American GP Thread - Contains Spoilers - Sponsored by Sergio Perez's book on how to get F***ed over by Mclaren in 19 easy steps

[Fernando]

For the penultimate race of the 2013 season, Formula One makes it way to Texas and Austin’s Circuit of the Americas, the second time the sport has visited the 5.513km track.

Immediately popular with most F1 drivers on its inauguration last year, the counter-clockwise circuit is an intriguing blend of corner types, with sections modelled on famous stretches of some of the world’s most celebrated grand prix tracks.

The first sector in particular was singled out for praise by many drivers due to the challenge presented by its first corner, approached up a steep hill and featuring a blind apex, and because of the rapid changes of direction through turns four to six, said to resemble the Maggots-Becketts complex at Silverstone.

Sector two contains a long straight ending in a good overtaking opportunity at Turn 12, while the final sector is a more technical stretch similar in style to Hockenheim’s stadium section and the tricky Turn 19, a downhill medium-speed left-hander which many branded the toughest corner on the track to get right.

Last year’s race was notable for high track evolution over the weekend and cold weather that made getting tyres up to optimum working temperature difficult.

With Sebastian Vettel and his Red Bull Racing team untouchable in the Drivers’ and Constructors’ Championships attention turns to the runners-up spots, particularly in the teams’ competition. There, Mercedes, on 334 points, have an 11-point lead over Ferrari. However, the momentum is marginally with the Silvers Arrows, who have scored 67 points over the last four races compared with the Prancing Horse’s 49.

In the driver’s battle, with third-placed Kimi Raikkonen of Lotus set to miss the final two rounds of the season, second-placed Fernando Alonso of Ferrari looks certain to claim the runners-up spot.

Facts

Including Austin, Formula One has staged races at 10 different venues in the United States. Indianapolis Motor Speedway kicked things off with races from 1950-1960 and then staged the US GP again from 2000-2007. Following Indianapolis’ first stint, F1 World Championship races have also been held at Sebring (1959), Riverside (1960), Watkins Glen (1961-’80), Long Beach (1976-’83), Las Vegas (1981-’82), Detroit (1982-’88), Dallas (1984) and Phoenix (1989-’91).

Alan Jones is the only driver to win at more than two US venues. The Australian racer took his first victory on American soil at the 1980 US Grand Prix at Watkins Glen and the following year he won races at Long Beach and Las Vegas. All three triumphs were achieved at the wheel of Williams cars.

Lewis Hamilton is the only current driver to have won at more than one US circuit. The Briton took his second grand prix victory at the 2007 race in Indianapolis and landed his 21st win at last year’s inaugural Austin event. On both occasions he was driving for McLaren.

Michael Schumacher is the most successful Formula One driver at races designated as the United States Grand Prix. The seven-time champion won five times at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, in 2000 and from 2003-’06. The German’s 2005 win was notorioulsy scored at the grand prix with the fewest starters in F1 history. Just six cars raced the ’05 event after questions over tyre safety caused the withdrawal of 14 cars.

Next on the list of biggest winners are Jim Clark and Graham Hill, with three wins each. The pair dominated the US Grand Prix at Watkins Glen for a six-year spell in the 1960s, with Clark winning in 1962 and then claiming back-to-back victories in 1966-’67. Hill, meanwhile, rattled off a hat-trick of wins from 1963-’65.

Ayrton Senna is the most successful driver at multiple US venues. The three-time Formula One champion took two United States Grand Prix wins in 1990 and 1991 in Phoenix. He also won the Detroit Grand Prix three times from 1986-’88.

The driver’s race steward is 1992 F1 Champion, and 1993 CART Champion, Nigel Mansell. From 187 grand prix starts Nigel Mansell took 32 pole positions, 31 victories and 28 other podium finishes. He raced for Team Lotus, Williams, Ferrari and McLaren, winning the FIA Formula One World Champion in 1992 with Williams. The following season Mansell took a sabbatical from Formula One and raced in the CART championship. He become the first rookie to win that title and the only man to hold the Formula One and CART titles simultaneously. He returned to Formula One with Williams in 1994, taking part in four races, and scored the final win of his F1 career at the season-ending Australian Grand Prix. He briefly moved to McLaren in 1995 before retiring from F1 midway through the season.

