Italians quitting the Pro12?

http://rugby1823.blogosfere.it/2013/12/affari-italiani-il-futuro-in-pro-12-i-celtici-lo-mettono-in-dubbio-e-in-italia.html

For the first time in the British press about a possible tournament to 10 teams, while we Zebras and Treviso are considering the pros and cons of a future as a professional.

One thing he had noticed in recent months regarding the renewal of the contract between Italy on the Celtic League , namely the RaboDirect Pro 12 . And it was the silence of the Irish and British press , that while facing the European crisis and the Welsh seemed to take for granted the status quo italics.

A silence that you could , on the outside, read in two ways: on the one hand a lack of interest in the fate of Zebras and Treviso , as if their presence at the tournament Celtic was marginal and uninteresting , then a non- news for the British press on the other could make people believe that in Ireland , Wales and Scotland will give confirmation for the next four years for granted , or because you had news to us denied, or because it was obvious the Italian brand .

Yesterday , however, on the pages of The Guardian has published an extensive article on the crisis oval of Wales, in which they discussed various issues concerning the Pro 12 and Heineken Cup and a paragraph was dedicated to Italy . " Then there is the Pro 12 , which in addition to need a new title sponsor ( RaboDirect leave at season's end , ed . ) Could also be reduced to 10 teams , with the FIR he is thinking whether to keep his two professional teams , Treviso and Zebras, in the tournament. agreement with the three federations will expire at the end of the Celtic year and the negotiations for the renewal are at a dead end , "writes Paul Rees, connects very versed in matters Celtic .

In short, for the first time the British press can clearly speaks of Italian goodbye and "dead " in negotiations . And the problems are many to deal with. On the one hand, there is the actual discussion between the Fir and federations Celtic , with President Gavazzi who wants to not having to pay the fee of three million Euros annually to Celtic , but on the other there are the two club.

Zebras . The Zebras, as you well remember, were born a year and a half ago as a stopgap after the chaos Herons , with then president Dondi who repeatedly said he did not want a federal exemption and that it was only a temporary solution . Well, Gavazzi has also repeatedly said that the Zebras will be privatized next year , but now you do not know anything and are deprived so eager to jump into an adventure that has few positives. Zero public , media visibility zero , zero results on the field , the experience Zebras is not one of those that encourage investing , let alone in times of crisis.

In fact, zero return , under too many points of view. And many millions spent four years in the early Celtic . A situation that also moves in Treviso , where Benetton has more than a doubt about his Celtic future . In the first four years of Pro 12 , in fact, the Venetian family has put into the pot over twenty million euro , getting little in return . Benetton will want to continue and , if so, under what conditions? Certainly not the current .

How do you see the future of Italian in Europe is increasingly black and points of demand increases instead of decreasing . And meanwhile , time goes by and the hourglass empties more . And the mistakes of the past four years, today , are becoming a tragedy oval .

Basically as Paul Rees puts it:

As they could by remaining in the Pro12, which as well as needing a new title sponsor may be reduced to 10 in number, with the Italian Rugby Federation debating whether to keep its two professional teams, Treviso and Zebre, in the tournament. Its participation agreement with the three Celtic unions runs out at the end of the season and there is deadlock over its renewal.

In the four seasons the federation has been in what was the Celtic league, it has paid €3m a year for the privilege. The sum is divided 10 ways: the Welsh regions receive €1.2m, as do the Irish provinces, and the two Scottish teams share €600,000. The Italians want to be treated as equals, no longer paying in but taking out a share with the other three unions, but the new television deal with Sky is only worth £5.5m a year: BBC Wales is paying £3.2m for the secondary rights and the Irish and Scottish packages are worth little more than £300,000 combined.

The €3m payment to the celtic unions (ostensibly to cover their travelling costs to games in Italy) was never picked up on the numerous articles about the future of the HC.

Articles in which the English (in particular) and the French clubs were labelled 'money grabbing bar stewards' but what they were proposing - more money for everyone actually - is nothing compared to the cash grab levied on the FIR.

