Leinster v Ulster. Sat 28th December

First topic message reminder :

While I wasn't certain about our selection of the past two games at least if we follow through with a good team it will provide some spectacle over the Christmas interpros.   

I think the consensus is amongst Ulster fans that we are looking at 

Court, Herring, Fitz, Tuohy, Stevenson, Diack, Doyle, Wilson, Marshall, Jackson, Allen, Marshall, Cave, Trimble, Gilroy

With the bench depending on fitness of those coming back from injury. 

Any Leinster types lurking about to post a likely team?

LEINSTER:
15: Zane Kirchner
14: Dave Kearney
13: Brendan Macken
12: Noel Reid
11: Luke Fitzgerald
10: Jimmy Gopperth
9: Isaac Boss

1: Michael Bent
2: Aaron Dundon
3: Martin Moore
4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN
5: Mike McCarthy
6: Rhys Ruddock
7: Sean O'Brien
8: Jordi Murphy

REPLACEMENTS:
16: James Tracy
17: Mike Ross
18: Jack O'Connell
19: Tom Denton
20: Dominic Ryan
21: Luke McGrath
22: Ian Madigan
23: Darragh Fanning

Strongish Ulster team:

(15-9): R Andrew, A Trimble, D Cave, L Marshall, C Gilroy, P Jackson, P Marshall;
(1-8): C Black, R Herring, D Fitzpatrick, L Stevenson, D Tuohy, R Diack (Captain), S Doyle, R Wilson;
(16-23): N Annett, T Court, R Lutton, N McComb, M McComish, R Pienaar, J Payne, M Allen.

REFEREE: John Lacey (IRFU), ASSISTANT REFEREES: Peter Fitzgibbon, Eddie Hagan-O'Connell (both IRFU) CITING COMMISSIONER: Eugene Ryan (IRFU) TMO: S

very disappointed. Ulster barely looked like they cared. Barely a boast for Leinster taking a win from that Ulster performance. Players on the fringes have been stepping up whilst players who are sure of gametime have seriously taken their foot off the gas.

Not a happy camper - and Anscombe will be having very serious words.

Disgraceful.

Steady on lads, more of a realistic barometer of where Ulster are at considering the teams they have played thus far...

Please let SOB be ok

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Please let SOB be ok

+1

Well deserved win Leinster. That is the worst display from Ulster hopefully out of the way this season.

VinceWLB wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Dislocated shoulder for Sean O'Brien. How long  does that normally keep someone out for?

I would say 4 weeks if lucky.

Great. There goes our best player for the 6 nations. Absolutely sick of the amount of injuries in the game nowadays.

Missed the game, almost glad I did from the sounds of things. Very disappointed.

Did anyone play well at all? Both from Leinster and Ulster.

BlueMuff wrote:Ulster mid field is terrible it's like a leaky tap! Leinster bringing huge intensity it's only a matter of time

Just read the stats and it isn't pretty. Jackson missing 7 tackles apparently. Marshall missing 2.

Those stats have as much meaning as McComish being top tackler last week with none missed.

The Great Aukster wrote:Those stats have as much meaning as McComish being top tackler last week with none missed.

i would agree. There is no point in having stats for these games when Leinster are playing there b&i cup centres and walking through what some people suggest are the possible Irish threequarters.

ME-109 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Those stats have as much meaning as McComish being top tackler last week with none missed.

i would agree. There is no point in having stats for these games when Leinster are playing there b&i cup centres and walking through what some people suggest are the possible Irish threequarters.

Ah we breed them well Decco. And if they dont fit, we pass them on to the AVIVA Prem, where they always shine. Oh the sheer irony of it all.

Great night out. Was phooking freezing on the South Stand mind. Good craic in the Horse Show House afterwards. Ulster fans travel so well. They were so many there.

Back to the Dam with a smile on me fisog.

Believe.

Aye Gibbo. You travelled in hope and got the desired result if not the performance   Ulster had a poor one mind and they are better than that display.

Well done Leinster, by far the better side. Apart from the scrum which went ok we were second best in every key aspect, particularly the breakdown were we were demolished.

