England vs New Zealand: Player Ratings (ours and the press')

So, After watching the game in less than perfect circumstances yesterday in the middle of a rowing race, I've rewatched and tried to rate players from both sides today. I'll also link in all the press ratings I can find, please comment, add your own and add any press ratings I have missed

Warning all my stats are from ESPN and therefore probably dismal
ENGLAND

15- Mike Brown (BIAS ALERT)- continues his great form, strong in the air and showing his usual strengths going forward but also absolutely immense in defence. Not the perfect player but England player of the AIs with his strength and attitude. 8/10. Stats shot: made 6 tackles and missed none, beat 7 defenders
14- Chris Ashton - tried hard but still positionally defending poorly and England's stodgy midfield does not use his strengths. He wasn't actually that bad but needs a rest because even in great Sarries form he is not delivering for England in their style, and I would start Wade who can create something from nothing unless we drastically alter/improve the rest of our backs. 5.5/10. Stat attack: Made both his tackles (but not always in position in the game and too narrow) - 5 carries for 15m.
13- Joel Tomkins- thought he was actually OK against Argentina. Here he killed all momentum he received with either mistakes or stodge. Maybe he deserves more time but not clicked in that easily. Tempting to put in a nimbler player like Trinder or Eastmond until Manu is fit again. 4/10. Stats central: missed 2 tackles, turned over the ball more than any other player (3 times as a centre!) and made no passes, admittedly with limited ball.
12- Billy Twelvetrees- again a mixed bag with some lovely half-break wriggles through the centre, making yards and tons of endeavour. Often offside, did not pass much to Tomkins at all which effectively meant that our back 3 never get ball in open game. Chargedown was lucky not to be costly. Great attitude, needs more composure, but if he gets that he has the talent to spark the backs. Vital if. 6/10. Stats ahoy: 55 metres made, only 4 passes out of 20 touches.
11- Ben Foden- decent but quiet game out of position. Took the try that wasn't from the intercept well. Loved it when he messed up a kick under pressure, then made up for it by a brilliant kick chase on Dagg, then a run back to make a vital tackle. Needs to play at FB if anywhere or off the bench and I would use both him and Brown at FB in the 6N and future with a horses for courses approach and both have different strengths. 5.5/10 Stats and lies: only 6 metres off 4 runs and 3 made tackles with one missed but then didn't really get any ball to use.
10- Owen Farrell- doesn't spark the backline but he is improving in this regard and frankly neither of his centres helped him. Great gritty attitude marred by an awful dive. Good defence and icy kicking, terrible chip attempt at one point. I think he had a decent gaem actually overall and his management was good. 7/10. Stat blaster: 8/0 in tackling and some were big, 100% kicking for once
9- Lee Dickson- good service IMO, managed the pack well, box-kicked ok but occasionally shipped it when he should have boxed himself. Occasional snipe to keep ABs thinking would have been nice.He has impressed and surprised me. 7/10. Stats are where it's at: Only kicked 4 times and probably should have done more.

BTW great physicality from the whole pack and they worked together really well in mauls, rucks, scrums and drives.
8- Billy Vunipola- couldn't go the full 80 but looked really good. Needs to sometimes not tuck the ball to open up at least the opportunity for the offload but worked hard, and troubled the All Black defence every time he ran. Needs to work on control at the base. Definitely going to be a really classy player in a couple of years, Sarries have improved his game. 7/10 (was 7 until I remembered how he committed himself to Read for no reason in NZ's first try, which was a big and costly error). Running out of other ways to say stats: Only beat one defender but made 59m, the most in the English side.
7- Chris Robshaw (BIAS ALERT)- led from the front, really good leadership, talking to the ref and decision making and work at the breakdown and defence. Didn't see his handling game today and I'd like to see England utilise that. Missed one tackle he shouldn't have on Franks. 7/10 Stats: made 9/1 tackles, despite what people have been saying only conceded 1 penalty.
6- Tom Wood- impressive game with some big hits and good lineout work when his teammate Hartley was throwing. Probably could have carried more but obviously another leader for England and together with Robshaw his fitness and workrate in all aspects lets us play 2 heavy-duty carrying 8s in the 23 and not suffer. 7/10. Stats: 5 lineout takes and 5 tackles
5- Courtney Lawes- really good game IMO, led the lineout well and I take back what I've said about his show-ponyness. Made lots of tackles and tried to drive the man back every time, and showed some deft hands and made hard yards. 7.5/10. Stats: 6/0 at the lineout and 7/0 in defence.
4- Joe Launchbury- really good 5.5, like having another flanker in the ruck. Usually part of the workrate trio with Captain Fantastic and Wood, but did less this match than the last couple. Underused in lineout and didn't have to make many tackles. Well taken try. May be worth letting Attwood have a go in the 6N for at least one game as we know Launch is good enough and should build depth. 7/10 (went up 0.5 for try). Stats: One try but not as many touches (9) or tackles (2) as I'd expect.
3- Dan Cole. Decent match but unlucky to be in a compromising position in defence a couple of times. Scrummaged well as expected and grew throughout the match here. The Kiwi commentators thought NZ did well in the scrums but I actually think they were a tad lucky with their wheeling. Rucked hard but also did less work than we've seen in the past. 6.5/10. Stats: Only touched the ball once but made 4 tackles to one miss.
2- Dylan Hartley- good before his unfortunate injury, miles better at the lineout than T Youngs and worked hard with the ball he had, though could have carried more as he is a good option there. Missed some tackles but together with his props scrummaged well. 7/10- Stats: made all his throws, 4/2 in defence
1- Joe Marler (BIAS ALERT)- proved some doubters wrong. Got an edge over Franks in the scrum as the match progressed and worked really hard in defence. carried a bit but this part of his game still seems a shadow of his Club game, and he didn't show any offloads that I'd expect of him. Good showing for 3rd choice LH. 7/10. Stats: 6/0 in tackles, only 6 m for 6 carries
Subs- Props got little game time at all, T Youngs needs to work hard on his throwing. Not sure what was going wrong but it really made the last 20 mins incredibly hard for England. Parling reduced the impact our pack was making, Morgan looked in good nick and made 21 m and 3 tackles, B Youngs wasn't great but NZ were competing better at rucks at that point. Too slow once the ball was out though. Flood was pretty poor to be honest in every respect but also suffered from players around him, Goode didn't have the time to do anything.