The Italian clubs have equal travel costs to filfil their Pro12 away fixtures but get nothing to help them.

No wonder they are contemplating quitting the league.

The problem with both the Welsh and Italian sides deciding their future is that there is no certainty until everything else is sorted out. Europe needs to be decided before we know how to resolve those problems.

I think a more meritocratic approach is fair, but not sure if it's possible to guarantee it until we have more information on what other income we'll have for whatever tournaments there are next year. I want them to continue, but they aren't bringing much to the table in terms of broadcasting rights in Italy. I don't think we have any income from the TV in the Italian market at all. Thats the issue.

As a fan, I want them to continue in the league- we'll be subsidising them and so we should be. But we need Europe sorted to make that possible.

3 and a half years ago this was said:



http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/8556144.stm

Page last updated at 15:24 GMT, Monday, 8 March 2010



Magners League
The league currently has 10 teams from Wales, Ireland and Scotland

The Magners League is to be expanded from 10 to 12 teams from the start of next season as two Italian clubs are set to join the Celtic competition.

The Celtic Rugby Board board have given Treviso and a renamed Viadana a four-year licence into the revamped League.

The move is the biggest boost for Italian rugby since the national team's entry into the Six Nations in 2000.

The two Scottish, four Welsh and four Irish clubs have received financial guarantees from the Celtic board.

The current teams - including reigning champions Munster - feared they might have lost out financially with the admission of the Italians.

So after a year-long viability review, league chiefs reassured the current members about the financial and commercial conditions.

Italian rugby coach Nick Mallett and president of the Italian rugby Giancarlo Dondi
I am sure that the Magners League will bring benefits to all Italian rugby and will have a positive impact on the competitiveness of our national team

Giancarlo Dondi, President of Federazione Italiana Rugby

There had been fears Scottish teams Edinburgh and Glasgow's participation in the Magners League was in jeopardy after a supposed disagreement with their Welsh and Irish counterparts over a proposal to include the Italian teams.

But the three Celtic Unions unanimously agreed to the introduction of two new Italian super sides after further reassurances of the competitive strength of the two Italian entrants and the standard of their facilities.

The Italians joining the Magners League, which has been in discussions for the best part of 18 months, is expected to be widely well-received in rugby as it should significantly improve Italian rugby standards.

Benetton Treviso and the new Aironi rugby region - based at Viadana's Stadio Luigi Zaffanella - which will involve various clubs from the Lombardia and Emilia-Romagna regions will enter the Magners League in its 10th season.

Federazione Italiana Rugby (FIR) propose to have both Benetton Treviso and Aironi's Heineken Cup qualification ring-fenced for the next four years - but that move must be ratified by the ERC.

There had been hope of creating a Magners League super club in the capital Rome but that proposal collapsed so both Italian clubs will be based in the rugby stronghold of northern Italy.

Celtic Rugby director David Jordan said: "This is another massive step forward for the Magners League and follows the decision to go to a top four play-off system to determine our champion team.

"As well as providing more fixtures for the teams already involved, this will also bring both a major cash injection into the competition and greater exposure across Europe.

"The implementation of the play-offs and the Magners League Grand Final this season has already seen a marked improvement in the competitiveness of the League and the arrival of two Italian teams will provide another boost to the competition.

"Operationally it will present new challenges, as well as opportunities, but by introducing Italy into the Celtic fold it will also dramatically broaden the appeal of our product.

"It is anticipated that the Italian super clubs will be largely made up of Italian internationals of full, A and under 20 levels, with a sprinkling of top class overseas players set to provide further extra strength and spice to the tournament."

FIR president Giancarlo Dondi added: "I am sure that the Magners League will bring benefits to all Italian rugby and will have a positive impact on the competitiveness of our national team."

The Magners League Italian move has been welcomed by the rugby hierarchy in Wales.

Regional Rugby Wales chief executive Stuart Gallacher said: "We have been supporting this move for some months.

