Household debt is soaring !!! 3.9 million families in debt......

First topic message reminder :

The centre for social justice has published a report showing 3.9 million families do not have enough savings to cover the rent or mortgage...

Personal debt in the UK is approaching 1.4 trillion.......

Falling incomes and rising costs are meaning more families are falling into debt..

Surely "Austerity" should be aimed at reducing household debt not increasing it ???

Or are we stuck with guys that want to be PM and Chancellor but don't want to do the job............No ideology whatsoever.......Thatcher love her or hate her had a plan !!!

On a side note.........If you take out Inflation Osbourne has borrowed more in 4 years than Labour did in 13..........

SOURCE - Political betting................

TopHat24/7 wrote:Great to see you back on the board Gentleman, even if you do always seem to come on specifically to hand me my backside!

Merely a coincidence, TH, I assure you...  

Although, I don't remember having ever successfully handed you anything!

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

Gentleman01 wrote:


What is clear is that, for decades now, people have simply not wanted left-leaning, social democratic parties in power.

Or they have been persuaded that they don't through incessant propaganda in the largely right-wing media?

It's the same difference, in my opinion Hoggy.

For whatever reason, liberal economic policies have been preferred to state run / regulated / planned economic policies over the past few decades.

Also, I am a bit sceptical of the extent to which the media is said to be able to dictate public opinion. I remember reading something fairly detailed on this a few years ago, which basically argued that mainstream media outlets routinely have editorial lines which run counter to public opinion. One of the specific examples given, which sticks in the memory, was the Vietnam war in America. The popular American newspapers of the day were generally supportive of the war despite the hugely negative, ant-war opinion of the populace. Off the top of my head, I recall all Murdoch press, including The Sun (the most widely read British newspaper in 2003) having a strongly pro-Iraq war editorial line despite popular anti-war opinion polls.

It's an interesting topic though, I agree that media bias is almost certainly a factor in dictating public political opinion, I'm just not sure exactly how much of a factor.

Also, I should qualify my original statement. I am really referring to the late 80's / early 90's as the date from which left-leaning politics fell dramatically out of fashion. Obviously, the SDP Liberal alliance polled rather well in the early 80's. In fact, I think both Labour and the SDP were ahead of the Conservatives in the polls prior to the Falklands war (although I could well be wrong here).

Gentleman01 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Great to see you back on the board Gentleman, even if you do always seem to come on specifically to hand me my backside!

Merely a coincidence, TH, I assure you...  

Although, I don't remember having ever successfully handed you anything!

Success is subjective I guess, but I've always felt on a loosing streak!!

Still, always nice to have well reasoned balance in the face this board's otherwise general left leaning (or left falling-clean-over-yourself, in the case of Hoggy etc).

Gentleman01 wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

Gentleman01 wrote:


What is clear is that, for decades now, people have simply not wanted left-leaning, social democratic parties in power.

Or they have been persuaded that they don't through incessant propaganda in the largely right-wing media?

It's the same difference, in my opinion Hoggy.

For whatever reason, liberal economic policies have been preferred to state run / regulated / planned economic policies over the past few decades.

Only need to look at France to see how socialist economic policies when trying to exit a depression work out. France's economic activity figures have just been published and dipped into contraction territory again (48/100 [sub-50 meaning contraction]) and the country is expected to fall back into recession with next quarters GDP figures come out (rates have been falling all year). By comparison Britain's just came out at 60/100 following the highest GDP growth rate since 2008.

Household debt is soaring !!! 3.9 million families in debt......
May I suggest shoping at Aldi?

Quite apart from the cost of your weekly shop being vastly reduced, as they only stock a limited number of lines (2 types of pasta sauce as opposed to upwards of 15 in places like ASDA) the benefits are two-fold....

Firstly, you aren't wandering around buying things that take your fancy but you don't actually need and secondly (or most importanly as I like to call it) as there's a limited range, you can be done and dusted within 20 minutes as opposed to wandering around for two frickin' hours whilst your other half debates the merits of 8 smallish chicken legs as opposed to 6 slightly bigger ones.

"Who cares, it's for a barbeque, no-one's going to eat them after I'm done with 'em!"

