F1 Winter Testing Topic

First topic message reminder :

The cars have all been revealed with a range of noses that reflect a zoo more than a F1 paddock.

Testing begins at Jerez today with all but Lotus getting first running of the new cars and Hamilton is first to test the safety features with a trip to the barriers

It does look like the teams are cranking up the output very gradually on these new powertrains. If there's still more to come, then we should see lap times on a par with last season's.

Interesting to see a mix of teams posting the top times. Ferrari and Mercedes looking like the main contenders at the moment, with McLaren and Force India also looking strong...and of course, as John said, you can never rule out Red Bull.

It would be good to see McLaren at the front of the grid again. It looks like Renault maybe behind Mercedes and Ferrari engines going into the season.

1. Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 1m34.263s 67
2. Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes 1m34.976s +0.713s 103
3. Felipe Massa Williams-Mercedes 1m37.066s +2.803s 60
4. Esteban Gutierrez Sauber-Ferrari 1m37.180s +2.917s 96
5. Sergio Perez Force India-Mercedes 1m37.367s +3.104s 57
6. Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari 1m37.476s +3.213s 44
7. Daniil Kvyat Toro Rosso-Renault 1m38.974s +4.711s 57
8. Pastor Maldonado Lotus-Renault 1m39.642s +5.379s 26
9. Daniel Ricciardo Red Bull-Renault 1m40.781s +6.518s 28
10. Marcus Ericsson Caterham-Renault 1m42.130s +7.867s 98
11. Max Chilton Marussia-Ferrari 1m46.672s +12.409s 4
12. Valtteri Bottas Williams-Mercedes no time 55

How does everyone see the opening exchanges in the season panning out?

So far, continuous blistering speed is being shown by Mercedes in Bahrain. They were building for this year as a team & it looks like they could deliver. If they are dominant, I hope it isn't as dominating as the Brawn 09' year. Still early days, however, it's only 20 odd days until the first race & I don't see Renault powered cars being competitive or reliable enough to challenge in the opening races. Ferrari are the big question mark for me, just how good are they? McLaren have shown glimpses but you feel the transition from Works to Customer relationship with Mercedes engines, will be a factor later on in the season, if they are challenging Mercedes.

Ask me in Melbourne.

Renault seem pretty happy with the engine performance, is not reliability. Might be a slow start to the season but they might be strongest by midseason.

Ferrari are sandbagging, McLaren haven't turned it up to 12 yet

As predicted, Rob Smedley has joined Williams. I think they are looking at having a very successful early part of the season with this Mercedes package, while bigger teams, who appear to be struggling, adjust & develop their cars. Good experienced team being assembled at Williams now.

I'd agree there John. They look in far better shape now with a decent looking set of backroom staff, good driver line-up, solid engine package and so surely they will do far better than last year. I wish them well as I have always had a soft spot for this long standing privateer team.

Conspiracy theorists are under way for 2014 saying RB have been testing in Spain. Better hope that isn't true unless declared a PR Day

Its been denied, however, they are in such trouble, it wouldn't surprise me. Torro Rosso also staying they are being severely held back by Renault. I think Renault want to extend the engine deadline too, not sure that should be allowed.

I do worry that Renault powered cars could be highly uncompetitive in all areas during the first phase of this season. It could be farsical if things don't improve.

Well Renault have said they will be ready for the Australian GP. Kobayashi has declared the Caterham is slower then a GP2 car at the moment which is hilarious.

I wouldn't worry too much about RB and the other Renault-powered teams.

Both RB and Renault have got too much invested in retaining their World Champion status not to overcome whatever problems they're having.

It may take them a few races, but I'd wager they'll be among the front-runners before mid-season. Just look how they caught Brawn by the midway stage, (performance-wise) after they stole a march with their double-diffusers...

Still, it'd be nice to see some other teams get among the wins and poles for a change, until RB get their act together.

How much will the tyres influence the pecking order this year? Last year Mercedes were quite good at getting pole position. But they'd burn their tyres out after ten laps are there certain teams that look to be in a bad position now but might be better over a race distance the way lotus used to be last year?

