Is Top 14 a try-free borefest

by brennomac Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:47 pm

Haven't seen the Toulouse-Clermont game yet, but in the other 6 Top 14 games this weekend there has been the grand total of 5 tries, and a real 6-0 thriller between Oyonnax and Metro. Are French people really happy watching this sh1te?

Only good thing from Top 14 this weekend was Grenoble turning over Toulon (7 penos from Jonny W and not a smell of a try) - was the second leg of my double along with Ulster beating Munster.

Not saying Rabo is brilliant or anything but at least you do get the odd try!

by Shifty Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:00 pm

Thats why I prefer the Welsh Premiership to the Rabo.

You always see far better entertainment between the Welsh Premiership teams than the Rabo teams.
Less structured rugby, more points and tries, more skill, more mistakes and more comedy.

I went to see Aberavon V Bridgend last Saturday, I support Bridgend, my partner Aberavon. We raced into a 2 try 12-0 lead, and feeling a bit cocky I started to rip into her, then due to obvious cheating the Aberavon team got 2 penalties and got it back to 12-6. Then on the stroke of half time they scored a try to bring it too 13-12.

Then at the start of the second half they scored another try to make it 18-12. 3 Minutes from the end of the game Bridgend smashed the Aberavon scrum on their own line and got a penalty try. To make it 18-19 to us. Then in the 80th minute they had a penalty from the half way line which fell short, but in what seemed the 12434434th minute of injury time they got a penalty from the touchline and won 21-19 with the last kick of the match.

I have had grief all Saturday and Sunday for Bridgend losing but the Premiership is just more fun and entertaining.

by **Notch** Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:18 pm

Sometimes it is.

by geoff998rugby Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:37 am

The Rabo stands up very well in terms of tries scored.

For me the T14 is, by far, the less entertaining of the 3 major European leagues

by HammerofThunor Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:37 pm

By my calculation the average number of tries per game is about 3.2 for the T14. It's about 3.2 for the Pro12 (not 100% as the couple of cancelled games may have thrown me). Premiership (again only by my quick calculations) has an average of 3.6 tries per game.

EDIT: For this season so far

Number of tries has nothing to do with 'excitement'. Main thing is emotional investment. Then it depends on what you like to see. Some like to see headless chicken rugby that ends up with tries scored all over the place. Personally I go for error free, fast paced (error free is more important than the pace, up to a point).

by VinceWLB Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:42 pm

Not only is it try free, it is also slow paced (well the latter implies the former in some way).

by TJ Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:51 pm

The lack of away wins is more concerning to me. IMO the best rugby I see and I watch a fair amount tends to be the top games in the Rabo with a few good games from the aviva. the worst games the bottom of the Rabo and the dull attritional "scared to loose" stuff that tends to be the mainstay of the aviva and top 14

by HammerofThunor Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:11 pm

Just for clarity. Last full season the average number of tries per game were:

T14 - 3.6 (not done as cannot be bothered to sort out the issue with having more games)
P12 - 4.0 SD 30% (3>60; 3>50; 7>40; 10>30; 12>20)
AP - 4.0 SD 18% (0>60; 4>50; 8>40, 12>30; 12>30)

So AP and P12 about same in terms of tries per game. With a slightly more equal spread across the league in the Premiership.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:16 pm

There should be more mismatches and bow outs in the 14 team T14 as well.

A points difference spread would be another good indicator of tight games. Are there any stats to back up the "no away wins" theory regarding T14..Ive heard it trotted out before but not with numbers.

Corker again on Sunday in the Jeff, 6 try last gasp draw between two top table sides.

by HammerofThunor Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:24 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:There should be more mismatches and bow outs in the 14 team T14 as well.

A points difference spread would be another good indicator of tight games. Are there any stats to back up the "no away wins" theory regarding T14..Ive heard it trotted out before but not with numbers.

Corker again on Sunday in the Jeff, 6 try last gasp draw between two top table sides.

Mean winning margin is very important (or at what it represents is). The most enjoyable games IMO are those that go to the wire. But Tigers are really a top table side now are they? Whistle

Out of curiosity what 'stats' do people think are relevant when talking about 'exciting' leagues? We're all sensible enough to know that the biggest motivator for this is personal involvement. If your team plays in a league you're more interested in it, result in other games can effect your team, etc. But what about the more tangible things?

We have the number of tries (represented by mean number of tries per game).
Competative (mean winning margin)
Keeping things 'fresh' (different teams in playoffs/final/winning)

by geoff998rugby Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:37 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
A points difference spread would be another good indicator of tight games. Are there any stats to back up the "no away wins" theory regarding T14..Ive heard it trotted out before but not with numbers.

I checked it out and there were only 7 up to about a month ago - there have been a few since

Both the Aviva and the Pro12 were significantly higher - basically an away win was, something like, twice as likely as in the T14

by HammerofThunor Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:40 pm

Of course that could mean that teams are much more balanced in the T14 than the advantage of home crowd being enough to tip the balance. We know it's not though, right?

