Success for Joe Schmidt as Ireland coach?

First topic message reminder :

Something strange seems to be happening amongst the Irish supporters on here. Rather than the usual "Why has the coach chosen X instead of Y?" Or "Why is A still in the squad?" or "Why are there so few from my provincial team?" ... the discussion seems to centre on which of the players in the squad will be on the Wolfhounds team and which in the Ireland 6Ns team. One gets the impression of (almost) universal approval of the squad chosen.

So, I want to ask another question.

Over the period between now and the end of RWC15, what does Ireland under Joe Schmidt have to achieve for YOU to consider the appointment of Schmidt as head coach to have been a successful one?

Simple question. Your answer can be in terms of final table position in 6Ns; Triple Crowns; Champions of 6Ns; QF, SF, F or Winners of RWC15; clean sweep in AIs - whatever you want. How would YOU gauge his appointment a success?

Notch wrote:

Scratch wrote:this is not that hard to grasp….he is still eligible to play now isn't he and he shouldn't be picked because he is not available for RWC 2015, IMO setting his own retirement at end of this season cornered Schmidt into playing him whatever. Gatland knows he is past it, most people who follow rugby do, but his vanity seems to outweigh Ireland's need to get a new centre combo pre RWC.

Got it?

As has been pointed out, it's Schmidt who has asked him to stay on for another year not BOD who has decided to stay on despite not really being wanted.

BOD is not bigger than Ireland but neither is the 2015 RWC bigger than anything else... after this Six Nations we have a summer tour to Argentina, 3 Autumn Internationals, another Six Nations, another summer tour and several warm-up matches before the RWC.

I don't think we should be looking at this Six Nations as a dress rehearsal for the RWC as we have many, many tests after it to do that. I think using the RWC as our yardstick for selection atm would be rather premature. If BOD is poor in the first few games of the 6N he should be dropped. But RWC 2015 has nothing to do with it.

Fair play and well put. I agree 6 Nation is not a dress rehearsal, until that is , it is a dress rehearsal - Italy and France in your pool

Notch wrote:
In terms of process;

1) Increase number of offloads made
2) Greatly decrease the amount of time it takes to clear the ruck and get the ball out
3) Increase the amount of time the ball is in play during our possession

I'd add a couple more to the process:

- improve strikerate in opposition 22 by at least 50% - there was a period a couple years ago where it felt Ireland were converting most opportunities...
- increase tries scored from turnovers by at least 20 % year on year - our turnover ability is good but need to increase the amount of tries scored from it. That is from anywhere in the pitch.
- kicking game - needs to be more accurate and aimless/too short/too long reduced.

Simple, win games and tournaments, win away from home against France or any of the sanzar teams etc.

if he comes 3rd or4th in the 6ns this year we will probably have seen yet another false dawn/god

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

JS asked BoD to stay on,again this has been widely reported in the rugby media and how anyone with enough interest in the game to participate on a rugby forum doesn't know this is astonishing to me.You and Scratch are ill informed about the whole situation.

I was perfectly well aware that it had been reported in the media that JS asked BOD to stay on.  Personally I have had enough experience of said media to know that there are many ways the conversation between BOD and JS could have gone and for it to have been reported that JS had asked BOD to stay for another year.  I do not know (and nor does anyone on here because none of us was privy to the conversation) if JS called BOD into his office and said "Please Brian, I think Ireland are in a bit of a fix, will you stay on for another year, until I sort out the OC position?" or whether the conversation took some other form which resulted in the media reports.  Be that as it may, I think it was a pretty ropey decision.  BOD has been on the wane for some time.  I have watched him and greatly admired him for many many years.  I was beyond thrilled when he dived over at the base of the ruck for the try in Cardiff 2009.  He has in his career performed many such miracles for Ireland and Leinster and time after time I have cheered along as an Ireland and with Leinster supporters.

However, his form this season has been quite rubbish, at least by his standards.  One of his greatest skills was popping up in unlikely positions to pull the fat out of the fire for his team.  He really isn't doing that anymore.  He was also, despite his small size (relative to many of the behemoths which populate the Centre positions in rugby today) a fearsome tackler and his team could rely on him to put his man down.  His stats in the HEC and International games this season make dispiriting reading. He has played in 7 such games (he missed rounds 1 & 2 of the HEC).

