Edinburgh and Glasgow Heineken Cup review

Edinburgh

Results –

Edinburgh 29 – Munster 23
Perpignan 31 – Edinburgh 14
Edinburgh 12 – Gloucester 23
Gloucester 10 – Edinburgh 16
Edinburgh 27 – Perpignan 16
Munster 38 – Edinburgh 6

Points for – 104, points against - 141

Standing in group – 3rd with 12 points and 3 wins

Summary –

The fact that Edinburgh fans can look back with disappointment at this HK campaign shows how much progress Edinburgh have made this season with the new coaching regime. Indeed 3 wins (including one on the road) represents one of the best HK campaigns in the past 10 years – we have only done that 3 times previously since 2003.

The reason for the disappointment is that, as good as the victories over Munster, Gloucester away and Perpignan at home were, the losses were particularly bad. Despite the heavy losses away to Munster and Perpignan, I think the one that will stick in the minds of the fans and coaches is the loss at home to a struggling Gloucester team. We just simply failed to turn up that game, and we made a poor Gloucester side, who were very short on confidence, look like a top class team. If we had won that (and the following results were the same) we would have gone into the last game assured of an Amlin spot, and playing Munster for the top of the group.

Still, bearing in mind how bad last season was (and it was really, reall bad) 3 good wins should be classed as a very successful campaign for this team. The fact that there were also 3 bad losses shows that this team is still very much in development.


Glasgow

Results –

Toulon 51 – Glasgow 28
Glasgow 20 – Chiefs 16
Blues 29 – Glasgow 20
Glasgow 7 – Blues 9
Chiefs 10 – Glasgow 15
Glasgow 8 – Toulon 15

Points for – 98, points against – 130

Standing in group – 4th with 11 points and two wins

Summary –

After an outstanding year last year this was Glasgow’s chance to make inroads in the HK for the first time ever. Although reigning champions Toulon would be tough, an inexperienced Blues team and relative European newbies Exeter Chiefs were beatable both home and away. Indeed this should have been Glasgow’s target having done so well the season before.

It wasn’t the best of starts with Glasgow shipping over 50 points to Toulon away, but they managed a 4 try BP, and indeed a point is more than most teams would get away to Toulon. This was then followed up by a win against the Chiefs which put Glasgow back in the hunt.

Unfortunately Glasgow failed to beat the Blues away and then at home. The Blues have some stellar individuals but the core of their team is very inexperienced. However they were very committed and had a simple game plan that they stuck too – Glasgow just couldn’t break them down. These were two massively disappointing games that effectively ended and of Glasgow’s hopes in Europe.

So once again Glasgow failed to progress in Europe, and what makes it so disappointing is that for once Glasgow had a team that looked like they could do it, and they had teams in their group that should have been beatable.

For me - Glasgow blew a good chance to progress. Lost 3 games they should have won. Highlight is I was at Scotstoun to see them beat Exeter. toonie scores 12 on the muppetometer for inept selections and substitutions which IMO contributed to the losses

Edinburgh - just same old same old - great one week and mince the next. I thought Solomans was making a difference but this weekendfs game was one of the worst I have seen from Edinburgh. Wet paper bag defence and nothing in attack. Why is laidlaw kicking everything away? has he no confidence in anyone outside him? Simply not good enough from either team. Toonie must go - he is damaging the team. Edinburgh need a clearout and rebuild

Losing twice to the Blues finished off Glasgow, and losing at home to Glaws finished off Edinburgh.

You HAVE to win your home hames in the HC. Clearly having Toulon was unfortunate for Glasgow, and very few sides (if any) would have lived with Toulon in that first half at Scotstoun.

It wasn't our worst year. Both sides were competitive in their groups, and beating Exeter home and away plus gleaning a LBP from the mighty Toulon wasn't a disaster for Glasgow, and similarly for Edinburgh beating Perpignan so comfortably at home, beating Munster at home and winning away at the Shed again not a disaster. The great HC sides can win well when not playing to their potential, and neither Edinburgh nor Glasgow were able to win ugly when it mattered. For Glasgow losing 7-9 against the Blues at home just isn't acceptable.

Something to build on.