NEW ZEALAND - shorter bits as I'm tired and have spent too long on this:

15- Israel Dagg- solid game, some nice touches and kicking and good pass for Read's try. 7.5/10. An assist and 50m.
14- Chales Pitau- looked dangerous and good in the air, needs to learn the rules re the quick lineout and not always in position. 7/10. Also 50m
13- Ben Smith- not fitted in at 13 yet but still made Tomkins look like the one out of position. Nice recovery work at several points. Solid, probably better on the wing if another 13 becomes available. 7/10. uninteresting stats
12- Ma'a Nonu- Great set up for try 3. Worked hard in defence but also missed tackles. Hard running in attack buit to little avail, hands were slick though. 7.5/10. Assist and 11/2 in D.
11- Julian Savea - 2 top finishes, so strong and natural at that part of his game. Improved under the high ball. Terrible defence but made up for it with his attack. NOT my MOTM. 8.5/10. 2 tries and 72m but 0/3 in D
10- Dan Carter- Solid before he went of, lovely chip to B Smith and was kicking well and dictating play but sadly short stay in the game. 6.5/10 - made 3/0 as England ran down his channel
Aaron Cruden- Not his best game but kicked pretty well and attacked the line. Not looking as devastating as in the Summer and last season. 7/10. Missed a kick but made 7/0 tackles
9- Aaron Smith- Not great, passed well but disrupted a bit by England at rucks at scrums. Box-kicked poorly. Worked hard in defence. 5.5/10. Made 5m only and 2 turnovers.
8- Kieran Read- Immense. unlucky with yellow which was correct due to the penalty after a stream of others but could have been a penalty to NZ with England holding on when Messam competed. Great set up, great try, great work rate and breakdown work. Best player in the world right now. 9.5/10. 1 yellow but only 1 penalty, 51m made, 1 assist, 1 try, 10/0 tackling, 1 clean break, 3 lineout takes, nearly perfect but for the yellow.
7- Richie McCaw- not his best but worked hard when Read was off to minimalise the effect. Got frustrated as a 7 and a captain but it was his control and calls for patience that helped edge the ABs back into the game and score the winning try. 7/10. 15/0 in defence
6- Liam Messam- Solid game, high workload and good on the floor. Better than McCaw generally but didn't have the job of captaining 7/10. 12/1 in defence
5- Luke Whitelock- huge shift in defence and immense in the air. Not much carrying and too many penalties. Outplayed in ruck 7.5/10. 19/0 tackles, 2 penalties, 4/0 in lineout.
4- Brodie Rettalick- Messed up a lineout early on, solid game but not exceptional.  5/10. 1/1 lineout
3- Owen Franks- second best in scrum across the match, some great tackles though included on Brown and a great break and run. 6/10. 11/2 in defence
2- Kevin Mealamu - Worked hard, not effective in rucks though and little ball in hand, meh game. 6/10. 10/1 in defence
1- Tony Woodcock- beaten in scrums, made his tackles but did nothing in terms of carrying. 5/10.

