I think the secret of strength in depth is not rattling off 4 players in each position, but rather selecting a squad of 32 players that you believe will go to the RWC, then look at the 32 players and decided there the weakest positions are.

LOL   what else do you think this thread is about  

Why don't you enlighten us?  

alive, in fairness, I've seen lots of lists of 'A' and 'B' teams now, plus likely 2015 RWC team - would be more interested in some analysis. Why don't you kick off with the original Scotland lists that you began with?

Depth is certainly handy but girth is just as important.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Depth is certainly handy but girth is just as important.

Tee hee!

For SA the strength in depth issues lie mainly at Lock. A host load of no.4... no real no. 5. No real middle jumpers of note with Bekker in Japan, Kruger not quite up to standard and Matfield way way into his sunny retirement (no matter what the papers say).

Backrow cover seems to be be a little short on the blindside too. Alberts aside who is the next best guy?
A lot of the flankers are smaller in Coetzee, Kolisi, Brussow, Botha. I rate Deysel a lot but he doesn't get enough game time as he's competing with Coetzee, Daniel & Alberts for a starting berth. Lets see what happens with White anyhow.

I also hope Elstadt gets more game time too next season. Top player in my book. Big guy, athletic, good lineout option.

wolfball wrote:People typically list every player they have ever heard of in these lists, so I am trying something different. I am only listing players who genuinely may be at WC 2015. Also, colour coded:

World Class (top 3 in position) in Black
International Class in Blue.
Untested at international level in Green (needs at least 10 caps against decent opposition)

1 Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne
2 Best, Cronin, Sherry, Strauss
3 Ross, Fitzpatrick, Moore, Archer
4 Henderson, McCarthy, Tuohy,
5 POC, Ryan, Toner
6 SOB, POM
7 Henry, O'Donnell,
8 Heaslip,

9 Murray, Reddan, Marmion
10 Sexton, Jackson, Madigan, Hanrahan
11 Earls, Zebo, Fitzgerald, Trimble
12 Marshall, Olding,
13 Paine, Henshaw, Griffin
14 Bowe, McFadden, D Kearney
15 R Kearney

Looking at this, our forwards, and centres are most worrying. Alot of great potential, and Joe Schmidt's task is to move those greens into blues over the next two years. And maybe even find a few blacks.

Just because a player isn't the top 3 in their position doesn't mean they aren't world class. Bowe isn't in the top 3 in his position (Savea,Smith,Habana,North,Le Roux) but is still world class. Also Best is world class most of the time.

I'd love to see a 30 man squad of :

Healy, McGrath
Best,Cronin/Sherry/Strauss
Moore,Fitzpatrick (Hopefully somebody else will come through)

That's a very strong starting front row and a potentially strong back up one.

POC, Henderson, Ryan, Tuohy.

Really good depth there IMO and POC and Hendo could be monstrous.

Ferris
SOB, TOD, Henry
Heaslip, POM

Ferris, SOB, POM to start would be unreal but probe won't happen. Again potentially very good depth but Henry, TOD, Jordi Murphy really need to be developed, also Hendo can play 6.

Murray, Marmion, Marshall

Again potentially really good depth.

Sexton, Jackson

Really really strong here with Madigan as well. Also JJ seems to be coming along nicely.

Olding, Marshall
Payne, Henshaw

I'm still not convinced about Henshaw but can't think of anyone else. We could see Olding at 13 then put Madigan as back up 12 but then again Payne will surely start. Marshall, Olding, Payne, will probably turn out to be world class options.

Bowe, Earls, Zebo, Fitzgerald, Gilroy.

Really excellent depth here. I can't see McFadden or Rob being in contention come 2015. Maybe D kearney but Rob is on the wane.

I guess the strength in depth question boils down to thus... Can you remain at your competitive best with injuries?

