Without Hopkins and RJJ....

Does Calzaghe still merit entry into boxing hall of fame?

simple question

answer is pretty damn obvious

Yes it is obvious. Based on what has gone before, he sails into the HoF with a fair amount to spare.

At first when I saw this question, in my head my initial thought was "Yes, of course he would have done." But upon a wee bit of reflection, I don't think it's totally cut and dried.

If you subtract the wins over Hopkins and Roy (the latter of which didn't really mean owt anyway), then Calzaghe's career record does still probably (or certainly in some cases) read better than the likes of Flash Elorde, Gatti, Brian Mitchell, Daniel Zaragoza, Ingemar Johansson, McGuigan etc, all of whom have made it to Canastota. No arguments from me on that.

But (and it's a significant but), the difference is that all of those men, despite mostly not being American themselves, were either big names and attractions in the States during their careers, or at the very least fought a big fight of real significance Stateside at some stage. Hopkins and Jones were the only two times that Calzaghe boxed in America, so if he'd never fought them and decided to retire after Kessler, his overall record wouldn't have looked that much worse, but his standing and reputation in America (which, like it or not, is the home of the IBHOF and still the biggest league in the sport) wouldn't have been anywhere near as impressive as they are now.

Granted, there are some inductees in the modern crop (which I'm focussing on, seeing as the 'old timers' inductee list is even more of a joke) who didn't fight in the States at all in their careers, such as Jung Koo Chang and Myung Woo Yuh.

However, there doesn't seem to be any consistency when it comes to this category of fighter (ie, the ones who never ventured to the States). Chang and Yuh get in, but then someone like Darius Michalczewski, with a record clearly better than the two Koreans, and at least comparable to Calzaghe's, doesn't? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Likewise, names such as Sot Chitalada, Yoko Gushiken, Yuri Arbachakov etc probably have overall CVs that at least put them in the same bracket as Chang and Yuh, but none of them have made the cut in to Canastota. If the two Koreans are in, then the latter three might well ask, why aren't we in as well?

None of Michalczewski, Chitalada, Gushiken or Arbachakov ever fought in America. Hey, it could just be a coincidence, but Dariusz could certainly crack an all-time top 20 Light-Heavyweight list (and that's a hard 20 to crack, to say the least), while both Chitalada and Arbachakov could contest a place just inside an all-time top 10 at Flyweight. Hard to imagine an American, or a non-American who at least managed to fight and become an attraction in the States, achieving these kind of things but not getting the call from the IBHOF.

Could argue that America's closer ties with Britain than with Germany and the Orient would have always seen Calzaghe over the line in any case, even without his American pit stop in 2008, but maybe a bit of food for thought all the same.

Even if we leave out all of that business, the IBHOF do still drop the odd clanger. Santos Laciar, Michael Nunn, Donald Curry etc. Despite having such ridiculously low standards, the Hall of Fame STILL manages to miss out these kind of names every now and again! These guys fought in the States or were American and their careers are at least the equal of Calzaghe's if you subtract the wins over Hopkins and Jones. So while Calzaghe's career, even if it had ended in 2007, should have been enough to sail in by the IBHOF's standards, these three names are a reminder that it's not a 100% guarantee if you're record is anything less than absolutely sparkling. So who knows, maybe that little run at 175 lb in 2008 might have made the difference between Calzaghe getting the nod or getting shunned five years on?

I think on balance, if Calzaghe had wrapped things up after beating Kessler he'd still probably have made the Hall of Fame - but it's been downgraded to a 'probably' for me after a bit of thought, rather than a 'definitely', which is what I first came up with.

So that's a probably then chris? I only read the last line. Did I miss anything mate?  

It's a yes, regardless from me, due to the standards they set. Though as chris says (I lied I did read it) there are equally deserving names that haven't been included.

The Lacy victory was high profile in the States (I remember Sugar Ray making a huge fuss about it).  Regardless of what has since happened to Lacy, he was a big deal in the run up to the fight and Calzaghe gutted him.  It grabbed the attention of the American boxing community and it's what made the fights against Jones Jnr and Hopkins feasible.  Whilst there's no legislating for the decisions of the HoF, the Lacy victory, in addition to the unbeaten record, should have provided enough exposure to Calazaghe to ensure his inclusion.

Can't argue with much of that really, Superfly. Just me overcomplicating things again, probably!

Borderline. The Hopkins win positioned him as a two-weight linear champion (the Jones win meant next to nothing).

Prior to that (reading between the lines and ignoring alphabet nonsense) he was largely a top contender at super middleweight throughout his career who eventually became champion versus Lacy and made three successful defences (Manfredo, Bika and Kessler).

The Lacy and Kessler wins were commendable, though.

The Hopkins win is one of his best wins considering what Hopkins has went on to do. The RJJ win is largely meaningless for me.

Not sure Chris.

He had a super fight against an undefeated Kessler in Cardiff which was a huge success. Just because it wasn't stateside.....doesn't mean that its any less of a great outcome, IMO.

HOF worthy for sure although his record, along with other fighters, will always be open to debate.

Think Chris has a point about the fights being stateside. Whilst it should not matter most of the HOF voting panel are American and as most of us know it can be a fairly insular country. Think whilst Joe’s achievements pre Hopkins were pretty borderline and certainly as strong as many who are in he was a little anonymous stateside. I recall seeing an interview with Roy Jones when they fought and he was asked why it had not happened sooner, his response was that beating Eubank gave Joe a bit of profile he kind of dropped off the radar after that in his WBO/Tocker Pudwill days.

Definitely agree there is something to the argument that the Hopkins fight in particular did a lot to address this problem. In all fairness though, fighting stateside has thus far done Naz no favours in getting the call.

Doesn't help either that a few of the voters weren't even covering boxing during Naz's pomp. All they focus on is the Barrera fight and his vote goes up in smoke.

He's in there based on 3 fights - Kess, Lacey, Hoppo.

Given that Hoppo is one of his (only?) top wins and gives him the two-weight linear champ tag, I think taking that away his case becomes quite week.

Still a top boxer, and still a likelihood he'd get in as the requirements are absurd, but he should struggle IMO.

It's interesting how the hoppo fight is perceived. I thought Calzaghe was a great fighter (who should have got out more) before the Hopkins fight. After I saw him struggle to get past the old man, I revised him downwards. Couldn't see the Hopkins say, that beat trinidad, not beating jc.

Obviously that jc performance looks better in hindsight as Hopkins has continued to roll back the years. Whichever, it seems a touch ironic that a fairly unimpressive performance, which it was pretty much considered at the time, is now the one that defines his career.