Subs- Luatua worked hard, Crockett good work on floor but silly to give away penalty which could have been worse, Kerr-Barlow not that reassuring, where is Perenara? Cruden has his own section above.



http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/nov/16/england-new-zealand-players-rated
15 Mike Brown 8/10 If every Englishman had his levels of brio and defiance, 1066 would never have happened. And then there's the skill and pace. His second half. was quite something

14 Chris Ashton 5/10 Still not going his way, but he can't be faulted for energy and effort. The timing remains elusive, and he ruined one attack with a silly kick, but ruined one of theirs, too, with an intercept.

13 Joe Tomkins 4/10 Was heading for a two at half-time. Nothing was working for him. Every touch resulted in a turnover. But much improved in second half. – to his credit.

12 Billy Twelvetrees 7/10 Lots of energy and involvement. Looked threatening on the gainline, although couldn't quite get the ball away like an All Black might have. His best game of the autumn.

11 Ben Foden 6/10 Nothing spectacular, although that interception would have been nice, but he was solid in defence and an option in support, once to great effect at the end of the first half.

10 Owen Farrell 7/10 Perfect with the boot and very lively with ball in hand. But the back division still not purring like a sports car. Is that his fault? Has to be, partly.

9 Lee Dickson 5/10 A couple of good clearances in the first half and always looking for action. But he looked too hard for it when he overcommitted for All Blacks' first try.

1 Joe Marler 7/10 Part of a scrum that had New Zealand's in all kinds of bother in the first half. He continued with his bristling carries from last week. A headache at loosehead for Lancaster.

2 Dylan Hartley 8/10 His 50th cap is one he should remember fondly. Immaculate at the lineout and a handful in the loose. Lineout deteriorated when he left

3 Dan Cole 6/10 A relentless drill bit burrowing into the heart of the All Blacks' set piece. But he conceded an early penalty and his opposite number left him for dead in build-up to the second try.

4 Joe Launchbury 8/10 Unbelievably good for the 45 minutes he was on the field before an injury interrupted it. Carry after carry, offloads, lineout takes, mauls and a try

5 Courtney Lawes 9/10 England's second-rows were brilliant. See the entry above. Lawes did the same, only more of it, because he stayed on for the whole game. Deserved to be on the winning side.

6 Tom Wood 7/10 Excellent match, better even than last year's when he was never man of the match. A presence at the breakdown and his soft hands were regularly involved

7 Chris Robshaw (capt) 6/10 Tireless industry, as always, and often on hand to keep moves alive. His black eye deserves a point, but isn't getting one. Conceding penalties, though, loses him one

8 Billy Vunipola 8/10 Really starting to impose himself, and not just in fits and starts. A fantastic hour's work, although he was suckered for the early try. King of the restarts.

REPLACEMENTS Geoff Parling (for Launchbury 46); Tom Youngs (Hartley 51); Ben Morgan (Vunipola 59); Ben Youngs (Dickson 65); Toby Flood (Farrell 68); Alex Goode (Tomkins 77); Matt Mullan (Marler 77).

NEW ZEALAND

15 Israel Dagg 7/10 He is master of all he surveys at the back. Rarely hassled into anything as vulgar as a mistake. Put Read away for his try, but forced one run and was tackled into touch.

14 Charles Piutau 6/10 A thorn in the side at the breakdown and a couple of darts but not quite displaying the brilliance of last weekend. Still, one All Black takes a back seat, others step forward.

13 Ben Smith 7/10 High quality, as always. One of the stars of this annus mirabilis for the All Blacks. Moves to centre with no discernible drop-off. Beat his opposite man in buildup to second try.

12 Ma'a Nonu 7/10 Two points for that offload alone. It typified the All Blacks. One minute you think you're beating them, the next they do a thing like that. A couple of tricky dinks early on, but otherwise quiet.

11 Julian Savea 9/10 Two tries, but that was the least of it. Full of running and offloads. Loses half a mark for offloading once to Ashton at the end of another run, but half-marks don't show up here.

10 Dan Carter 6/10 A great shame. His 100th cap ended with the great man hobbling off in the 26th minute. Up until then he'dcross-kicked, distributed and converted with the usual aplomb

9 Aaron Smith 6/10 He's a neat player. Sent one out on the full early on, but you don't pull off some of the manoeuvres New Zealand did without a sharp operator at scrum-half

1 Tony Woodcock 4/10 An afternoon of indignity that a centurion shouldn't have to endure. Some good close-quarter work, but in trouble at scrum time and also guilty of an obstruction.

2 Keven Mealamu 5/10 His lineout was accurate, but he had a poor first half at the scrum and around the field, all of which improved significantly in the second half. On balance, OK.

3 Owen Franks 5/10 Great rumble in the buildup to New Zealand's second try, but his first duty is to scrummage, and he felt the heat there.

4 Brodie Retallick 7/10 New Zealand's best tight forward, he put in a hard afternoon's work. Lovely little inside ball to send Franks away. Never shies from tackling.