Glasgow will feel the more disappointed. Both Cardiff games were winnable, and four wins and an LBP would have at least got them into the Amlin. For

Edinburgh this season was always going to be a work in progress, and we had some good wins nevertheless.

fES- don't agree with you there. Toulon were so beatable at the weekend. Their huge pack mullared our scrum but we tackled them to a standstill - huge hits from the Jedi contributing massively. Our discipline was poor and decision making not great. Jackson is on the form of his career now and must start in the 6Ns. Hogg was blistering as he was at M'field and in Exeter and easily the best back on show on Saturday. Fusaro has rediscovered his form too although we should never have let Barclay go tbh. The 2 games lost to a poor Cardiff team were the worst I have ever seen by the Warriors - need to say tactics and replacements were all rather woeful.

TJ, there’s definitely progress from last year form an Edinburgh POV – the performances we put in for our wins were the best I’ve seen from an Edinburgh team in a long time, and although some of the losses were bad we were at least generally competitive. Away to Perpignan we were right in it until their wingers tore us apart with 20 mins to go killing off the games.

What is concerning is our away record – we have a mighty points against tally away from home both in the league and the HK. I’m not sure why this is, but I really hope it isn’t because the Murrayfield turf is brining teams down to our level.

fES is spot on - minimum requirement is to win your home games, ideally a couple away too and pick up as many BPs as you can. Neither side delivered on that objective. Overall C-. Relative to expectation tho, Edinbokke B+, Weegie not worth marking

I see Edinburgh as doing much worse that Glasgow - Edinburgh really were not competitive in the losses. Never looked like getting anywhere and played really badly. defence of a wet paper bag and nothing in attack Glasgow were competitive and but for a few bounces of the ball could have won more.

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:fES- don't agree with you there.   Toulon were so beatable at the weekend.    Their huge pack mullared our scrum but we tackled them to a standstill - huge hits from the Jedi contributing massively.   Our discipline was poor and decision making not great.  Jackson is on the form of his career now and must start in the 6Ns.   Hogg was blistering as he was at M'field and in Exeter and easily the best back on show on Saturday.  Fusaro has rediscovered his form too although we should never have let Barclay go tbh.  The 2 games lost to a poor Cardiff team were the worst I have ever seen by the Warriors - need to say tactics and replacements were all rather woeful.

Sorry, I meant to say very few sides would have lived with Toulon in that 1st half away in France. You're right, you made a very good fist of it against Toulon at the weekend. Your defence was superb, and I hope SJ was watching Chris Fusaro. A proper openside performance, and he showed great sharpness to take that try. Most of the Toulon players clearly didn't know the rules, and yet Fusaro was bang on the money.

Fact is a LBP should have been enough for Glasgow to get something out of the group, because you should have beaten the Blues home and away. That's where things slipped away for you.

TJ wrote:I see Edinburgh as doing much worse that Glasgow - Edinburgh really were not competitive in the losses.  Never looked like getting anywhere and played really badly.  defence of a wet paper bag and nothing in attack Glasgow were competitive and but for a few bounces of the ball could have won more.

Our most disappointing performance was probably Munster yesterday in the second half, but our most disappointing result was Glaws at home. We let Jonny May run through the entire side that day, and Rob Cook's first try was a result of our wide defence not coping.

Yesterday was horrible though. That first Coughlan try brough a tear to my eyes. It was straight from the Michael Bradley play book. Work oh so hard to get 3 points, then fall asleep at the restart and gift the opposition 5 points without laying a solitary finger on the try scorer (a forward) who was able to gallop through a collossal gap uncontested. The try from the back of the scrum was also horrible. Murphy strolling past Denton to walk in under the sticks, again not a finger laid on him, was pathetic.

Denton has been really good recently, but he had a bit of a nightmare yesterday. The Irish contact skills were too good for him, and he kept being stripped of the ball in contact. He likes to hold the ball in one arm and use his other arm as a fender, but the Irish were onto him and kept targeting his ball carrying arm (hardly rocket science), and I counted at least three knockons from him. With Fusaro coming into form, and Strokosch having played so well last summer, I think Denton could find Beattie stealing his number 8 jersey.

TJ wrote:I see Edinburgh as doing much worse that Glasgow - Edinburgh really were not competitive in the losses.  Never looked like getting anywhere and played really badly.  defence of a wet paper bag and nothing in attack Glasgow were competitive and but for a few bounces of the ball could have won more.

Don't really follow how Edinburgh can be described as doing "much worse" when they won an extra game!

I know what you're saying that our losses were bad, but that's detracting entirely from 3 very good performances to get 3 good wins.

Why its worse ( than Glasgow - not last year) is the way they were not competitive for half their games. Glasgow took it to toulon and could have won having had the best of the game. Edinburgh just capitulated and never looked in the game agaisnt munster - offered nothing in attack at all and a soft defence

Yeah but that was one Glasgow game when they had nothing to play for - can it really by said that Glasgow took it to the Blues B team when they lost to them??