DAVE667 wrote:Household debt is soaring !!! 3.9 million families in debt......
May I suggest shoping at Aldi?

Tut tut tut, Dave. Personal fiscal responsibility is a dirty word (phrase) around here.....  

TopHat24/7 wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Household debt is soaring !!! 3.9 million families in debt......
May I suggest shoping at Aldi?

Tut tut tut, Dave. Personal fiscal responsibility is a dirty word (phrase) around here.....  

Only a deluded nutter would think all debt problems can be solved by just budgeting your money better.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Household debt is soaring !!! 3.9 million families in debt......
May I suggest shoping at Aldi?

Tut tut tut, Dave. Personal fiscal responsibility is a dirty word (phrase) around here.....  

Only a deluded nutter would think all debt problems can be solved by just budgeting your money better.

As opposed to the rational ones?

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Household debt is soaring !!! 3.9 million families in debt......
May I suggest shoping at Aldi?

Tut tut tut, Dave. Personal fiscal responsibility is a dirty word (phrase) around here.....  

Only a deluded nutter would think all debt problems can be solved by just budgeting your money better.

Not solved, but prevented in the first place.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Household debt is soaring !!! 3.9 million families in debt......
May I suggest shoping at Aldi?

Tut tut tut, Dave. Personal fiscal responsibility is a dirty word (phrase) around here.....  

Only a deluded nutter would think all debt problems can be solved by just budgeting your money better.

Not solved, but prevented in the first place.

When your income is less than your expenditure that forces people into debt. When your expenditure is on products and services that are vital to survive you can't really tell them to budget better eg paying rent, council tax, food, gas/electricity, water bills, travel to work, clothes, baby products.

A lot of the time people get into debt due to an unforseen circumstance such as the washing machine breaking, getting a parking ticket or speeding ticket, the bed breaking, having a baby, suffering an injury and thus you take time off work and get less income. When you are living on the poverty line any reduction in income can leave that person in a horrible position where the only option is a quick loan etc

And the excuse train rolls on...............choo choo!!

TopHat24/7 wrote:And the excuse chain rolls on...............choo choo!!

Pulling out of the station right behind the empathy train.

TopHat24/7 wrote:And the excuse chain rolls on...............choo choo!!

take that as acceptance that I am right

Empathy goes where it's due, which is rarely the station of irresponsibility.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:And the excuse chain rolls on...............choo choo!!

take that as acceptance that I am right

Tbh, you make up interpretations of what's actually said so often you may as well bank anything you want as a 'win'.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:And the excuse chain rolls on...............choo choo!!

take that as acceptance that I am right

Tbh, you make up interpretations of what's actually said so often you may as well bank anything you want as a 'win'.

So lets see, you are saying all debt is caused by irresponsible spending where people are spending beyond their means on luxury items. I am saying that not every debt case is like that and in a lot of cases debt is caused because people's income is so low that in order to buy necessary items such as rent or food or heating or travel costs to work etc the person is forced into getting loans to cover these costs. A lot of debt is caused because people who have young childen are forced to heat their homes in the winter and the gas/electricity bills are massive and a loan is required to pay it off.

I am also saying debt can be caused in a lot of cases by unforseen circumstances such as a partner dying whose income was paying the bills, a new baby being born, cooker breaking, losing a job but still having to pay bills because of the contract etc.

I wonder whose argument is more truthful and is a better representation of reality mine or yours..... 

Circumstances change...........People lose jobs....Cars breakdown...People get divorced....

Only moronic twits would say that all debt is caused by budget mismanagement...

But then there are a lot of twits around it seems.

Never said it was an exclusive explanation, but only a 'moronic twit' and/or 'deluded nutter' would suggest it wasn't a contributory factor.

Nice to see the Bromance rekindled though, thought John>PBF was gonna kill it.....

French Prime minister is a socialist??.........People voted for Obamacare last time out in 2012.......

Very clear..........people don't want left leaning.......  

Rowley wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:And the excuse chain rolls on...............choo choo!!

Pulling out of the station right behind the empathy train.