"We are always looking to extra revenue and the Italians give us all two extra home games each and, given time, the Italians will be a force to be reckoned with in our league and it will make the league much more competitive.

"They have great plans to bring all their international players back from Europe to Italy and that would raise the profile of the tournament.

"With a population of 60 million and rugby starting to take hold, the potential of Italy is vast."

While Welsh Rugby Union chief executive Roger Lewis added: "For the last two years it has been our ambition to deliver an enhanced tournament which will expand and continue to develop as a showcase for some of the very best of northern hemisphere rugby.

"It will prove a great incentive for all four Welsh Regions to test themselves against teams from a nation which is emerging as a real strength in the European game."

The inclusion of Italian sides continues the Magners League revamp, which began this season with a new play-off and Grand Final system to decide the champions.

The Magners League began life as the Welsh-Scottish League in 1999 before growing into the Celtic League with the inclusion of Ireland in 2001.

The first moves to expand the tournament into new territories were made in 2005, with the proposal of a 24-team Rainbow Cup featuring teams from Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Italy and South Africa.

606: DEBATE
Will the Italian introduction into the Magners League benefit the Azzurri?

Financial issues prevented that competition from getting off the ground but the seed had been sown for expansion.

Celtic Rugby announced in March 2009 that it had agreed "in principle" for the inclusion of two Italian teams for the 2010-11 season.

Final approval was based on the Italian teams meeting certain criteria with regards to playing and facility standards, finance and commercial, including television.

Irish Rugby Football Union chief executive Philip Browne said: "The inclusion of the two Italian sides for next season can only strengthen the competition into the future.

"The Magners League has continually grown year on year in terms of attendances, viewership and standards during its lifetime and the news today certainly continues this progression."

No way Italy will pull out and i think the other unions will drop the fees. Think what the two teams could do with the extra money, or prefferably the FIR give central contracts.

Italy will not let their national team fall back as that is their money spinner.

As Scotland have shown, a bit of investment in your teams makes them better.

Same old story all over the game, they want to eat slice of the pie, not bake the bloody thing and let the others eat it.

Though I always thought the money the Italians gave to the other teams was fot the traveling and expense. Lets be honest it's not cheap is it!

That's why I always felt it was a poor show that the Italians were levied a fee for entering the league. They have the same travel costs in the opposite direction.



Which union was the main instigator of that caveat for them joining?

Hound of Harrow wrote:That's why I always felt it was a poor show that the Italians were levied a fee for entering the league. They have the same travel costs in the opposite direction.



Which union was the main instigator of that caveat for them joining?

Wales and Ireland wanted them in, with Scotland against according to the old news story I posted above.

I'd guess that for the Irish and possibly the Welsh they would have been sure enough that the two extra home games would have covered the travel cost but the SRU with lower attendances wouldn't have been sure, and wanted the FIR to cover it to make sure they were not losing money by letting the Italians join. I hope now after 3 years of bedding in every teams 2 extra home games covers the additional travel costs and the FIR can then increase Zebre and Terviso budgets by 1.5 million each.

With that extra cash they could become play off condenders soon enough.

They need Europe!

Kingshu wrote:I'd guess that for the Irish and possibly the Welsh they would have been sure enough that the two extra home games would have covered the travel cost but the SRU with lower attendances wouldn't have been sure, and wanted the FIR to cover it to make sure they were not losing money by letting the Italians join. I hope now after 3 years of bedding in every teams 2 extra home games covers the additional travel costs and the FIR can then increase Zebre and Terviso budgets by 1.5 million each.

With that extra cash they could become play off condenders soon enough.

According to the Ospreys forum the last walk up crowd for the Zebre game was 40 people. I doubt 40 people buying tickets is enough to send the ospreys squad, management and support staff to Italy. The Ospreys have 5,000-6,000 season ticket holders their pretty much down to te hard core support with few people actually buying tickets.

I thought the O's had 7000-8000 season ticket holders?