So far he has scored 1 try with 2 assists; run 147 m beating 7 defenders; 4 clean breaks; 7 offloads; 7 turnovers; made 23 tackles and missed 12; and conceded 2 penalties.

It is not particularly encouraging when a player famed for his tackling misses 1 in 3. Last February against Wales he made 15 and missed 3 tackles!! Looking back to the year 2011, BOD started 10 games for Ireland and was sub for one of the WC warm-up games against France. In those eleven games he made 66 tackles and missed five. That was a phenomenal record. This was one of the things I so admired about BOD - he was superb in defence. His record this season so far is not showing anything like that consistency.

I find it very sad to see a great player leaving the field which he graced so magnificantly for so many years with such poor performances.

KiaRose wrote:stats in the HEC and International games this season make dispiriting reading.  He has played in 7 such games (he missed rounds 1 & 2 of the HEC).

So far he has scored 1 try with 2 assists; run 147 m beating 7 defenders; 4 clean breaks; 7 offloads; 7 turnovers; made 23 tackles and missed 12; and conceded 2 penalties.

It is not particularly encouraging when a player famed for his tackling misses 1 in 3.  Last February against Wales he made 15 and missed 3 tackles!!  Looking back to the year 2011, BOD started 10 games for Ireland and was sub for one of the WC warm-up games against France.  In those eleven games he made 66 tackles and missed five.  That was a phenomenal record.  This was one of the things I so admired about BOD - he was superb in defence.  His record this season so far is not showing anything like that consistency.

I find it very sad to see a great player leaving the field which he graced so magnificantly for so many years with such poor performances.

Yeah, having watched him in most games this season its hard to disagree with this.

Every aspect of his game seems to be deserting him now, even since the Lions tour he seems to have gone backwards..... I'm hoping the great man is pacing himself for a big finish to the season but right now he looks a pale shadow of the player he was as recent 2 seasons ago, let alone at his peak.

I would say pick Brian O'Driscoll against Scotland and have his Luke Fitzgerald ready on the bench. If he is going badly, hook him at 60 mins and put in Fitz.

Then the decision can be made about BOD. But he is still potentially very capable of stepping it up for the occasional game. If he doesn't fair enough, but for me it's more of a risk to miss out on those last few one-off big games before the light dies than it is to not.

KiaRose wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

JS asked BoD to stay on,again this has been widely reported in the rugby media and how anyone with enough interest in the game to participate on a rugby forum doesn't know this is astonishing to me.You and Scratch are ill informed about the whole situation.

I was perfectly well aware that it had been reported in the media that JS asked BOD to stay on.  Personally I have had enough experience of said media to know that there are many ways the conversation between BOD and JS could have gone and for it to have been reported that JS had asked BOD to stay for another year.  I do not know (and nor does anyone on here because none of us was privy to the conversation) if JS called BOD into his office and said "Please Brian, I think Ireland are in a bit of a fix, will you stay on for another year, until I sort out the OC position?" or whether the conversation took some other form which resulted in the media reports.  Be that as it may, I think it was a pretty ropey decision.  BOD has been on the wane for some time.  I have watched him and greatly admired him for many many years.  I was beyond thrilled when he dived over at the base of the ruck for the try in Cardiff 2009.  He has in his career performed many such miracles for Ireland and Leinster and time after time I have cheered along as an Ireland and with Leinster supporters.

However, his form this season has been quite rubbish, at least by his standards.  One of his greatest skills was popping up in unlikely positions to pull the fat out of the fire for his team.  He really isn't doing that anymore.  He was also, despite his small size (relative to many of the behemoths which populate the Centre positions in rugby today) a fearsome tackler and his team could rely on him to put his man down.  His stats in the HEC and International games this season make dispiriting reading.  He has played in 7 such games (he missed rounds 1 & 2 of the HEC).

So far he has scored 1 try with 2 assists; run 147 m beating 7 defenders; 4 clean breaks; 7 offloads; 7 turnovers; made 23 tackles and missed 12; and conceded 2 penalties.