Very disappointing performance, the only positive being how well we defended our line to keep the score line respectable. Touhy fronted up and Diack made a couple of key turnovers but across the field there were too many poor performances, that was a strong Ulster team so no excuses...only one team came to play yesterday.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Just read the stats and it isn't pretty.  Jackson missing 7 tackles apparently.  Marshall missing 2.

Just had a look at those stats Rory and they also show Leinster had 100% possession and 100% penalty goal success! Maybe the two misses by Gopperth don't count? The tackle stats are a complete joke.

rodders wrote:Well done Leinster, by far the better side. Apart from the scrum which went ok we were second best in every key aspect, particularly the breakdown were we were demolished.

Very disappointing performance, the only positive being how well we defended our line to keep the score line respectable. Touhy fronted up and Diack made a couple of key turnovers but across the field there were too many poor performances, that was a strong Ulster team so no excuses...only one team came to play yesterday.

Without Henry and Best we are weak at the breakdown, that was demonstrated most of all last night.  Diack made a couple of good individual turnovers, but Doyle at 7 has looked average at best.  So without our best openside in Henry and our extra openside at hooker in the form of Best we really struggle in that department.

Ulster still don't have the depth that Leinster do.

This match does very little other than show where a largely 2nd string Ulster and 2nd string Leinster side currently are.  We simply don't have the depth in the pack when we have injuries to compete with other top sides in Europe.  Thankfully outside of Leinster there aren't any real top sides in the Rabo.  We have as good a first 15 and 23 as there is in Europe when everyone is fit, but we don't have the depth.  Apart from Tuohy and Diack who both had barely passable matches, the pack was utterly dominated and left the back line exposed.  And yet Leinster only scored 19 points.  Yes we defended well close to our line (and nowhere else) but Leinster, once again this season, looked utterly toothless.  There is plenty for both sides to ponder but no need to panic just yet.  We need a reaction and no better team to do it against than Munster.

This argument that Ulster don't have depth - I'm not having it.

The 15 starters out there last night had the capability to win that game - they just didn't want to. Failure to hit rucks and support players was the main difference in that game.

You can't say that those players aren't capable of doing those things, they just didn't. Thats why I'm so angry and Anscombe too.

But in fairness, Leinster are masters at the dark arts around the breakdown and all their gurning and whinging and pretending ultimatly led to the ref making a harsh and very quick call on penalising doyle and giving him a yellow.

Has the ref forgotten that a tackle needs to be held otherwise the tackled player bounces back to his feet? The ruck had barely formed when Doyle got penalised.

And if I see Boss falling over himself pretending he's not getting clean ball one more time I'm going to flip!

But yea that aside, Ulster didn't win last night because Ulster didn't really want to.

Disgraceful.

Agree on Boss there Clive. That's contrary to the way the game should be played and no better than footballers feigning injury. I would be having a word if I coached him in the same way I would at times have words with Pienaar for his throwing the arms up and imploring for penalties.

On the game it looked like the Ulster guys didn't want to get injured or just didn't care. leinster were well up for it and deservedly won comfortably.

moving on a serious reaction is needed because we cant go into the Heineken on the back of 3 poor performances. I don't know in what state the returnees are but I would be tempted to start Henry and Henderson and bench Robbie.

Court, Herring, Afoa, Muller, Tuohy, Henderson, Henry, Wilson, Pienaar, Jackson, Gilroy, Marshall, Cave, Trimble, Payne

Black, Annett, Fitz, Diack/Stevenson, Williams, Marshall, Wallace, Allen

I don't know what the best way to reintroduce the injured is and Hendo to 6 im dubious about. Maybe risk Robbie for this one and ease Henderson back in with a view to starting against Montpol. Im not certain. I would like to see our backline making some inroads though. Havent seen enough over the last couple of games

The irony around Boss is, that if he just got the ball away quickly Leinster would have scored trys much earlier last night.  Even in our 22 rather than produce quick ball he just wanted penalties, fortunately Lacey was having none of it.