Ospreys V Zebre attendance 6529
Ospreys V Glasgow attendance 5679

Cardiff Blues V Zebre attendance 7513 (is surprisingly their 2nd highest attendance this year V Ospreys the highest)
Cardiff V (a big name) Munster 6122

Dragons V Zebre 5554
Dragons V Ulster 5165

Therefore I don't think it can be argued that V a weak Italian team creates low attendance.

The FIR have paid the additional travel costs for 3 years, while the other teams pocketed the profits from 2 extra home games, that is enough time for the other teams to make the 2 extra home games cover the travel costs, if not its a failing of that team and not the FIR.

Hound of Harrow wrote:The €3m payment to the celtic unions (ostensibly to cover their travelling costs to games in Italy) was never picked up on the numerous articles about the future of the HC.

Articles in which the English (in particular) and the French clubs were labelled 'money grabbing bar stewards' but what they were proposing - more money for everyone actually - is nothing compared to the cash grab levied on the FIR.

The Italian clubs have equal travel costs to filfil their Pro12 away fixtures but get nothing to help them.

No wonder they are contemplating quitting the league.

This clearly shoots dead the myth constantly being perpetuated on these boards by the Celts that they are "helping" the italians to develop their game. The similarity to the ERC is both shocking and laughable in what they are actually doing is maintaining a monopoly and lining their pockets at the expense of the non celtic teams.

The italians would bs far better off joining the Top14.

Do you not think they tried joining the Top 14? Also if they do join the Top 14 do you honestly think they will be allowed join fo free, no conditions attached???

You do realise Zebre pull in an average attendence of about 1000 a game? They bring very little to most teams in the league.
The Rabo unions are struggling to survive, let alone keep up with the massive wage levels in France. So how can we let the Italians join for free. Please explain that one to us.

I agree with the criticism of the Celtic Unions to charge the Italians for participating. However, I would favour a return to a 10-team league next season because playing games during international windows is a necessity of the current structure and I would prefer it if we could avoid it altogether. That was the main argument against the Italians joining at the time and that's why I was against it myself. However, the Italians might get a chance to still be involved depending on how the Welsh situation plays out.

It illustrates the stupidity of dividing European qualifying places by league when nations can leave or join the Pro12. I think it has to be done by Union.

I guess the main issue that will decide whether they stay or go is whether the revenue from the two extra home games is more than the cost of travel and extra players for the other sides. I don't think they should have to pay anymore. We either go forward as equal partners or not at all.

I'd be fairly delighted to see them continue- maybe if the Welsh teams drop to three WRU controlled regions Treviso will make up the 10. It just seems counter-productive to have so many games in the league when the international players are unavailable. I'd rather have fewer matches of greater quality. But at the same time it really does seem retrograde and ridiculous to have a country represented by just one team   

I genuinely don't know. I think the FIR might want to pursue the idea of having a team in the PRO12 (10? 11?) and combine their club competition with other smaller unions in Europe. Italian club sides against Georgian, Russian and Romanian opposition? Might well work better for them in the long term to be perfectly honest.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Do you not think they tried joining the Top 14? Also if they do join the Top 14 do you honestly think they will be allowed join fo free, no conditions attached???

You do realise Zebre pull in an average attendence of about 1000 a game? They bring very little to most teams in the league.
The Rabo unions are struggling to survive, let alone keep up with the massive wage levels in France. So how can we let the Italians join for free. Please explain that one to us.

The opportunity for sponsorship & increased revenue from TV deals etc. would potentially be far higher if they went Top14. Also a lot of their best players ply their trade in France. Travel wise alone they woukld be significantly better off too. If they cannot compete at the top table in France then maybe they should be in their  lower league thus allowing them to get some wins, build a fan base and fight back from there.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:let alone keep up with the massive wage levels in France.

That's the root of all the trouble and strife in European rugby really.

But if you have it flaunt it FR

We cant really blame France for the situation the Rabbo has got itself into

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I thought the O's had 7000-8000 season ticket holders?