5 Sam Whitelock 6/10 Strangely muted in the first half, but put in a much better shift in the second, when he rose to take lineouts and looked for work as a carrier

6 Liam Messam 6/10 The All Blacks' Mr Fix-It, he made a lot of messy stuff tidy again. Terrifying when leading the haka, he's not very much less intimidating on the field

7 Richie McCaw 7/10 Game of two halves. Muted in the first and, for once, got on the wrong side of the ref. But in the second, ie when it mattered, he came through very strongly

8 Kieran Read 9/10 Probably should be an 8, because he made a couple of key errors, not least being sent to the bin. But that first 20 minutes of his was so good. Without it, they would have lost

REPLACEMENTS Aaron Cruden (for Carter 26) Pulls the strings with some skill 7 Wyatt Crockett (Woodcock ht) Helped re-establish order 7 Charlie Faumuina (Franks 42); Dane Coles (Mealamu 59); Steven Luatua (Messam 65); Tawera Kerr-Barlow (A Smith 70); Ryan Crotty (Piutau 72).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10454128/England-v-New-Zealand-Player-ratings.html

England
Mike Brown
Another fine display of classic modern-day full back play; solid and with a good kick chase. Some of his cover tackling was quite heroic. 8/10
Chris Ashton
Average again. One dreadful decision to kick the ball away in New Zealand's 22 will haunt him. You just can't do that. 5
Joel Tomkins
Oh dear. Has just not cut it in this series. Penalised for holding on and knocked on twice in the first half alone. 4
Billy Twelvetrees
He had a solid game without doing anything eye-catching. He was never shown up physically but he never escaped from the New Zealand defence. 6
Ben Foden
Ran away for a long-range `try' that was disallowed, but otherwise struggled to involve himself. England need a winger here. 6
Owen Farrell
Another mixed bag. He kicked well off the floor but was horribly exposed for lack of a left foot once. Was always competitive but still the England back line will not click. 6
Lee Dickson
He was decent but little more. He snapped away, passed and kicked competently. He made one good quick tap but otherwise was no threat. 6
Joe Marler
His scrummaging has improved and it could be that the loss of the injured Alex Corbisiero might not be as keenly felt as was first thought. 7
Dylan Hartley
He led England out on his 50th cap and again proved that his extra bulk makes England such a potent scrummaging outfit. 7
Dan Cole
Back in the side and making a point as part of an excellent scrummaging effort from England. 7
Joe Launchbury
Scored a try and had an outstanding first half in the tight and loose, but left the field early in the second half clutching a shoulder. 7
Courtney Lawes
Another excellent effort. He has been one of England's great positives. Carried, tackled and ran the line out really well until late wobbles. 8
Tom Wood
He enjoyed another fine match to add to his autumn collection, with one tackle on Kieran read the highlight. 7
Chris Robshaw
His ugly, swollen eye told the story. His was another afternoon of courageous, unyielding work. He has had a very good autumn. 7
Billy Vunipola
A superb performance of powerful ball-carrying. Always willing to truck it up from the re-starts in what was probably his best performance for England. 8
Replacements: Ben Morgan stood out most with some of his influential carrying. England now have two excellent carrying eights. Tom Youngs' line-out throwing was not brilliant.
New Zealand
Israel Dagg
Not his most astonishing game but he was still safe and he put in Kieran Read for New Zealand's second try. 7
Charles Piutau
What a talent he is, always dangerous, always making yards and always looking for work. 8
Ben Smith
Nearly escaped once in the first half after collecting Dan Carter's delicate chip ahead but was not outstanding otherwise. 6
Ma'a Nonu
A quite brilliant pass out of the tackle to provide Savea with his second try. One superb kick early on. Experience showed when it mattered. 7
Julian Savea
Two tries and always a threat with his pace and power. Did exceptionally well to score the second try after Mike Brown's superb tackle. 9
Dan Carter
Lasted just 25 minutes on his 100th cap to be replaced by Aaron Cruden. Had shown some lovely touches and a variety of kicks up until then. 5
Aaron Smith
Quick service but kicked poorly, twice kicking straight out. Did not offer a threat in attack but made his share of tackles. 6
Tony Woodcock
Departed at half time with a hamstring injury to be replaced by Wyatt Crockett. It was a difficult afternoon for New Zealand at the scrummage. 5
Keven Mealamu
Not necessarily his most outstanding game but he made an awful lot of tackles and counter-rucked once superbly in the first half to win ball. 6
Owen Franks
Had made a brilliant break to start Kieran Read's first-half try and put in one huge hit on Mike Brown, but he also departed early in the second half. 6
Brodie Retallick
Made a superb pass to put Franks through in the first half for Read's try, but was not the influence that his partner Sam Whitelock was. 6
Samuel Whitelock
It was his 50th cap and he produced an astonishing work-rate in the loose, making 18 tackles. 8
Liam Messam
Did what a good blindside does, cleaned up at line outs, made his tackles and was always physical. 7
Richie McCaw
He was not man of the match, which is a novelty in itself, but he still made more tackles than anyone else and was always an influence. 7
Kieran Read
Brilliant hands for Savea's first try, and a try himself, but was also sin-binned. But there was still enough dexterity and class for it to palpably obvious why he is in line for the IRB player of the year award. 8
Replacements: Aaron Cruden is not Carter but he worked hard and certainly did not let his side down. In truth none of the others made an impact. New Zealand's star players were those who stayed on the field.