It is not particularly encouraging when a player famed for his tackling misses 1 in 3.  Last February against Wales he made 15 and missed 3 tackles!!  Looking back to the year 2011, BOD started 10 games for Ireland and was sub for one of the WC warm-up games against France.  In those eleven games he made 66 tackles and missed five.  That was a phenomenal record.  This was one of the things I so admired about BOD - he was superb in defence.  His record this season so far is not showing anything like that consistency.

I find it very sad to see a great player leaving the field which he graced so magnificantly for so many years with such poor performances.

I have no problem with your assessment of BoD,I agree he's nowhere near the player he was and Henshaw should get a go in the 6N and overtake him if he plays well.However the post you quoted was in direct response to the assertion that BoD had emotionally blackmailed JS into picking him which is a disgraceful thing to say,it sullies the good name of both people as JS is certainly strong enough to drop BoD if he feels it is the right thing to do yet you don't conisder this.

Also here is a link to a direct quote from JS saying he would like BoD to stay on,so it's not just a report from the media as you say.

http://www.thescore.ie/brian-odriscoll-retirement-891741-May2013/

Joe Schmidt wrote:“I’d like him to certainly think positively about staying on for another season and maybe beyond because he’s certainly in pretty good shape.”

ASLS

As I said, we have no idea how the conversation went which resulted in the media reports. The quote in The Score is no more nor less than I would expect ANY coach to make. I would have lost any respect for JS if he had said anything different once it was clear that BOD was staying on. A coach who bad-mouths his players, especially those held in great respect by his fellow players and the fans is not worthy of anything.

I stand by what I say. BOD is NOT the player that he was, no one seems to be denying that. I find it very sad to see him carrying on not only past his best, but past making a real difference to the team as he has done so often in the past. I thought Gatland had done us all a favour by dropping him, although I did not agree with that decision (I thought it was a Wales decision rather than a Lions one and I did not think Jonathan Davies had done anyhting on tour to justify his promotion over BOD, but that is a discussion that is well over). By dropping him, Gatland showed that he was droppable, JS is giving the indication that he does not entirely agree.

If I have to retract these words I will do so with pleasure. There was a post in this forum after the Ireland ABs match "Ireland moving forward". As it was a statement rather than a question I did not respond. However, I was hoping that a new coach would start building a team over the AIs - there was nothing at stake in those games. But this did not happen. We saw the same problems in the Ireland of the AIs - inconsistency, focus on one game, inability to close out a game. I can't blame the coach entirely but he must shoulder some of the blame because although he did bring in some new players, he did nothing which seemed to change the mindset of those in green. And this is our area of greatest vulnerability. We have seen it with the provincial teams. Before Cheika took Leinster to their first HEC victory, they were taunted with the sobriquet of "Ladyboys". Not kind, but they were decidedly weak, mentally. Cheika instilled the belief that they too could win the HEC just as Ulster and Munster had done before them. He created a team and mindset which then swept all before them in Europe, not once but three times. Cheika deserves a huge amount of credit for what he did for the province. Schmidt was very lucky - he came in and took over a wining team. (and has been canonised as a result as the greatest coach since ...)

A genuine question here. With all this talk of having to play Henshaw or Cave ahead of ODriscoll due to their form currently being better, how can it be said that Payne is the 'apparent' heir to the Ireland 13 jersey when he can't even start ahead of Cave at 13 for Ulster?

I'd I've missed a trick, cut me down by all means.

Ulster have Cave at 13 and no one else at 15 (of any experience). Payne is primarily a 15 but even at 13 is probably better than the others.

Ireland have players at 15 but not at 13, so hes talked about at 13.
Ulster have players at 13 but not at 15, so he plays 15.

Ah okay, it struck me after I posted that the situation may be as a result of a lack of adequate cover at 15 alright. Cheers.

