Transfers 2014/2015 Season

First topic message reminder :

Well silly season is almost upon us so thought I would keep tabs on the comings and goings.  Will put the confirmed transfers, unconfirmed transfers (rumours) and out of contract players into various columns.  Please post any news or rumours and I will keep the original post updated.

Confirmed
Jon Davies (Scarlets) to Clermont
Regan King (Clermont) to Scarlets
Ian Evans (Ospreys) to Toulon
John Afoa (Ulster) to Gloucester
Rory Kockott (Castres) to Toulon (reportedly trying to cancel deal to stay at Castres)
Richard Hibbard (Ospreys) to Gloucester
Mamuka Gorgodze (Montpellier) to Toulon
Sebastien Vahaamahina (Perpignan) to Clermont
Guilhem Guirado (Perpignan) to Toulon
Robin Copeland (Blues) to Munster
Armitev (Northampton) to Russia (unconfirmed club)
Qera (Gloucester) to Toulouse
Casey Laulala (Munster to France (Club unconfirmed but thought to be Racing Metro)
Tom Court (Ulster) to London Irish
Andre Pretorius (Blues) to Worcester
Zac Guildford (New Zealand) to Clermont
Sivivatu (Clermont) to Castres
Aled Brew (Biarritz) to Dragons
Lee Byrne (Clermont) to Dragons
Dwayne Peel (Sale) to Bristol
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester) to Exeter
Dan Evans (Dragons) to Ospreys
Ieuan Jones (Dragons) to Blues
Jean-Philippe Genevois (Biarritz) to Perpignan
Benoit Cabello (Clermont) to Perpignan
Sakiusa Matadigo (Racing) to Perpignan
Jonathan Wisniewski (Racing) to Grenoble
Leigh Halfpenny (Blues) to Toulon
Josh Turnbull (Scarlets) to Blues
Nick Abendanon (Bath) to Clermont
Anthony Perenise (Bath) to Bristol
Craig Mitchell (Exeter) to Blues
Hoani Tui (Exeter) to Lyon
Tavis Knoyle (Gloucester) to Blues
Marland Yarde (London Irish) to Harlequins
Neil Cochrane (Wasps) to Edinburgh
Henry Thomas (Sale) to Bath
Josh Matavesi (Worcester) to Ospreys
Nick Auterac (Saracens) to Bath
Boris Stankovich (Leicester) to Dragons
Bradley Davies (Blues) to London Wasps
Moray Low (Glasgow) to Exeter
Chris Cussiter (Glasgow) to Sale
Matt Stevens (Saracens) to Sharks
Sam Smith (Harlequins) to Worcester
James Gaskell (Sale) to Wasps


Unconfirmed
Martin Moore (Leinster) to France
Freddie Burns (Gloucester) to Leicester
Matthew Morgan (Ospreys) to Leicester/Northampton/Dragons
Toby Flood (Leicester) to Toulon/Toulouse
Niki Genova (Leicester) to Castres
Jim Hamilton (Montpellier) to Japan
Anthony Allen (Leicester) to Leinster
Lote Tuquiri (Leinster) to Connacht
Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier) to Castres
Brice Dulin (Castres) to Racing Metro
Antonie Claassen (Castres) to Racing Metro
Eion Griffin (Connacht) to London Irish
Gavin Henson (Bath) to Dragons



Out of Contract
Adam Jones (Ospreys)
Keith Earls (Munster)
Rob Hawkins (Leicester)
Louis Deacon (Leicester)
Daniel Bowden (Leicester)
Scott Hamilton (Leicester)



Retiring
Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster)
Andrew Sheridan (Toulon - unconfirmed)
Steve Borthwick (Saracens)
Jonny Wilkinson (Toulon) - might be playing on for another season.
Sebastien Bruno (Toulon)
George Chuter (Leicester) moving to Worcester coaching
Johann Muller (Ulster)
Mike Tindall (Gloucester - unconfirmed)
Ian Gough (London Irish - unconfirmed)
Will James (Gloucester)

Is Warbs to be loaned to clubs/regions on a game by game or season by season basis?