Personally I thought our second rows were outstanding...and gave me encouragement about going forward. Where previously I thought Attwood or someone was required I have had my mind changed.
Parling will struggle to get a starting spot if they keep that performance up and I think Attwood would be better off the bench than him aswell...

Sorry I read mike brown 8 and Dagg 7 and struggles
To take anything else seriously

I mean, really? I know you're All having a bromance and everything. But keep it in your pants, really.

No back bar Brown deserves higher than a 6.

I thought Dickson's pass was awful but he got stuck in, notable improvement with Youngs on.

I'd give Dickson & Farrell 6

Twelvetrees and Ashton 5

Foden and Tomkins 4

GloriousEmpire wrote:Sorry I read mike brown 8 and Dagg 7 and struggles
To take anything else seriously

I mean, really? I know you're All having a bromance and everything. But keep it in your pants, really.

Dagg didn't have his strongest game, pretty quiet for his standards.

I'd go with Dagg at 7 and Brown 8. Brown was the only back to outplay his opposite number though.

I wait and see what the Antipodean press say but so far pretty much every paper, blog and poster on every source I've seen appear go agree with my view. I also highlighted my own bias and I think backed up those scores with stats. Dagg was quiet

Good nice easy read chequered with quite a lot of info in there. Changed my mind from halfpenny to read as player of the year. Have not seen a player in the same calender year play with such a high level of consistency match in match out. Without read NZ would not be celebrating a now likely 100% record for the year such was his work rate and ability to be directly involved in so many tries. He did against england to every side he played this year.also chipped in as successful captain of the french series.
A player that has no bounds and a credit to the AB jersey.

Read has had an enormously good year.

ChequeredJersey wrote:I wait and see what the Antipodean press say but so far pretty much every paper, blog and poster on every source I've seen appear go agree with my view. I also highlighted my own bias and I think backed up those scores with stats. Dagg was quiet

Nothing wrong with that rating. Didn't notice dagg as much as I did brown who I'd never heard of before these AIs. Easily the best england back though that in itself isn't saying a lot. Didn't see a number against dozen chequered. Or might be me on my phone. Not an android fan.

F

Taylorman wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I wait and see what the Antipodean press say but so far pretty much every paper, blog and poster on every source I've seen appear go agree with my view. I also highlighted my own bias and I think backed up those scores with stats. Dagg was quiet

Nothing wrong with that rating. Didn't notice dagg as much as I did brown who I'd never heard of before these AIs. Easily the best england back though that in itself isn't saying a lot. Didn't see a number against foden chequered. Or might be me on my phone. Not an android fan.

Should read 5.5

But that is probably harsh considering he is out of position, maybe 6 is fairer

See...stupid fone. Foden became dozen. And now it became ' often'.
Foden has a lot to answer for! 

Perhaps 5 now for stuffing up my post. Spell checks gone for good.
Add those key backs to that side and Hansen gets something tangible to work with over the break.England is a real threat. Given both Ireland and France went close to taking a test or two england could go one or two further.we always start poorly in June as the weather plummets almost like clockwork on June 1st. We don't get the best use of the fast sxv grounds that we have in Feb to may.
England's pack come into it more because of that.

Slightly insane ratings that would lead you to believe we stuffed the All Blacks by Jones of the Times on Sunday:

England
15- Brown- 9/10!
14-Ashton- 5/10
13- Tomkins- 5/10
12- Twelvetrees- 6/10
11- Foden - 5/10
10- Farrell- 7/10
9- Dickson - 7/10
8- Vunipola - 9/10!!!
7- Robshaw - 7/10
6- Wood- 7/10
5- Lawes- 8/10
4- Launchbury - 7/10
3- Cole - 7/10
2- Hartley - 9/10!
1- Marler - 7/10

All Blacks

15- Dagg- 6/10!
14- Pitau- 7/10
13- Smith - 6/10
12- Nonu- 8/10
11- Savea - 9/10
10- Carter - 7/10
9- Smith - 6/10
8- Read - 7/10!!!
7- McCaw- 7/10
6- Messam - 7/10
5- Whitelock - 8/10
4- Retallick - 6/10
3- Franks- 6/10
2- Mealamu - 7/10
1- Woodcock - 7/10!

Ah, Stephen, you old dog you!

