All Blacks frustrated by Joubert

by GloriousEmpire Sun 17 Nov - 0:54

First topic message reminder :

Steve Hansen has expressed his frustration at Joubert's calling of the breakdown.

In a cleverly worded side swipe, Hansen said England's approach to the breakdown caused his side problems, saying the All Blacks need to adapt to what appears to be different laws that apply at Twickenham:

"From what I'm seeing, you can seal off the ball and go off your feet, whereas in the southern hemisphere that just gets smashed. You not allowed to do it. It's something that we have to adapt to.''

by Scratch Mon 25 Nov - 22:49

GloriousEmpire wrote:Tell you what. Lok those words up in a dictionary. Look back over your posts, and the post match Irish thread and then you can do your own Joubert and admit you're wrong. How about that?

I did, it has 2 O's (and no Ws)

You're welcome thumbsup

by GloriousEmpire Mon 25 Nov - 22:54

I graciously accept your clear admission that your spurious argument lacks any merit. For surely diverting your discourse to focus on my iPad typo must surely be thus.

by Taylorman Mon 25 Nov - 22:56

Scratch wrote:Come on Taylorman you can do better than that? The Sexton scenario was to illustrate it went your way but if the tables were turned and it did not there would have been tears and wwwwwwwwwwailing at bedtime.

I am not an Irish fan but i supported them because they beat you at your own game for 80 minutes, the score was just a detail and everyone knows that. Great win for your team but NZ scraped through v Ireland and for periods were in the same mess v England, times are a changing and quicker than you might think.

The name on the team sheet went without incident but it was a distasteful affair and i would bet my mum's underwear that had NZ lost and it had been a SA 'error' on their team sheet then NZ fans would have been vociferous in their allegations of impropriety….just sayin', of course it's just my opinion and therefore must be a WUM right.

Jealousy of the All Blacks…..to some extent who wouldn't be but my post is not motivated by that, rather the lack of grace aspects of the NZ press, fans and management show in victory. It's well documented not least on here. By no means pathetic, i don't think I would go that far, and i certainly wouldn't big it up as much as you have, you kind of make the point again for me, but you must be right, I mean what fan/player wouldn't want to have achieved what they have yet still there has to be something wrong. Players do their talking on the pitch, wish the fans could.

Better than what?
I dont make things up. then use it as a criticism of them. How stupid is that?
Yes players do their talking on the pitch...so what are you doing? Egg.

One of the stupidest posts Ive seen.

by Scratch Mon 25 Nov - 23:00

GloriousEmpire wrote:I graciously accept your clear admission that your spurious argument lacks any merit. For surely diverting your discourse to focus on my iPad typo must surely be thus.

there, you can be graceful.

You wax lyrically Empire, but unfortunately my retort was in response to your suggestion that i 'go look in a dictionary'

Hardly drowning in merit and certainly not what i would expect from one with such a lofty intellect.

by Scratch Mon 25 Nov - 23:09

Taylorman wrote:
Scratch wrote:Come on Taylorman you can do better than that? The Sexton scenario was to illustrate it went your way but if the tables were turned and it did not there would have been tears and wwwwwwwwwwailing at bedtime.

I am not an Irish fan but i supported them because they beat you at your own game for 80 minutes, the score was just a detail and everyone knows that. Great win for your team but NZ scraped through v Ireland and for periods were in the same mess v England, times are a changing and quicker than you might think.

The name on the team sheet went without incident but it was a distasteful affair and i would bet my mum's underwear that had NZ lost and it had been a SA 'error' on their team sheet then NZ fans would have been vociferous in their allegations of impropriety….just sayin', of course it's just my opinion and therefore must be a WUM right.

Jealousy of the All Blacks…..to some extent who wouldn't be but my post is not motivated by that, rather the lack of grace aspects of the NZ press, fans and management show in victory. It's well documented not least on here. By no means pathetic, i don't think I would go that far, and i certainly wouldn't big it up as much as you have, you kind of make the point again for me, but you must be right, I mean what fan/player wouldn't want to have achieved what they have yet still there has to be something wrong. Players do their talking on the pitch, wish the fans could.

Better than what?
I dont make things up. then use it as a criticism of them. How stupid is that?
Yes players do their talking on the pitch...so what are you doing? Egg.

One of the stupidest posts Ive seen.

Oh, clearly i was wrong, you can't do better. I apologize for wasting your time, getting you so wound up so very very easily.
thumbsup

BTW please refrain from hiding behind your NZ vernacular. It is totally unnecessary and offensive. I could respond but you will scream WUM the minute you read anything you disagree with….anyone would think i was a referee. Thanks

by Guest Mon 25 Nov - 23:22

The Irish were very gracious yesterday and much respect to the fans in the aftermath. On the flip, after 80 mins, I recall thinking our goose was well and truly cooked and was reflecting on how Ireland deserved their win and that Owens had reffed well. I was resigned to the loss and was not going to claim any injustice or moral victories as there was nothing. This is just credit to Owens really. He has now reffed two very good games that I've seen and is now top equal in my estimation if not top. Credit also to Joubert for saying what he did after the Pom game. He's just going to review his performance and is just what good teams do also. The pain of RWC07 was a watershed moment for the ABs as has been shown by subsequent results and some close wins.

