New European cup. (Or whatever it's called) Qualification agreed? Part 2

A continuation of the previous thread. For everyone with more to say.

Part 300 more like.

I've not really been reading the previous threads. Can someone provide a summary of what's been discussed so far?

No more than 30,000 words please.

 

Internet threads, like history, repeat themselves. The first time in deadly earnest, the second time as self parody.

Cyril wrote:I've not really been reading the previous threads. Can someone provide a summary of what's been discussed so far?

No more than 30,000 words please.

PRL bad!

Counterpoint; Celts bad..?

Opinion; French bad! Make alliance with Celts/PRL*! PRL/Unions* left out in the cold! Apocalypse imminent!

Everyone but beshocked and quinsforever agrees Nigel Wray is a (MODERATOR REMOVES EXPLETIVE)

*Delete as appropriate

Don't know if its already been said but Welsh teams should join the AP league and if they get relegated should drop in to the English Championship league as it currently is. ERC have blown it and should wither away.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/17/saracens-nigel-wray-heineken-cup-tv-rugby

Nigel's latest wittering in the Guardian. Slavishly reported by Kitson. More of the same, but in summary;

- Clubs rule.
- PRL want total control
- We won't release club players for the RWC unless Unions pay mega bucks.

So same old. When are the RFU going to reel these guys back in?

Edit: Quite surprised that the Guardian given its political stance is completely in bed with the PRL on this one; strange bedfellows.

englandglory4ever wrote:Don't know if its already been said but Welsh teams should join the AP league and if they get relegated should drop in to the English Championship league as it currently is. ERC have blown it and should wither away.

  

Justified, My enemies enemy(News Corp)

It's quite amusing the number of people who've said something along the lines of "I usually like the Guardian but in this PRL business they are so biased" without stopping to think it all through.

It's also Sky vs. BT. And the Guardian are enemies of the Murdoch empire. That's why they're supporting the BT side. But I agree the Guardian and the PRL are an odd couple.

As are the Celtic Unions and Sky. Personally I would be very happy to be rid of Sky.

I mean there's a huge swath of rugby people who chafe under the inane rule of Stuart Barnes and Miles Harrison hoping one day someone will liberate us from Sky. And then BT come in and employ Austin Healey. It's like Hitler vs. Stalin all over again- NO EXAGGERATION!!1!

Sorry, forgive me, I'm a little bit giddy from Ulsters win   

Notch wrote:As are the Celtic Unions and Sky. Personally I would be very happy to be rid of Sky.

I mean there's a huge swath of rugby people who chafe under the inane rule of Stuart Barnes and Miles Harrison hoping one day someone will liberate us from Sky. And then BT come in and employ Austin Healey. It's like Hitler vs. Stalin all over again- NO EXAGGERATION!!1!

Sorry, forgive me, I'm a little bit giddy from Ulsters win   

I can put up with Healey, at least he knows he's being annoying. Barnes thinks he's being insightful yet he's talking a load of Love sacks.

nathan wrote:

Notch wrote:As are the Celtic Unions and Sky. Personally I would be very happy to be rid of Sky.

I mean there's a huge swath of rugby people who chafe under the inane rule of Stuart Barnes and Miles Harrison hoping one day someone will liberate us from Sky. And then BT come in and employ Austin Healey. It's like Hitler vs. Stalin all over again- NO EXAGGERATION!!1!

Sorry, forgive me, I'm a little bit giddy from Ulsters win   

I can put up with Healey, at least he knows he's being annoying. Barnes thinks he's being insightful yet he's talking a load of Love sacks.

,
To me that is out of the frying pan and into the fire, they are both abysmal, and to show no bias the best pundit on pay TV IMO is Will Greenwood, he does make mistakes as we all do, yet does not show National Bias, my tuppence worth

Barnes gets all the attention, but there is no one worse than Dewi Morris. Half Welsh, half English, but completely 5h1t.

cface wrote:Barnes gets all the attention, but there is no one worse than Dewi Morris.  Half Welsh, half English, but completely 5h1t.

Welcome back again   

Wonder how long it will be before this account is banned.

If true this is huge

Meanwhile, the IoS understands a draft accord for the Heineken Cup to continue for the next eight years was finalised in Dublin on Friday, with all the Six Nations unions and their clubs willing to sign except Premiership Rugby. The French clubs have committed to at least four years under their new licence agreement with the FFR.

The competition would continue to be run by a restructured European Rugby Cup Ltd with possibly a change of headquarters from Dublin to Geneva and a new name, although the word “European” is sacrosanct."