The England pack that started were excellent - and improving game by game. None more so than Billy V (7) who's looking like he'll soon eclipse Morgan by some distance, and Lawes (8) who must be impressing even his doubters.

How we stayed in the game with that backline of ours is one of the enigmas of test rugby. Farrell had a pretty decent game (6), Brown was excellent (7.5) and 12T is very slowly improving (but still only just ok - at least he shows some promise; 6). The rest aren't what we need.

The bench had some impact - all of it mediocre. T Youngs is not a test hooker (0.01) and should be advised to move to centre (where he might be better than Tomkins; 4) - never let him wear an England shirt again.

Slightly insane ratings that would lead you to believe we stuffed the All Blacks by Jones of the Times on Sunday:

Unless my maths has deceived me. Jones rates England substantially more than NZ. I would have hoped for those sort of stats, but I think he was watching the match on his Nokia 620 and not either live or on TV.

The only explanation for those scores.






Oh sorry, there is another one, he is a brainless idiot, I forget that.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Sorry I read mike brown 8 and Dagg 7 and struggles
To take anything else seriously

I mean, really? I know you're All having a bromance and everything. But keep it in your pants, really.

Dagg didn't have his strongest game, pretty quiet for his standards.

I'd go with Dagg at 7 and Brown 8. Brown was the only back to outplay his opposite number though.

Dagg set up a couple of the All Blacks tries whole brown was running around like a headless chook. It's not about what you're seen to be involved in, it's about what you actually achieve.

Actually we only just get more points by 1. But we lost by 8, so still odd...

Especially as 4 players got 9s, 3 were English and none were Read...

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Sorry I read mike brown 8 and Dagg 7 and struggles
To take anything else seriously

I mean, really? I know you're All having a bromance and everything. But keep it in your pants, really.

Dagg didn't have his strongest game, pretty quiet for his standards.

I'd go with Dagg at 7 and Brown 8. Brown was the only back to outplay his opposite number though.

Dagg set up a couple one of the All Blacks tries whole brown was running around like a headless chook making 3 try saving tackles. It's not about what you're seen to be involved in, it's about what you actually achieve.

Sorry, had to correct the falsehood in your post, it's marginally more useful now. I agree, but what you achieve is frequently through consistent contribution through the match like being the source of impetus for your team, making vital tackles, fielding and kicking better than your opposite number. You are entitled to your opinion, just don't be surprised if nobody else on the planet shares it with you

Also, don't state things that are demonstrably untrue please, it's easy to correct and unbecoming

The England pack that started were excellent - and improving game by game. None more so than Billy V (7) who's looking like he'll soon eclipse Morgan by some distance, and Lawes (8) who must be impressing even his doubters.

Barney, don't be quick to write off Morgan. He looked decent when he came on. If he can get some fitness back and get that Gloucester pack playing...he'll show what he can do. Im pleased we suddenly seem to have two potentially very good 8's competing now.

Taylorman wrote:Perhaps 5 now for stuffing up my post. Spell checks gone for good.
Add those key backs to that side and Hansen gets something tangible to work with over the break.England is a real threat. Given both Ireland and France went close to taking a test or two england could go one or two further.we always start poorly in June as the weather plummets almost like clockwork on June 1st. We don't get the best use of the fast sxv grounds that we have in Feb to may.
England's pack come into it more because of that.

Unfortunately TMan the NZ public may be shafted next year by Eng. Not on the pitch but before that.

England will be without key players for the first match as it's the Prem final the week before and as we'll probably take another match to bed those players back in only the third game will be a real contest no matter the weather.

These ratings are just a bit of nonsense really to fill in the pages the day after the match. It amuses me when people have fierce debates along the lines of 7! he at best was a 6! What does that actually mean?!

It's all very well to single out individuals and say whether they had good games or not, whether they contributed or made key errors, but putting an arbitrary rating out of 10 is about as useful as looking at the stats of players without watching the match.

That said, how the feck does Kieran Read only get 8?!!!  

Read did give the ball to the foward that fell over to score, and he did get yellowed after somehow England failed to get penalised holding onto the ball with Messam all over it. so by my maths...10-2 = 8!

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11158868

Quite close to mine

Ratts and you must have been watching the same game.

Chequeredjersey I would say you're ratings are very sensible. Agree with pretty much all that. You're one of the best posters on here in my opinion.

I thought before the game the midfield would be a problem area and so it proved.

Again England didn't properly utilise the back three. I blame both centres mostly for that. As you mention they just didn't pass the ball enough.

Foden and Ashton had very little to do.

NZ outshone England in 3 key players.

Read: MOM in my opinion, notwithstanding the yellow.
(Yellow: he seemed to come in from the side, over the top, and off his feet all in one seamless movement.

Nonu: THAT offload plus general quality all round (England badly need fit and talented centres. Manu & 12T can develop, Tomkins.. not even close)

Savea: Total class. (England wingers ? We had Ashton and some spare FB guy).