Kiarose - it's not a myth, it's fact.  O'Driscoll prompted Schmidt to take the Irish job and Schmidt in turn coaxed O'Driscoll to stay on for one more year.  It's not a misquote, it's not a coach being courteous after the fact.  Schmidt, with his own voice, on TV, without being prompted, was giddy when O'Driscoll was cheered by the home crowd last season with chants of "One more Year".  He said jokingly, "I got the crowd to do that".  It was a joke but his intention was serious, he said he was put under pressure for the Irish job and he was happy that O'Driscoll was now getting the pressure.
 
O'Driscoll is trying to get to the Six Nations.  It's not a secret that his body isn't as responsive to a heavy duty game one week and another heavy duty game the week after, and heavy duty the week after that.  It just doesn't recover as quickly...happens to us all.  But he knows it and Schmidt knows it.  The goal for him is to tick over through the Provincials and be as ready as possible for full on effort come the 6N.

Schmidt knows him more than any of us and we know him enough to know he's in his last months, with a few personal goals left.  One of them will probably be very selfish and run along the lines of trying to prove that he went out as Best - not second or third best.  We all know how his retirement mind must be going right now and if any of us seriously think he won't be out to make a mark on the 6N then we haven't learned much about him.

So he and Schmidt will probably have talked.  If he's not in the right form, Schmidt will be warning him about that in private.  If he is cruising through the season and minding himself, then Schmidt will probably be in on that too; and his fitness people and Leinster's fitness people will have been 'managing' O'Driscoll through the season.

It's no secret that he needs 'managing'.  He admits it, Schmidt admits it - it's his last months and he wants to go out strongly not with a whimper.

So, I really do think talk about which 13 is 'in form' is really not facing the reality that everyone in their heart of hearts knows, and certainly his rivals for the position know it - O'Driscoll is being micro-managed.  You can't talk about 'form' when a player is being managed through a season, with specific seasonal goals in mind.

The weird thing is he seems to have played a lot more this season than he normally would. I of have thought that they would have wrapped him in even more cotton wool than usual. Is it a case of trying to play him into form? Or maybe he just wants to be out there as much as possible given its his last year?

I think that's the case golden - I think he wants to play as much as possible...however as I've said previously this playing week in week out seems to be exposing the frailties in his game that weren't there before.

Fly I accept what you are saying and for years I've defended O'Driscoll through thick and thin, even his performances on the Lions tour were much better than his critics have said.... but this season 1 game apart were he was sensational he has been awful at times.... missed tackles, low work rate, sliced kicks, poor decisions in attack and defence.... Unless he turns it around I can't see him playing until the end of the season at provincial level let alone play for Ireland, he's been cringe worthy bad at times. I hope he's holding something back because he's been all over the shop at times.

Golden wrote:The weird thing is he seems to have played a lot more this season than he normally would. I of have thought that  they would have wrapped him in even more cotton wool than usual. Is it a case of trying to play him into form? Or maybe he just wants to be out there as much as possible given its his last year?

I'd say it's a whole new approach that has been hinted at by our new fitness and conditioning head - a role we took a long time to fill, as some of you will remember the debates here about it.  
The cottonwool policy is only helpful if it is used in conjunction with science  - as in if and when players need rest, they should get it.  But otherwise, distinct alloted rest periods that haven't been adopted on scientific grounds (ie analysing each player independently and working out how best to utilise that player through a year) is allegedly not the way it will be done anymore.

So I'd assume Schmidt and the Irish fitness and conditioning head have devised new methods to keep players both fresh but also not overly rested - something that seems to have proved costly in the past with group injuries hitting us just when we least need them.

I hope that's true fly. The player management thing has been annoying for the provinces fans, annoying the players as some have said in the media, and worst of all, our injury rate has definitely gone up since it came into force. Most of Kidney's tenure was blighted by one injury crisis after another. Whereas up until 2009 we were the most injury free team in Europe.

KiaRose wrote:ASLS

As I said, we have no idea how the conversation went which resulted in the media reports.  The quote in The Score is no more nor less than I would expect ANY coach to make.  I would have lost any respect for JS if he had said anything different once it was clear that BOD was staying on.  A coach who bad-mouths his players, especially those held in great respect by his fellow players and the fans is not worthy of anything.

