Will the last player to leave Welsh rugby please turn off the light...

... Hibbard now... its about time the WRU stepped in with central contracts or there will be no one left to centrally contract...

If we want the game in Wales to survive, we have to act now and enforce an international ban on players outside of Wales, as do the All Blacks.

I line must be drawn NOW for those already contracted outside of Wales, as not much we can do there, as I doubt the WRU could afford to buy them out of their contracts, but we have to rigoursly enforce the rule going forward so that all the players know exactly where they stand.

At this rate, the Regions wont have to worry about releasing players for the notorious WRU 4th AI, as there wont be any regional players in the Welsh fist XV.

The Regions dont have issues as such because they are financially compensated but it does affect their HC preparations.

The difference between NZ and Wales enforcing this ban is NZ have a much larger talent pool to choose from. If we had enough quality players I would suggest the same thing but at present we wouldn't be able to sustain the loss. I actually think in some cases players better themselves by playing in other leagues. I'm not advocating they all run off to France and England but if we only lose about 30% of our national players that's not too bad IMO. The WRU need to offer a better package to the regions for holding on to current internationals because at the moment it is crippling them financially.

I do think its more of a concern when young players like North, Davies and when players like Matthew Morgan and Steffan Jones have been linked with moves.

If shall we say more established (older) players are going as a bit of nest egg then good luck to them.

Matthew Morgan is linked with Saints and Tigers, isn't he?

Can't see tigers as they have Owen Williams, but saints maybe.

The WRU wont do anything.

They want the region to become nurseries for bringing through talent.

They want that talent to be paid/insured by other leagues and clubs.

They want those players to have full release written into their contracts with said clubs to enable them to play internationally (see North), which is where the WRU make the majoirty of their cash from.

Plan 'Team Wales' is in affect, its all about the benjamins.

And there was us Dragons fans thinking we were going to be converted into the development region when all along Mr Dodger was creating 4 development regions! Very clever Mr Lewis...very clever.

Seems difficult to gage what plan the WRU and the regions are hatching. The regions seem to be almost letting players go now as a statement. Hibbard is now the next one being released early from his contract. There's never a dull moment in welsh rugby is there...

it doesnt rain here, it pours  

Not sure central contracting will stop the bleed of players.

How many players can the WRU contract centrally before their funds run out?

Its a disaster for Wales. There are positives but in the short to medium term its not looking good. Whatever about backs, its worse to lose forwards because they won't turn up or Wales in top condition and they'll be overplayed.

Years ago, the Welsh league was as good if not better than the English or French leagues but it all got ditched for four teams chasing euro glory.

Welsh Rugby is now reaping the whirlwind and sad to see. If the domestic game is no longer financially competitive then the best players will go where the best competition and money is. The fans in Wales have not been treated with respect and they have voted with their feet compounding the financial downward spiral.

Recwatcher wrote:Years ago, the Welsh league was as good if not better than the English or French leagues but it all got ditched for four teams chasing euro glory.

Welsh Rugby is now reaping the whirlwind and sad to see. If the domestic game is no longer financially competitive then the best players will go where the best competition and money is. The fans in Wales have not been treated with respect and they have voted with their feet compounding the financial downward spiral.

You've missed out the crucial era in between where the Welsh league was pants and, due to the number of clubs in the league, teams had to put out sides where every other player (or more) was essentially semi-pro standard player in a fully pro contract. That's where the humpings started in Europe. Since we went to 4 regions and concentrated the talent into less teams the European beatings have been less and in some cases the clubs have been winning matches that their former club sides would have lost heavily.

That's what led to the change - the inability to support/sustain 10-12 fully pro clubs that would be able to compete. We were handing out pro contracts to any Tom, Dick or harry just to make up the numbers. That had to change.

Biltong wrote:Not sure central contracting will stop the bleed of players.

How many players can the WRU contract centrally before their funds run out?