I quite liked Toonie's assessment; 1 1/2 good performances against Toulon, 2 good performances against Chiefs and 2 poor performances against Cardiff.
If we had beaten Cardiff at home the game against Toulon would have been a very different game. The frustrating thing about the losses to Cardiff is that they summed up our season so far; nearly as good as last year but not quite there. We have all had a go at diagnosing just what is missing; from Peter Horne to wet balls to bad luck to loss of form in key individuals to seemingly random selections and we're none the wiser.
I still think we're playing well enough to make the play offs. I would bet my 10p that it will be Leinster, Munster and Ulster who join us. If they are battle weary after long HC campaigns and we have a bit of luck in terms of injuries to key players then maybe we could be setting the Muppetometer below 1%

I think Glasgow must be disappointed to have not finished second. Those to games v Blues cost them an Amlin run.

As has been said the Scots did better this and held their own but did not do as well as they could.

They had a very similar pool (Munster /Toulon, Gloucester/Exeter, Perpignan/Cardiff).

Edinburgh did very well beating each team in their pool but certainly the loss to Gloucester at home was very disapointing, away to Perpignan it was a shame to undo a decent first half with a pathetic start to the 2nd half. But very positive overall.

Expectations were pretty high for Glasgow and overall the team didn't deliver, it was a decent return to beat Exeter home and away, but the december doubleheader was a disaster, can we blame the players for that? i'm not so sure, gameplans were wrong (particularly at the Arms Park) and selections were strange, how can the players build confidence when they never get a decent run of games?
Matawalu i'm afraid has become a liability, as illustred saturday when he had a good pass and could have scored but he couldn't catch the ball properly. Glasgow plays better when they play as a team, not when they rely on him to make the difference (not that he has made a difference this season mind you).

Just read that the only player in the Scotland squad who will be playing in the quarter finals is Kelly Brown - only one player in the Scotland squad plays in a team good enough to progress in Europe. Quite a damming stat!

Not really FES: this is the second year running that there are no Welsh clubs in Europe after the group stages and their national side aren't doing too badly.
The HC is a very unforgiving tournament with no margin for error and Glasgow do play high risk rugby. look at the Cardiff matches, if Kalman's (?) pass goes to hand instead of being intercepted by Cuthbert we score a try and take home 4 points. Again at Scotstoun one successful kick puts us ahead and Cardiff were offering nothing in attack other than long range penalties. No doubt Glasgow have to learn to grind out the sort of result that gets you out of the group, which is exactly what Cardiff did to us, but we must also remain true to the way we play rugby.
As for the MFL... Three wins is a real step forward but their second half capitulation at Thomond park was shocking. The Irish front row must be having wet dreams anticipating Dickinson-Ford-Cross facing them in the 6N.

Why not Duncan Taylor as well then? Or is he not in the European squad? He still plays for Sarries right..? I'm a bit behind.

If you ask me Glasgow were awful considering expectations and Edinburgh were good considering expectations. I think if you looked at them both neutrally, they performed by and large the same - they can play well but have no consistency. Most importantly, they do not win the games that count in the overall narrative of the tournament (away to Perp after an unexpected win in round 1, followed by at home to Gloucester when they could back on track; then the double loss to Cardiff which was unforgiveable, especially that second game).

Results are all well and good but at the end of the day you have to win the matches that count. Scottish rugby does not do this. Even in the last two world cups we exited at a stage I don't think we should have because we bottled against Argentina (and latterly Eng)

Ineffable wrote:Why not Duncan Taylor as well then? Or is he not in the European squad? He still plays for Sarries right..? I'm a bit behind.

If you ask me Glasgow were awful considering expectations and Edinburgh were good considering expectations. I think if you looked at them both neutrally, they performed by and large the same - they can play well but have no consistency. Most importantly, they do not win the games that count in the overall narrative of the tournament (away to Perp after an unexpected win in round 1, followed by at home to Gloucester when they could back on track; then the double loss to Cardiff which was unforgiveable, especially that second game).