Feel free to leap onto the indifference replacement bus then you can jump on the apathy bandwagon

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:French Prime minister is a socialist??.........People voted for Obamacare last time out in 2012.......

Very clear..........people don't want left leaning.......  

Didn't realise Gentleman was commenting on global politics........

Plus, Obama's democrats are only 'left' from a US point of view, like 'New Labour' which is not what Gman was referring to.

DAVE667 wrote:

Rowley wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:And the excuse chain rolls on...............choo choo!!

Pulling out of the station right behind the empathy train.

Feel free to leap onto the indifference replacement bus then you can jump on the apathy bandwagon

Obama is the US president by the way.........If you want to join in the debate look him up !!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

Rowley wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:And the excuse chain rolls on...............choo choo!!

Pulling out of the station right behind the empathy train.

Feel free to leap onto the indifference replacement bus then you can jump on the apathy bandwagon

Obama is the US president by the way.........If you want to join in the debate look him up !!

He's done well for himself since faking his own death at the hand of the Navy Seals and being buried at sea then? Shows what you can achieve if you put a little effort in.

Anyway, whilst I'm sympathetic to the plight of others dear fellow I'm feeling the pinch myself at the minute (sounds like Friday night at the Oyster) and all I can do to salve my conscience to donate a few tins to our church's food bank. I see myself as neither part of the solution or part of the problem.

Didn't buy a house that I can't afford, don't drive a car that I can't afford, don't have lavish holidays on the never-never. My main expenditure is my daughter's nursey fee's and whilst not crippling, I'd love to have that money going off my mortgage instead. However it's my choice to have her at Nursery and yes, we've worked out that we'd be better off finacially if my wife gave up work and became a stay at home Mum but that stupid notion of civic pride means we want to get out there and contribute to society and try help provide for those worse off than ourselves.

It may prove to be a foolhardy notion in a few years time but for now, we do it willingly.

I did some work at the priory years ago and there were people who were in debt trying to get their kids (addicts) help.........

In debt because they were trying to pay mortgages for people who couildn't look after themselves and had kids.......

Sometimes a partner leaves for someone else and the person left behind has to go to a loan company...........There is a whole host of reasons people find themselves in debt..

best to remember things like that.......

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I did some work at the priory years ago and there were people who were in debt trying to get their kids (addicts) help.........

In debt because they were trying to pay mortgages for people who couildn't look after themselves and had kids.......

Sometimes a partner leaves for someone else and the person left behind has to go to a loan company...........There is a whole host of reasons people find themselves in debt..

best to remember things like that.......

Joanne finally had enough of you, eh? Still that loan will come in handy for converting the spare bedroom into a roller disco.

For every person finding themselves in debt through no fault of their own there are those (and I know them personally) who are in debt because even as adults, they think money f*****g grows on trees. Got one partner working every hour that God sends to pay of credit card bills and then as soon as it's done they other half is applying for another one and booking a £6k holiday to Disneyland.

Not much point in lumping everyone in the same boat..Then is it !!

Equally little point in excusing everyone in one fell swoop...

Wasn't aware I had lumped every in the same boat...but then again, I barely pay attention at the best of times so if anyone manages to figure out what I've actually said, feel free to let me know.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Equally little point in excusing everyone in one fell swoop...

Absolutely..............

Having just read the OP again, is there any more detail on what this means (I haven't dug up the research):

do not have enough savings to cover the rent or mortgage

I.e., who does? if you had savings to cover your entire mortgage you wouldn't have one, you'd just buy the property outright. Similar with rent, you'd just pay it all upfront for a discount.

So if not the whole (as that would seem spurious to suggest) then over what period? Unable to cover 1 month's? 6 months'?

I wondered that when I first read it too TopHat.

I was also mildly amused by a couple of Champagne Socialists "unforeseen circumstances". Having a baby? Did the stork drop it off or something?

Getting a parking ticket or a speeding fine? I'd have thought if you park illegally or drive faster than the speed limit then they were entirely foreseeable circumstances.

Hibbz wrote:I wondered that when I first read it too TopHat.

I was also mildly amused by a couple of Champagne Socialists "unforeseen circumstances". Having a baby? Did the stork drop it off or something?