I remember Jonno saying when he was coach that at any given time, 20% of his first choice players will be unavailable. So lets say worst case scenario, if you take out your top 3 players or 3 most important players (not necessarily the same thing) can you still achieve your goals?

AUS without Pocock, Higginbottom & Horwill?
SA without Bismarck, Louw & Du Preez?

etc

2 years is a long time in rugby. Every year you have about 4 or 5 new players pushing for a place in the international squad. You also have premature retirements etc.

profitius wrote:2 years is a long time in rugby. Every year you have about 4 or 5 new players pushing for a place in the international squad. You also have premature retirements etc.

I agree

in 2001 if you said England would be playing Josh Lewsey, Ben Kay & Steve Thompson as the spine of your world cup ambitions you would have been laughed at.

Same with Frans Steyn, JP Pietersen & Butch James in 2005.

What we think our team will look like will even at the best will be probably 2-4 players shy of their first choice lineup in 2 years time.

profitius wrote:2 years is a long time in rugby. Every year you have about 4 or 5 new players pushing for a place in the international squad. You also have premature retirements etc.

This is also true, before the last world cup if you said that Rhys Priestland, George North and a backrow of Lydiate, Warburton and Faletau would be stand out players for Wales you would have been laughed at.

right, so 32 man squad (at this time) for England would look something like:

Corbs, Vunipola, Marler
Hartley, Youngs, Webber
Cole, Wilson, Thomas
Launchbury, Lawes, Attwood, Parling
Wood, Robshaw, Croft/Kvesic/Haskell/Johnson
Morgan, Vunipola

Dickson, Care, Youngs
Farrell, Flood, Burns
Barritt, Tuilagi, Twelvetrees
Wade, Ashton, Yarde
Brown, Foden

no real issue with any of that...

I've read some of this thread and my main thought is why do people get so irritated by other people's lists of 'fantasy rugby' players?

I find it peculiar that people get raw, and indeed mocking, in their remarks when they look at lists that - well, let's be serious here - are only names on a computer screen.

It seems that there are unspoken rules to these "List your Best Players/List your Best Upcoming Players" threads - and the main one seems to be that if you can't name players that other folks from other nations even know then you should raise a white flag, admit you have no upcoming players of any note, admit there are no alternatives coming along for old farts still playing into their 30s....  don't embarrass yourself and instead just name nobody

So, - I say less of the cheeky, giddy, back-of-the-class chuckles and more just respect people's opinions.  Not all of us have 50 million people to choose from... but we'll still do our best to keep playing rugby into the decade nevertheless - even if we still have to keep playing ancient 55 year olds to do so

Mad for Chelsea wrote:right, so 32 man squad (at this time) for England would look something like:

Corbs, Vunipola, Marler
Hartley, Youngs, Webber
Cole, Wilson, Thomas
Launchbury, Lawes, Attwood, Parling
Wood, Robshaw, Croft/Kvesic/Haskell/Johnson
Morgan, Vunipola

Dickson, Care, Youngs
Farrell, Flood, Burns
Barritt, Tuilagi, Twelvetrees
Wade, Ashton, Yarde
Brown, Foden

no real issue with any of that...

If you are happy with that, then you are fortunate, I don't think we are that far yet, Meyer said before the AI's he wants to have 25 of the 32 players jotted in ink by end of year.

So far the way I see it.

1. Beast
2. Bismarck du Plessis, Adriaan Strauss
3. Jannie du Plessis, Coenie Oosthuizen
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Pieter stpeh du Toit, Flip v d Merwe
6. Francois Louw
7. Willem Alberts
8. Duane Vermeulen.

That leaves some spots open. Although I believe he will definitely take coenie Oosthuizen and he wants to make him a tight head, I believe Frans Malherbe and Lourens Adriaanse might go, with Coenie going as a utility prop or Loosehead.

At lock I am not sure whether Bakkies will still be in the picture come RWC, so maybe Lood de Jager and Steenkamp will get a look in.