There was that article by Jackman (Grenoble coach?) where he talks about the lack of belief in the French players that they can win away from home. It's beginning to change with some teams as they're buying in outsiders who go for the win. Supposedly. Also the book 'Confessionals of a Rugby Mercenary' is interesting and talks about the playing within the sound of the church bells and the feeling playing at home.

by Brendan Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:42 pm

For me i like tight yoyo matches with a mixture of typss of scoring.

I dont want a 6-6 or 40-40

Saying that some low scoring are intense games rather then going through the motions

by geoff998rugby Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:59 pm

To win away from home you need to pick a strong team.

French teams play weaker teams away from home than they do at home

by TJ Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:03 pm

Aye - its very hard to define what a good entertaining game is. A tight match between two evenly matched teams both trying to attack perhaps. One of the best games I watched recently was the exeter toulon game IIRC. Exeter have consistently tried to attack and outscore sides in their games I have seen - not to defend and await errors.

I hate to see teams playing for scrum penalties. My pet hate.

by beshocked Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:11 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:To win away from home you need to pick a strong team.

French teams play weaker teams away from home than they do at home

French aren't the only ones guilty of this unfortunately.

It's interesting because I remember that both Leicester and Bath putting out weaker teams vs Sarries which were consequently thumped.

Robbed of two particularly interesting encounters which disappointed me.

TJ you might admire Exeter for doing that. I think it's tactically naive and foolish.

One of the most interesting games in my opinion so far this season was Saracens vs Toulouse, really looking forward to the return fixture this weekend.

by HammerofThunor Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:21 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:To win away from home you need to pick a strong team.

French teams play weaker teams away from home than they do at home

So are you saying the French teams don't flog their best players? But are instead rested for about half the games? Is this much different to the Irish teams being forced to rest players, except the French choose when to do it and reward their home fans by playing their best players then...or do the French teams flog their best players and they're just not able to win away from home (or another way of looking at it is that the French teams tend to win at home).

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:45 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:There should be more mismatches and bow outs in the 14 team T14 as well.

A points difference spread would be another good indicator of tight games. Are there any stats to back up the "no away wins" theory regarding T14..Ive heard it trotted out before but not with numbers.

Corker again on Sunday in the Jeff, 6 try last gasp draw between two top table sides.

Mean winning margin is very important (or at what it represents is). The most enjoyable games IMO are those that go to the wire. But Tigers are really a top table side now are they?

Out of curiosity what 'stats' do people think are relevant when talking about 'exciting' leagues? We're all sensible enough to know that the biggest motivator for this is personal involvement. If your team plays in a league you're more interested in it, result in other games can effect your team, etc. But what about the more tangible things?

We have the number of tries (represented by mean number of tries per game).
Competative (mean winning margin)
Keeping things 'fresh' (different teams in playoffs/final/winning)

The freshness onbe was interesting ... I remember a years or so back doing stats that showed theres more variety at the top of the table in the Jeff than the Collin despite the myth that its "always won by the same people" (not cheeky comment elsewhere regarding Tigers current position!)

Of course its not that long ago we were all decrying the Super Sanzar tournament on the grounds there were so many tries it proved they werent bothering to tackle.

Stats cant tell the whole picture, but they can give indications.
It doenst look like theres much disparity in tries scored, or winning margins in the leagues.
How many defenders are beaten? How close are the tables? How many minutes is the ball in active play? How many Mike Tindalls does the league employ? Howe many lead changes? All relevant to some extent.
Kick/Pass/Run ratios another one.

by LeinsterFan4life Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:45 pm

The only players in the Fench league that are "flogged" are the ones that have to play international matches as well as league games because of the amount of test matches a year.

Just like the only players the Irish provinces rest are the Irish internationals.

by HammerofThunor Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:47 pm

I think because the Tigers were there every year it showed little competativeness, but the opposition in the final has changed significantly. Saints, Harlequins, Sarries, Sarries, Irish?, Gloucester?, er can't even guess now.

by HammerofThunor Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:50 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The only players in the Fench league that are "flogged" are the ones that have to play international matches as well as league games because of the amount of test matches a year.

Just like the only players the Irish provinces rest are the Irish internationals.

OK so the Irish teams flog the non-internationals because the IRFU doesn't care about them? So the French based players are flogged in the non-internationals due to the number of internationals being played? Perhaps we need to reduce the number of internationals that are working our players so hard. Or perhaps limit the number of international games that are played by each player.

by beshocked Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:54 pm

To be honest I have been quite disappointed by the AP this season. Not as competitive as in previous years in my opinion.

Sure it's nice to see one's team do well but so far Sarries and Saints have built a significant lead as the top two so big it's very difficult for them to be caught.