Though California’s Alexander Rossi will take part in this weekend’s first practice session, the last US driver to start a home grand prix was Scott Speed in 2007. Driving for Toro Rosso, he started 20th and finished 13th at Indianapolis. Speed made his GP weekend debut with Red Bull Racing at the Canadian Grand Prix in 2005 in a practice session and made his race debut for Toro Rosso the following year in the opening round in Bahrain. He made 29 more starts for Toro Rosso before losing his race seat after the 2007 European Grand Prix at the Nurburgring. His replacement? None other than four-time champion elect Sebastian Vettel.

If Vettel wins this weekend, he will take the outright record for most consecutive wins in a single season. Vettel currently has seven wins in a row to his credit, the same number as seven-time World Champion Michael Schumacher, and ’50s legend Alberto Ascari.

Schedule

Practice 1 Friday 15:00 GMT
Practice 2 Friday 19:00 GMT
Practice 3 Saturday 15:00 GMT
Qualifying Saturday 18:00 GMT
Race Sunday 19:00 GMT

Source:RaceDepartment.com

[GSC]

The first sector is very good. 3rd is a bit eh.

Would like to see a few more modern tracks geared for overtakes mind

[Guest]

Enjoyed last year's race thoroughly, great overtaking & the hunting down of Vettel by Hamilton topped it off. This year, with nothing really to play for & the domination of Vettel, could see a more standard race. Interesting to see how Kovalainen gets on, if he's confirmed as Kimi's replacement.

[GSC]

What a lap from Vettel to take it away from Webber.

Grosjean and Bottas impressive

[bogbrush]

Enormous last sector from Vettel.

[Guest]

Quite amazing how the change of exhaust can improve a driver's performance & confidence in a car. Hoping Bottas can really kick on next year & show us even more of his ability. Red Bull basically .800 quicker than the rivals......

Vettel has better race pace than Webber & starts, therefore I can't see anything but a Vettel victory.

[Guest]

Anyone see the claim by Maldonado that Williams tampered with his car before qualifying. Embarrassing. Williams have rejected that any 'dirty tricks' were used by the team & that Pastor's performance was solely down to the driver.

I've never liked Pastor & this ridiculous claim furthers my opinion of him. God I hope Hulkenberg gets that Lotus seat.

[bogbrush]

Absurd behaviour by Maldonado.

Can anyone imagine being so stupid as to suggest a team would deliberately undermine their own driver?

[GSC]

Maldonado was blocked twice tbf to him.

Guiterrez receiving a 10 place penalty and Chilton a drive through for them

[GSC]

Kinda be surprised if Maldonado takes part in Brazil

[Gerry SA]

Kinda be surprised if Maldonado takes part in Brazil

Maldonado's sponsor has paid for 19 races, so Williams can't axe him.

Might be a problem during his pit stops though...

[monty junior]

Maldonado is garbage, he should be chopped from F1, he won a race because Hamilton got DQ'd in quali and frankly the Williams was a very good car, the fact they still finished 7th in the WCC is incredibly embarrassing with a car that with any top driver could have achieved multiple podiums.

Not only does he have a face like a smacked backside he has an attitude to match, Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton,Rosberg,Webber,Massa, Raikkonen,Grosjean, Hulkenburg,di Resta, Bottas, Ricciardo, Bianchi are all better drivers, he may have pace once in a blue moon but so does dennis the menace. Such an insult to an ATG team like Williams, i'm half cut at best so this has annoyed my even more

[monty junior]

Anyone see the claim by Maldonado that Williams tampered with his car before qualifying. Embarrassing. Williams have rejected that any 'dirty tricks' were used by the team & that Pastor's performance was solely down to the driver.

I've never liked Pastor & this ridiculous claim furthers my opinion of him. God I hope Hulkenberg gets that Lotus seat.

Insult to Frank, he should pop him a Glasgow kiss!

[Fernando]

Gutierrez 10 place pen
Chilton drive through in 1st 5 laps

[GSC]

As an aside, I can't stop laughing at Hamiltons helmet

[Guest]

Let's just hope for a 'Thriller' in Austin!  

[GSC]

Seriously what the hell is it

[Bull]

Let's just hope for a 'Thriller' in Austin!   

That's brilliant!  

[Fernando]

Let's just hope for a 'Thriller' in Austin!   

Don't worry John they will all be singing "Give Me Half A Chance" To Sebastien at the start  

[bogbrush]

Standard start for Webber.

[liverbnz]

Standard start for Webber.