Getting a parking ticket or a speeding fine? I'd have thought if you park illegally or drive faster than the speed limit then they were entirely foreseeable circumstances.

I drive but I don't expect a ticket tomorrow, if I speed I still don't expect a ticket but that speed camera that is hiding behind the trees flashes me.

Of course a baby is unexpected for some people who are not planning it. buying baby things happens when you find out the woman is pregnant, not when the baby is born.

'unexpected' but with a 9 month lead in.....

"It's a baby!"
"Is it? Blimey, I've been wondering what that strange lump was!"

"And what's that letter that's just dropped through the door?"

"Oh, remember when you were driving at 50mph down a bus lane the other week?"

"Yep, KFC was about to close."

"Well, this is a few hundred quid's worth of fines and penalty points as a result."

"Darn, did NOT see that coming....."

"Remeber that cruise we took?"
"Yeah, six months sailing around the Med...beautiful wasn't it?"
"Well, this might come as a bit of a shock but it wasn't free!"
"I know, we didn't enter any competitions, we stuck it on the Ceredit card"
"Yeah, but it turns out that we still have to pay the credit card bill"
"What bill?"
"When we put stuff on the credit card, we don't NOT have to pay for it ever, we only put off paying for it for a bit!"
"What?"
"I know, I know. Sounds like crazy talk but it's true. Apparently, we have to pay for the cruise and the big telly and all those dresses I bought"
"What dresses?
"Never mind that now, I'm talking about the cruise."
"You wore new dresses on that cruise"
"Will you forget about the dresses and concentrate?"
"So when do we pay back the fifteen grand"
"You mean the twenty three grand?"
"TWENTY THREE GRAND?!?!?! How expensive were those dresses?"
"Will you stop going on about the dresses? The extra eight grand is interest on the fifteen grand we spent on the Cruise."
"I can't believe it, for eight grand we could go to Disneyland , Florida!"
"I know, let's get some brochures and book it. We could put it one the credit card...we could pay for it later!"

Apparently that doesn't actually happen Dave, just a figment of our cruel and unfair imaginations.....

I fully agree Toppy and am considering deleting that post for fear of causing unnecessary upset to the thousands of people who feel they should be able to spend money like it's tap water without fear of repercussions or having to consider the possibility that they might be stupid selfish a-holes.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:French Prime minister is a socialist??.........People voted for Obamacare last time out in 2012.......

Very clear..........people don't want left leaning.......  

I was referring specifically to the U.K. - South American countries routinely vote for left-leaning political parties

However, it is interesting you've cited Obama as an example of a left-leaning government. The U.K. had a New Labour Government for 13 years, however I explicitly mentioned that I do not consider New Labour a left-leaning social democratic party. The Democrats are in the same vein. In fact, it is widely acknowledged that the 'progressive', 'third way' political policies pursued by Blair were directly inspired by Clinton.

If there is one advanced capitalist country in which small-state, free-market, anti-socialist rhetoric has huge currency, it is the USA.

The debate surrounding personal fiscal responsibility, and the extent to which it is a factor in the creation of household debt is an interesting one.

Obviously, if families spend less then they will create less debt. However, it ignores a number of factors.

Minor adjustments in interest rates often cause huge fluctuation in levels of debt, for obvious reasons. Even a modest rise in rates can account for a vast increase in national levels of debt.
Rising costs of living are also obviously a factor when salaries / wages do not rise in-line with those increasing costs. The same is true when salaries / wages do not rise in-line with inflation. All of the above have happened and are also certainly major factors.

I appreciate DAVE was being facetious, however it is patently ridiculous to suggest that 3.9 million families are in debt because they spent all their money on cruises and living a flashy lifestyle.

As an aside, it is interesting to note the contradictory nature of the debate surrounding GDP and household debt. It tends to be the same people who chastise others for overspending, who also place such high stock in national GDP figures. However, it is obvious that the two are not independent of one another. GDP rises, as a rule, when people spend money. If people have no money to spend then they must either, borrow it, and so increase GDP growth. Or not spend, in which case GDP growth will begin to slow and eventually contract.