Our backrow, you have a number of players that will be monitored to be included, Schalk burger coming back from injury, he has played a few Currie Cup matches, Arno Botha injured but will certainly be back, Pierre spies (hopefully not), Lappies Labuschagne, Phillip v d walt, so there is a lot of competition there before the back row will be finalised.

9. Fourie du Preez, Ruan Pienaar
10. Morne Steyn, Joha Goosen, Patrick Lambie
11. Bryan Habana
12. Jean de Villiers, Jan Serfontein
13. Jaque Fourie, JJ Engelbrecht
14. JP Pietersen, Willie le roux
15. Frans steyn.

So far I have 23, the rest in my view are not sorted yet.

Picked only 3 in each position as could get silly...alot of good players, not alot of star players

1. Corbisiero, M Vunipola, Marler
2. Hartley, Youngs, Webber
3. Cole, Wilson, Thomas
4. Launchbury, Attwood, Slater
5. Lawes, Parling, Kitchener
6. Wood, Croft, Johnson
7. Robshaw, Kvesic, Fraser
8. B Vunipola, B Morgan, Dickinson/Ewers
9. Youngs, Dickson, Care
10. Farrell, Flood, Burns
11. Ashton, Wade, Sharples
12. Twelvetrees, Barritt, Burrell
13. Tuilagi, Tomkins, Trinder
14. Yarde, Strettle, May
15. Brown, Foden, Goode

alive555 wrote:Add your own countries and discuss. Ill start with Scotland , debate and disagree at your leisure  

notes;-

*1 indicates player who is currently unavailable but will be eligible come wc time.

*2 the messiah sent from almighty

2013 A TEAM                     2013 B TEAM                       2015 WC TEAM

15 Hogg-                                 Horne    -                     Hogg
14 Visser -                              Seymour   -                   Visser
13 Dunbar -                             De Luca  -                    Bennet  
12 Scott  -                              Taylor    -                    Scott
11 Sean Maitland  -                   Lamont  -                     Maitland
10 Jackson  -                           Weir    -                       Jackson
9  Laidlaw -                             Cusiter  -                      Laidlaw

1 Grant   -                                Dickinson     -                Grant
2 Ford   -                                 Mcarthur  -                   Mcarthur
3 Murray   -                              Cross     -                    Cusack * / Nel *
4 Swinson -                              Jonny Gray  -                Swinson                
5 Richie Gray  -                         Hamilton -                    Richie Gray / Jonny Gray
6 Rennie   -                              Barclay   -                    Rennie
7 Brown   -                               Strokosch  -                 Du Preez *               
8 Denton   -                              Beattie   -                    Josh Strauss * / Denton

In the interests of putting my money where my mouth is, here's my analysis of alive's lists for Scotland:

FBs - obvs Hoggy is the main man, but Maitland provides more than adequate cover; Tonks may or may not make it to this level, and there's still time for Tom Brown to prove that he is not a one-cap wonder
Wings - Maitland and Visser are probs most folks' penned it favourites to start, the deficiencies of the latter are known to all re defence so I won't bother covering that again; Seymour and Lamont provide decent cover at international level
Midfield - long Scotland's problem area, this is slowly beginning to change, with Matt Scott likely nailed on for the inside centre berth, and the Messiah is of course about to take the world by storm at 13, the new BOD, the new Jim Renwick, there is no hyperbole too great to cover his talent (FACT. End of.); plenty of able back-ups in Dunbar, Horne and Taylor, altho it remains to be seen how those 3 develop to full international quality players
Halfbacks - Jackson, Weir, Heathcote, Harry Leonard and Finn Russell are the candidates for flyhalf, and from that we will have to find a player that will make Scotland tick to whatever tactics Vern Cotter wants us to play; they all have strengths and weaknesses at this level, and RWC 2015 may come around too soon for the last too anyhew; the scrum-half cupboard is looking a little bare for Scotland for once, after a long line of international calibre players; I remain not entirely convinced by Greig Laidlaw in terms of his distribution, altho I realise that will offend a good chunk of Scots; in support there is Henry Pyrgos (not intl calibre imo), and ageing Chris Cusiter, who may well have taken to the commentary box permanently by then, and a couple of promising youngster in Ali Price, Sean Kennedy and Sam Hidalgo-Clyne; this looks an area of weakness for Scotland to me
Props - unconvincing sums up this area for me: the Rev Murray won't play on Sundays, & his powers are on the wane; Nel and Cusack will be SQ by then, but neither will have demonstrated their capability at this level by then; Cross is a good doctor and useful bench option, but I wouldn't want him in the front line; are Low-Welsh tight-heads or looseheads and will someone please make up their mind!; Ryan Grant and Dickinson look like decent loosie options, the former to start, the latter to bench
Hooker - again the cupboard looks a little bare to me: Ross Ford remains an enigma (can someone pls teach him how to hook?), Pat MacArthur is untried at this level but shows promise, and there's not a great deal after that
Second row - in contrast, some riches at last! The brothers Gray should both more than hold their own at international level, ably supported by Swinson, and I hope that Grant Gilchrist delivers on the promise that he showed last year, rather than the lacklustre form he has shown this year; will Jim Hamilton still be going? - a poss emergency back-up
Backrow - if only Ross Rennie would stay fit, I'd happily state that we have a genuine international class openside; Barclay is an admirable stand-in, and perhaps Fusaro wlil deliver at this level, but as yet he is unproven; I think we'll be picking between Denton and Beattie for the 8 slot, both have weaknesses to their games tho, and at 6 we'll be selecting between Brown, Strokosch and Harley, possibly on a horses for courses basis

Overall it's a mixed bag for me, a handful of players who are demonstrably international level players, a large handful more who could be, and a further large handful for whom the jury remains firmly out

I agree with Biltong's message at the top. Simply rattling off names has nothing to do with depth. England could field about 6 pretty decent XVs, and yet don't have a single top class fly half.

From a Scotland perspective we are getting better in terms of having one or two respectable players in most positions, but as we only have a small number of top class international quality players in the 1st XV, I hesitate to call that depth. However, there are a couple of positions where I do think we have a couple of pretty decent options:

Lock - I think Tim Swinson, Jim Hamilton and Richie Gray are all good international quality players.
Blindside - there's no question that Ali Strokosch and Kelly Brown are both international quality players.
Openside - both John Barclay and Ross Rennie have proven themselves good openside specialists at international level, although Ross Rennie is injury prone.
Scrum half - both Laidlaw and Cusiter are good experienced scrum halves.
Full back - I'm equally comfortable with Hogg or Maitland at 15.

Those are the only positions where I feel the replacement is pretty much on a par with the starting player, and where both options are of a good international standard.

I'll have a go at Wales' then. Listing the best players, and the players with little/no experience that I would expect to be there based on potential. Also, there'd be question marks over the 'senior' players availability, but what the heck.

1. Jenkins, James, Gill
2. Hibbard, Owens, Phillips
3. A.Jones, Lee, Jarvis
4, 5. AWJ, B.Davies, I.Evans, Charteris
6, 7. Warburton, Tipruic, Lydiate, L.Evans
8. Faletau, I.Jones
9. Rh.Williams, G.Davies, Phillips
10. Biggar, Priestland, Patchell
11, 14. North, Cuthbert, J.Williams, Amos
12. Roberts, Dixon
13. J.Davies2, Allen
15. Halfpenny, L.Williams

Utility players; Coombes, R.Jones, Hook.

Too soon to start banging out names for NZ. Its a certainty with the number of players we have brought through since 2011 that we will have several squad members that are not yet AB's, particularly under Hansen, who is introducing the depth at record levels.