Last season when they were giving them away. But they arent giving them away so now. I think it's 5,500, but they also give a lot of tickets away for games.

Am sorry but are we really suggesting that we should dump the italians. They will never be in the T14 and why should they have to go to the ProD2.

Italy are stronger for it and the rising generation will make the italians much better. If the FIR put the 3m into central contracts it would only strengthen their teams and help them to hold onto their better players.

Also if Italy are outside of the Pro12 it will really weaken the hand in the Euro debate.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I thought the O's had 7000-8000 season ticket holders?

It's the way you tell 'em. You should be on the stage.
Are you here all week?

Shifty wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I thought the O's had 7000-8000 season ticket holders?

Last season when they were giving them away.  But they arent giving them away so now.  I think it's 5,500, but they also give a lot of tickets away for games.

Free shirts too don't forget.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Shifty wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I thought the O's had 7000-8000 season ticket holders?

Last season when they were giving them away.  But they arent giving them away so now.  I think it's 5,500, but they also give a lot of tickets away for games.

Free shirts too don't forget.

It was a £50 voucher to be used in the club shop.

It makes more sense for the Italians to be in the Top14 than it is for them to be in the Pro12. Namely in terms of finance, logistics and crowd pulling (for the Italians) the Top14 would have been better. But I am certain if that was on the cards then that's where they would be right now, even if it meant coming up from the Pro D2.
Also, I feel that the Italians being in the Celtic League undermines the league and the H-Cup; solely because we end up playing the same team four times and when we play them away it's in an empty stadium and for most teams in the League they are not a crowd puller. Bad for the H-Cup and league, they are one reason why I think H-Cup qualification is a good thing in the Celtic League, but that is for another thread.

I think that for the Italians the best thing that they can do, and something I have said from the start, is that they invest in their own league. That three million pounds could be well spent on central contracts for top internationals to play in Italy. They could follow the new Australian NRC and put teams out to tender. Then accept teams that have the facilities, population and geographical spread to make a strong league - providing that they can centrally contract the top players, let the clubs contract the youngsters and 'old warhorses' and then try and bring in some big names, NZ or SA, to help the quality - I am sure there are a few wealthy associates in the prosperous North that can pay for a few. Union could even run a few teams and bring one or two in.

I personally think that would be the best way forward, investing in your own league. Is perhaps a bit more long term but I think it would help the overall depth and competitiveness on Italy.

Shifty wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Shifty wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I thought the O's had 7000-8000 season ticket holders?

Last season when they were giving them away.  But they arent giving them away so now.  I think it's 5,500, but they also give a lot of tickets away for games.

Free shirts too don't forget.

It was a £50 voucher to be used in the club shop.

Don't get shirty, mun.
All the "regions" have been guilty of giving away free stuff. Ospreys more than most though from what I can tell.

Cardiff Dave wrote:Don't get shirty, mun.
All the "regions" have been guilty of giving away free stuff. Ospreys more than most though from what I can tell.

I'm not mate, most people traded in the voucher for that seasons shirt

JayMaster3000 wrote:It makes more sense for the Italians to be in the Top14 than it is for them to be in the Pro12.

Zebre would be bottom and relegated right off the bat, they have won one game in 2 years in the Rabo. The depth in France is incredible, they'd never cope with it.

Aironi lost 82-0 at home in Europe to Clermont a few years ago, god help the Italians in the Top 14!

Shifty wrote:

JayMaster3000 wrote:It makes more sense for the Italians to be in the Top14 than it is for them to be in the Pro12.

Zebre would be bottom and relegated right off the bat, they have won one game in 2 years in the Rabo.  The depth in France is incredible, they'd never cope with it.

Aironi lost 82-0 at home in Europe to Clermont a few years ago, god help the Italians in the Top 14!

I see your what your saying, and I totally agree. But that's not the point I am trying to make. In terms of building support and a fan base, pulling in TV sponsors and the overall cost in travel the Top14 makes more sense.
Even if Zebra were relegated straight away, they can still build and go back up and learn and develop from there. Perhaps didn't make that clear enough.