Results are all well and good but at the end of the day you have to win the matches that count. Scottish rugby does not do this. Even in the last two world cups we exited at a stage I don't think we should have because we bottled against Argentina (and latterly Eng)

YEah Duncan Taylor too - shoddy journalism from the Scotsman!

pip- you are right in that the Welsh have done OK despite their regions not doing much in the Heineken, but those players are producing the goods at the top level with their country.  As Ineffible says Scottish players can win the odd one off big game but they rarely produce results when it matters. By getting to these knock out stages it shows players can win the big games when it matters - and that might cause us problems in the world cup if the players aren't used to that.

jimbopip wrote:Not really FES: this is the second year running that there are no Welsh clubs in Europe after the group stages and their national side aren't doing too badly.
The HC is a very unforgiving tournament with no margin for error and Glasgow do play high risk rugby. look at the Cardiff matches, if Kalman's (?) pass goes to hand instead of being intercepted by Cuthbert we score a try and take home 4 points. Again at Scotstoun one successful kick puts us ahead and Cardiff were offering nothing in attack other than long range penalties. No doubt Glasgow have to learn to grind out the sort of result that gets you out of the group, which is exactly what Cardiff did to us, but we must also remain true to the way we play rugby.
As for the MFL... Three wins is a real step forward but their second half capitulation at Thomond park was shocking. The Irish front row must be having wet dreams anticipating Dickinson-Ford-Cross facing them in the 6N.

Don't think it was my comments you were responding to.

Wales are indeed proof that you can have a successful national side alongside a completely shambolic club/regional set-up. Perhaps the SRU have indeed been trying to follow their model.

Some interesting comments here. I think that not winning regularly for our franchise teams is the biggest single impediment to us doing well in the 6N. We want to win. We talk about giving our best and respecting the opposition. But we should be talking about winning above all else. Laidlaw and Lamont do that in interviews, but I haven't really heard it from anyone else.

Cotter is ferociously competitive though and so I have no fears when he takes over.

Finally, I would like all hardcore Edinburgh fans to be honest. Does Denton really deserve the Scotland shirt? If so, on what basis? I've watched the whole Edinburgh game now and quite frankly I stopped counting his mistakes once I got past 10. What does he really bring which Beattie does not? I'm not wumming or being pejorative towards Denton - I'm asking a serious question. Why do so many people seemingly have him down as the incumbent?

George Carlin wrote:Finally, I would like all hardcore Edinburgh fans to be honest. Does Denton really deserve the Scotland shirt? If so, on what basis? I've watched the whole Edinburgh game now and quite frankly I stopped counting his mistakes once I got past 10. What does he really bring which Beattie does not? I'm not wumming or being pejorative towards Denton - I'm asking a serious question. Why do so many people seemingly have him down as the incumbent?

We're always honest. No benefits cheats on this side of the M8!!

Denton has had some strong performances this season, but you are right to point out the high error count. He needs to adapt his ball carrying style. One arm holding the ball isn't enough against the Irish tacklers who will allow Denton to make initial yards with his power provided they get to the ball (either to strip it or to hold it up). Denton was done that way a number of times against Munster. Initial yards only to find that the Irish had the ball. He does need to wise up.

He was also done by Murphy for that try under the posts. He was running out to tackle the midfield and didn't guard his channel. School boy error.

Were Denton to be dropped I'd get it, particularly with Fusaro having a stormer against Toulon and Harley and Strokosch both being strong options at 6. Personally I think he's still our best ball carrier. Beattie is the better handler and ball player, but I think Denton has more power. Watch the Perpignan game again and count the number of carries he made. His workrate has shot up this season.

I suspect we'll see both Beattie and Denton starting personally, with Brown at 7. Either of Fusaro or Strokosch could make the bench, but I reckon it'll be Strokosch based on prior SJ selections. It's a bit like the 10 debate to be honest, we've got a number of good options and potentially workable combinations, each having slightly different merit.

Barclay and Holmes not being included surely has to be a sign to Fozzy that he is genuinely in contention. It's tough that he's completing for the captain's shirt but that really means he's one knock on the Kellybrow conk away from starting. SJ gives a good interview to the SRU (its on their website) where he effectively says that he's intrigued by Fozzy and accepts that he's made improvements.

I would agree on balance that Denton has more impact as a carrier but the error count is what has killed Scotland teams recently and I would be inclined not to risk it. I would be happiest with 6. Strokosch 7. Brown and 8. Beattie but I think we'll see 6. Strokosch 7. Brown and 8. Denton.

I think Denton has been trying too hard -stung by critism. We have a lot of back row options non of whom will let us down. I do like ~Dentons workrate tho

Denton will never truly be a top class 8 until he improves his handling skills significantly - Reid and Parisse have better hands than most centres, whereas Denton's handling skills wouldn't look out of place in my rugby club's 2s team.