World Class Players - Top three in the world in each position (end of year debate)

First topic message reminder :

Naturally there is a lot of debate on the IRB World Player of the Year and Team of the Year thread over the players announced. Especially in positions of strength where good players will always miss out. As such I thought I'd resurrect the unoriginal but always entertaining debate of who the top 3 players in the world in each position are at the end of 2013. Here's my best shot:

Loosehead - Ayerza, Healy, Mtawarira - Corbs would be very close if he can keep fit, similar for Domingo

Hooker - Du Plessis, A Strauss, Hibbard - Moore very close to the third spot

Tight Head - Jones, Figallo, Cole - Jannie Du Plessis unlucky with injury for the AI's

Second Row - Etzebeth, Horwill, Whitelock, Retallick, O'Connell, Wyn-Jones

Blindside - Lobbe, Alberts, O'Brien - Special mention to Gorgodze who is immense at Montpellier and Messam/Luatua who have really impressed for NZ. Also apologies about crow barring O'Brien at 6 but I had to get him in somewhere as I've been really impressed with him all season - criminally underused by the Lions I thought!

Openside - McCaw, Hooper, Louw

Number 8 - Read, Parisse, Vermuelen - Mowen unlucky to just miss out

Scrum half - Du Preez, Genia, Murray - Not a position of strength world wide right now!

Fly half - Cruden, Cooper, Carter - Sexton is very close though

Left wing - Savea, Habana, North - Pretty straight forward there

Inside centre - Fofana, De Villiers, Nonu

Outside centre - C Smith, Davies, O'Driscoll - Probably one of the biggest positions of debate

Right wing - B Smith, Bowe, Pietersen

Full back - Folua, Dagg, Halfpenny - Position of impressive strength world wide with Le Roux especially unlucky to miss out.

Some positions naturally easier than others as always with these lists. Particularly tough positions included Number 8 and second row with lots of excellent options in both. For the opposing reason scrum half and outside centre proved tough due to many sides chopping and changing with few throwing their hands up at 13 especially.

Amongst the unluckiest to miss out I'd have to go for:

Le Roux at FB
Mowen (and Faletau at a push) at No 8
Gorgodze at Blindside
Robshaw and Leguizamon at Openside
Launchberry and Albacete at lock
Jannie Du Plessis and Mas at TH
Moore at hooker

One interesting point in note is the South Pacific Islanders players conspicuous by their absence with many excelling at club level as always. However due to contractual obligations etc don't get the chance to shine in full strength international sides against the best. Someone like James Johnston especially could shine in most International sides around the world. Looking at the European sides Gorgodze is definitely in that bracket as well - truly immense in the T14 and Heineken Cup.

Faumuina got hammered in the scrum in the AI's, he was really disappointing.

Afoa never set the world alight at Int level but he's a certain improvement on Faumuina.

nganboy wrote:I think that because there is a lot of running and passing in Super Rugby that a lot of NH fans then get this idea that we are not interested in and so therefore not that good at the other stuff.
So many times I have read about how we're not good at defence and doing the hard yards in the front.
However come the internationals NZ, SA, Aus tend to hold their own in the set pieces and defend well. Then the attack comes in and we tend to win the bulk of the interhemisphere games. So while we don't necessarily dominate scrums it's not like we get pushed around easily.

Anyway, Jhammer, funny how both the kiwi props you mentioned, Johnstone and Afoa, were born in Auckland.

How is that funny, I don't get what you mean there.
It's a known that the when is comes to scrummgaing New Zealand and Australia can struggle against any of the Six Nations teams. That's all i'm not having a pop at any of the prop in New Zealand. If anyone from the NZ team deserves t be int he top 3 it is Owen Franks because he is a great supporting player and a has an immense work rate. It's just up here as a lot have already said, we use scrums as a weapon and we see scrummaging tightheads more valuable and in a sense better than a prop who has a better work rate.
Lets say Adam Jones vz Owen franks, it's obvious that the majority of people would pick Adam Jones over Franks; but that's purely because of his dominance in the scrum, don't get me wrong Adam has a good work rate but not as good as Owen Franks; like Owen Franks isn't a terrible scrummager but there are a good number of tight heads that I would pick ahead of him. Anyway New Zealand seem to do fine with a dominant scrum anyway, don't they  

Hi Jhammer I meant it was funny about how you had mentioned Johnstone and Afoa as being good scrumaging props but also how the Blues have been weak recently there.

I guess what I was saying is "how much do we really struggle against 6 Nations scrums?"