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/r...d-9069709.html

Geoff - its been obvious for a while that is what was happening. It what happens when you are isolated and have made enemies of everyone else. Next year is fairly well sorted. but still needs a bit of detail which cannot be made until we know for sure what the PRL are doing Future years are only in outline.

~As for the Guardian - I have read it for decades and the bias in the rugby reporting is laughable. I have to buy the Sunday Herald to even find out what happened in Edinburgh / Glasgow games

The big news there is the eRFU have committed to it.

That is a game changer

geoff999rugby wrote:If true this is huge

Meanwhile, the IoS understands a draft accord for the Heineken Cup to continue for the next eight years was finalised in Dublin on Friday, with all the Six Nations unions and their clubs willing to sign except Premiership Rugby. The French clubs have committed to at least four years under their new licence agreement with the FFR.

The competition would continue to be run by a restructured European Rugby Cup Ltd with possibly a change of headquarters from Dublin to Geneva and a new name, although the word “European” is sacrosanct."

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/r...d-9069709.html

Hope so. An eight year gap until this nonsense would be much better than a year.

Edit: does that mean the RFU are putting in the Championship sides?

I am not sure they have - reported differently in the torygraph

The Telegraph understands that the five unions of Wales, France, Ireland, Scotland and Italy have met again to discuss the 20-team tournament that they announced in late November after a summit in Dublin.

Once again the Rugby Football Union was not invited, and it suggests that things could be a little frosty on Tuesday at a scheduled Six Nations meeting.

It is thought that the five unions might meet again before then and there may be another announcement next week about their intentions for their 20-team tournament.

Well know the 5 unions met up a while back but nothing was reported on it. Monday after new year I think. The Telegraph one is nothing new. The IOS one is 'new' but could be completely made up.

TJ do you have a like to the Torygraph article

Does it specify the meting it is referring to as the IoS one does

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/10581789/English-clubs-frozen-out-again-as-row-over-European-club-rugby-heads-for-the-law-courts.html

It's says the negotiations haven't got anywhere. So either the IOS are making it up or Telegraph don't know about it.

geoff999rugby wrote:The big news there is the eRFU have committed to it.

That is a game changer

Who is this eRFU? Can we at least call them by their proper name

The difference is did the RFU agree to a deal with the 5N ? I doubt it personally

Well finally some encouraging news. As has been covered many (many, many) times in the past the question is whether the PRL can contractually come back into the fold.

I still don't believe they could be so naive in terms of business to have signed any document that could make them European rugby pariahs if their Plan A didn't work. It would be very stupid not to insist on some kind of get-out clause and while I don't exactly think they are geniuses, I certainly don't think they are that level of gormless.

I think the PRL could be that stupid. I think they totally misread the situation and thought everyone would jump at the chance to join the RCC. I also think they are perfectly capable of cutting off their noses to spite their faces and refusing to play even if there was no legal impediment

Could the RFU potentially enter the County teams as representatives? If the RFU have control of all of the players under the Aviva they could at least select County representative teams from a large player bases and they have the potential to be well supported.

I don't see the RFU forcing a split with the PRL in anyway - too scared of Wrays threat to bollix up the WC

The RFU don't have control over all the players below the premiership. They could, however, bring them in but it would require the championship sides agreeing (to the formation of country sides...why would they?). Also all the decent championship players tend to get headhunted by the premiership teams. They would be pretty poor teams, and I can't see the RFU wanting to take them on long term and contract better players.

TJ wrote:I don't see the RFU forcing a split with the PRL in anyway - too scared of Wrays threat to bollix up the WC

How are they going to bollix up the RWC? What can they do? Don't tell me you listen to suggestions he won't release players? They're contracted to until 2016 on top of the IRB regulations. The PRL have no hold over the RFU, it's the other way round. In a couple of years the RFU have to give the PRL TV right control again...or not, as they choose. Some people seem to mistake the RFU agreeing with the PRL with them being afraid of them because in their mind no-one could possible agree with them (a sign of a closed mind...  )

I thought it was a logical solution as County side already exsist. The RFU still run the county championship. Although I'm not sure what level the players representing Cornwall, Devon, Yorkshire etc are selected from.

Country level is below the championship I think. This is THE county side (so the best from the teams) and all are from outside the Championship anyway

http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/june/news-articles/110613_england_counties_belgium

HammerofThunor wrote:

TJ wrote:I don't see the RFU forcing a split with the PRL in anyway - too scared of Wrays threat to bollix up the WC

How are they going to bollix up the RWC? What can they do? Don't tell me you listen to suggestions he won't release players? They're contracted to until 2016 on top of the IRB regulations. The PRL have no hold over the RFU, it's the other way round. In a couple of years the RFU have to give the PRL TV right control again...or not, as they choose. Some people seem to mistake the RFU agreeing with the PRL with them being afraid of them because in their mind no-one could possible agree with them (a sign of a closed mind...  )

Wray has made a series of threats of differing sorts. I do not put it past him to make good on some of them.