Tyre wise it'll be the rears that'll be the issue with the new engines producing so much more torque then 2013 so could end up with Thermal Degradation causing it to wear quickly. The tyres are much harder then 2013 so don't expect 4 stop races but on a plus side it's mean they will be more consistent.

John wrote:I think Renault want to extend the engine deadline too

Believe they have asked for this to happen as I expected.

BBC quote - "It's fair to say Renault's request for an extension to the engine homologation deadline has stirred up a bit of a hornet's nest. It's a very controversial thing to request, for two reasons - 1) these engine rules are effectively only in F1 because Renault wanted them and threatened to quit if they were not introduced; 2) the manufacturers have already had an extra year to develop the engines, after the initial date for the introduction of hybrid turbos was pushed back from 2013. Renault want an extra two months of development before specs are frozen, by the way. Contrary to what I wrote earlier, unanimity is needed for Renault's request to pass. Apologies for any confusion."

They are in a mess. I really can't see RB being able to defend this year, I heard someone say Ricciardo said it could take upto five or six races to sort out. Newey is an aero man, not an engine recovery systems genius. Has anyone see the difference in kpm top speed down the straights between Mercedes & Renault. Huge.

Caterham are an embarrassment aswell. They had a qualifying run yesterday which was apparently over 6 seconds slower than Mercedes. Doubt they would even make the 107% rule, if that still is enforced these days. Can see it being Caterham's last year & replaced by Haas racing, who have apparently been granted a slot for next year using Ferrari engines.

If Vettel won this time I guess we'd finally have a chance to see the 'he wouldn't get credit for winning in a Reliant Robin' put to the test.

Seriously, you can have all the aero in the World but if you have to pedal it, it's a bridge too far. Probably a year of retrenchment for RB and 2015/6 a realistic target.

Even if RB aren't at the races for the first few, they'll sort their issues reasonably soon.

Shocking day for RB so far today, two breakdowns. They were only third fastest yesterday because the other teams are now focusing on long run, high fuel race performance, whereas RB are still puzzled over reliability.

Even if RB sort the issues out, they will be playing a major catch-up game throughout the season. If the season was about aerodynamic performance, Newey would not be worried, however, F1 is all about engine package, energy recovery systems & reliability this season, something RB are not strong at. They have, admitted by Renault with the demand of the engine deadline extension, the weakest engine package. I'm not sure what can be done. If it's as bad as some fear, it's a disappointment. I don't want to see Vettel struggling, I want to see him racing the other top drivers & proving his doubters right or wrong.

I prefer to wait until we get all cards on the table in qualifying before judging who is strong and who is not. At the moment Renault seem to be having problems with their turbo engine unit but should that rule out Red Bull? No. They have the strongest aero package so this will help to counter-balance any power deficiency as long as their engine is reliable enough to get them to the finish.

Yes, aero balances it all out when people can lap 6 seconds faster than you and you have no speed. Obviously.

Well bogbrush we do not know (until the season starts) the time gap between Renault-powered and other powered cars do we? I am well nigh certain it will not be six seconds between Mercedes, McLaren and Ferrari to Red Bull and Lotus but Caterham is another matter as they have that inferior aerodynamics package you see.

Last season is like this in ways of margins. Whereas Red Bull had premium package other teams couldn't compete due to largely the aerodynamics package and so Red Bull won comfortably but this season people are opinioning that the boot is on the other foot. Perhaps Mercedes have the most complete package with their greatest strength being in the power category so will the likes of Red Bull be equally as lacking as the opposition was last season?

Yeah, CC. The Mercedes engine package this year, is likened to the advantage RB had aerodynamically last year it would appear. Whereby, one team had the advantage last year aerodynamically, multiple teams have the Mercedes engine package this year & it's not one team solely benefiting, that's what's exciting.

Lotus have ended the day too I believe. Arguably in even worse shape than RB. No wonder Boullier left & it's funny that Maldonando left Williams to join Lotus. In my opinion, a very good bet/shout for the race win in Melbourne is the Williams. It appears to be the best car in terms of reliability & it's pace is very good.