Don't think is getaway was too bad he just got closed out by Vettel which allowed Groj an Lewis through. Irrelevant anyway as it was another routine Vettel win.

[beninho]

Another pretty dull race. Easy win and could have been treble the winning margin. At least a pretty poor season is nearly over. I say poor though if you like one horse races, and said horse an annoying German, then you would have been in your element this year. Hopefully next year will be tighter but I think it may be the team with the cash dominating again.

Great drive by romain he is getting better and better. Maccs may have dumped the wrong guy it seems aswell.

Tyres seemed to play less of a part but that didn't help the racing.

Anyone remember when teams didn't almost always finish races it seemed more fun when cars were less reliable.

[Guest]

Vettel is a complete class apart from the rest.  How he is able to get his set up right for each race compared to the far more experienced Webber is impressive.  He has completely changed the scene of formula 1.  Before him everyone was talking about Alonso & Hamilton - but now they are just footnotes (as is everyone else).  

Yes it's a team effort but Vettel was the missing link - before he arrived the Red-Bull - Newey (joined Feb 2006) - Webber (joined 2007) partnership had zero race wins.  The first win came in 2009 in China and it was Vettel who won - it was only his third race for Red Bull & he also took the pole.  It was in fact the first ever win for Red Bull in formula one racing.

A year before Vettel became the youngest driver to win a formula one race and it was for the minnows Torro Rosso - it was in fact the first ever win for Torro Rosso in formula one racing & it was a massive shock for them to be winning against the bigger teams.

On another matter: Nico Hulkenberg deserves to be signed up by a major F1 team - his performances at Sauber have been exceptional.

[beninho]

I really cannot see how vetell is a class apart. The combination is a class apart against the rest. But drivers that have seceded and won titles are superb drivers and there isn't going to be much between vetell Alonso Kimi or Lewis. It will, as always come down to the machinery. Sometimes there is to much hyperbole.

[GSC]

When he's in this form he is. Simply unbeatable

[Guest]

Predictable race. Watched it with my Dad this race & he made me laugh with the comment, 'they just go round & round & round, nothing much happpens & then their engineers tell them to slow down. Is that really the pinnacle of F1? He was then asleep around ten minutes later, while I persevered.

As for the race, dull as ever. Few good moments were Bottas' race performance & overtake around the outside, Perez showing that he's got the ability/speed over Button & once again Hulkenberg outperforming the car. Watching Lewis was incredibly frustrating, it was like he was carrying around two giant trees on his back all race, just looked slow to watch & horrible. No wonder he was irritated on the radio, F1 is just not suited to racers like him anymore, which is a real shame.

Have to congratulate Newey on 8 straight wins, four championships & once again complete domination of the sport. Joke, well done Vettel. Roll on Brazil.....oops I mean Australia.

[dyrewolfe]

Not a patch on previous US GPs.

Predictable start, followed 90 minutes or so later by a predictable finish. Nobody in the top 10 really made or lost much ground, come the chequered flag, other than Rosberg & Button, neither of whom made it to Q3.

Generally fairly dull, apart from a few banzai overtakes and some decent mid-field tussles.

Tells you everything you need to know about how dull and over-regulated the sport is becoming when the commentators feel obliged to point out that the first 20-30 lap stint is mostly going to be a tyre-management exercise and that the race will only come alive once everyone has pitted and is running with less fuel.

Its even more depressing listening to the radio messages going out to driver to slow down and conserve the tyres.

I hope to God the FIA or somebody tells Pirelli to make more durable tyres for next season, that can last 20-30 laps at full pelt, rather than by careful driving.

The race was so processional at times it was almost embarrassing.

Anyway, congrats to Alonso for securing 2nd in the drivers' championship. A good drive in a Ferrari that looked anything but easy to drive.

Brilliant drive by Grosjean, getting the better of Webber and holding him at bay quite comfortably for most of the race. If he can keep up this type of performance he is definitely a star (future world cahmpion?) in the making.

As for everyone else, it was pretty much as you were for the previous 8 races or so.

Sounded like Hamilton was thoroughly cheesed off at not being able to drive on the limit. Maybe his patience has finally worn out? Still found his outbursts a bit odd though, given the season effectively ended a couple of races ago. You'd think he'd be more chilled out and pragmatic.

Anyone know what was up with Webber? He was all over Grosjean's gearbox at times, but then seemed to back off and drop back. Overall only lost 1 place, to a driver in the form of his life, so not too shabby and another trophy to add to his collection. Hope he can do the same in Brazil and bow out on a high, of sorts.