To simplify, the options are;

a.) Low wages, high debt, increase in GDP
b.) Low wages, low debt, poor GDP growth / recession

When real wages stagnate, but the cost of living increases, debt is the only way to maintain economic growth. That is why they call it a debt bubble, it is where the term comes from. Sustainable growth is achieved only when the populous have money to spend on commodities without going in to debt. If workers were paid more, and were rewarded with an equitable share of the profits that they themselves help to create, then GDP can grow without the need for debt.

However, it is obviously, very difficult to persuade Capitalists to pay their workers more, and herein lies the fundamental problem.

Gentleman01 wrote:
I appreciate DAVE was being facetious, however it is patently ridiculous to suggest that 3.9 million families are in debt because they spent all their money on cruises and living a flashy lifestyle.

The problem with that statistic though, as I have tried to point out/query, is that it is relatively meaningless without further explanation as to how the figure was arrived at.

As, as I mentioned, the choice of words used suggest it is entirely spurious - who the heck has savings to cover £100-200k of mortgage and, if they do, why don't they just pay the mortgage off? If it only means payments ON the mortgage then how many? And for how long?

I probably couldn't get by more than 2 months of rent + bills based on my (liquid) savings, just this mean I'm lumped into the 3.9m statistic? Because that seems a little absurd if so, I'm hardly a picture of financial fragility.

TopHat24/7 wrote:I'm hardly a picture of financial fragility.

Only because Greggs do not offer credit.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Gentleman01 wrote:
I appreciate DAVE was being facetious, however it is patently ridiculous to suggest that 3.9 million families are in debt because they spent all their money on cruises and living a flashy lifestyle.

The problem with that statistic though, as I have tried to point out/query, is that it is relatively meaningless without further explanation as to how the figure was arrived at.

As, as I mentioned, the choice of words used suggest it is entirely spurious - who the heck has savings to cover £100-200k of mortgage and, if they do, why don't they just pay the mortgage off? If it only means payments ON the mortgage then how many? And for how long?

I probably couldn't get by more than 2 months of rent + bills based on my (liquid) savings, just this mean I'm lumped into the 3.9m statistic? Because that seems a little absurd if so, I'm hardly a picture of financial fragility.

A very good point. How much debt is considered unmanageable and a genuine burden?

I haven't read this study in detail, so can't answer it. I expect, keeping in mind where the study came from, the definition of debt is fairly broad. Although, I've no doubt that household debt is a serious problem for many.

Rowley wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:I'm hardly a picture of financial fragility.

Only because Greggs do not offer credit.

Maybe, but Dominos bringing out a mobile app hasn't helped.....

Rowley wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:I'm hardly a picture of financial fragility.

Only because Greggs do not offer credit.

I sense a great regret behnd that statement rowley

ShahenshahG wrote:

Rowley wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:I'm hardly a picture of financial fragility.

Only because Greggs do not offer credit.

I sense a great regret behnd that statement rowley

Whereas as I sense a business opportunity...

DAVE667 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

Rowley wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:I'm hardly a picture of financial fragility.

Only because Greggs do not offer credit.

I sense a great regret behnd that statement rowley

Whereas as I sense a business opportunity...

And I sense a great source of amusement - watching two yorkshiremen attempt to spend money for the first time

Rowley just likes the fact there's finally someone fatter than him on these boards so he can send abuse the other way for once....

ShahenshahG wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

Rowley wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:I'm hardly a picture of financial fragility.

Only because Greggs do not offer credit.

I sense a great regret behnd that statement rowley

Whereas as I sense a business opportunity...

And I sense a great source of amusement - watching two yorkshiremen attempt to spend money for the first time

   

ShahenshahG wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

Rowley wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:I'm hardly a picture of financial fragility.

Only because Greggs do not offer credit.

I sense a great regret behnd that statement rowley

Whereas as I sense a business opportunity...

And I sense a great source of amusement - watching two yorkshiremen attempt to spend money for the first time

You have a credit system at Greggs and people will automatically think it's "free food" cos they don't have to hand over any money (see my true story/flagrant disregard for the true crux of the matter re cruise ships and dresses)