With two full sxv, ITM and RC seasons to go every player within a sniff of an ITM contract up will be setting his sights on the 2015 World cup as we speak. That means those there now will either be fighting for their spot, will have retired, or given up the chase and gone for the loot in Japan or France.

If the current AB squad is the squad in 2015 I'd be very surprised and frankly hugely disappointed. NZ rugby evolves far to quickly to be stuck in that sort of a time warp.

Not one of the current squad is guaranteed a spot. Those most likely being the younger guys...Savea, Dagg, Cane, Whitelock, Aaron Smith, Cruden, Barrett, Piatau, Luatua and maybe a couple more. Anyone over 28, 29 now will be lucky at best and I'd expect only a core 4-5 of those.

The Saint wrote:I'll have a go at Wales' then. Listing the best players, and the players with little/no experience that I would expect to be there based on potential. Also, there'd be question marks over the 'senior' players availability, but what the heck.

1. Jenkins, James, Gill
2. Hibbard, Owens, Phillips
3. A.Jones, Lee, Jarvis
4, 5. AWJ, B.Davies, I.Evans, Charteris
6, 7. Warburton, Tipruic, Lydiate, L.Evans
8. Faletau, I.Jones
9. Rh.Williams, G.Davies, Phillips
10. Biggar, Priestland, Patchell
11, 14. North, Cuthbert, J.Williams, Amos
12. Roberts, Dixon
13. J.Davies2, Allen
15. Halfpenny, L.Williams

Utility players; Coombes, R.Jones, Hook.

No Eli Walker or Scott Williams, Saint? Pretty strong panel though in my opinion apart from backup for the centres and question marks over the halfbacks.

Also...Rhys Gill could do with gametime if he's the longterm plan. At the risk of drawing the ire of the Welsh...I don't think Jenkins is the player he was, he'll be what nearly 35 at the next WC?

The thins with us is guys is htta out tam is still really young and oure talent coming throguh wont mature for a few years.
I mean still player like John Davies, Scott, George, Sam and Dan are all still fairly young.
Then we have the two old starters in Geth and Adam
then players who have about 4-5 year left in them like Hibbard, Alyn Wyn and Jamie

but come 3 years time we will be rich with players, as we know our academies are great, by then players like Eli Walker, Dixon, Amos, Jordan Williams, Cory Allen, Owen Williams, Rhodri Jones, Samson Lee, Rob Evans, Jake Ball who I believe are the future of welsh rugby. A few who will even be starters in our world cup team maybe. But they are still only just coming onto the scene

The only two players who could struggle to make the world cup and pray no more carrier ending injuries or illnesses like Bennett, Burns or Matthew (pray he does get better though and can return to full health and fitness) affect us then we should have strength in depth then. At the moment it isn't as strong as I would like it though because of such a vast and inexperienced amount of play in our team.

God that just hit me that all of those were hookers, imagine if they were all still playing, our depth would definitely be at hooker

The Saint wrote:

10. Priestland

   

Now if theres a player begging never to be picked again. His dawdling reflexes and speed vs the Boks were like he alone was playing in slow motion.
I still swear that the Martians came and stole the real Priestland straight after the world cup in 2011.

Sorry but for the few horrid pieces of non skill I have seen at this level- last time it was kicking the line kick penalty's dead 2 or 3 times- he is just not international class- proven on several occasions.

Engine#4 wrote:
No Eli Walker or Scott Williams, Saint? Pretty strong panel though in my opinion apart from backup for the centres and question marks over the halfbacks.

I think Eli is a bit flakey from what I've seen. Scott Williams is a much improved player this season, unless he gets better he'll be surplus to requirements when you consider the capabilities of the other 4 centres. There's a quite a few players I left out actually.

Taylorman wrote:

The Saint wrote:

10. Priestland

   

Now if theres a player begging never to be picked again. His dawdling reflexes and speed vs the Boks were like he alone was playing in slow motion.
I still swear that the Martians came and stole the real Priestland straight after the world cup in 2011.