On this performance, you have to wonder what McLaren are thinking, ditching Perez. It has to be that there is some kind of conflict going on behind the scenes, as you don't get rid of a guy with his ability after just 1 season, who has been scoring points, despite the car being as bad as its been. Definitely think Sergio's been hard done by and I really don't know why the team feel a total rookie like Magnussen will fare any better (in the short teerm at least).

Best of luck to Perez. Hope he finds a new drive - he deserves one.

Anyway, as John said...roll on next season...

[Guest]

Without engineering tyre degradation (& arbitrary rule to use two different grades of tyre) there would be no pit stops & then formula one would be even more precessional than it currently already is.  

In the past pit stops were required because they were allowed to load up the car with less fuel - but fuel changes have been banned for safety reasons.  Of course even with fuel stops races can still be precessional when you have a great driver - team combination & when the second driver lacks overall ability to compete with the other driver (e.g Schumacher - Ferrari combination).

An important issue is ability to overtake - at the moment as a driver tries to overtake the car runs into more turbulent air & has to go off the racing line - both of which leads to a tyre degradation penalty. Also many tracks are narrow and have few overtaking areas. This area of the sport needs to be scrutinised & changes made to improve overtaking (but remember without tyre degradation there would be no need for pit stops - apart from arbitrary rules).

The main issue (IMO) is that the Vettel - Newey - Red Bull combination is just too good for the rest.  The difference between Vettels & Webbers performances give an indication of the driver premium.

[dyrewolfe]

Without engineering tyre degradation (& arbitrary rule to use two different grades of tyre) there would be no pit stops & then formula one would be even more precessional than it currently already is.  

Disagree. When Bridgestones were used, they were SO durable that pitstops were hardly needed and overtaking was rendered nigh on impossible due to air turbulence.

NOW racing is almost as processional because drivers have to manage tyre degradation and so cannot make full use of their cars' performance...often negating things like KERS and DRS.

The pendulum has swung too far the other way. What is needed are tyres that can be driven flat out for a reasonable number of laps.

In the past pit stops were required because they were allowed to load up the car with less fuel - but fuel changes have been banned for safety reasons.  Of course even with fuel stops races can still be precessional when you have a great driver - team combination & when the second driver lacks overall ability to compete with the other driver (e.g Schumacher - Ferrari combination).

I never really understood this. How many people in the last 20 or so years were seriously injured by fuel fires? Taking away re-fuelling seemed like a knee-jerk reaction to me, in response to a very small number of incidents.

The fact drivers now have to manage their fuel also detracts from them being able to race to the limit (and the heavier cars just exacerbate tyre wear early on).

An important issue is ability to overtake - at the moment as a driver tries to overtake the car runs into more turbulent air & has to go off the racing line - both of which leads to a tyre degradation penalty. Also many tracks are narrow and have few overtaking areas. This area of the sport needs to be scrutinised & changes made to improve overtaking (but remember without tyre degradation there would be no need for pit stops - apart from arbitrary rules).

Thats why KERS and DRS were introduced. Until the rules are changed, such that aerodynamic devices are restricted to very basic wings and other things that don't cause so much turbulence, overtaking will remain difficult.

I think quite a few of the newer circuits have begun to address the issue of narrow track - the Austin track being one - by creating wide areas at corners, to aid overtaking outside DRS zones. Hopefully more of the older ones can be modified in the future to replicate this.

I agree tyre degradation is necessary...but not as much as we currently have.

The main issue (IMO) is that the Vettel - Newey - Red Bull combination is just too good for the rest.  The difference between Vettels & Webbers performances give an indication of the driver premium..

Well, thats an issue the teams need to address. Red Bull have set the benchmark - its up to everyone else to catch up.

[GSC]

The issue is a tad more complicated. If Pirelli make more durable tyres, teams will try and save them and do as few stops as possible regardless

[GSC]

I'd like to see refuelling return mind.

[dyrewolfe]

The issue is a tad more complicated. If Pirelli make more durable tyres, teams will try and save them and do as few stops as possible regardless

Possibly the less competitive teams might, since that strategy sometimes works for them.

But can you imagine drivers / teams that are fighting for podiums or titles holding back?

Imagine how much better Webber might have done, had he had more durable tyres? He'd still have finished behind Vettel, but perhaps he'd have had 2nd place, instead of Alonso.