ChequeredJersey wrote:Is Warbs to be loaned to clubs/regions on a game by game or season by season basis?

The diplomatic answer to that is.....................to be decided.

Not Regions, they agreed never to field a WRU contacted player I believe, whether they stick to it is another story.

Scrumpy wrote:Not Regions, they agreed never to field a WRU contacted player I believe, whether they stick to it is another story.

The press release about WRUburton signing for the WRU did say that he would be 'leased' back to the Blues without charge, however there has been no statement from the Blues or RRW on a change or stance regarding centrally contracted players. Also Alun Wyn Jones said the following about being offered a central contract “Had there been an agreement where I knew I would definitely have been at the Ospreys [under a central contract], it would have been more difficult for me to choose. I’m guaranteed rugby with the Ospreys, although admittedly I don’t know which competition I’m going to be playing in. But the way the situation is currently, if I’d signed a central contract, I still wasn’t guaranteed rugby and still didn’t know what competition I was playing in.” So it looks like even though the WRU press may have been making assumptions around the Blues accepting to loan him for free. It is all up in the air right now, but 'theoretically' will be sorted by end of play Friday   

I think they should stick to what they agreed, the Blues won't miss him as he rarely turned up anyway!

geoff998rugby wrote:Surely he would have to join one of your regions ?

If he joins Ulster the Scotland door will be firmly shut for the reason I mentioned

Would that not be restraint of trade (more particularly as he is already SQ)?

We are not stopping him play for Scotland (and that is the key) but we are saying if you do your Irish contract with Ulster is terminated - his choice.

It is a standard element of anyone signing for an Irish provinces who is eligable for another nation - Herring, Doyle, Payne, Diack, Black would all have the same clause in their contract (although in Herring and Diack cases no longer needed)

OK, if you say so, altho I'm still at a loss to see how that would work under UK contract law Would it also not contravene the IRB's directive on player release? Nevermind

geoff998rugby wrote:Surely he would have to join one of your regions ?

If he joins Ulster the Scotland door will be firmly shut for the reason I mentioned

You may very well be right*, but can't help hoping that Ulster/IRFU haven't insisted he plays for Ireland.

*99.9% likely

They will 100% insist he commits to Ireland.
No commitment no contract

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:OK, if you say so, altho I'm still at a loss to see how that would work under UK contract law  Would it also not contravene the IRB's directive on player release?  Nevermind

Well it is an Irish contract not a UK one   

No problem with release he can go and play for Scotland whenever he wants.
However if he does so he will no longer be playing for Ulster

In other news, Worcester have signed Ryan Mills and Matt Cox from Glouccester

geoff998rugby wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:OK, if you say so, altho I'm still at a loss to see how that would work under UK contract law  Would it also not contravene the IRB's directive on player release?  Nevermind

Well it is an Irish contract not a UK one   

No problem with release he can go and play for Scotland whenever he wants.
However if he does so he will no longer be playing for Ulster

I'd be very surprised if Robbie was to come over to Ulster and not play for Scotland as know he is very proud about his Scottish
heritage and has always said that if it never happened with the All Blacks he would look to play for Scotland.
Where is the Robbie Robinson move to Ulster coming from? Would be surprised to see him move there with Payne already in the full back
roll and other options at 10!

geoff998rugby wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:OK, if you say so, altho I'm still at a loss to see how that would work under UK contract law  Would it also not contravene the IRB's directive on player release?  Nevermind

Well it is an Irish contract not a UK one   

No problem with release he can go and play for Scotland whenever he wants.
However if he does so he will no longer be playing for Ulster

It does push the boundaries of Regulation 9.3, though. I should think that many may interpret the threat of being sacked from his regular employment as one or all of "inhibit, prevent, discourage, disincentivise".

Well Ulster have been doing it for years and no one has challanged so I suspect it has been legally verified.
As it is up front and made clear to the player I suspect that is the get out clause.
They do not have to sign the contract if they are not happy with its conditions.