This is a crucial point.  The WRU has offered the regions an extra £1m between them to help keep players in Wales.  However, as Kingsley Jones pointed out on Scrum V the other night in order to keep players here (i.e. offer them something more attractive than the offers from France) then we're starting to look towards the £0.5m mark per season.  How can the WRU centrally contract a squad of players on that amount?  Even if it was only 20 players then that's £10m per year, which is significantly over the amount they already fund the regions.

I can't see how they'll centrally contract the players at all.

With English clubs being out of the HC next year does any welsh fans have any concerns about their players in the AP not playing 1st class European club rugby in a world cup year???

I don't think any of our players have ever played first class European rugby to be honest Fa! It's always substandard from us!

Whats the big issue with players leaving for France, England etc anyhow?

Is it having a detrimental impact on the national game? Doesn't look like it to me.
When they fielded all their top players in Wales they were still unable to qualify for the KO stages in the HC with any frequency. Whats the difference from then to now?

Now at least say 15 players are now in foreign leagues... thats 15 more places for players to get top level experience... and given 3 of 4 are still competitive its not like they're just getting thumped by everyone.

The cost of say Richard Hibbards contract was say 150k to his club and the union (total guess). By 1 player moving out of the system it frees up money for say 5 more professional players. 5 more are able to train like professionals rather than working in a sports shop/gym/bar/cafe when they play in the minor leagues in Wales.

Griff wrote:I don't think any of our players have ever played first class European rugby to be honest Fa!  It's always substandard from us!

Didn't Cardiff beat the European champions a few months ago... and the Scarlets put Quins to the sword away from home???

Get a sense of humour Fa. FFS.

Griff, I understand your point but you missed mine. Everyone constantly refers to competition from a euro perspective but the bread and butter financials are from domestic competition. Everyone says that it would have been unaffordable, which the Unions spin at every opportunity but who actually knows if outside interests had been allowed to come in??

The R12 has not been a financial success as it has not excited the fans and has led to an over reliance on the HC and hence all the shenanigans over the last twelve plus months on that front.

Wales are currently a curious half way house between a club structure and a centrally controlled Union structure and the best of both worlds doesn't appear to have worked.

Lack of euro success hasn't done Wales or England any harm recently has it.

Griff wrote:

Biltong wrote:Not sure central contracting will stop the bleed of players.

How many players can the WRU contract centrally before their funds run out?

This is a crucial point.  The WRU has offered the regions an extra £1m between them to help keep players in Wales.  However, as Kingsley Jones pointed out on Scrum V the other night in order to keep players here (i.e. offer them something more attractive than the offers from France) then we're starting to look towards the £0.5m mark per season.  How can the WRU centrally contract a squad of players on that amount?  Even if it was only 20 players then that's £10m per year, which is significantly over the amount they already fund the regions.

I can't see how they'll centrally contract the players at all.

The WRU could afford some, but not all....

'We won't bankrupt WRU' over salaries, says David Pickering
Chairman David Pickering says he is not prepared to "bankrupt" the Welsh Rugby Union to keep top players in Wales.
The WRU has offered to centrally contract the "entire international squad of players within Wales".
But Pickering says the salaries on those contracts would not compete with those offered by French clubs......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22542332

Recwatcher wrote:Griff, I understand your point but you missed mine. Everyone constantly refers to competition from a euro perspective but the bread and butter financials are from domestic competition.  Everyone says that it would have been unaffordable,  which the Unions spin at every opportunity but who actually knows if outside interests had been allowed to come in??

The R12 has not been a financial success as it has not excited the fans and has led to an over reliance on the HC and hence all the shenanigans over the last twelve plus months on that front.

Wales are currently a curious half way house between a club structure and a centrally controlled Union structure and the best of both worlds doesn't appear to have worked.

Lack of euro success hasn't done Wales or England any harm recently has it.

True. But we need to keep the best players here to get the sport development angle too. Kids don't want to go and watch players they've never heard of and/or kids playing against men, so numbers dwindle and people don't pick up a rugby ball. A bit over simplistic maybe, but I can't see that clubs shorn of all of their star attractions will be good for the game. Also, people already complain about playing the likes of Zebre in Europe - well there'll be 3 more Zebre-esque teams from Wales in there if their best players leave and the academy boys are elevated to match day squads. Not good for European rugby either.