Whether you are having it or not is entirely irrelevant Clive.  Tuohy apart, that was an entirely second or third string Ulster pack.  No one can deny they were woeful last night.  Real powderpuff stuff except for Tuohy and Diack who were just about passable.  The real question is even if they put in a decent performance, would they be good enough to turn teams like Leinster over?  I really doubt it.  Roger Wilson will rarely play as poorly as that, but look at Leinster's reserves- Jordi Murphy who is a genuinely exciting talent unlike Ryan who has flattered to deceive.  Rhys Ruddock actually looks like a rugby player now.  Our young forwards simply are not up to the mark.  

A real question can be asked at Leinster now- should they let Heaslip go in order to fund a rebuilding in the backline which, Fitzgerald aside, looked utterly toothless last night and has done for much of the season.  As far as I've heard (through the Ulster grapevine) one new centre from Connacht will be arriving.  I heard at first it was McSharry but now seems to be Griffin.  

Anyway, wailing and gnashing of teeth does no good here.  The real problem is that is two poor performances back to back.  The real story is rumours I have heard that not all is entirely well in the Ulster camp.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
 The real story is rumours I have heard that not all is entirely well in the Ulster camp.

Care to elaborate?

Dodger, I heard a while ago the usual murmourings you would expect from players about Anscombe. It appeared to be the usual type of thing that those who are picked love him, and those on the bench don't. But some fringe players apparently aren't happy with some of the things said behind closed doors about their performance levels and other 'senior' players seem to escape the same level of post game analysis. Some believe that some players are untouchable and the first team squad is a closed shop.

I say 'apparently' pointedly here. I've heard it through third hand sources, though they tend to give pretty decent information most of the time. Personally I don't buy it. Apart from Herring, Diack and Wilson over the season, has any fringe player really put their hands up? I don't really think so.

I like Mark Anscombe. I think he is doing a very good job. But there is something systematically wrong that we aren't producing quality young forwards, Henderson aside.

As I have said before Ulster rely overmuch on 8 or so players.
If too many are missing the performance nose dives.

That is a worry and this game confirms it

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote: I like Mark Anscombe.  I think he is doing a very good job.  But there is something systematically wrong that we aren't producing quality young forwards, Henderson aside.  

There is a problem re forwards but you cannot blame Anscombe for that.
It has been recognized and the better players in the Academy are now forwards rather than backs, Scholes apart.

It will take a few more years for that to come to the fore - be patient.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote: I like Mark Anscombe.  I think he is doing a very good job.  But there is something systematically wrong that we aren't producing quality young forwards, Henderson aside.  

There is a problem re forwards but you cannot blame Anscombe for that.
It has been recognized and the better players in the Academy are now forwards rather than backs, Scholes apart.

It will take a few more years for that to come to the fore - be patient.

I didn't mean it as a criticism of Anscombe- it is hardly his fault. I mean overall the lack of young forwards is alarming. I don't share that consensus about the academy forwards. They look like a very average bunch.

Scholes is a real talent and there is something about Shanahan I like as well. Though the rest of the backs are very average it must be said. It isn't a great crop.

Disappointing to hear even rumours of a split etc. I would put forward Diack as the perfect example of a lad who was peripheral upping his game and earning the starts he has. I can't think of two many fringe guys putting their hands up truth be told so I agree with Hook in that regard.

I don't put alot of stock in the rumours. In truth, what coach is popular with players not playing? But the fact that I even heard about them, plus the fact that Anscombe's contract has not been renewed yet is leading a few people to suggest 2+2=5.

I am astonished they haven't renewed it yet. I'm told by someone else that talks are 'ongoing'. Seems a no brainer to me.

Ah here now calm the auld jets there lads. Two below par performances doesn't make a crisis. A win against Munster would see us more or less were expected after the xmas period.

As far as I'm concerned we haven't learned anything new - people want to criticise the fringe guys and talk about lack of depth but for me if there are fingers to be pointed over the last 2 weeks its at experienced players like Pienaar, Trimble, Wilson, Marshall, Cave etc. its easy to single out guys like Doyle and Andrew but its their higher profile teammates who want to take a look at themselves - depth hasn't been the issue, rather the attitude of a lot of the senior squad members heading into the last 2 games.