Lastly, just about the gap and beatability of the ABs. Yes we are beatable of course. But in fairness, these discussions are usually had after games where we've played away from home and either lost or have just scraped home. We've had some big wins at home. Does the gap all of a sudden get wider after home games only to shrink again when we play away. It's a constant battle to improve and stay marginally ahead of the chasing pack. When we start losing 2-3 games on the trott is when the empire may start to falter.

by mystiroakey Mon 25 Nov - 23:29

I have no idea why you lot are whinging about this game and i have no idea why you think Joubert has apologised for anything. He hasn't said anything of the sort.

by Scratch Mon 25 Nov - 23:40

ebop

always the voice of reason.

empires always do falter in the end.

by Guest Mon 25 Nov - 23:42

Not whinging mystir, asking the question so that we 'learn' something for next time. It's what good teams do. Admit that this info has come second hand rather than from the horses mouth but it must be true otherwise Joubert would not be pleased and come out and refute it.

by mystiroakey Mon 25 Nov - 23:46

I have no idea why you think "reviewing the situation" means "I messed up" or "I am sorry"

If you are hounded by press - that's a good way of dealing with the situation. when ever I have an Irate customer I allways say I will review the situation. I then 99% of the time come back saying everything was fine if they take the matter further.

by Taylorman Mon 25 Nov - 23:54

Scratch wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Scratch wrote:Come on Taylorman you can do better than that? The Sexton scenario was to illustrate it went your way but if the tables were turned and it did not there would have been tears and wwwwwwwwwwailing at bedtime.

I am not an Irish fan but i supported them because they beat you at your own game for 80 minutes, the score was just a detail and everyone knows that. Great win for your team but NZ scraped through v Ireland and for periods were in the same mess v England, times are a changing and quicker than you might think.

The name on the team sheet went without incident but it was a distasteful affair and i would bet my mum's underwear that had NZ lost and it had been a SA 'error' on their team sheet then NZ fans would have been vociferous in their allegations of impropriety….just sayin', of course it's just my opinion and therefore must be a WUM right.

Jealousy of the All Blacks…..to some extent who wouldn't be but my post is not motivated by that, rather the lack of grace aspects of the NZ press, fans and management show in victory. It's well documented not least on here. By no means pathetic, i don't think I would go that far, and i certainly wouldn't big it up as much as you have, you kind of make the point again for me, but you must be right, I mean what fan/player wouldn't want to have achieved what they have yet still there has to be something wrong. Players do their talking on the pitch, wish the fans could.

Better than what?
I dont make things up. then use it as a criticism of them. How stupid is that?
Yes players do their talking on the pitch...so what are you doing? Egg.

One of the stupidest posts Ive seen.
Oh, clearly i was wrong, you can't do better. I apologize for wasting your time, getting you so wound up so very very easily.

BTW please refrain from hiding behind your NZ vernacular. It is totally unnecessary and offensive. I could respond but you will scream WUM the minute you read anything you disagree with….anyone would think i was a referee. Thanks

Apology accepted.

by GloriousEmpire Mon 25 Nov - 23:55

mystiroakey wrote:I have no idea why you think "reviewing the situation" means "I messed up" or "I am sorry"

If you are hounded by press - that's a good way of dealing with the situation. when ever I have an Irate customer I allways say I will review the situation. I then 99% of the time come back saying everything was fine if they take the matter further.

Yeah, this is why my approach to customer service is always to go in aggressively from the beginning. I have no time to waste on this kind of fob-off from people who can't be bothered to do their jobs properly. I start at legal action, contacting the relevant regulator or the threat of mass media exposure, taking names, recording dates and times and letting whichever representative of a company I am forced to face off to first know that there is no point in their wasting my time, and that the consequences for them will be profound unless they rectify their faults within a prompt time line. If you Cat around you'll just get taken for a ride.

by mystiroakey Mon 25 Nov - 23:58

Luckily I have charm and no one has ever gone down that route with my company..

However on the other side I can be just as bad as you

by GloriousEmpire Mon 25 Nov - 23:59

I wasn't casting aspersions in your direction. Just to clarify. More thinking about recent experience moving house. I swear every single utility provider messed up grand style. Not one managed the simple and I would've thought, core business activity of doing a relocation without ballsing it up in some grand manner. And then, the ridiculous excuses I heard...

by mystiroakey Tue 26 Nov - 0:02

Just moved myself- I was on this chat box to edf for 2 hours because i couldnt get through on the phone

It drove me mad

by Scratch Tue 26 Nov - 0:03

GloriousEmpire wrote:I wasn't casting aspersions in your direction. Just to clarify. More thinking about recent experience moving house. I swear every single utility provider messed up grand style. Not one managed the simple and I would've thought, core business activity of doing a relocation without ballsing it up in some grand manner. And then, the ridiculous excuses I heard...