The bit I've bolded above: You're right, fans haven't taken to it. But look at Welsh club attendances before the regions. Not much difference at all. So that didn't really grab the attention either, unfortunately.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

Biltong wrote:Not sure central contracting will stop the bleed of players.

How many players can the WRU contract centrally before their funds run out?

This is a crucial point.  The WRU has offered the regions an extra £1m between them to help keep players in Wales.  However, as Kingsley Jones pointed out on Scrum V the other night in order to keep players here (i.e. offer them something more attractive than the offers from France) then we're starting to look towards the £0.5m mark per season.  How can the WRU centrally contract a squad of players on that amount?  Even if it was only 20 players then that's £10m per year, which is significantly over the amount they already fund the regions.

I can't see how they'll centrally contract the players at all.

The WRU could afford some, but not all....

'We won't bankrupt WRU' over salaries, says David Pickering
Chairman David Pickering says he is not prepared to "bankrupt" the Welsh Rugby Union to keep top players in Wales.
The WRU has offered to centrally contract the "entire international squad of players within Wales".
But Pickering says the salaries on those contracts would not compete with those offered by French clubs......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22542332

So they'd offer yet another 'half-way house', just like the half-way house they left us in the form of the clubs/regions that they didn't have the balls to set up properly in the first place. I can see it now - 5 central contracts to tide the 4 regions over. Keep 1 or two of your best players in Wales. That'll do it!

Griff wrote:Get a sense of humour Fa.  FFS.

Ah it was a joke.... so this means this entire topic is a joke then?

Jokes aside, if you asked most people here in SA what level they thought European rugby on a whole was on they'd probably say... "Vodacom Cup".

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

Biltong wrote:Not sure central contracting will stop the bleed of players.

How many players can the WRU contract centrally before their funds run out?

This is a crucial point.  The WRU has offered the regions an extra £1m between them to help keep players in Wales.  However, as Kingsley Jones pointed out on Scrum V the other night in order to keep players here (i.e. offer them something more attractive than the offers from France) then we're starting to look towards the £0.5m mark per season.  How can the WRU centrally contract a squad of players on that amount?  Even if it was only 20 players then that's £10m per year, which is significantly over the amount they already fund the regions.

I can't see how they'll centrally contract the players at all.

The WRU could afford some, but not all....

'We won't bankrupt WRU' over salaries, says David Pickering
Chairman David Pickering says he is not prepared to "bankrupt" the Welsh Rugby Union to keep top players in Wales.
The WRU has offered to centrally contract the "entire international squad of players within Wales".
But Pickering says the salaries on those contracts would not compete with those offered by French clubs......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22542332

So they'd offer yet another 'half-way house', just like the half-way house they left us in the form of the clubs/regions that they didn't have the balls to set up properly in the first place.  I can see it now - 5 central contracts to tide the 4 regions over.  Keep 1 or two of your best players in Wales.  That'll do it!

If you notice Pickering said this after Dodger's infamous "Welsh Rugby Union says Wales' regions 'reject' central contracts"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20001262

plus this is amusing;

"The recent debate, if you can call it that, about player salaries and soundbite solutions has been untimely, misinformed and damaging," Lewis added.

Meh!

The WRU at the advent of the professional era took a short cut enticed with the prospect of greater control over players that they could not afford to fund.

The longer term view would have been to plough resources into coaching and bringing in outside expertise in any number of disciplines to share the load and develop a domestic league worthy of the Welsh game. If over the long term it didn't work then you would turn to an elitist approach of four or five teams and pack your test players into those teams for a cross border competition.

The opportunity was lost.

fa0019 wrote:

Griff wrote:Get a sense of humour Fa.  FFS.

Ah it was a joke.... so this means this entire topic is a joke then?