I stand by what I say.  BOD is NOT the player that he was, no one seems to be denying that.  I find it very sad to see him carrying on not only past his best, but past making a real difference to the team as he has done so often in the past.  I thought Gatland had done us all a favour by dropping him, although I did not agree with that decision (I thought it was a Wales decision rather than a Lions one and I did not think Jonathan Davies had done anyhting on tour to justify his promotion over BOD, but that is a discussion that is well over).  By dropping him, Gatland showed that he was droppable, JS is giving the indication that he does not entirely agree.

If I have to retract these words I will do so with pleasure.  There was a post in this forum after the Ireland ABs match "Ireland moving forward".  As it was a statement rather than a question I did not respond.  However, I was hoping that a new coach would start building a team over the AIs - there was nothing at stake in those games.  But this did not happen.  We saw the same problems in the Ireland of the AIs - inconsistency, focus on one game, inability to close out a game.  I can't blame the coach entirely but he must shoulder some of the blame because although he did bring in some new players, he did nothing which seemed to change the mindset of those in green. And this is our area of greatest vulnerability.  We have seen it with the provincial teams.  Before Cheika took Leinster to their first HEC victory, they were taunted with the sobriquet of "Ladyboys".  Not kind, but they were decidedly weak, mentally.  Cheika instilled the belief that they too could win the HEC just as Ulster and Munster had done before them.  He created a team and mindset which then swept all before them in Europe, not once but three times.  Cheika deserves a huge amount of credit for what he did for the province.  Schmidt was very lucky - he came in and took over a wining team.  (and has been canonised as a result as the greatest coach since ...)  

When did JS indicate BoD is unstoppable,also Gatland had Davies as an alternative option while Schmidt doesn't have anyone of that quality to replace BoD yet.

Your last line about Schmidt is also a very poor analysis of what happened at Leinster.Cheika deserves credit for the work he did but you'd think Schmidt just piggybacked off his efforts.In 2009 Leinster scraped through the group with 4 wins,then won a tough game against Quine by a point which again could have gone either way,then a great performance against Munster in the semi-finals before a good win in the final against a Leicester team that had to play the Premiership final the week before while we rested up.Having lost 2 Rabo finals the week after winning the HC I know how tough that was on Leicester.2010 we again only won 4 group matches before fluking the quarter final when Brock James had a meltdown,then Toulouse comfortably beat us in the semi-final.
We were never the best side in Europe under Cheika but in Schmidt's 1st year he made no major signing except for bringing Feel on board to improve the scrum.We then won 5 out of 6 in one of the toughest groups possible before beating Leicester,Toulouse and Northampton in the knockout stages.All well deserved victories with no lucky breaks and we got to the Rabo final in between.In his first season he turned us into by far the best team in Europe without any changes in personnel,that's why he was canonized by Leinster fans.

Im no expert but looking at players down through the years it looks like you need to get the right balance between playing and not playing.


Players need games to get up to speed. TOD at the weekend looked much sharper and fitter than his previous games since coming back from injury. That's nothing new.


My main point is about injuries. I think playing regularly toughens up the body. It can take more knocks and strain without getting injured. How many times do we see players pick up injury after injury straight after recovering from injuries! Felix Jones and Luke Fitz are 2 examples. They seem to be going well now but its crucial they avoid injury in the few games after coming back.


The body also needs time to recover. Playing none stop for months means there's no recovery time and that's when injuries are also likely.


Ireland got the balance right in the EOS era but in the last few years there's been something wrong. Hopefully the new method will pay off. You can't avoid injuries but you can give players a better chance of avoiding them.

Serious question..what would be the feeling about Schmidt if we come third or fourth in the 6ns with a couple of dodgy wins and poor away performances against France and England?

ME-109 wrote:Serious question..what would be the feeling about Schmidt if we come third or fourth in the 6ns with a couple of dodgy wins and poor away performances against France and England?

I'll be very disappointed,2nd place is an okay result this year but I think we should be aiming to win it.Even if we have an injury crisis and do worse I expect a huge upturn in performance,Schmidt should get the best out of the players he has available,that's what I want to see.

I don't see him winning it this year but he needs to win the 6 Nations. I think you could argue that the depth of Ireland's talent is even greater now then in years gone by. Only a few areas where they are truely feiced when injuries arise.

