Mistake ? - Marvin Hagler not rematching Sugar Ray Leonard ??

I thought Leonard beat Hagler................Thought he outsmarted him.............Thought Hagler outsmarted himself early too.....

However even though I had it by three.......The consensus is it was much closer....With some having Hagler winning.....

No doubt both learn from the experience...........We can say though that Leonard fought the best fight he could.....We can also say that Hagler screwed up...........Perhaps second time around he jumps on Leonard early..........

On the Marvin flipside though he was showing his age and Leonard may have been the fresher of the two next time.....

Hard to call a rematch..............But for me Hagler made a mistake in not rematching Ray ................I think Hagler scrapes it !!

I'm sure Hagler would have loved a quick rematch! Leonard retired directly after the Hagler fight. Hagler waited around for a year or so and, unable to get the rematch, retired in June 1988. In August 1988 Leonard came back to fight Lalonde.

Hagler won the first fight for me and would have won the second. Fighters weren't usually the same after Hagler had finished with them. Hearns was dropped by Roldan, Barkley, Kinchen etc. Leonard was dropped by Hearns (twice) and Lalonde. Hagler had more motivation in the rematch.

I'd have favour Hagler as well, couple of reasons.
1)Hagler was Ray Leonard's personal Main goal in boxing and he achieved it. He yearned this fight for years. Don't think the same Ray climbs through them ropes again.
2) as you mentioned Hagler would have stayed southpaw, came out faster and generally fought a tidier fight. I think these two points give Marvin the goods. Leonard's fire and desire had died. He was fading and aging just as fast as Hagler too.

Hagler 116-112 something like that.

Cheers Rodders

hazharrison wrote:I'm sure Hagler would have loved a quick rematch! Leonard retired directly after the Hagler fight. Hagler waited around for a year or so and, unable to get the rematch, retired in June 1988. In August 1988 Leonard came back to fight Lalonde.

Hagler won the first fight for me and would have won the second. Fighters weren't usually the same after Hagler had finished with them. Hearns was dropped by Roldan, Barkley, Kinchen etc. Leonard was dropped by Hearns (twice) and Lalonde. Hagler had more motivation in the rematch.

According to his bookHagler wasn't interested in a rematch...Leonard was open to negotiation......Hagler went into acting....

Both claimed they wanted it but the other guy didn't. Hagler wanted the rematch -- any subsequent revisions are more than likely down to pride. Leonard never made an offer.

Hagler never said he wanted a rematch Haz....He retired in disgust.....

Why did he retire in disgust? was it because he never go the rematch or because he lost?

(genuine question)

Derbymanc wrote:Why did he retire in disgust? was it because he never go the rematch or because he lost?

(genuine question)

He felt he'd been conned out of his title due to the scoring of the fight and, when the rematch offer never came, decided to move on with his life rather than be dictated to by Leonard (who he felt was messing him about).

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hagler never said he wanted a rematch Haz....He retired in disgust.....

Leonard retired right after the fight. Hagler didn't retire for a year or so.......at which point Leonard returned.

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hagler never said he wanted a rematch Haz....He retired in disgust.....

Leonard retired right after the fight. Hagler didn't retire for a year or so.......at which point Leonard returned.

Leonard never was approached for a rematch according to his book.....and he was interested...

You like Hagler you believe him..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hagler never said he wanted a rematch Haz....He retired in disgust.....

Leonard retired right after the fight. Hagler didn't retire for a year or so.......at which point Leonard returned.

Leonard never was approached for a rematch according to his book.....and he was interested...

You like Hagler you believe him..

Then why did he retire? Why do I waste my life trying to knock sense into you? You're like my pet project.

He retired because he went into movies.........

HE NEVER ASKED FOR A REMATCH....................

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He retired because he went into movies.........

HE NEVER ASKED FOR A REMATCH....................

LEONARD RETIRED IN 1987. HAGLER RETIRED IN JUNE 1988. LEONARD CAME BACK IN AUGUST 1988.

SOMEBODY CALL COLUMBO!!!!!!!

Hagler at the second time of asking would beat Leonard, and thats coming from a huge Leonard fan. I thought in the first fight, Leonard did enough to win by frustrating Hagler. I'm not sure his tactics were what Hagler expected so he was unable to effectively do the work he needed to early. Fighting the first rounds as orthodox killed it for him as he let Leonard set a precedent and a pace that although tired him late on, made the judges favour the flashier work.

In a second fight, Hagler would come out (hopefully) as southpaw, do his best work early and hurt Leonard quicker and have more venom in his shots. He'd probably look to spoil too - Leonard was given too much room as Hagler probably believed power would overcome speed, it didn't and only when he incorporated timing did he do his best work. With that mindset from the off I can't see Hagler losing second time around.