Jokes aside, if you asked most people here in SA what level they thought European rugby on a whole was on they'd probably say... "Vodacom Cup".

Eh?! I made a self deprecating joke that our players are rubbish in Europe (which they have been). Not sure how that makes the whole thread a joke?

Not sure what your last line is about either? Asking people in Wales what level the Vodacom cup is - regardless of the actual level - there's a good chance that they wouldn't be right. Not sure I follow what you're getting at? SA fans think our cup is lower level than the S15? So what?  

Griff wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Griff wrote:Get a sense of humour Fa.  FFS.

Ah it was a joke.... so this means this entire topic is a joke then?

Jokes aside, if you asked most people here in SA what level they thought European rugby on a whole was on they'd probably say... "Vodacom Cup".

Eh?!  I made a self deprecating joke that our players are rubbish in Europe (which they have been).  Not sure how that makes the whole thread a joke?

Not sure what your last line is about either?  Asking people in Wales what level the Vodacom cup is - regardless of the actual level - there's a good chance that they wouldn't be right.  Not sure I follow what you're getting at?  SA fans think our cup is lower level than the S15?  So what?      

Vodacom cup is 3rd tier rugby in SA.

But what has that got to do with anything? It smacks of being a bit arrogant, if you're suggesting that fans look down their noses at European competition as second rate. I'd never look at, say, the Italian league and say that it was sh*t. It's none of my business.

I expected better from you Fa. But then I seem to recall that you're English aren't you? But you seem to have ditched your team for a better one. Upgraded, if you will. That's the easy way out - I might just decide to support the All Blacks so that I can tell you how rubbish SA are (in comparison). But I've got a bit more integrity...

3rd rate

Firstly as far as I know FA is from Scotland. And he still supports them above SA.

Secondly he is wrong about South Africans, they don't see the Rabo at all, so can't comment on it.

We see the Aviva Premiership, some Top 14 and the HC.

If you want my opinion, the HC is generally slower due to the way the European teams play at the breakdown.

Griff wrote:But what has that got to do with anything?  It smacks of being a bit arrogant, if you're suggesting that fans look down their noses at European competition as second rate.  I'd never look at, say, the Italian league and say that it was sh*t.  It's none of my business.

I expected better from you Fa.  But then I seem to recall that you're English aren't you?  But you seem to have ditched your team for a better one.  Upgraded, if you will.  That's the easy way out - I might just decide to support the All Blacks so that I can tell you how rubbish SA are (in comparison).  But I've got a bit more integrity...

FFS Griff. That was my idea of a joke in retort. Didn't you get it???

As BB said, I have never traded in. Ask BB who has known me for years on this site and the old one and whilst I follow the boks, I've never gone so far to say I support them. Scotland is still my team but given I see so little of them and the franchises its near impossible to see how they get on bar written reports.

Biltong wrote:Firstly as far as I know FA is from Scotland. And he still supports them above SA.

Secondly he is wrong about South Africans, they don't see the Rabo at all, so can't comment on it.

We see the Aviva Premiership, some Top 14 and the HC.

If you want my opinion, the HC is generally slower due to the way the European teams play at the breakdown.

BB - we were talking about European rugby in general not any specific competition or league.... but I think given we get every league bar the Rabo I think most interested in global rugby understand it to be undesirable as we would surely get the rights for next to nothing. SS have probably deemed it to be not worth the money given it already has the rest.

Somehow this started with me genuinely complimenting Wales' underdog HC success this season!!!

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:Firstly as far as I know FA is from Scotland. And he still supports them above SA.

Secondly he is wrong about South Africans, they don't see the Rabo at all, so can't comment on it.

We see the Aviva Premiership, some Top 14 and the HC.

If you want my opinion, the HC is generally slower due to the way the European teams play at the breakdown.

BB - we were talking about European rugby in general not any specific competition or league.... but I think given we get every league bar the Rabo I think most interested in global rugby understand it to be undesirable as we would surely get the rights for next to nothing. SS have probably deemed it to be not worth the money given it already has the rest.