Bathite wrote:In other news, Worcester have signed Ryan Mills and Matt Cox from Glouccester

I'm pleased for Cox as he deserves regular game time, but I am gutted about Mills as he has huge potential; he does however suffer from the Glaws backs' curse of being forever injured so I do wonder if that was taken into account with the offer we made him. This does put a lot more credibility into the rumour of Mark Atkinson signing as he'd be a like for like replacement.

Majestic83 wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:OK, if you say so, altho I'm still at a loss to see how that would work under UK contract law  Would it also not contravene the IRB's directive on player release?  Nevermind

Well it is an Irish contract not a UK one   

No problem with release he can go and play for Scotland whenever he wants.
However if he does so he will no longer be playing for Ulster

I'd be very surprised if Robbie was to come over to Ulster and not play for Scotland as know he is very proud about his Scottish
heritage and has always said that if it never happened with the All Blacks he would look to play for Scotland.
Where is the Robbie Robinson move to Ulster coming from? Would be surprised to see him move there with Payne already in the full back
roll and other options at 10!

Simple choice for him sign for Ulster and rule out playing for Scotland or keep the commitment to Scotland and not sign for Ulster.
No compromise it is one or the other.

The rumour is from within the club they are apparantly discussing terms.
Slightly surprised we have not heard anything - maybe this is the sticking point.

A utility back would be perfect for Ulster.
No 'adequate' cover for Jackson; if Payne players some rugby at 13 then a 15 needed.
Wallace retiring
Also a lot of Ulster boys will be with Ireland next year

geoff998rugby wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:OK, if you say so, altho I'm still at a loss to see how that would work under UK contract law  Would it also not contravene the IRB's directive on player release?  Nevermind

Well it is an Irish contract not a UK one   

No problem with release he can go and play for Scotland whenever he wants.
However if he does so he will no longer be playing for Ulster

I'd be very surprised if Robbie was to come over to Ulster and not play for Scotland as know he is very proud about his Scottish
heritage and has always said that if it never happened with the All Blacks he would look to play for Scotland.
Where is the Robbie Robinson move to Ulster coming from? Would be surprised to see him move there with Payne already in the full back
roll and other options at 10!

Simple choice for him sign for Ulster and rule out playing for Scotland or keep the commitment to Scotland and not sign for Ulster.
No compromise it is one or the other.

The rumour is from within the club they are apparantly discussing terms.
Slightly surprised we have not heard anything - maybe this is the sticking point.

A utility back would be perfect for Ulster.
No 'adequate' cover for Jackson; if Payne players some rugby at 13 then a 15 needed.
Wallace retiring
Also a lot of Ulster boys will be with Ireland next year

Well for Robinsons sake i hope he doesn't sign for Ulster if he is going to be stifled by rules like that!

We have keep Irish rugby strong by keeping it tuned to the needs of the National team and long may it continue.
As we have shown that does not mean the next level suffers.

I see no point keeping other countries players in gainful employment unless those players compliment the existing Irish players in the Provincial side and help those players develop e.g. Pienaer, Muller.

To me Edinburgh becoming Scots Saffers does nothing for Scottish rugby.
It is not even as if many of those NSQ players are anything special

geoff998rugby wrote:Well Ulster have been doing it for years and no one has challanged so I suspect it has been legally verified.
As it is up front and made clear to the player I suspect that is the get out clause.
They do not have to sign the contract if they are not happy with its conditions.

Has anyone been sacked for playing for another country? If not then it hasn't been challenged and the only way to see if something is legally sound is to challenge it. I don't see how it CAN'T breach the IRB reg 9.3.

And the Irish have the nerve to have a go at PRL/LNR teams when they are accussed of preventing their PRL/LNR players from playing for their countries!