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He retired because he went into movies.........

HE NEVER ASKED FOR A REMATCH....................

LEONARD RETIRED IN 1987. HAGLER RETIRED IN JUNE 1988. LEONARD CAME BACK IN AUGUST 1988.

SOMEBODY CALL COLUMBO!!!!!!!

Just p**s off...........What does that mean......So he retired in 88........Spinks never retired...

He didn't ask for a rematch...Leonard said he never asked for one....Give me a source that said he did!!!!!!!!

Because Hagler hasn't said it......second thoughts don't bother..

Someone retires in 88 so it's proof he asked for a rematch !!!!!!!!!!    

Good points Jabby..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He retired because he went into movies.........

HE NEVER ASKED FOR A REMATCH....................

LEONARD RETIRED IN 1987. HAGLER RETIRED IN JUNE 1988. LEONARD CAME BACK IN AUGUST 1988.

SOMEBODY CALL COLUMBO!!!!!!!

Just p**s off...........What does that mean......So he retired in 88........Spinks never retired...

He didn't ask for a rematch...Leonard said he never asked for one....Give me a source that said he did!!!!!!!!

Because Hagler hasn't said it......second thoughts don't bother..

OOoooh. Surely the mods will be after you now -- you've broken their new rule.

http://www.secondsout.com/news/main-news/hagler-sugar-ray-ran-like-a-rabbit

Marvelous Marvin Hagler’s contentious 12 round points defeat to nemesis Sugar Ray Leonard took place exactly 20 years ago today (April 6) and has now divided two generations of fight fans. Former welterweight champion Leonard, as you will know, came out of three year retirement to challenge the seemingly unstoppable Hagler at Ceasars Palace in Las Vegas.

The result was a hugely controversial 12 round split decision for Leonard which remains a combustible topic of conversation to this day. Feeling his media darling opponent had been gifted a decision on the basis on a handful of flashy tricks, Hagler left the ring angry and disgusted and never fought again.

On the two decade anniversary of the fight, SecondsOut represents excerpts from an earlier interview with Hagler on the subject of one of the most controversial fight decisions of all time.

Hager began: “As a fighter, I respect Ray Leonard very much, very much. But as a man, I don’t really respect him, not as a person. He ran like a rabbit all night and tried to steal the fight by using a few flashy tricks here and there rather than winning the three minutes of each round, which I feel I did.

“There’s no question in my mind that I won that fight - there’s never been any question in my mind that I won that fight. That’s how I feel. A few years ago during a HBO programme he basically admitted to he lost that fight, which was good of him, but he never wanted anything to do with me after the quiet beating I gave him.

“Anyway, many, many fans believe I won the fight with Ray and – if anything – the majority of people out there think I won it and that is something important. So I let all that go – that was yesterday. I’m happy with my achievements in life.”

After the controversial Las Vegas decision, Hagler gave the Sugarman a one-year deadline to agree to the rematch but Leonard insisted the bout was a one-off and he had retired forever. As good as his word, the Marvelous One – who had no interest in any other opponent – quit the sport (Sugar Ray, though, was back in the ring the following year and, in fact, actually had his final bout in 1997 in an ill-conceived and ill fated fight with Hector Camacho Senior).

Now aged 53, Hagler believes everything may have worked out for the best.

“Now, years later, I realise losing that controversial decision could have been one of the best things to happen to me. If I’d have been given the decision I would almost certainly have continued boxing and (chased) Carlos Monzon’s record (the most defences of the middleweight title).

“That would have taken another year and I would have kept going after my prime, and that would have been sad because after 65 fights and 14 years as a professional it was time to bow out; and a lot of times that ‘one last fight’ is a huge mistake.

“So, in some ways, I am thankful I lost the decision to Ray Leonard in Las Vegas.”

Content and wealthy, Hagler is a boxing success story. Some estimate he earned around $20million as a fighter and, 20 years after his final bout, he continues to make a very comfortable income just by being Marvelous Marvin Hagler, signing autographs, and doing after dinner speaking.

“I’ve no regrets,” the icon said. “No, even the fact that Ray never gave me the rematch doesn’t matter anymore. I’m happy with the opportunities I had, the titles I won, I’m happy with my life and the way I think I’ll be remembered.”

1) Leonard came out retirement for the fight and retired immediately after, this added to the public's perception of the achievement and rubbed salt in the wound...."Look what I did, I came out of retirement just to beat... just to show I could. Now I'm going to announce my retirement again (though everyone knows I'll be back, as always)".