Let me guess….we can't make it today because the guys have a cold.

by GloriousEmpire Tue 26 Nov - 0:07

mystiroakey wrote:Just moved myself- I was on this chat box to edf for 2 hours because i couldnt get through on the phone

It drove me mad

Seriously I have a letter from NPower that says: "Sorry we haven't sent you a final bill yet. A technical problem has meant it's not possible to close your account at the moment. But relax! Don't worry, we will sort it out and send you out a final bill and confirm your account closure shortly. If you have received a bill or confirmation of your account closure please call us back and let us know how much we charged you."

Seriously, I kid you not. I have it right here. Astounding. This, after they couldn't manage to invoice me for over a year and then sent me a bill for almost five thousand pounds. Which it turned out they just made up having lost all record of my actual meter readings or usage.

by blackcanelion Tue 26 Nov - 1:57

Pretty disappointed if the OP is correct. If Joubert didn't penalise because he essentially didn't see England as getting an advantage then that's stunning. I wonder if there's more to it. You have to hope so. It had a huge impact on the game and the way the teams played.

by quinsforever Tue 26 Nov - 2:24

GloriousEmpire wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Where has he said this?

I doubt very much if Joubert said such a thing as he'd be stating he cheated.
I leave you to draw your own conclusions about cheating.

I wouldn't go that far. I think in trying to be a bit clever he made an error. He assumed their was no "material impact" in his own words of not penalising England for deliberately sealing off.

He believed this was true because he thought NZ had insufficient numbers to effect a turn over anyway as they were standing off.

However as Richie and Shag pointed out, NZ were standing off because there was no chance of a turn over given that England were sealing off.

NZ are calling it "chicken or egg refereeing" which has a nice possibly unintentional pejorative feel to it.

The added confusion is that Joubert was apparently not clear on what he was doing until late in the game, so imagine NZ's clear frustration that when they observed England sealing off every ruck they thought Joubert was allowing it - tried it the sleeves and got pinged.

To me, I think Joubert's approach was just wrong. Just call the laws and use the penalty count to discourage the activity and that way the game will flow anyway. Some peoples opinion differs. Fair enough.

What is clear though is that Joubert didn't communicate effectively why he was allowing this to continue until very late in the game. Luckily there was still time for NZ to rectify once they understood.

Staggeringly, the adaption made in the last 20 minutes saw NZ steal the game back and they finished with 4 times more turn overs than England for the match. Astonishing.

Talk about adapting to the referee!
unsurpisingly, joubert's comments haven't made it into the english rugby media

the ABs did (or should have) get pinged for a lot of other stuff too in the first half as has been highlighted by AB posters. Mealamu, Nonu, Franks, several clear not rolling away after the tackle examples, some ruck collapsing, etc.

overall i thought joubert had a pretty decent game. maybe there was a communication issue between him and McC. who knows?

re the last twenty minutes, obviously its easy to praise NZ for adapting to Joubert and credit that for their play, but there were three other big factors for me that also contributed:

- england lost 4 out of 6 own throw lineouts for whatever reason
- england were clearly very tired
- england's bench had far less impact that NZ's bench

anyway, i thought it was a good game overall. the kind of intensity that you hope for in a test match. some storming england forward play (as an ex-forward, and being english that obviously warms my heart), some great AB skill in the backs.
How has "being tired" become a preferable excuse for losing? Isn't that just inadequate fitness training, too much bulk? Poor selections? Or lack of depth by another name?

"being tired" is not an excuse. i made an observation about what i thought were the key reasons NZ dominated the last 20 minutes. i would guess that very few of those england players have operated at that level of intensity for 60 minutes this season, hence why they were so tired. not an excuse at all. but i think its accurate. same happened to ireland if i'm honest. they gave everything, went out too hard to be sustainable, and NZ dominated the last 20. no excuses there either. kudos to NZ.

by tigerleghorn Tue 26 Nov - 7:56

GloriousEmpire wrote:I wasn't casting aspersions in your direction. Just to clarify. More thinking about recent experience moving house. I swear every single utility provider messed up grand style. Not one managed the simple and I would've thought, core business activity of doing a relocation without ballsing it up in some grand manner. And then, the ridiculous excuses I heard...

Perhaps you had to wait so long (or still waiting?) is because of the way you spoke to the utility reps?

I find that if I get the other person on my side with a bit of creepy schmoozing they're more likely to go the extra mile for you.

The carrot is often more effective than the stick!

by GloriousEmpire Tue 26 Nov - 9:03

tigerleghorn wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:I wasn't casting aspersions in your direction. Just to clarify. More thinking about recent experience moving house. I swear every single utility provider messed up grand style. Not one managed the simple and I would've thought, core business activity of doing a relocation without ballsing it up in some grand manner. And then, the ridiculous excuses I heard...
Perhaps you had to wait so long (or still waiting?) is because of the way you spoke to the utility reps?

I find that if I get the other person on my side with a bit of creepy schmoozing they're more likely to go the extra mile for you.

The carrot is often more effective than the stick!

Nope. Just failure to do their jobs properly. The consequence of outsourcing jobs to low cost off shore resources who are inadequately managed by people who resent their soulless job.

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