Sorry but for the few horrid pieces of non skill I have seen at this level- last time it was kicking the line kick penalty's dead 2 or 3 times- he is just not international class- proven on several occasions.

He started off like a rabbit in the headlights in the first game of the season, but has played exceptionally well in every single Scarlets game since. I don't think he is solely to blame for the loss to SA, plus it was SA, we weren't really expected to take them apart. I'd say this autumn is make or break, and hopefully it's make because he can be pretty hot with ball in hand. I suppose the other option is Jason Tovey but the management don't wanna give him a look-in. There's also Matt Morgan who is an alternative option.

Poorfour wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

AFewTooManyKnocks wrote:For English fans there is a great young English lock Matt Symons playing for Canterbury in NZ who has just been signed by the Chiefs for next years Super comp. He's very highly thought of down here and may be worth a punt in a world cup team in 2 years time if he returns home to look for selection.

Never heard of this guy hen he was England,  been doing some digging and he played for Esher.  It's a bit surprising that one of the London clubs didn't pick him up,  there has been a far greater awareness of the talent that exists in the Championship these days.

If he was at Esher then Quins would have been aware of him, but I don't think it's a surprise that they didn't pick him up. Now that most of the AP clubs have strong academies, they manage the player pipeline through the academy and will only look elsewhere in exceptional circumstances. So in recent seasons, Quins have picked up Kennedy, PDJ, Molenaar, Ward and Sackey as established players in response to senior players leaving or joining the long term sick list, and Botica as a long term replacement for Evans, but everyone else hascome through the academy.

In terms of locks, they have Matthews just out of the academy and Merrick and Twomey emerging, and they passed up Launchbury in order to keep Matthews (which still looks like a good long-term bet to me) - so taking in another lock from Esher was probably never on the cards. Wouldn't be surprised to learn that other clubs were in similar positions.

Slightly off topic I know, but another young Englishman who I thought played very well in NZ this season was a young prop from London Irish called Max Lahiff. I'm not sure how he was regarded in English circles, but he played very well for Hawkes Bay and has picked up a Melbourne Rebels contract for Super rugby. Another one who will head home at some point looking for a test call up.

It's great to see young guys heading to all corners to ply their trade.

AFewTooManyKnocks wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

AFewTooManyKnocks wrote:For English fans there is a great young English lock Matt Symons playing for Canterbury in NZ who has just been signed by the Chiefs for next years Super comp. He's very highly thought of down here and may be worth a punt in a world cup team in 2 years time if he returns home to look for selection.

Never heard of this guy hen he was England,  been doing some digging and he played for Esher.  It's a bit surprising that one of the London clubs didn't pick him up,  there has been a far greater awareness of the talent that exists in the Championship these days.

If he was at Esher then Quins would have been aware of him, but I don't think it's a surprise that they didn't pick him up. Now that most of the AP clubs have strong academies, they manage the player pipeline through the academy and will only look elsewhere in exceptional circumstances. So in recent seasons, Quins have picked up Kennedy, PDJ, Molenaar, Ward and Sackey as established players in response to senior players leaving or joining the long term sick list, and Botica as a long term replacement for Evans, but everyone else hascome through the academy.

In terms of locks, they have Matthews just out of the academy and Merrick and Twomey emerging, and they passed up Launchbury in order to keep Matthews (which still looks like a good long-term bet to me) - so taking in another lock from Esher was probably never on the cards. Wouldn't be surprised to learn that other clubs were in similar positions.

Slightly off topic I know, but another young Englishman who I thought played very well in NZ this season was a young prop from London Irish called Max Lahiff. I'm not sure how he was regarded in English circles, but he played very well for Hawkes Bay and has picked up a Melbourne Rebels contract for Super rugby. Another one who will head home at some point looking for a test call up.

It's great to see young guys heading to all corners to ply their trade.