Actually growing up in the 70s and 80s I always felt NZ had an advantage in the scrums against most/all countries (memory bit dodgy mind you) and it was our lack of height in the lineout that was a weakness. I agree that I no longer feel that advantage in the scrums but we play SA and now Arg every year, who are acknowledged scrummers, and we do alright - we win some and we lose some but never get truely dominated (I feel)

nganboy wrote:Hi Jhammer I meant it was funny about how you had mentioned Johnstone and Afoa as being good scrumaging props but also how the Blues have been weak recently there.

I guess what I was saying is "how much do we really struggle against 6 Nations scrums?"

Actually growing up in the 70s and 80s I always felt NZ had an advantage in the scrums against most/all countries (memory bit dodgy mind you) and it was our lack of height in the lineout that was a weakness. I agree that I no longer feel that advantage in the scrums but we play SA and now Arg every year, who are acknowledged scrummers, and we do alright - we win some and we lose some but never get truely dominated (I feel)

Oh right i see know, the Blues haven't always been weak in the scrum but at the moment they aren't really as much as a dominant force come scrum times. That's what I was saying really.

I do think the main 3 teams that NZ do struggle with are France, England and Wales form the Six Nations team. France and England did get the upper hand this Autumn which is why i feel the game were much closer games. However, without Mas or Adam Jones i'm sure that NZ would be a very dominant force at scrum time. Woodcock has always been a tactician at scrum time, he hasn't had the brute force that other loose heads have like Domingo or Ayerza have but Woodcock has never been thrashed at scrum time purely because he knows his scrums and stands his ground. But when up against people like Adam or Mas they only know how to stay square and plow forward (i wouldn't say that mas or Adam are tactical scrummager but are just so strong that they are able to stay square and literally drive through the scrum. The problem isn't woodcock but Owen Franks. Anyway if they Ben Tameifuna kid fit, then you will have a real star there come the future. He looks like a force already and how old is he 23.

Jones is absolutely a tactical scrummager...

He is a tactical scrummager. He is one of the best because of it!!!

Jhamer25 wrote:

nganboy wrote:Hi Jhammer I meant it was funny about how you had mentioned Johnstone and Afoa as being good scrumaging props but also how the Blues have been weak recently there.

I guess what I was saying is "how much do we really struggle against 6 Nations scrums?"

Actually growing up in the 70s and 80s I always felt NZ had an advantage in the scrums against most/all countries (memory bit dodgy mind you) and it was our lack of height in the lineout that was a weakness. I agree that I no longer feel that advantage in the scrums but we play SA and now Arg every year, who are acknowledged scrummers, and we do alright - we win some and we lose some but never get truely dominated (I feel)

Oh right i see know, the Blues haven't always been weak in the scrum but at the moment they aren't really as much as a dominant force come scrum times. That's what I was saying really.

I do think the main 3 teams that NZ do struggle with are France, England and Wales form the Six Nations team. France and England did get the upper hand this Autumn which is why i feel the game were much closer games. However, without Mas or Adam Jones i'm sure that NZ would be a very dominant force at scrum time. Woodcock has always been a tactician at scrum time, he hasn't had the brute force that other loose heads have like Domingo or Ayerza have but Woodcock has never been thrashed at scrum time purely because he knows his scrums and stands his ground. But when up against people like Adam or Mas they only know how to stay square and plow forward (i wouldn't say that mas or Adam are tactical scrummager but are just so strong that they are able to stay square and literally drive through the scrum. The problem isn't woodcock but Owen Franks. Anyway if they Ben Tameifuna kid fit, then you will have a real star there come the future. He looks like a force already and how old is he 23.

I still think the term 'struggle' needs to be put into context. For one, NZ doesnt base its entire performance on its scrum. Scrums dont win matches by themselves, nor do lineouts or any other one item.

If you place a large part of yor teams strategy on the scrum- then struggle- then its a problem- game breaking. That's why the NH- Englands and France and even South Africa...struggle.

I've never known AB sides to be beaten because of their scrum so I think the term 'struggle' needs to be put into context when discussing it. Its being discussed here as though 'if the scrums ok, then we're ok' which clearly isnt the case.

I think NZ does ok at scrum time and with the just announced retention of Mike Cronn, NZ's scrum guru, will be an area of focus for the next two years. Although I know we havnt been too sharp there this year, how much is because of the new engage process I don;t know but the goalposts certainly have shifted and scrums are still coming to terms with it.