HongKongCherry wrote:

Bathite wrote:In other news, Worcester have signed Ryan Mills and Matt Cox from Glouccester

I'm pleased for Cox as he deserves regular game time, but I am gutted about Mills as he has huge potential; he does however suffer from the Glaws backs' curse of being forever injured so I do wonder if that was taken into account with the offer we made him.  This does put a lot more credibility into the rumour of Mark Atkinson signing as he'd be a like for like replacement.

yeah I was surprised with Mills, I thought he was one to watch and with 36 away with England and your 10 reshuffle, I thought that he might get more game time?

broadlandboy wrote:And the Irish have the nerve to have a go at PRL/LNR teams when they are accussed of preventing their PRL/LNR players from playing for their countries!

It was in George North's contract that he should be released.

It is in Callum Blacks contract that it his contract is conditional on him not playing for another country

Can you not see the difference !

HammerofThunor wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Well Ulster have been doing it for years and no one has challanged so I suspect it has been legally verified.
As it is up front and made clear to the player I suspect that is the get out clause.
They do not have to sign the contract if they are not happy with its conditions.

Has anyone been sacked for playing for another country? If not then it hasn't been challenged and the only way to see if something is legally sound is to challenge it. I don't see how it CAN'T breach the IRB reg 9.3.

I can because the player is fully aware of the terms of the contract prior to signing it.

If the Union/Province subsequently undertook action to "inhibit, prevent, discourage, disincentivise"..that would be a different matter but that is not the case here.
Players sign these contracts of their own free will no one makes them

geoff998rugby wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:OK, if you say so, altho I'm still at a loss to see how that would work under UK contract law  Would it also not contravene the IRB's directive on player release?  Nevermind

Well it is an Irish contract not a UK one   

No problem with release he can go and play for Scotland whenever he wants.
However if he does so he will no longer be playing for Ulster

I'd be very surprised if Robbie was to come over to Ulster and not play for Scotland as know he is very proud about his Scottish
heritage and has always said that if it never happened with the All Blacks he would look to play for Scotland.
Where is the Robbie Robinson move to Ulster coming from? Would be surprised to see him move there with Payne already in the full back
roll and other options at 10!

Simple choice for him sign for Ulster and rule out playing for Scotland or keep the commitment to Scotland and not sign for Ulster.
No compromise it is one or the other.

The rumour is from within the club they are apparantly discussing terms.
Slightly surprised we have not heard anything - maybe this is the sticking point.

A utility back would be perfect for Ulster.
No 'adequate' cover for Jackson; if Payne players some rugby at 13 then a 15 needed.
Wallace retiring
Also a lot of Ulster boys will be with Ireland next year

If we were talking about a non6N country like a Pacific island instead of Scotland, that type of contract, whether the player is happy to sign it or not, would be seen as a disgrace

Can I ask on what basis he is elligible for Scotland?

Was he born there, come up through a Scottish school/academy system?

Have Scotland invested in him?

MrsP wrote:Can I ask on what basis he is elligible for Scotland?

Was he born there, come up through a Scottish school/academy system?

Have Scotland invested in him?

MrsP, you know what the answer to some of those questions is already, so why ask?

Clearly Scotland have not invested in him. Have Ireland? He might think that being already qualified for Scotland thru his father is a better bet than having to wait a pitiful 3 years to qualify thru residence for Ireland (i.e a la MacVisser)

MrsP wrote:Can I ask on what basis he is elligible for Scotland?

Was he born there, come up through a Scottish school/academy system?

Have Scotland invested in him?

Yes, this is fairly instrumental. If he's just elligible through "mercenary means" (couldn't think of a less controversial way to say that, but I mean residency, grandparenbts etc) then it's hard to see it as taking a player away from Scotland

Why is Callum Black not allowed play fir the USA? Its not like Ireland are struggling for LHs and he could beneifit from playing the extra games with the US in the summer.

The USA also have huge problems come scrum time and a guy like Black would help them hugely.

IRB Regulation 9, preamble E

"In the best interests of the sport at all levels, Regulation 9 must be implemented by all stakeholders properly and in good faith. Compliance with not only the letter of the regulation, but also its spirit is integral to achieving its objectives in the best interests of the sport."