JayMaster3000 wrote:Namely in terms of finance, logistics and crowd pulling (for the Italians) the Top14 would have been better. But I am certain if that was on the cards then that's where they would be there right now, even if it meant coming up from the Pro D2.

Also, lets not forget Aironi's first win was against, at the time, a high flying Biarritz side 28-27. But not sure if that counts because they were shocking bad.

Brendan wrote:Am sorry but are we really suggesting that we should dump the italians.  They will never be in the T14 and why should they have to go to the ProD2.

Italy are stronger for it and the rising generation will make the italians much better.  If the FIR put the 3m into central contracts it would only strengthen their teams and help them to hold onto their better players.

Also if Italy are outside of the Pro12 it will really weaken the hand in the Euro debate.

I think you may have misunderstood this... It is the Italians who WANT to leave the Pro 12.

According to the report of FIR's AGM, they want to negotiate the conditions (i.e., 3m) of their continued participation in the PRO12, not that they want out.

Why anyone would think that it would not be a step backwards for the Italian teams to start playing in an amateur league again is beyond me. The 3M they would save from playing in the PRO12 would be swallowed up very quickly by having to run a league for 10 or 12 teams with no tv deal and poor quality rugby.

JayMaster3000 - the French don't want the Italians which is surprising considering their high profile in Fira-Aera. Hopefully when FIRA-Aera take over the running of rugby in the Northern Hemishere, they will remember who took the weaker teams into the league to help them develop!

I agree with the Italians on this one - they shouldn't have to put 3 million in the pot continually.

It cant be more costly than the travel the Italian sides have to put up with. Of the 11 away matches - 10 of them are all based in the UK & Ireland and that is far more travel cost than they other sides participating pay. I also think 3 million is a crazy amount given actually the limited amount of trips to Italy teams are having to make. On that basis Wales and Ireland should be contributing more as they provide more teams others have to travel too. That's just common sense.

But for me the merits of home games should cancel out the travel cost for the away fixture. To be honest the 3 million they would save would be better served increasing their franchises budgets so they can get more competitive similar to how the scots have progressed. It will make for a much better league in the end.

Welshmushroom wrote:I agree with the Italians on this one - they shouldn't have to put 3 million in the pot continually.  

It cant be more costly than the travel the Italian sides have to put up with.  Of the 11 away matches - 10 of them are all based in the UK & Ireland and that is far more travel cost than they other sides participating pay.  I also think 3 million is a crazy amount given actually the limited amount of trips to Italy teams are having to make.  On that basis Wales and Ireland should be contributing more as they provide more teams others have to travel too.  That's just common sense.

But for me the merits of home games should cancel out the travel cost for the away fixture.  To be honest the 3 million they would save would be better served increasing their franchises budgets so they can get more competitive similar to how the scots have progressed.  It will make for a much better league in the end.

I'd echo your post. 3m will afford them to buy some talent to make them more competitive. Good for the league and Italian rugby.

Yep more competitive teams from Italy will see a far more interesting league as well as drive the interest in the sport over there. If a Italian side similar to Glasgow could get itself into top 4 contention it could really spark the interest of the fan base there which would see much more coverage potential of the league.

Welshmushroom wrote:Yep more competitive teams from Italy will see a far more interesting league as well as drive the interest in the sport over there.  If a Italian side similar to Glasgow could get itself into top 4 contention it could really spark the interest of the fan base there which would see much more coverage potential of the league.

I thought Treviso could push for a top 6 this season but they have gone backwards and are arguably not much better than Zebre, unfortunately.

Its time the deal was renegotiated and its not right the Italians still pay to play. Italy needs the pro 12 and the pro 12 needs italy

The Pro 12 is dead, once the Welsh regions leave to ply their trade in the Anglo-Welsh league the Rabbo will become even more of a side show. Good luck Scotland, Ireland and Italy you will need it!

wrfc1980 wrote:The Pro 12 is dead, once the Welsh regions leave to ply their trade in the Anglo-Welsh league the Rabbo will become even more of a side show. Good luck Scotland, Ireland and Italy you will need it!

