Contrasting Attitudes Towards Coaches After Ireland vs Australia

It's fair to say that this year has been a roller coaster for McKenzie. Asked to come in after a Lions series defeat, nothing like an introduction to test rugby as a coach with home and away games to both NZ and SA and the set piece solidity of Argentina!

McKenzie forgave Cooper and reinstalled him as the Wallaby flyhalf. Furthermore, he made the inspired move on the European tour of making Cooper vice captain and look at how he has responded. Despite the convincing victories against Italy and Ireland, McKenzie is still getting grief over his first games. It seems the press and many fans have the attitude that it's all very well to beat the likes of Ireland, Argentina and Italy but McKenzie will be judged on the bigger games like England, SA and NZ. Is this justified and does it have to do with the fact that Deans had often the number two ranking based largely on their impressive record against SA? I admire the high expectations the Aussies put on their team given that apart from a few golden eras notably in the 90s they have tended to punch above their weight.

Contrast that with Schmidt. A big victory over Samoa certainly helps as an introduction to test rugby rather than Australia or NZ. Ireland looked very ordinary last weekend and although there was great frustration and disappointment over the Irish performance, patience on the whole was shown. Did the first up win help assuage opinion or does a game against a higher ranked team help soften opinion. Consider that performance in a 6N match, I think a lot less restraint would be shown. Do games against Australia and NZ make Irish expectations more realistic because my impression was that there was confidence among Irish fans thinking they were at home and had beaten Australia in their previous encounter? Yet when Australia soundly beat Ireland there didn't seem to be an outcry like there was in Australia over their RC and Englsnd performances. Is that in part explained that Schmidt has public confidence to turn around Ireland's fortunes given Ireland's 6n performance last year? Or are they being more realistic about a new coach taking over and recognize he needs time to impose his style on the team?

To me it seems McKenzie has it very tough and has an impossible task of pleasing the Aussie media or some fans. Will the same apply to Schmidt if results don't go his way or will the Irish be more measured in their criticism?

I think people recognise you don't go from being a poor side to a good one over night.

Everyone is bitterly disappointed with the level of performance Ireland brought to the table, but it's still very early in Schmidts tenure- too early to be over-critical.

Based on BOD's performance and quite probably his last game against NZ do you think there is pressure to drop him Notch or will Schmidt pick roughly the same squad and demand a better performance from everyone? I tend to think the latter but would there be an outcry if the former occurred? There was pressure to drop Carter and the little he played seemed he justified that faith although it was all too brief to extract too much from it.

Coaches have a bigger influence on teams' performances than we think.

If you just compare PDV and Heyneke Meyer and the two approaches taken by both coaches you can see some significant differences.

It is important to look at a variety of issues when looking at a coach.

Let me first admit, I was not convinced by the appointment of Heyneke Meyer, purely because I did not like the way he surrounded himself by Bulls staff and players in the beginning.

But let's look at how many players Meyer had introduced since his tenure started.

Marcell Coetzee
Juandré Kruger
Eben Etzebeth
Jacques Potgieter
Patric Cilliers
JJ Engelbrecht
Jano Vermaak
Johan Goosen
Duane Vermeulen
Frans Malherbe
Jaco Taute
Arno Botha
Willie le Roux
Jan Serfontein
Trevor Nyakane
Siya Kolisi
Piet van Zyl

Meyer has experimented quite heavily in the front row, with Trevor Nyakane, Dean Greyling, Werner Kruger, Coenie Oosthuizen, Frans Malherbe, Patrick Cilliers, Beast Mtwarira, Jannie du Plessis, Gurthro Steenkamp all getting an opportunity to show their potential, plus Lourens Adriaanse who is part of the group and will certainly get his opportunity at some point.

At Hooker, Meyer has mainly used Bismarck and Adriaan, but has given Schalk Brits another chance, but also have a few youngsters hanging around the squad to pick up experience.

At lock where we had some issues with Bakkies, Victor, Bekker, Rossouw all leaving, we have uncovered two very young locks in Eben and du Toit, with some senior players there to guide them, the experiment with Juandre Kruger have failed dramatically though.

In the backrow, Meyer has not been afraid as with the locks, to bring in young players, Kolisi, Coetzee and Arno Botha all being very young.

The downfall for Meyer is at nine. Insisting on playing Ruan Pienaar and Fourie du Preez and not giving enough opportunity to youngsters will come back to bite him.

At flyhalf he has given Lambie, Goosen and even Jantjies the opportunity.

In the centres Jean de Villiers and JJ Engelbrecht have been the first choice during the RC, with Jan Serfontein being a regular off the bench. With Jaque Fourie back in the picture I think the experience can only help the youngsters.

wing we do have  an issue, after Habana and JP we don't have much talent, that is where I believe JJ engelbrecht and Francois Hougaard can play a role as back up.

Willie Le Roux has been a revelation, even though Meyer struggled to let go of Kirchner.

With Frans Steyn, Paul Jordaan, Taute and Goosen still injured, they will make up for some lack of depth.

Compare this to PDV who barely brought through any player during his first years, wanting to change the game plan, but allowing player power to rule, he also kept the core of the 2007 world cup winning team by hook or by crook.

That said.

Meyer is relying too much on overseas players, but then he did manage to get the basics sorted in his first year, brought in a new bunch of youngsters, then was prepared to expand our game this year.

All whilst not losing too many games. (Only losses were to All Blacks and one vs Australia)

Most significantly he turned things around against Australia in an emphatic fashion.

I don't think that Schmidt will drop BOD Kia, after all it was he who convinced BOD to stay on. That has been Schmidt's biggest mistake so far as BOD is not playing well enough to help introduce younger players into the team.