Those 3 key positions were the major separator.
Outside centre & Wings we were glaringly inadequate, although I would persevere with 12T, and wait for Manu.

Thought the stand out players were Read (who blotted his copy book slightly with the yellow), Savea, Hartley and Lawes. Much closer game that I thought thanks to a great forward game from the pack and I would have to argee with posters who game T Youngs about a 1 out of 10. Really struggled in lineout and failed to get a proper strike at the scrum.

Agree with Hartley Lawes and for that matter Launchberry.
In fact our whole pack edged theirs until Hartley went off.
But we were shown up at OC and Wing.

Tomkins / Ashton.
vs
Nonu / Savea.

Embarrassing comparison and we lost it right there IMHO.

Thought Ashton has an alright game my self. The only 'if only' for me was the loss of a stable lineout.

Gregortree I didn't realise that Nonu was playing at 13. Perhaps I missed that......

Beshocked, my comparison was a bit more general.

Compare / contrast the best two NZ 3/4
vs England's poorest two ...

the gap in quality is embarassing.

Thought Foden was worse than Ashton actually. Not that Ashton was good but Foden missed an important tackle on Read for the 2nd try. I know missed tackles only matter if they are from Ashton though.....

Thats not true Beshocked...Farrell and barritt aswell   

Ashton was ok, I thought Foden was poor, his defence was awful.

To be fair Barritt's defence isn't really questioned even if he does miss a tackle or two. Farrell hasn't been guilty for any tries conceded (I believe) so it's tough to pin blame on him for his defence.

No geordiefalcon it's just Ashton who has question marks if he misses a tackle. He does deserve criticism but plenty of players don't get criticism for missed tackles that lead to tries.

Sgt Pooly I agree about Foden but again it was the poisoned chalice. Full back stuck on the wing. Exposed defensely - where have I seen that before? 

Not much choice for Lancaster as Wade and Yarde were injured.

In attack yet again the back three weren't given much ball.

Good summary and some interesting stats there Chequered.

On the Dagg vs Brown debate I'm a big fan of both players but would agree Brown had the better day though each play very different roles in their side. Brown has been playing the fighting role often needing to provide a lone spark in our backline or clear up some poor defensive or kicking work with aplomb. The game on Saturday played too his strengths in that regard with some scrappy work from both sets of backs to be cleared up.

To see Dagg's class you just have to look at the way he came in at first receiver for Read's try though. Spots the space and lack of a FB to cover, screams for the ball, draws two men and throws the flat pace that puts Read through for a jog in. Makes it look so simple but it's the sort of chance that England frequently butcher through slow decision making or lack of precision. He's the best FB in the world for me and has joined the likes of McCaw and Read in that even on a comparatively quiet day he's still very good!

Brown was certainly busier than Dagg defensively. The highlights that stood out from him were when he pulled off a try saving tackle on Smith after a nice chip from Carter (I thought Smith looked too late after contact for a pass) and getting back in cover with Piutau bearing down on him and bravely claiming the ball and getting collected by Piutau which must have hurt. He returned the ball with interest from kicks and generally he has that Jason Robinson energy buzz aboiut him when he has the ball in hand (though not as fleet-footed as JR but stronger).

Attacking he didn't stand out as much which is a reflection on the English backline rather than him. The pleasing thing for me this year with Dagg is that he has created opportunities for others but often he has been the decisive player in creating that try. The second try is a good example of that as mentioned by kc.

Definitely Brown shone more that day but Dagg made a vital contribution. So did Nonu and Read but should that be refllected in the ratings. Brown and Lawes were my picks for England and Read and Savea for NZ. But like the player of the year awards certain players stand out more than others and this is usually reflected in the ratings as well with certain players on the day. It's very difficult to quantify a hooker or a prop in terms of their positive contribution. They normally get singled out for mistakes like Youngs.

kia - Against the strength of International defences now having someone such as Dagg who is capable of coming in at first receiver to is huge when attacking in the 22. It allows you to offer a threat each side of the ruck at all times which when combined with the effectiveness of the ABs wingers and strength of your forwards in the loose is lethal. With Dagg it's then made doubly dangerous due to the threat he offers himself through his pace, power and footwork. He's just as adept at making the break himself as he is at putting someone else through it.

Out of interest were he to get injured (no jinx intended here promise!) who would you look to as deputy?

The current AB squad has a fair few guys very capable of playing 15 such as Jane, Smith and Pitua but all are now competing for other positions primarily.

Ben Smith would be my pick and Conrad Smith to take up his old position. If Conrad wasn't playing then Piutau at fullback and Jane on the wing because Piutau has actually been playing Super rugby there and Jane has asked to play on the wing at the Hurricanes. Personally I think Ben Smith and his revelation season with the Highlanders would have him take the pick. Beauden Barrett can also play there but I much prefer him as cover for flyhalf.