Nice to see a resurgence in fortunes from Bath but Gloucester have really gone off the boil, Wasps and London Irish are not doing well. Leicester are going through a rough patch in the league. Worcester look to be relegated already.

by LeinsterFan4life Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:56 pm

It depends on what you think flogged is. Non Irish internationals are not flogged because they only play around 22 odd games a year.

The whole season needs to be restructured. I don't think we can reduce the number of internationals because the unions need the money.

by HammerofThunor Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:09 pm

Don't most French sides only play around 32 games a year (max) with 6 of those being in the Amlin for most of the sides. It would be interesting to do a really look at the number of games played to see if there is much of a difference and for what class of players. It's something that has been doing the rounds for years. Much like the 'Irish teams use the Pro12 as a practice competition'. I wonder if there is a shred of truth in this one.

by Sin é Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:21 pm

Ronan O'Gara in Irish Examiner last Friday - well worth a read.

His comments on the Top 14:

Ronan O'Gara wrote:In France, the Top 14 is an incredibly difficult league, but the standard of rugby is very average. It’s a slog, it’s combat every week, 28 games excluding Europe. You’re going out on soft pitches against big packs every week. It’s attrition. Whatever coach can devise a phase game in France will be the best coach. Everything is occupation, ie field position.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/ronan-ogara/ronan-ogara-ronan-ogara-someone-will-always-fill-your-shoes-254172.html

by HammerofThunor Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:30 pm

It was a good read. EDIT: Thanks Ale

by LeinsterFan4life Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:34 pm

Sin e did you see the article on the Score where Johnny Sexton's brother (who plays for Auch in the Pro D2) talks about the French league?

He mentions how all he is doing is bulking up and talks about the attritional nature of the league.

by Brendan Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:44 pm

I think we in europe will not progress until we can bring on both forwards and backs.

The T14 try to do a 13 man forward team with one kicker and one runner.

The Jeff seems to be moving more to a backs based lets run it abit more.

The Rabo is probably simillar.

NZ are the best beacuse they can match teams phyiscally and yet run the ball well with anyone.

NH answer is wales who use fitness and strenght and not smarts and come up short.

We should all try and have packs like the french but demand that they be mobile. And not have backs who can run with the ball but without it are speed bumps

Rant over

by TJ Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:48 pm

My view the Rabo has a more attacking bias - but its maybe one eyed. teams try to win generally rather than trying not to lose

by **Notch** Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:29 pm

The quality week to week isn't that great in any NH leagues- which is why it would be such a damn shame if the Heineken Cup went as generally its a step up in terms of quality- and the Top14 is no different but there is a particular emphasis on attritional rugby. The league is filled with grizzled packs who know how to win ugly but the skill levels are often pretty low although there is the odd team who can light things up every once in a while.

by nathan Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:58 pm

beshocked wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:To win away from home you need to pick a strong team.

French teams play weaker teams away from home than they do at home

French aren't the only ones guilty of this unfortunately.

It's interesting because I remember that both Leicester and Bath putting out weaker teams vs Sarries which were consequently thumped.

Robbed of two particularly interesting encounters which disappointed me.

TJ you might admire Exeter for doing that. I think it's tactically naive and foolish.

One of the most interesting games in my opinion so far this season was Saracens vs Toulouse, really looking forward to the return fixture this weekend.

Leicester haven't been able to put their first choice backs out all season, that isn't through choice.

by Nematode Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:41 pm

by beshocked Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:17 am

nathan wrote:
beshocked wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:To win away from home you need to pick a strong team.

French teams play weaker teams away from home than they do at home

French aren't the only ones guilty of this unfortunately.

It's interesting because I remember that both Leicester and Bath putting out weaker teams vs Sarries which were consequently thumped.

Robbed of two particularly interesting encounters which disappointed me.

TJ you might admire Exeter for doing that. I think it's tactically naive and foolish.

One of the most interesting games in my opinion so far this season was Saracens vs Toulouse, really looking forward to the return fixture this weekend.

Leicester haven't been able to put their first choice backs out all season, that isn't through choice.

I do understand that. I was referring more to Leicester leaving out/not starting Salvi,Cole,Ayerza,Waldrom and T.Youngs. In contrast it was perhaps the strongest backline you could field. It was Cockerill's decision to leave out/not start most of his pack who were fit.

by **Notch** Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:38 am

Funny thing; listening to the Second Captains podcast on the Irish times website, Bernard Jackman (coach at Grenoble) gets a lot of stick from the players there because he does his video analysis, his does all his tactical planning and detail and preparation during the week, and the French players think this is hilarious. As far as they're concerned if they're at home they'll get psyched up emotionally and do the business and if they're away they'll probably lose. It's very hard to get them interested in tactics and planning during the week.

by HammerofThunor Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:40 am

Thank

for that

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:38 pm

http://www.espn.co.uk/france-top-14-2013-14/rugby/story/211393.html

by HammerofThunor Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:07 pm

Laporte wrote:The Top 14 is crap and everyone is bored stiff.

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