Leinster are hitting a good patch of form, and things for them are starting to click for them, so 19-6 considering how poor we were isn't the end of the world.

rodders wrote:Ah here now calm the auld jets there lads.

Leinster are hitting a good patch of form, and things for them are starting to click for them, so 19-6 considering how poor we were isn't the end of the world.

I wouldnt say that Leinster are hitting a good patch of form. In fact quiet the opposite. They have lost 2 of their last 3 games and more worrying is their attack is looking like a shadow of itself this time last year. O'Connor is very defensive minded. With all the possession and dominance in the pack they should have scored more tries. Then there was failure to cross the line against Saints and Cardiff in the last few minutes when the games were there for the taking. Last year they would have won those games.

That said I would not be worried about Ulster one bit. Put your money on it they will be a different team at home against Munster on Friday and all this talk of problems in the camp will be gone. They are 2nd/3rd in the league and looking good in the HC. No team can play well every match all season long.

rodders wrote: depth hasn't been the issue,.

Can't agree we have had quite a bit confirmed over the last couple of weeks

Black is a great deputy but is not good enough for 1st choice LH
Fitzpatrick is a great scrummager but offers little around the park
Stevenson is a superb counter rucker but is one paced and goes into contact far too high - poor technique
That backrow is not good enough - we need a ball carrier (Henderson, Ferris or Williams) who can break the gain line and we need quality at the breakdown (only Henry and Best deliver consistently).
Actually after Friday I'd settle for players who actually arrive at the breakdown - Wilson and Fitzpatrick in this regard were a joke.
Wilson's best days are behind him
Talk of Marshall as an Irish scrum half should be put to bed now
Andrew, along with McIlwaine and McKinney, will never be good enough

I suspect some harsh words being said behind the scenes - it has been a sobering few weeks

I think Wilson will be good enough for the job he is doing which is essentially sharing the role with Williams. Doyle got seriously shown up albeit against a top class 7. Another back row would be great

Other than that I agree Geoff

BlueMuff wrote:
That said I would not be worried about Ulster one bit. Put your money on it they will be a different team at home against Munster on Friday and all this talk of problems in the camp will be gone. They are 2nd/3rd in the league and looking good in the HC. No team can play well every match all season long.

Exactly.

I don't disagree Geoff but things are not that bad...squad players are exactly that but the depth is as good as anytime I can remember. This was a bad 2 weeks but a win against Munster and we'll be in a good place going into the heino.

Oh yeah gutted to hear about O'Brien, best player in the country bar none - maybe a chance for Henry at international level but SOB is a big loss if he's out for the season or most of it.

I think Neil McComb is nearly as good as Lewis Stevenson now. McComb is no great shakes but gets through more work. Stevenson is still good in the lineouts and for one or two good mauls/counter-rucks in a game but the rest of his game has disappeared. Shame, Stevenson was excellent last season.

We need a win against Munster because we're fifth and Glasgow have a game in hand so we lose this one and the Top 4 start pulling away- I would quite fancy a bonus point but thats probably not going to happen. We have a lot of ground to make up on Munster and I want them leaving empty handed.

Against Zebre and Leinster, the attitude was just very poor- never mind the fact our reserve forwards may not be up to standard, they fell well short of their own standards in both games. Felt sorry for the backline on Saturday, we could have certainly used a decent fullback from the start though! Don't blame Anscombe, his hands are somewhat tied.

Is it time to start blooding Peter Nelson as a 15? I know he hasn't impressed for the Ravens but he has more potential than Andrew.

He definitely has more potential Notch it's just I don't think his best performances have come at 15. Gilroy or Olding at 15 would be better than Andrew but (certainly for the latter) I would worry that it isn't his right position

Andrew was singled out by Leinster and badly exposed under the high ball....a dangerous runner but doesn't inspire confidence at the back. Agree with Stand that Gilroy and to a lesser extent Olding look the best bets at the back.