2) There was nothing to stop Hagler from coming out of retirement when Leonard resumed his career. If Hagler was so bitter about the loss, and thought he could overturn it, he would have boxed on until he was 100 year old to get the rematch.

Leonard in his book wrote Hagler went off sulking and never asked him for a return.........

One of them is obviously lying...........You like hagler..you believe him..

I have all the KO magazines from that period...Not once did Hagler say he wanted a rematch....

Just forget I want to move on..........

You have your favorites and you believe everything they say........Duran, Liston, GGG and Hagler...

thinl it's disgusting personally belittling Ali's win against Liston.......Wonderful effort.

Anyway we'll agree to disagree.

3fingers wrote:1) Leonard came out retirement for the fight and retired immediately after, this added to the public's perception of the achievement and rubbed salt in the wound...."Look what I did, I came out of retirement just to beat... just to show I could. Now I'm going to announce my retirement again (though everyone knows I'll be back, as always)".

2) There was nothing to stop Hagler from coming out of retirement when Leonard resumed his career. If Hagler was so bitter about the loss, and thought he could overturn it, he would have boxed on until he was 100 year old to get the rematch.

There ws nothing wrong with Hagler asking for a rematch at the time either Mate.

Haz, Truss one of you use the foe button. Is getting boring now. You both saw Hampo's thread yesterday. Just because you both know your stuff and have been on here and the beeb for an age it does not exempt you from the house rules.

JabMachineMK2 wrote: I thought in the first fight, Leonard did enough to win by frustrating Hagler. I'm not sure his tactics were what Hagler expected so he was unable to effectively do the work he needed to early.

What do you think Hagler expected? Genuine question.

Mate.....there is no correlation between when a guy retires and asking for a rematch you know that !!

Help me out here.......

I've not abused him ... "FLUFFMAN".........

I'm willing to debate sensibly.........

I apologise to Haz for any offence .........

I retract.......... Hagler asked for a rematch.......I'm wrong !!

Let's move on...

Truth will never be fully known, but as has been said earlier it depends on who you like best on what you believe. I have no doubt that Hagler would have won a re-match, but that doesn't distract from Leonard being an all time great; just that Hagler would have come in with a different game plan. Mind you, Leonard is too smart to fight the same fight twice, but still don't see him pulling off the same trick twice.

Always a bit tricky trying to decide how close, if ever, Hagler and Leonard were to a rematch, or who was the main stumbling block.

That said, the idea that Hagler was calling Leonard out immediately after the first fight and only walked away when Leonard refused to answer his calls appears to have snowballed over time.

There's a decent interview which Hagler did with Sports Illustrated, which I've linked below. It's worth noting that this interview took place only five months after the fight - so right in the middle of the time span in which Hagler was apparently chasing the rematch.

You don't need to read the whole article, but a couple of key quotes directly from Marvin in it:

"That's all I want, peace and time. As far as the fight game goes, I'm gonna sit back and watch and see what happens now."

"If I were to walk out of this game of boxing, I'd hate to walk out of it with this bitterness. But I'm going to take time out. I don't know if I'm going to fight again. Leonard doesn't have anything I want right now, except the satisfaction of whupping him. But that ain't what I want. I want my belts that they took."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1066497/4/index.htm

Appreciate that there will always be degrees of truth in all contrasting arguments, but judging by the above, Hagler didn't seem in all that much of a rush to fight Leonard again in late '87.

The difference is some of us know that people can lie.....

Not saying Leonard is telling the truth but when there are two sides to an argument....

Thing is to stand back and not just believe the one you like...

Think Hagler needs to jump on Leonard......Whether he was fit enough being an old 34 who knows.

88Chris05 wrote:Always a bit tricky trying to decide how close, if ever, Hagler and Leonard were to a rematch, or who was the main stumbling block.

That said, the idea that Hagler was calling Leonard out immediately after the first fight and only walked away when Leonard refused to answer his calls appears to have snowballed over time.

There's a decent interview which Hagler did with Sports Illustrated, which I've linked below. It's worth noting that this interview took place only five months after the fight - so right in the middle of the time span in which Hagler was apparently chasing the rematch.

You don't need to read the whole article, but a couple of key quotes directly from Marvin in it:

"That's all I want, peace and time. As far as the fight game goes, I'm gonna sit back and watch and see what happens now."

"If I were to walk out of this game of boxing, I'd hate to walk out of it with this bitterness. But I'm going to take time out. I don't know if I'm going to fight again. Leonard doesn't have anything I want right now, except the satisfaction of whupping him. But that ain't what I want. I want my belts that they took."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1066497/4/index.htm

Appreciate that there will always be degrees of truth in all contrasting arguments, but judging by the above, Hagler didn't seem in all that much of a rush to fight Leonard again in late '87.