Somehow this started with me genuinely complimenting Wales' underdog HC success this season!!!

 

Hard to pick up on jokes I guess - but I have to ask; where is the joke in 'the average South African in the street sees Eureopean rugby as equivalent to 3rd tier'? You'll have to help me on that one.

Griff wrote:Hard to pick up on jokes I guess - but I have to ask; where is the joke in 'the average South African in the street sees Eureopean rugby as equivalent to 3rd tier'? You'll have to help me on that one.

probably more a joke on typical south africans then anything else.

fa0019 wrote:Whats the big issue with players leaving for France, England etc anyhow?

Is it having a detrimental impact on the national game? Doesn't look like it to me.
When they fielded all their top players in Wales they were still unable to qualify for the KO stages in the HC with any frequency. Whats the difference from then to now?

Now at least say 15 players are now in foreign leagues... thats 15 more places for players to get top level experience... and given 3 of 4 are still competitive its not like they're just getting thumped by everyone.

The cost of say Richard Hibbards contract was say 150k to his club and the union (total guess). By 1 player moving out of the system it frees up money for say 5 more professional players. 5 more are able to train like professionals rather than working in a sports shop/gym/bar/cafe when they play in the minor leagues in Wales.

agree with this 100%

Not worried by the player drain in the slightest.

I have faith in what is coming through the system.

It increases the player pool for Wales

GavinDragon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Whats the big issue with players leaving for France, England etc anyhow?

Is it having a detrimental impact on the national game? Doesn't look like it to me.
When they fielded all their top players in Wales they were still unable to qualify for the KO stages in the HC with any frequency. Whats the difference from then to now?

Now at least say 15 players are now in foreign leagues... thats 15 more places for players to get top level experience... and given 3 of 4 are still competitive its not like they're just getting thumped by everyone.

The cost of say Richard Hibbards contract was say 150k to his club and the union (total guess). By 1 player moving out of the system it frees up money for say 5 more professional players. 5 more are able to train like professionals rather than working in a sports shop/gym/bar/cafe when they play in the minor leagues in Wales.

agree with this 100%

Not worried by the player drain in the slightest.

I have faith in what is coming through the system.

It increases the player pool for Wales

The only draw back is regions losing their best players constantly to international commitments and then to foreign clubs with bigger budgets, so every year they are rebuilding the regional teams based around the players that stay on.

Wales regions are a feeder system to the wealthiest clubs in Europe. We the rugby loving public would like to see the teams we support be competitive against the greats of Europe in the HEC or Amlin but do not have the funds or players to compete.

The regions wage cap is £3.5m, that is approximately a sixth of the turn over of most of the European clubs, it is less than half of the wage cap in France.

Yes - all valid points.

However we must face facts there isnt the money/support in Wales to compete. The WRU do more than just prop up the regions they support the entire game in Wales.

As for constantly rebuilding - the exodus will reach a plateau - in my opinion.

GavinDragon wrote:Yes - all valid points.

However we must face facts there isnt the money/support in Wales to compete. The WRU do more than just prop up the regions they support the entire game in Wales.

As for constantly rebuilding - the exodus will reach a plateau - in my opinion.

A plateau would be great, I'd be happy to reach a plateau.

There are benefits for Welsh players staying in Wales, game time, prolonged careers, not being flogged to death as a player without the governance of the WRU.

These are good reasons, plus we can hope that some lads just like being close tot their Mam n' Da.

The best alternative i can see if there isn't a massive change would be for the WRU to agree on regions being rewarded for keeping all Welsh players under 25 at the regions. Hopefully a demand like that from the regions wouldn't break the bank and would be enough to make the regions more competitive.

What would be wonderful would be for the IRB to implement a system of compensation for the clubs or regions that a player played for during youth rugby to encourage all those that invested in that player o keep doing so for the foreseeable future.

I marvel at your faith Maes in unaccountable Union and IRB hacks who play with the wealth generated by players and individuals who invest in the game.