It would be great just to see Williams back in the points never mind race wins. Fingers crossed for them.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Last season is like this in ways of margins. Whereas Red Bull had premium package other teams couldn't compete due to largely the aerodynamics package and so Red Bull won comfortably but this season people are opinioning that the boot is on the other foot. Perhaps Mercedes have the most complete package with their greatest strength being in the power category so will the likes of Red Bull be equally as lacking as the opposition was last season?

On the evidence so far they are far further back, as you well know but are reluctant to accept.

Yes they are at the moment but won't write them off before the season has even begun. I am 100% confident Red Bull will have the best aerodynamics package so if Renault can sort out their engine issues I don't see a problem. Heck even if it takes Renault three or four races to sort the issue the season is far from over.

Tough to sort power shortfalls when the freeze takes hold.

Depends. Renault can still sort a fix without altering the engine.

Well anyway it is far too soon to be writing Red Bull off even taking into account their Renault problems. Caterham you can write off as we know their package is not on the same planet as Red Bull. As I said lets wait and see - after all didn't last season start off really pretty well for Mercedes and it all fell apart when tyre rules were changed harming them? Something similar may happen on the engine front as Red Bull are asking for amendments to allow Renault more time to work on the problem (unsure of all the details on this) but that may be the lifeline that cracks the problem.

Renault engine package is clearly inferior to the Mercedes. This was proved by the desperational attempt to extend the deadline, something which won't happen because its voted on by the teams, I believe. RB can sort out their issues & reliability, however, if you've got an engine/energy package which is down on performance in comparison to Mercedes or Ferrari, I find it difficult to see RB challenging. Renault can fix the software issues & reliability but you can`t improve performance without the deadline extension, which they won't get. From what I've seen, the power outlay is inferior to Mercedes & that's represented in the times & speed down the straights.

Red Bull have so many issues, along with Lotus & today looks no different. In fact, everyone is still having issues apart from Williams.

Massa 12/1 at paddy power for the race win in Melbourne, has to be worth an each way bet as I can't see many cars finishing the race.

harryspiv wrote:Massa 12/1 at paddy power for the race win in Melbourne, has to be worth an each way bet as I can't see many cars finishing the race.

I`m on Massa & Bottas. Reliability will win the first race. I expect Mercedes to grab pole but there is still reliability issues for Mercedes, for instance, gearbox in testing today.

Williams seem to be in a good place with their package, they seem more reliable than other teams during testing and the pace they have been showing on all runs has been impressive. Would like to see them up there fighting for podiums again where a team of such history should be.

How much trouble are Red Bull in? I've seen Christian Horner say their performance should be good? Is it purely reliability that is the issue and lack of testing time or have they actually got a slow car this year? It's hard to tell because they've not really had much track time

Tbh the noises from Renault have been that the performance is fine, reliability is the worry.

RB might start slow but they're the best team going. They'll sort it

Would be a little ironic if RB wins the 'ship this year having started slowly but managing to win the 50point finale.

RB are just trolling everyone.

RB doing a PR Day tomorrow around Bahrain using the RB 10 & testing with the RB 8 the next day

1. Felipe Massa, Williams, 1:33.258, Supersoft tyres, Test Two – Day Three.
2. Lewis Hamilton, Mercedes, 1:33.278, Supersoft compound, Test Two – Day Four.
3. Nico Rosberg, Mercedes, 1:33.283, New Soft tyres, Test One – Day Four.
4. Valtteri Bottas, Williams, 1:33.987, Unknown tyre compound, Test Two – Day Four.
5. Fernando Alonso, Ferrari, 1:34.280, Unknown tyre compound, Test Two – Day Four.
6. Kevin Magnussen, McLaren, 1:34.910, New supersoft tyres, Test One – Day Two.
7. Jenson Button, McLaren, 1:34.957, New soft tyres, Test One – Day Four.
8. Sergio Perez, Force India, 1:35.290, Unknown tyre compound, Test Two – Day One.
9. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, 1:35.426, Supersoft tyres, Test Two – Day Three.
10. Nico Hulkenberg, Force India, 1:35.577, Unknown tyre compound, Test Two – Day Four.
11. Jean-Eric Vergne, Toro Rosso, 1:35.701, Unknown tyre compound, Test Two – Day Four.
12. Daniel Ricciardo, Red Bull, 1:35.743, Unknown tyre compound, Test Two – Day Two.