When you consider the distinctly average or sub-par Super season Dagg had (not that much of a difference between him and Nonu!), it's testament to NZ management that they kept their faith in Dagg (and Nonu) and it has been repaid. I have a sneaking suspicion that if Rene Ranger had not gone to France, we could've had Ben Smith at fullback instead of the wing and Ranger on the wing or even at centre. His loss is compensated by the rise in form of Dagg.

Nonu has had that tendency of struggling through the S15 then turning it on for the ABs for a while now. Must be very frustrating for his coaches and fans domestically more than anything!

Prior to Ranger moving to France I must admit I was hoping to see him in the centres with Nonu and Smith remaining on the wing. I can understand why Smith is getting put in at centre as he has all the skills to replace Conrad in the long run but the below backline would have had some frightening attacking prospects!

9.Smith
10.Carter or Cruden
11.Savea
12.Nonu
13.Ranger
14.Smith
15.Dagg

It's one hell of a mix of power (Nonu, Ranger and Savea) then the guile of Carter/Crude, Smith and Dagg in around it.

The difference between NZ's backs and ours is quite frightening...which makes our close scoreline all the more impressive. It shows how good our forwards were on the day. I dont think they played as well v OZ or Argentina, but rose to the occasion.

But thats the difference with the AB's..they have players that have vision and the skills to put that vision in to action.

We have rumbling, ponderous, defensive guys who are so slow to react to situations by the time they wake up there are 3 opposition defenders all over him and the pack need to rescue it and start again...
We cant even pass that well...half the time its behind a player or to their feet. Only Twelvetrees in that whole backline is actually able to pass very well...and thats alarming.

GeordieFalcon wrote:The difference between NZ's backs and ours is quite frightening...which makes our close scoreline all the more impressive. It shows how good our forwards were on the day. I dont think they played as well v OZ or Argentina, but rose to the occasion.

But thats the difference with the AB's..they have players that have vision and the skills to put that vision in to action.

We have rumbling, ponderous, defensive guys who are so slow to react to situations by the time they wake up there are 3 opposition defenders all over him and the pack need to rescue it and start again...
We cant even pass that well...half the time its behind a player or to their feet. Only Twelvetrees in that whole backline is actually able to pass very well...and thats alarming.

Which is as good a reason as any as to why Wade should be there if fit.

Tend to agree . Back play in general the world over hasn't been a very high standard. ABs bat 3 deep in just about every position bar 12 and in 2015 get SBW back. I think with better handling nonu may go well with kirwans blues next year and Benji Marshall and ranger in the mix my give some fairly wide options in 14/15.

36 can step and go forward for a big guy and I'd like to see him at 10. A Farrell type 10 is always going to stifle back play at this level. Athletes are required these days. Pity Tuilagi wasn't there this series. He and 36 could do some real damage as a pair at 10/12 or 12/13.

I agree Wade needs to come in...he has got the skills required.

Taylorman, id like to see us persevere with Twelvetrees. He has progressed in the 3 games. A shocker v Oz, ok v Argentina, and showed quite a bit V AB's. Something to work on. I dont think bringing a totally defensive Barritt back in alongside Farrell is the way forward at all.

I also agree that him and Tuilagi could make a cracking pair...but as Tuilagi will probably miss the 6n aswell we need to identify the style of player we want at 13. A hard running monster...or a more skilful speedster.

Either way the guys who come in need to have a decent level of skills...passing, vision etc. Eastmond and Wade are two who have those skills.

And this brings in the other point...we have big powerhouses or small skilled guys...NZ have big powerhouse skilled guys!

Our big powerhouses have got by on being big powerhouses until they reach international level, that is pretty much our problem.

Our small skilled guys have had to be skilled to make it this far

In NZ it seems everyone is a big powerhouse, so they need skills to move forward!

BamBam wrote:Our big powerhouses have got by on being big powerhouses until they reach international level, that is pretty much our problem.

Our small skilled guys have had to be skilled to make it this far

In NZ it seems everyone is a big powerhouse, so they need skills to move forward!

It's probably partially due to the weight rather than age class system at school-boy level, which is so obvious it's utterly ludicrous that no other country seems to think it's a good idea

ChequeredJersey wrote:

BamBam wrote:Our big powerhouses have got by on being big powerhouses until they reach international level, that is pretty much our problem.

Our small skilled guys have had to be skilled to make it this far

In NZ it seems everyone is a big powerhouse, so they need skills to move forward!

It's probably partially due to the weight rather than age class system at school-boy level, which is so obvious it's utterly ludicrous that no other country seems to think it's a good idea

Its a brilliant idea but then they probably have more kids at NZ schools involved than we do. If you struggle to raise one decent schoolboy 15 at a school its going to be impossible to raise 2 or 3 at different sizes