I was one of those fans with high hopes on Saturday and honestly felt that with home ground advantage that Ireland would beat the Aussies in a tight match. Frankly, I still feel that the score flatters Ireland somewhat and believe that, without a radical turnaround, the AB's will slaughter Ireland next week. I am not looking forward to that, well I am but you know what I mean

Yes I don't think so either but he must be concerned. Ben Smith is not comfortable at 13 but he's got pace which BOD seems to be lacking.

I think Schmidt has to bite the bullet like Gatland did and move Brian O'Driscoll on, It will make him unpopular in Ireland for a short time, but it then gives Schmidt the opportunity not only try new players but it creates new options. As Bitlong points out Meyer has grown the squad by bringing in some excellant new talent, Hansen has played 42 different All Blacks this year.

Normally one player would not make that difference, but in the Irish case, he (BOD) has been elevated to the point where he is the team, and this O'Driscoll culture now stymies growth, options, adaptability to different styles of play etc etc.

You know, if Schmidt were to move BOD on, I don't think that it would make him unpopular myself. Most of us Irish fans recognise that BOD is past his best and is not performing internationally.

I also said before that I felt BOD was lucky to be in the Lions squad let alone play tests and that Gatland got the call right for the third test.

As a perfectionist, I can imagine that BOD is not happy with his last international games and would understand it should he be dropped. It happens to all the great players at some stage in their career.

Opinions regarding Schmidt will wait till the 6N.

The good things that will come out of the AIs are:
1 - A realization that it is time to move some old faces on who can no longer cut it
2 - That players good enough to succeed at Provincial level for Leinster are not necessarily good enough for International level and his selection needs to include more players from the other provinces

We will see - I remain hopeful Schmidt is an intelligent coach who will earn these lessos

You're basing that on the Lions tour? I don't think Schmidt will get heavy criticism if he drops BOD

a) BOD is not playing nearly as well as he was on the Lions tour
b) Schmidt will replace him with another Irish player as opposed to a Welshman
c) Schmidt is popular in Ireland, Gatland was already an exceptionally unpopular figure in Ireland before the Lions tour.

England is really the only country whose non-travelling fans embrace the Lions ethos. On tour, all the fans come together as one but back at home the Irish, Welsh and Scottish have a tendency to see it as a competition to get one of our own into the team over a rival nations player hence the Welsh crowing over the Davies selection and the Irish angst. No comparison when it comes to the national team.

Problem is, there is still no replacement who can make a big difference this week. For me, I will be far, far more annoyed if he chooses to drop Luke Marshall who actually looked promising at the weekend. O'Driscoll looks rusty, and thats not a surprise given that was basically his second game since the Lions. I would give him one last shot at the All Blacks with two young guys inside him and then assess where we go next after that.

I think one great asset to be an International manager is to have a ruthless streak.

As much as I respect what D'Arcy and BOD have done for Ireland in the past, its time to go. I do not believe in giving players 'Last Hurrahs' and that's what it would appear to me if D'Arcy and BOD play next weekend. I would not be so upset at loosing to the AB's if there was an eye on the future of Ireland than I would be if Ireland start players that can no longer cut it at this level.

Agree with Notch, I would be outraged if Marshall was dropped to the bench to accommodate D'Arcy.

What's wrong with Cave?

This deserves a thread of its own as it definitely merits discussion.

Should we keep playing BOD on the off chance that we beat the ABs or do we start building for the future.

IMO BOD doesnt even offer anything more than the likes of McFadden in the centre. He is falling off tackles (which he never used to do) probably becuase his shoulder is damaged and he is offering very little in attack apart from the odd brilliant flick on.

As Deccie did with ROG there is no place in international rugby for sentiment. We need to build for 6Ns and beyond so its time for the great man to retire. He wont and its a pity.

He will, either after the Six Nations or before if he's not selected for it.

Interesting observation Kia. I think Schmidt is very highly respected in Ireland given his achievements with Leinster so I think there is a level of patience amongst the media and supporters to give him a fair crack to turn things around.

The performance against Australia was unacceptable but Schmidt deserves a bit of a honeymoon period - probably until next Autumn to stamp his authority on things.

He's inherited a bit of mess - an aging team, players low on confidence, provincial rivalries, financial issues in the IRFU etc.

He needs to build a new team, with a new identity and it will take time and the IRFU aren't the most flexible bunch in terms of long term planning vs short term results.

Regarding BOD I wouldn't overplay his poor form - he was very poor two weeks running but the options to replace him are limited. There's no room for sentiment but to drop him for next weeks game would be a knee jerk reaction. If he can't find some big improvements I'd consider leaving him out of the 6N squad but he deserves another chance to show he can still cut it next week imo

I recall McCaw and Carter getting a bit of leeway recently so lets not make BOD out to be the only player who gets a bit of favouritism based on reputation.

There are limits though and another performance like that and the knives will start to come out for the great man I think....

We need to use the 6N to rebuild

BOD, D'Arcy, Reddan, DOC and Ross should not be part of that squad
The results wont be great but at least we can start to put in place the fundamentals required for the future

McKenzie has come down hard on JOC and now has suspended six players for breaking team protocol for drinking before the Ireland match: AAC, Cummins, Polota-Nau, Robinson, Gill and Ryan will serve it against Wales because the squad must contain 4 props.

There were also written sanctions and verbal warnings. Maybe this is why the fans are not so forgiving as these shenanigans are still going on and on a widespread basis. Link has made the right move with this tough love as the message is obviously not getting through.

I'd rather the players went on the sauce and showed a bit of fight on the field than running around sipping mineral water and green tea and rolling over.

True rodders but what happens when they're on the sauce and play rubbish?