Consensus seems to be the RB is quick when it doesn't implode. So positives at least

The problem is that the car is so tightly packaged that the ERS is overheating so it will be very difficult not to implode. Shall be an engine formula for until Spain

Mercedes seem to have about 75 bhp over the Ferrari but is more torque so will ruin the rears more then Ferrari. No one has a clue about Renault because it keeps blowing up.

Seems to be a standard RB car though. Not as powerful on the straights, glued to the floor through the corners

Tbh Ferrari seem to be keeping their noses clean

Yeah they don't seem very quick though so far so be interesting to see what they do for the next 2 weeks back at the factory.

Big year for Mercedes & Hamilton though since this is what he signed up for.

Really he kinda needs this championship to revive his career. It's kinda stalled really.

Vettel's comments sum the situation up, lack of speed. I guess the RB is quick & aerodynamically efficient, however, if you look at the longer runs Renault powered teams were able to do, when they weren't blowing up, times were still significantly off Mercedes. Straight line speed was way down on Mercedes too. If Ferrari are 75 bhp down on Mercedes, I wonder what Renault is & maybe the reason why they wanted to extend the engine deadline to improve performance along with reliability.

Ferrari is the interesting one, they are the unknown, being linked as the second fastest in some eyes & then fifth behind all the other Mercedes powered teams in others. Mercedes' 75bhp to Ferrari is quite big, which can be used to devastating effect, in very limited instances, thus not likely to compromise fuel limitation constraints though. Agree, Mercedes will hurt the rear tyres with more torque.

Is it all really about power though - I think not. Logic presumes that Renault and other teams worries are overheating their turbo engines. Now surely if that is the case then by toning down the power you lose engine efficiency and with it that extra power and extra pace. I'd hazard a guess that is the problem here for Renault. After all their engines coped exceedingly well with all other brands last year.

I'm hoping that's the case CC. RB have turned down the turbo & energy recovery units & are just looking for the perfect way to improve cooling & reliability, without negating the aerodynamic performance of Newey's design.

I still think Mercedes is the engine package to have in terms of overall power, however, nobody wants to see Vettel or RB struggling. We want them among the fight & be challenging, as to enrich the Championship. I think it might just take a period of time for that to happen though.

Tbf though Bahrain is.basically a series of.long straights

GSC wrote:Tbf though Bahrain is.basically a series of.long straights

From JB after following Ricciardo - ''I think we are quicker than them in a straight line but they are quicker in other areas and we have to aim to improve in that respect. I was running on track with Ricciardo for a few laps and and he couldn't pass me on the straight but then he got ahead at turn eleven which was an interesting experience that I hadn't seen before…”

I reckon that RB is so tightly packed & aerodynamically efficient, it pains Newey to have to re-design it to improve reliability. I reckon that car has mighty amounts of downforce as JB described & it's nothing new seeing a RB slow in a straight line. Even Hamilton was saying the RB rear end is beautifully designed. RB are bringing a modified package to Melbourne, so if it's solved the issues, RB could turn up the power units & begin to showcase the true speed of the car, something we haven't been able to witness. If the Renault power is relatively strong, I dread to say this as a Hamilton fan but, I think our original thoughts of RB struggling immensely might be untrue.

Nothing surprises me in F1 & to see RB rock up at Melbourne & be competitive from the get-go would be just that. I just want FP1 now........  

Tbh it's the time for Mercedes teams to strike. Renault teams are unlikely to be at full power initially.

I daresay Ferrari have sent the winter sandbagging too