Lahiff was pretty well know at London Irish and highly thought of, he's Aussie qualified and he left London Irish as he has chosen to go down the Wallaby route (many of us are gutted about this).

Thinking about players I'd want to see playing for us going forward and looking to develop as a side:

1.Corbs, Vunipola, Marler
2.Hartley, Youngs, Webber
3.Cole, Wilson
4.Launchberry, Attwood - Slater to challenge
5.Lawes, Parling - Kitchener/Kruis to challenge hopefully
6.Croft, Wood, Haskell
7.Robshaw, Kvesic
8.Vunipola, Morgan

9.Youngs, Care, Dickson - Hopefully Robson can challenge
10.Farrell, Flood, Burns

11.Yarde, May
12.Twelvetrees, Barritt, Eastmond
13.Tuilagi - I'd like to see a player such as Daly, Trinder or Lowe given a try as someone who offers an alternative option to Manu
14.Wade, Sharples
15.Brown, Foden, Tait - Harsh on Goode but I want pace in the back three

Sums up our side at the moment for me as the forwards look strong in most positions whereas the backs look undecided and untried.

Bottom line IMO is that if we don't develop our attacking game we will continue to do well due to our pack, defence and place kicking but wont regularly challenge the top sides. Hence why I've made some different shouts in the backs.

On the wings it's time to start selecting Yarde, Wade and May as they consistently look the most promising and dangerous wings in the country. Ashton desperately needs to develop his basic skills. Strettle still has great ability in broken play but just doesn't look as good as the young trio and please for christ sake can we stop playing FBs on the wing.

At outside centre I really hope we see someone with the pace to attack on the outside and use their back three given a chance. Hence why I've named Daly, Trinder and Lowe (whilst there are still a fair few other options).

The Saint wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

The Saint wrote:

10. Priestland

   

Now if theres a player begging never to be picked again. His dawdling reflexes and speed vs the Boks were like he alone was playing in slow motion.
I still swear that the Martians came and stole the real Priestland straight after the world cup in 2011.

Sorry but for the few horrid pieces of non skill I have seen at this level- last time it was kicking the line kick penalty's dead 2 or 3 times- he is just not international class- proven on several occasions.

He started off like a rabbit in the headlights in the first game of the season, but has played exceptionally well in every single Scarlets game since. I don't think he is solely to blame for the loss to SA, plus it was SA, we weren't really expected to take them apart. I'd say this autumn is make or break, and hopefully it's make because he can be pretty hot with ball in hand. I suppose the other option is Jason Tovey but the management don't wanna give him a look-in. There's also Matt Morgan who is an alternative option.

In NZ theres a point where we say 'theres a difference between ITM or sxv and test rugby' and once that point is reached in a player, theres usually no going back. Priestland is clearly in that group. Re-selecting him again and again after failures just sends the wrong messages. May not have been his fault vs the boks but in terms of depth he was certainly out of his. If you couldnt see that by just watching his efforts alone then I just dont get it.

I think he'll bounce back from that opening game, we'll have to see. Patchell isn't ready yet but he should be matured by 2015, and potentially he'll be one of the best in the world in his position.

He may, and thats very unlikely as theres a reason we have levels of play for some, and some for others. Point is he shouldnt have the chance to 'bounce back'. He's a consistent non performer at the test level and shouldnt keep getting chances. But we'll see...

There are lot of interesting points on here regarding the possible aimlessness of just posting the best three in each position. I would have thought any fan of a top ten ranked side could do so.

The strength is far more relevant than depth. How many of the suggestions have third choice players with more than ten caps? How many have played six nations rugby, or autumn internationals against SH teams and not just a summer tour.

I don't understand Maesteg. Why did you write just a summer tour? I would have thought a trip to Aus or NZ for 3 tests would be harder than playing at home.

perhaps its the Japan and Argie tours that Wales and England seconds took?