I would be happy with three comprehensive home wins and one good performance away. I am a fan of Schmidt but i take the canonisation with a pinch of salt.

What i believe he did for Leinster was to get the forwards playing a more dynamic game, if we see more of that in the 6ns with obvious progression then i would be happy.

ME-109 wrote:I would be happy with three comprehensive home wins and one good performance away. I am a fan of Schmidt but i take the canonisation with a pinch of salt.

What i believe he did for Leinster was to get the forwards playing a more dynamic game, if we see more of that in the 6ns with obvious progression then i would be happy.

He did a lot more than that,he improved our rucking and passing,he made us clinical.We saw the first signs of those qualities in the first half against NZ and I expect further improvements.I'll be honest and say I think we'll win with a grand slam,I'm going to be putting my money where my mouth is on that.If SoB was fit I'd be certain we'd do it.

Schmidt has a pass this year but anything less than 3rd will be seen as a failure and missed opportunity, his is a unique situation because Ireland's RWC group has Italy and France so if he beats those two this year, Scotland and one of England or Wales he will be regarded as having been very successful. Next year's 6 Nations will be a proper dress rehearsal and i expect a huge showing from ireland then but not this year.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:I would be happy with three comprehensive home wins and one good performance away. I am a fan of Schmidt but i take the canonisation with a pinch of salt.

What i believe he did for Leinster was to get the forwards playing a more dynamic game, if we see more of that in the 6ns with obvious progression then i would be happy.

He did a lot more than that,he improved our rucking and passing,he made us clinical.We saw the first signs of those qualities in the first half against   NZ and I expect further improvements.I'll be honest and say I think we'll win with a grand slam,I'm going to be putting my money where my mouth is on that.If SoB was fit I'd be certain we'd do it.

I'm quietly confident too of a championship win. Schmidt is a proven winner, hell get the best out of the squad I think, its his first 6 nations so the players will be extremely motivated, he is tactically excellent and after their last game the players believe they can do something good.


Ironically just when ireland have their strongest squad possibly ever, the centre has gone from a strength to looking weak.

ME-109 wrote:I would be happy with three comprehensive home wins and one good performance away. I am a fan of Schmidt but i take the canonisation with a pinch of salt.

I'd be satisfied with this - happy with 4 wins and over the moon with 5.

Honestly at this stage it's about the bigger picture for me, that we are moving in the right direction towards the RWC, more than the results.

That said the results and performances are a key guage in terms of where we are at and with only a year and a half to go Schmidt needs to show we have something to build on.... anything less than 3 wins would be a bit of an omnishambles.

Id be happy with 5 wins or four if we win the championship. Why be happy with anything less?

ME-109 wrote:Serious question..what would be the feeling about Schmidt if we come third or fourth in the 6ns with a couple of dodgy wins and poor away performances against France and England?

Third wouldn't be a disaster coming from where we were last season.  Third wouldn't be a disaster when we admit to ourselves that a good few of our opponents are very stiff International outfits with good pedigree.  It doesn't matter how good Ireland gets in the immediate future, these teams with pedigree already up and running towards the WC (Wales, England - perhaps even France this season) won't be just rolling over and playing dead.  Gatland is much too good to play dead.  So too is Lancaster.

Third would be a good result - back in the correct part of the field at least.

Fourth, fifth or sixth?  Disaster... which intensifies the lower we come in.  No ifs, ands or buts from me.  We have the players good enough not to be cruising at the bottom and if we're there at the end then Schmidt will have explaining to do.

Performance though is the key for me.  If I see an Irish team hungry for each and every game, charged for the battle (each and every game), playing an aggressive, in-your-face, attack-minded gameplan for most of the 80 mins of each and every game;  if I see real and genuine patterns in our attempts to play a sharp, expansive modern game, then that will fill me with confidence that the players are ready to do their duty again in an Ireland shirt - with HONESTY this time, rather than speeches before or after a game.

So an honest performance on a consistent level through all five games will be what I most want to see.  Position above third after that? - well, I'll take anything we get and be delighted.  But third, and some really strong rugby played, will be enough for now.