Speaking of which, can you imagine how much better the likes of Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen would have done, had they not been forced to manage their tyres for long stints (or in Kimi's case, had his tyres "fall off the cliff")?

[dyrewolfe]

Funny, isn't it?

The new points system was introduced to encourage drivers to fight for positions...




...then they go and introduce extra-crumbly / exploding tyres that force everyone to drive much more carefully...

[GSC]

If its quicker to save tyres and do less pit stops then teams will do that. 

The soft tyre needs to be more durable certainly.

Blame the race in Canada where the Bridgstones imploded.

[Guest]

There are a lot of smart people involved in formula one (engineers etc) and a lot of money. One would hope that some sort of balance could be found - but I think it is not easy. Maybe bringing back fuel changes is something at least we here could agree on.

With regard flat out racing - that could lead to more dangerous accidents (not withstanding exploding tyres), whereas aspects of car & tyre management brings in added mental attributes of tactics and strategies (more intelligent racing).

But it is a fine line we are talking - most people want to see flat out racing. Hamilton used to talk about having the car on the knife edge maximising the speed but not going over the edge & losing it completely & possibly crashing - maybe that is an important factor that has been removed from the current formula one racing.

[dyrewolfe]

If its quicker to save tyres and do less pit stops then teams will do that. 

The soft tyre needs to be more durable certainly.

Blame the race in Canada where the Bridgstones imploded.

But thats a general rule of thumb that applies to most teams, depending on track / weather conditions - and look where thats got us. Even Mercedes, who have arguably had the biggest tyre wear issues, have tried to stick to what are considered to be optimum tyre strategies, preferring to manage the wear rate by running below their maximum pace, rather than make an extra stop.

Consequently on higher wear tracks, all they can do is trundle round and settle for 5th - 10th place, rather than make full use of the car's speed.

I don't know how these things are calculated, but I can't see how driving more slowly and making 1 less stop is ALWAYS better than blazing round at full pelt and making an extra stop.

Of course, you have to be fast enough to be able to build up a pit stop advantage time-wise (or at least not lose more ground than the car's performance will allow you to claw back)...not an easy thing unless you're in a Red Bull, but watching Hamilton being a sitting duck for Alonso, simply because he was having to manage his tyres, just takes all the enjoyment out of F1 for me.

Same thing watching Raikkonen dropping from 2nd (and challenging for the lead) to dropping out of the points in the last few laps of a race because his tyres were shot.

All I know is something needs to change...

[Guest]

Agree dyrewolfe, share the same thoughts. Just seen the headline on Eurosport F1 too, stating the teams fear a boring 2014. Sums the situation up.

[Fernando]

Pirelli cannot win in F1.

If they give tyres that can go flat out for a 1 stop race next year it's boring
If multiple stops it's ridiculous. The only way they can win is if you bring back re-fueling

[GSC]

The answer is obvious. Just make a tyre Hamilton can win on.

[Guest]

Get those Hungary tyres back ASAP

[Mad for Chelsea]

The tyre situation is a tricky one.

On the one hand, when the tyres were too durable (a few years ago) it led to remarkably dull races where everyone followed each other around for a few laps (somewhere between 10 and 20) on the soft tyre, then they all pitted, maybe a couple of guys switched places around, and they all followed each other around to the finish. It was only livened up if someone deliberately drove into a wall to bring out the SC, and even then not for very long.

On the other hand, I can't help feeling that the current situation places too much emphasis on tyre management, and drivers are just being forced to spend too much time looking after their tyres instead of driving flat out. There used to be something very exciting about watching Vettel or Hamilton doing "pole lap" after "pole lap" to build enough of a lead to come out ahead after a pit stop. Nowadays you have Vettel do a couple of fast laps off the start to get out of DRS range and then simply easing through the rest of the race. One of the most telling exchanges for me was the last few laps of the Hungary GP with Vettel catching up a bit so Hamilton was told he could/should increase his pace by 0.5 seconds "to make sure". His next lap was promptly 0.6 seconds quicker.

I appreciate that F1 can't only be about driving on the limit all the time, that tyre management has always been a part of it. However, you do need drivers to be on that limit at times, otherwise the sport is poorer for it, surely? Anyone else notice how very few DNFs these days come from drivers losing control because they're pushing too hard?