Not too sure if that is fair. The WRU need to put in teams. So if the rest of the Rabo nations are willing to put up with very poor welsh sides for one/two maybe three seasons, then the Rabo will be fine as the union will be looking to bring back players/bring through star kids, with their new sides.

wrfc1980 wrote:The Pro 12 is dead, once the Welsh regions leave to ply their trade in the Anglo-Welsh league the Rabbo will become even more of a side show. Good luck Scotland, Ireland and Italy you will need it!

Wow. That really comes across as if you're delighted at the prospect. I believe the Pro 12 will survive, although it would be lessened by the loss of the regions until those who replace them can become as competitive. 2 maybe 3 years I reckon. That's assuming that WRU/RFU grant the regions permission to switch to AP of course.....
Don't you fret about the Provinces. Unlike the regions, they are well run, and will survive whatever happens.

wrfc1980 wrote:The Pro 12 is dead, once the Welsh regions leave to ply their trade in the Anglo-Welsh league the Rabbo will become even more of a side show. Good luck Scotland, Ireland and Italy you will need it!

Thank for you for complete failure grasp the reality of the situation.

There will be a Pronn next year and Welsh teams will be in it.

wrfc1980 wrote:The Pro 12 is dead, once the Welsh regions leave to ply their trade in the Anglo-Welsh league the Rabbo will become even more of a side show. Good luck Scotland, Ireland and Italy you will need it!

It is nothing to gloat about as what you have just said threatens the existence of professional rugby in these countries, which in turn will effect the future of international rugby in Europe. I just wish people would stop playing poker with something we all hold very dear and just think for a second about the potential consequences of what they are doing!

BigGee wrote:

wrfc1980 wrote:The Pro 12 is dead, once the Welsh regions leave to ply their trade in the Anglo-Welsh league the Rabbo will become even more of a side show. Good luck Scotland, Ireland and Italy you will need it!

It is nothing to gloat about as what you have just said threatens the existence of professional rugby in these countries, which in turn will effect the future of international rugby in Europe. I just wish people would stop playing poker with something we all hold very dear and just think for a second about the potential consequences of what they are doing!

I agree. I do not want Pro rugby to collapse in Scotland and Ireland. However I can see why Welsh regions would jump ship. Why should they show allegiance to a union that seems to want to bankrupt them? The English teams would prefer a new European competition to an Anglo Welsh league but they are being forced down this road by the unions. The Italians are being forced out by the Celts insistence on the Italians alone having to pay to play.

It seems to me that the Scottish, Welsh and Irish unions attitude over the past year or so starting with their refusal to talk to the PRL and LNR for over a year following notice being given is now coming home to roost. I hope that compromise is still possible but Rugby officialdom on all sides does not seem well endowed with that quality.

Exiledinborders wrote:

BigGee wrote:

wrfc1980 wrote:The Pro 12 is dead, once the Welsh regions leave to ply their trade in the Anglo-Welsh league the Rabbo will become even more of a side show. Good luck Scotland, Ireland and Italy you will need it!

It is nothing to gloat about as what you have just said threatens the existence of professional rugby in these countries, which in turn will effect the future of international rugby in Europe. I just wish people would stop playing poker with something we all hold very dear and just think for a second about the potential consequences of what they are doing!

I agree. I do not want Pro rugby to collapse in Scotland and Ireland. However I can see why Welsh regions would jump ship. Why should they show allegiance to a union that seems to want to bankrupt them? The English teams would prefer a new European competition to an Anglo Welsh league but they are being forced down this road by the unions. The Italians are being forced out by the Celts insistence on the Italians alone having to pay to play.