Why do we insist on underselling ourselves? Do the English have a better squad of players and coaches than Ireland? Not really, so if they are aiming for a grand slam why shouldnt we?

They've got a forward pack that can annihilate ours of the face of the earth and >90% test kicker so yeah that's a good start guns, considering we are playing them at Twickenham.

It's all very well talking ourselves up but the recent results don't back it up, its us with it all to prove not them.

GunsGerms wrote:Why do we insist on underselling ourselves? Do the English have a better squad of players and coaches than Ireland? Not really, so if they are aiming for a grand slam why shouldnt we?

Why does an opinion seem to carry the weight of a prediction?

All I do is opinion, Guns  I'm trying the prediction game in other avenues of my life, but I'm not a millionaire yet. For now, all I do is opinion. 

Grandslam with Bells on would be my ideal result.  10 tries against Wales.  6 against England.  Destroy and humiliate France.  That's an ideal I wouldn't mind happening.

That's not an opinion though - neither is it a prediction.  It's hope.

Saying I'd be satisfied with 3rd (as we try to achieve first) is an opinion.  If we win outright, I'll be over the moon - but saying I'll only be satisfied with an outright win won't make Ireland stonger, faster, smarter or fitter.  The team will do what it does and I'll be right behind them as they undoubtedly go into the 6N with a mindset to win it.  But me - I'll have a week or two of gloom if we reach third.  But when I've settled down and think of the big picture, I'll be satisfied with third (for now) if it meant real progress on the field and players back playing in a Ireland shirt with genuine passion.

A specific goal is that we win in France. If we actually achieved that it would be a progression. People forget that the draw a couple of years ago was actually something.Even though we won 10 years or so ago there when BOD scored his hattrick that was against a third string French team ravaged by injuries.

That with Three home wins and a win against England = Grand slam...simple...

rodders wrote:They've got a forward pack that can annihilate ours of the face of the earth and >90% test kicker so yeah that's a good start guns, considering we are playing them at Twickenham.  

It's all very well talking ourselves up but the recent results don't back it up, its us with it all to prove not them.

No they have a unit of forwards that are more organised, consistent and better drilled than ours. They dont actually have better forwards than us at all in my opinion, except in the second row possibly. There is a difference. I dont see why this cant be addressed.

ME-109 wrote:

That (France) with Three home wins and a win against England = Grand slam...simple...

5 wins = Grand slam???

Oh yeah then, that's doable... I thought we had to win all our games, which would have been a tougher ask.   

On a more serious note: I agree that France is a big one. We have to psychologically get over ourselves (and them) as regards meeting them and always coming away less than satisfied. But then again... if it's only them and Italy we beat this year then that's still not much progress - they're not exactly consider a top dollar side lately.

Fly...you are getting more pedantic than usual (if that is at all possible) lately. I think you need to step back from the HC/ERC/BT/SKY discussion (although I have found it entertaining). Yourself and Sin É deserve a medal for perseverance.

Not pedantic at all, DOD...just a fragment of a thought that Ireland is more than capable of thrashing France in France and then losing equally epically to Italy in Dublin.

No other side right now does that kinda show better than us.

As regard the HEC one.  Well it keeps my instincts sharp.  It's a boring circle but sometimes I get bored and it's a doodle pip of a debate to come out on top on when you're bored.  

But I've been away for a month too, so I haven't exactly been hogging the limelight over there either.

France the big one? ... they are a useless shower and there to be taken out. Come off it lads.

England are the team to beat along with Wales. The fixtures make beating the latter considerably more realistic than the former.

rodders wrote:France the big one? ... they are a useless shower and there to be taken out. Come off it lads.

England are the team to beat along with Wales. The fixtures make beating the latter considerably more realistic than the former.

Simple Rodders....so simple that it took a major injury crisis for them for us to beat them once in 4 squillion years in Paris...

It took our injury crisis (come coaching crisis) for them to draw with us last year.

France have to prove themselves as much as we do. But like I've pedantically pointed out before: there is a strange correlation between our rises and slides with the French over 6N history. Which kinda means we might be better off hoping the French have a good run and have renewed belief.