Propping up a flawed centrally controlled elitist game is a house of cards who, as the risks are not diversified only have to make a mistake once to sadly bring it all down.

Recwatcher wrote:I marvel at your faith Maes in unaccountable Union and IRB hacks who play with the wealth generated by players and individuals who invest in the game.

Propping up a flawed centrally controlled elitist game is a house of cards who, as the risks are not diversified only have to make a mistake once to sadly bring it all down.

The individuals trying to make a profit out of the game seems to be the crux of the problem in European rugby.

If these guys were meet sponsors there would be little issues, but they are the directors and CEOs. If they wanted to lend good advice to help run professional rugby that would be great, but trying to make a profit from rugby isn't working in a sport that needs self investment to sustain itself long before profits can be made.

The unions are accountable, they along with the IRB represent the game as a whole and are far better organisations to lead a direction for the sport than private investors.

I can't think of a private investment story in rugby that is a success, can you?

Saints? Gloucester? Harlequins?

HammerofThunor wrote:Saints? Gloucester? Harlequins?

Why do you think those are success stories?

They're reasonably self-sufficient financially. They have good academies, bringing through local lads. They get decent attendances with good atmospheres. The play decent rugby.

HammerofThunor wrote:They're reasonably self-sufficient financially. They have good academies, bringing through local lads. They get decent attendances with good atmospheres. The play decent rugby.

Are they actually turning a profit that would make them a sustainable club?

I don't think they do without continuous investment. No different to the regions in Wales who have very successful academies, attendances and atmosphere are rather subjective.

Saints and Gloucester are. Quins are close and are currently investing in the Stoop.

HammerofThunor wrote:Saints and Gloucester are. Quins are close and are currently investing in the Stoop.

So what can everyone else in rugby learn from this?

Is their model a good model for the rest of rugby to base their business plans on.

When Keith Barwell bought Saints he realised he needed to transfer financial accounting principles from his company Travis-Perkins, to Saints. After the Public Offering back in 2001, which I remember very well, Keith has put zero Pounds into Saints. Instead he runs it like a business and Saints have made money every year since. Best financial record in Rugby.

What model you use fully depends on the local situation. It seems the most successful one in England so far is the slowly slowly approach. Develop the infrastructure slowly and reasonably over time. Expanding when expansion is needed. The current Bath and Saracens model is rely on heavy external investment to get you up there. Will it work? We'll see. But it's highly dependant on they continuing to invest in good faith (see the problems Wasps had last year). But both of these groups are heavily investing in the infrastructure, which will hopefully lead to long term stability.

Equally the Irish Provinces have a good model of success. They also rely on an 'external' investment from the union (£18.5M + central contracts last year). But this is invested in developing the infrastructure and the Provinces are in healthy shape.

There are various models and there probably isn't just one that fits.

fa0019 wrote:Whats the big issue with players leaving for France, England etc anyhow?

Is it having a detrimental impact on the national game? Doesn't look like it to me.
When they fielded all their top players in Wales they were still unable to qualify for the KO stages in the HC with any frequency. Whats the difference from then to now?

Now at least say 15 players are now in foreign leagues... thats 15 more places for players to get top level experience... and given 3 of 4 are still competitive its not like they're just getting thumped by everyone.

The cost of say Richard Hibbards contract was say 150k to his club and the union (total guess). By 1 player moving out of the system it frees up money for say 5 more professional players. 5 more are able to train like professionals rather than working in a sports shop/gym/bar/cafe when they play in the minor leagues in Wales.

Totally agree with this. In fact I think it the IRFU who have got this badly wrong.

Central contracts might help the regions be competitive but when there is only a small number of pro teams like Wales, Scotland and Ireland have - having all the best players confined to those sides is detrimental to the national side, as its difficult to bring young talent through and build depth. The central contracting also removes an element of meritocracy from selection as there is a financial incentive to select the centrally contracted player over one who isn't.

The situation Wales find themselves in isn't ideal, but it is helping bring through talented Welsh players via the regions, even if the teams themselves look relatively weak in European terms.