I'm not exactly sure what the solution is, and Nando makes a decent point a few posts above, but ultimately something needs to be done to make F1 exciting again. There needs to be more strategy than just "get pole, hit the front, conserve tyres while those behind are having theirs damaged by the dirty air", and more exciting action.

Bringing back refueling could be a decent start I suppose, brings back that strategical element. Another solution would be to do something about the "dirty air", can anything be done about that? It gives a huge (disproportional IMO) advantage to the pole sitter if he can get away cleanly.

[Fernando]

Could always extend the DRS range  

[dyrewolfe]

Pirelli cannot win in F1.

If they give tyres that can go flat out for a 1 stop race next year it's boring
If multiple stops it's ridiculous.  The only way they can win is if you bring back re-fueling

You're missing my point. Don't know if its deliberate or not, but I thought I made myself pretty clear.

I AGREE tyres shouldn't last a full race distance - I'm well aware that would risk making races even more tedious.

HOWEVER...they need to be more durable than they currently are, so that race strategies aren't dominated by tyre management like they are so often these days.

Refuelling would help, as it would mean cars could start races a lot lighter and wouldn't be doubly handicapped by extra fuel, coupled with tyres already worn from qualifying.

For me, the number of stops is irrelevant. Teams should be able to make as many, or as few stops as they feel they need to.

What I DO want is to see the majority of teams being able to run their cars to the max, for the majority of races.

It used to be that teams only told drivers to slow down if they had mechanical/electrical issues with the car that needed to be managed. Now its accepted that large stints of races will be run at 80-90% of maximum performance, simply to make sure they have enough tyres to get to the end of the race.

Call me daft, but surely that can't be right?

[dyrewolfe]

Could always extend the DRS range  

Well there are a few circuits where it could do with tweaking, but equally there are some where it appears to be too easy to overtake.

And whoever is in charge of setting these up, needs slapping for coming up with "double DRS zones" which have resulted in the farcical situation of one driver making an overtake...only to be re-taken a few hundred metres later by the guy he just got past.

[GSC]

Such is the challenge for Perelli

Make a tyre that deteriorates at the same rate when you push/don't push, while making such tyre last less than half distance.

Also they can't test the tyre

[dyrewolfe]

The tyre situation is a tricky one.

I appreciate that F1 can't only be about driving on the limit all the time, that tyre management has always been a part of it. However, you do need drivers to be on that limit at times, otherwise the sport is poorer for it, surely? Anyone else notice how very few DNFs these days come from drivers losing control because they're pushing too hard?

Well, pushing too hard was part of the problem, but I think improved car design / reliability has also dramatically reduced the number of DNFs, as well as having a lot of new and much more forgiving circuits, with massive run-off areas. These days, drivers can loose control without any serious incidents at many cuircuits...or if they realise they can't make a corner, they can simply use an escape road or run-off area.

Have you noticed how gravel traps and armco barriers seem to be absent from all the newer circuits? Now its all tarmac and astro turf.

[dyrewolfe]

Such is the challenge for Perelli

Make a tyre that deteriorates at the same rate when you push/don't push, while making such tyre last less than half distance.

Also they can't test the tyre

You're also missing the point.

The reason teams don't / can't push is because the tyres will deteriorate ridiculously quickly.

Of course all the cars are designed and set up differently and will use the tyres differently.

However, if Pirelli could find a compound that allowed at least half the teams (or more) to run their cars at maximum pace for at least 15-20 laps, we would see more competitive racing, instead of what are essentially "fuel burn-off phases" where they just manage tyre degradation while they wait for the cars to get lighter.

Even without that (which could be solved by bringing back refuelling) you see plenty of cars struggling in the 2nd and 3rd stints of races, which often ruins any chance of competitive action in the closing stages of races.

If the teams felt confident they could push to the max and still run more or less optimum tyre strategies, I think we'd see a lot more wheel to wheel racing.

Even Sebastien Vettel gets told to look after his tyres after a few "quali" laps at the start to build up his lead. For all practical purposes he doesn't even need to look after his tyres, but just so RB can have a nice, relaxing "race" he is told to cruise when he can.



I do appreciate your point that they can't do much testing of the tyres...though I do believe the FIA introduced limited tyre testing to help Pirelli with their problem. That said, making tyres is their supposed area of expertise. How hard could it be to produce tyres with, say 20% less degradation for a given operating window / temperature range? After all, they have a couple of seasons' worth of empirical data to look at now.