" "If you've got a gun and you're not prepared to fire it, you haven't got a gun," he says bluntly, when asked if withholding players might be an option. "We don't want to do that but we're being put in a very difficult position. If we say we'll release all the players, the RFU would say: 'Great, we don't have to do anything.' We shouldn't be being put in that position. It's wrong."

HammerofThunor wrote:

TJ wrote:I don't see the RFU forcing a split with the PRL in anyway - too scared of Wrays threat to bollix up the WC

How are they going to bollix up the RWC? What can they do? Don't tell me you listen to suggestions he won't release players? They're contracted to until 2016 on top of the IRB regulations. The PRL have no hold over the RFU, it's the other way round. In a couple of years the RFU have to give the PRL TV right control again...or not, as they choose. Some people seem to mistake the RFU agreeing with the PRL with them being afraid of them because in their mind no-one could possible agree with them (a sign of a closed mind...  )

Hammer, surely there are no closed minds on this forum? I find it hard to believe that there are posters here who post based upon their own pre conceived ideas or about national stereotypes they might hold.   

Joking aside how do people see this now playing out? Myself I still think we'll see a competition with everyone in and I have always held that view, Now I've no idea how that will happen or how we'll all be watching it next season or if there'll be any quality players outside of France but I do think there'll be a proper European competition. Interesting also Hammer to read your comments about RFU/PRL balance of power - the RFU still have a lot to bargain with...

I think that what will happen is what I have said all along. a 5N european cup next year. the PRL clearly are not going to play within the agreement the rest have made.

Sorry, I've only been skimming these European threads for a couple of months, what part of the agreement made by other 5 do you think the PRL will not be able to live with when push come to shove?

stub wrote:Sorry, I've only been skimming these European threads for a couple of months, what part of the agreement made by other 5 do you think the PRL will not be able to live with when push come to shove?

I think the crux of it is the TV deal. The PRL have signed a deal with BT for >£100M that includes European games. The ERC deal i believe is with Sky (if it's been negotiated). I'm sure someone with a deeper understanding of the issue will correct me though.

Union control. Although in the interview from Wray in the guardian he is less belligerent on that point than in the past. The key factor is the 5 have realised the PRL will not compromise having made as much compromise as they are able to do so ( the 5 unions) and the PRL dismissed it instantly. Thus the 5 unions have gone on and made an agreement, the PRL have a take it or leave it choice and will leave it

i dont put much stock in the last two paragraphs of an Independent article which was mainly about the salary cap. If the "draft" that was "agreed" on friday had been real news, it would have been the main article, not a vague throwaway at the end of another piece.

the IRB is unlikely to allow the 5N to lock in an 8 year deal that freezes out the RFU and PRL clubs. lapasset explicitly stated this in Nov/Dec.

I suspect it was a misprint and should have read 5 not 6

Thanks Coleman/TJ. I still think there must  be some wriggle room in TV negotiations - especially if next year's comp is a temp affair although I can see that IOS is saying it could be for longer. Regarding governance the bit certain clubs seem to be fixated on is the commercial side to me and so I wonder if there is some middle ground there too - I hope so. That said if English clubs aren't in Europe next year I'll suddenly have lots more time at weekends and I'll save some sports subscription money too at least     Wouldn't make up for it though.

And TJ I do understand the frustration about the fact that a range of compromises were made to PRL/LNR only for there to be more issues to be dealt with. I would have gone for the ERC proposals at that point and then began to negotiate for more during the life of the agreement (if I were of that mindset). Shame it wasn't sorted then IMO.

The rabo nations compromised as far as they possibly could, the French compromised to meet them. the PRL refused to budge an inch.

Really nothing new tho and lots of surmise, guess work and PR flackery inthe press

TJ wrote:The rabo nations compromised as far as they possibly could, the French compromised to meet them. the PRL refused to budge an inch.

They may yet though...

Indeed they may. I cannot see Wray going back on what he has said to that extent tho.

It can't all be about Wray - there will be others who can influence I would think.

Wray is the stumbling block.  i suspect he will be ousted from any position in the PRL.  Hopefully quickly so the english teams can join in the euro cup next year. I don't see the PRL teams joining the euro cup until he is sidelined