It seems to me that the Scottish, Welsh and Irish unions attitude over the past year or so starting with their refusal to talk to the PRL and LNR for over a year following notice being given is now coming home to roost.  I hope that compromise is still possible but Rugby officialdom on all sides does not seem well endowed with that quality.  

  

This is a real sad situation at the moment. However it is a chain of evens that have occurred (HEC demise, RRW v WRU, Italians leaving) that could have been stopped by the Unions, PRL and LNR all getting around the table early. Sadly that hasn't happened and now it is a case of just sitting back, watching it all collapse around our heads and hoping that there is still something left for our kids to watch when they grow up.

Spider, the PRL never wanted to negotiate with the ERC - they just wanted it dead so that they could take over a great competition and screw everyone else. And the RFU let them do it.

They will screw the regions as well and the RFU will let them do it.

Sin é wrote:Spider, the PRL never wanted to negotiate with the ERC - they just wanted it dead so that they could take over a great competition and screw everyone else. And the RFU let them do it.

They will screw the regions as well and the RFU will let them do it.

I agree that will probably happen. But in the process it will screw the Irish, Scots and Italians too. After all if the regions leave the Rabo, and the Italians do, then what future do the Irish and Scottish sides have with no HEC and no real completion in the Rabo? It is a poop storm that started with not getting around the table and sorting things out so much earlier, instead of burying heads in the sand and preying that it would all turn out alright.

Sin é believe what you want but as has been shown on numerous threads the evidense is different. PRL/LNR were pushed to do what they did with the FFR still forcing LNR to do what they want rather than working with them.

Exiledinborders wrote:

BigGee wrote:

wrfc1980 wrote:The Pro 12 is dead, once the Welsh regions leave to ply their trade in the Anglo-Welsh league the Rabbo will become even more of a side show. Good luck Scotland, Ireland and Italy you will need it!

It is nothing to gloat about as what you have just said threatens the existence of professional rugby in these countries, which in turn will effect the future of international rugby in Europe. I just wish people would stop playing poker with something we all hold very dear and just think for a second about the potential consequences of what they are doing!

I agree. I do not want Pro rugby to collapse in Scotland and Ireland. However I can see why Welsh regions would jump ship. Why should they show allegiance to a union that seems to want to bankrupt them? The English teams would prefer a new European competition to an Anglo Welsh league but they are being forced down this road by the unions. The Italians are being forced out by the Celts insistence on the Italians alone having to pay to play.

It seems to me that the Scottish, Welsh and Irish unions attitude over the past year or so starting with their refusal to talk to the PRL and LNR for over a year following notice being given is now coming home to roost.  I hope that compromise is still possible but Rugby officialdom on all sides does not seem well endowed with that quality.  

I know this has been said many times, but once PRL signed the BT contract there was nothing to discuss. PRL signing the BT contract meant that they had excluded the AP clubs from HEC competition. Their seriously flawed plan for European rugby thereafter was dependant on the Unions caving in to their demand of dropping ERC, exiting HEC and joining, upon acceptance of invite, this new PRL/BT devised RCC. It was never going to happen, and not just because the Unions would never agree to it, but also their friends, the LNR, never had any intention of joining with PRL in this PRL dream. They used it as leverage for their own LNR/FFR negotiations.
This offer, if it actually exists, of PRL inviting the regions into AP is nothing more than a means to an end for PRL. Something to fill the void of their own making.

Munchkin get it correct. It was once ERC signed an exclusive deal with SKY, after the PRL/BT deal, that PRL teams could not return to an ERC run comp.

Posters like wrfc are a brilliant example of what has gone so badly wrong in Welsh rugby.  Another Welsh poster outlined this in another recent thread in reference to a Welsh poster called Steffan who refers to teams from his own country as "sospan scum".  These guys are more suited to the football terraces than the rugby community.  Everyone in European rugby has spent over a decade since the start of professionalism trying to build european rugby into a great game and a tiny minority of these clowns think its fantastic that we now have a real crisis on our hands and are primarily concerned with point scoring.  Not just against other countries or leagues but even their own sides.