[Guest]

We will get to see Pirelli test a prototype of their 2014 tyre for the first time in Brazil this weekend, although how much will be learnt on 2013 cars is questionable.

The combination of the new turbo engines and enhanced energy recovery systems is expected to deliver more power than the current V8 engines, with reports suggesting total output could be around 850bhp, some 70bhp more than this season. The turbo engines will also produce torque in a completely different way, with the transmission almost constant throughout the rev range, while the electric motors of the ERS systems will deliver almost instantaneous torque when they are used. The extra stress on the tyres, particularly the rears, with the very real potential for drivers to wheelspin even in high gears, could lead to overheating, high wear rates and extreme degradation, so much that Pirelli has reportedly claimed the 2014 cars would shred the current 2013 tyres in a handful of laps. With limited data available, they have had to take the worst-case scenarios of what they do have, and that means their tyre designs will be more on the conservative side.

[Fernando]

Pirelli cannot win in F1.

If they give tyres that can go flat out for a 1 stop race next year it's boring
If multiple stops it's ridiculous.  The only way they can win is if you bring back re-fueling

You're missing my point. Don't know if its deliberate or not, but I thought I made myself pretty clear.

I AGREE tyres shouldn't last a full race distance - I'm well aware that would risk making races even more tedious.

HOWEVER...they need to be more durable than they currently are, so that race strategies aren't dominated by tyre management like they are so often these days.

Refuelling would help, as it would mean cars could start races a lot lighter and wouldn't be doubly handicapped by extra fuel, coupled with tyres already worn from qualifying.

For me, the number of stops is irrelevant. Teams should be able to make as many, or as few stops as they feel they need to.

What I DO want is to see the majority of teams being able to run their cars to the max, for the majority of races.

It used to be that teams only told drivers to slow down if they had mechanical/electrical issues with the car that needed to be managed. Now its accepted that large stints of races will be run at 80-90% of maximum performance, simply to make sure they have enough tyres to get to the end of the race.

Call me daft, but surely that can't be right?

I wasn't even acknowledging your point DW.

When i say extend the DRS Zone i meant as instead 2.5 seconds instead of 1 for DRS. So then if want to get away you've gotta push harder and face ruining your tyre early or defend well but maintaining them  

[dyrewolfe]

Pirelli cannot win in F1.

If they give tyres that can go flat out for a 1 stop race next year it's boring
If multiple stops it's ridiculous.  The only way they can win is if you bring back re-fueling

You're missing my point. Don't know if its deliberate or not, but I thought I made myself pretty clear.

I AGREE tyres shouldn't last a full race distance - I'm well aware that would risk making races even more tedious.

HOWEVER...they need to be more durable than they currently are, so that race strategies aren't dominated by tyre management like they are so often these days.

Refuelling would help, as it would mean cars could start races a lot lighter and wouldn't be doubly handicapped by extra fuel, coupled with tyres already worn from qualifying.

For me, the number of stops is irrelevant. Teams should be able to make as many, or as few stops as they feel they need to.

What I DO want is to see the majority of teams being able to run their cars to the max, for the majority of races.

It used to be that teams only told drivers to slow down if they had mechanical/electrical issues with the car that needed to be managed. Now its accepted that large stints of races will be run at 80-90% of maximum performance, simply to make sure they have enough tyres to get to the end of the race.

Call me daft, but surely that can't be right?

I wasn't even acknowledging your point DW.

When i say extend the DRS Zone i meant as instead 2.5 seconds instead of 1 for DRS. So then if want to get away you've gotta push harder and face ruining your tyre early or defend well but maintaining them  

I'm pretty sure you were, given the post that I quoted referred to tyres (and that Pirelli can't win). I responded to your DRS comment separately.

Anyway, regarding DRS, I see what you mean now...increasing the gap at which it becomes available. I suppose that would lead to more overtaking, but unless they figure out how to position the zones on the track better (and maybe do away with the 2-zone concept) I don't think it would change the overall outcomes all that much.

As you said, the teams/drivers would be faced with the choice of pushing harder to increase the gap and get out of DRS range, or simply defending more aggressively. Both choices are pretty poor as they tend to result in increased tyre wear.

We've already seen that most teams seem to prefer tyre management to actual racing, so again, unless Pirelli produced a more durable tyre that made pushing harder, or more aggressive defending, feasible, I think we'd still see the same kind of thing we have now.

Oh yeah...almost forgot the hug...here it comes...  

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