IRB seem to recognise the grey areas involved in player release by invoking the "spirit" of the regulation. I'm not sure that "spirit" is capable of definition nor enforceable - I'm also not sure whether IRFU recognises that "spirit" in any shape, manner or form.

When I suggested (possibly misinformedly, for which I apologised) that Manoa was being pressured from playing for the USA by Saints, everyone was up in arms... and French teams restricting Fijian and Eastern European players from International rugby was seen as shameful

Which it is, CJ

Just seems like there is a smidgeon of double-standards going on

I think the water is a little muddier in this instance, to be fair, as Robinson is clearly a Kiwi first and foremost

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

MrsP wrote:Can I ask on what basis he is elligible for Scotland?

Was he born there, come up through a Scottish school/academy system?

Have Scotland invested in him?

MrsP, you know what the answer to some of those questions is already, so why ask?

Clearly Scotland have not invested in him.  Have Ireland?  He might think that being already qualified for Scotland thru his father is a better bet than having to wait a pitiful 3 years to qualify thru residence for Ireland (i.e a la MacVisser)

  

No, I didn't. That was why I asked. I have heard his name associated with a move to Ulster but that is all I know of him. I discovered he was elligible for Scotland about 10 mins ago.

I was genuinely asking as I think it does make a difference.

I suppose you could say a 3 year contract was something of an investment?

Over any issue like this the water is always muddy, or there would be no debate. It's one thing to say "Ok, it's a bit dodgy but here's why it's actually OK" (which in this case is pretty much what is happening to a degree) and to try and say that there's no issue though, which was my only real annoyance with the whole Europe debate where it seemed like each side was trying to pretend all of the faults were being made by the other

MrsP wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

MrsP wrote:Can I ask on what basis he is elligible for Scotland?

Was he born there, come up through a Scottish school/academy system?

Have Scotland invested in him?

MrsP, you know what the answer to some of those questions is already, so why ask?

Clearly Scotland have not invested in him.  Have Ireland?  He might think that being already qualified for Scotland thru his father is a better bet than having to wait a pitiful 3 years to qualify thru residence for Ireland (i.e a la MacVisser)

  

No, I didn't. That was why I asked. I have heard his name associated with a move to Ulster but that is all I know of him. I discovered he was elligible for Scotland about 10 mins ago.

I was genuinely asking as I think it does make a difference.

I suppose you could say a 3 year contract was something of an investment?

You could, altho I still wish they'd make residency qualification 5 years minimum (even tho Scotland appear to be attempting to acquire an entire squad under the current rules)

Apology accepted.

  

MrsP wrote:Apology accepted.

  

None given!

 

 

New face furniture?

Nope. While you were whistling, I'd grown a 'tache

Suits you sir!

Actually, were you going for "distinguished" or "shifty" ?

I don't see the issues with this, Ulster would not be be denying him the opportunity to play international rugby, just asking him to commit to Ireland - little difference between this and giving a youngster a cap to tie him into your national set up. When he qualifies and if he is good enough he will have the opportunity to play for Ireland, as Geoff states this isn't against his will he has the decision as to whether to sign or not.

IMO this is completely different to signing someone and denying/discouraging them from playing international rugby - which it is suggested happens at some clubs.

ulster_on_the_up wrote:

IMO this is completely different to signing someone and denying/discouraging them from playing international rugby - which it is suggested happens at some clubs.

Which is what, I would imagine, the regulation was brought in for.

So, Olly Barkley is looking for a new club with immediate effect -
http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/9139828/top-14-olly-barkley-leaves-grenoble-after-unsuccessful-spell

Where do we think he is best suited?

If Henson leaves Bath would he be welcome back there?

propdavid_london wrote:So, Olly Barkley is looking for a new club with immediate effect -
http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/9139828/top-14-olly-barkley-leaves-grenoble-after-unsuccessful-spell

Where do we think he is best suited?

Cardiff Blues are crying out for a flyhalf...

Well Worcester I guess? Or maybe at Newcastle?