Thank you Chris............Maybe all that abuse I got was unnecessary.

3fingers wrote:

JabMachineMK2 wrote: I thought in the first fight, Leonard did enough to win by frustrating Hagler. I'm not sure his tactics were what Hagler expected so he was unable to effectively do the work he needed to early.

What do you think Hagler expected? Genuine question.

Leonard was well known for being fast as we know, but he'd been out of the ring for nearly 3 years - there was no way he'd still have the same snap, the same speed he had - that was I think what Hagler thought. He assumed a little of his speed would have been traded for power in the weight jump, or at the very least some sort of slowing. Wasn't the case. We saw the Leonard that frustrated Duran and I think Hearns came with completely the wrong plan. he adapted, but by then I think Leonard already had the judges admiring his work.

Couldn't agree more with this view........

Hagler also believed fighting orthodox would surprise a guy and confuse a guy who'd beaten a lot of more talented orthodox fighters..

Plus - I remember watching this back recently and wondering....is there a man in the corwd/corner who continually shouts "kick his d**k?"

Sounds a bit painful..........

Say one thing about Hagler,,,,,,He stayed faithful to the Petronelli brothers...

Who generally cared for him as a Man and a fighter.......

Nice to see.....

I love the "Let's get this one out of your system" In the Mugabi fight..

Rare today to see such loyalty Truss, money talks a lot more now than it did back then.

I think the Reagan years and your Thatcher years changed a lot mate...

Became the politics of me and not Us........

Carter lost only by a slim margin to Reagan as did Callaghan to Thatcher........

Boy did things change........

Hagler was old school.........

Rowley wrote:Haz, Truss one of you use the foe button. Is getting boring now. You both saw Hampo's thread yesterday. Just because you both know your stuff and have been on here and the beeb for an age it does not exempt you from the house rules.

What the hell's a foe button? I only come on here to put him right.

Well as Chris post showed you fail miserably everytime..

Let's move on.

What did Chris's post prove? Absolutely nothing other than Hagler was sitting around twiddling his thumbs while Leonard was in retirement. This is a guy that waited years to face Hagler first time around and you're expecting me to believe he wanted a quick rematch? Even though he had retired?

I always thought hagler starts favourite in a rematch, but in truth I suspect its down to who slid the most, both were past their best in the actual fight.

Hagler chucked away the early rounds trying to be smart instead of doing what he did best. He might have lost them regardless but it probably cost him the fight. He fluffed his lines on the biggest night of his life. I suspect a lot of the rage and bitterness we saw afterwards, despite his posturing, was actually covering up frustration at himself. If not, it should have been.

Copywrite: milkyboy amateur psychology inc

hazharrison wrote:What did Chris's post prove? Absolutely nothing other than Hagler was sitting around twiddling his thumbs while Leonard was in retirement. This is a guy that waited years to face Hagler first time around and you're expecting me to believe he wanted a quick rematch? Even though he had retired?

Like I said let's move on......

Milky I agree with you............Also could depend on who was more motivated..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:What did Chris's post prove? Absolutely nothing other than Hagler was sitting around twiddling his thumbs while Leonard was in retirement. This is a guy that waited years to face Hagler first time around and you're expecting me to believe he wanted a quick rematch? Even though he had retired?

Like I said let's move on......

Milky I agree with you............Also could depend on who was more motivated..

NO MAS?

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:What did Chris's post prove? Absolutely nothing other than Hagler was sitting around twiddling his thumbs while Leonard was in retirement. This is a guy that waited years to face Hagler first time around and you're expecting me to believe he wanted a quick rematch? Even though he had retired?

Like I said let's move on......

Milky I agree with you............Also could depend on who was more motivated..

NO MAS?

You won't leave it will you ??.......I respect Chris as a poster...He's usually spot on.....

But I'm moving on..

I think its fair to assume that the rematch means more to hagler, and he'd come in pumped, but then he should have been pretty motivated for the first one.

Agree with truss, I think hagler tries to jump him like the hearns fight. But Leonard's smarter than tommy, and I'm not sure marv had the legs to carry it off if he didn't get him out early. He spent much of the first fight plodding after Leonard without the menace we were used to.

hagler favourite in the return but no gimme.

I don't understand how Marv got so upset at the decision....

think HBO had it something like 117-111.......didn't they to Leonard...

Even when he had Leonard pinned he was ineffective....

However Marv would and could improve on that crap performance..

He's a fighter truss, they always think they won. I had it to Leonard, as is fairly well documented! It's roughly 50:50 in poll terms as to who won. 1 very controversial card, but it was a close fight. Could have gone either way depending on who's work you preferred? Yep. Robbery? Never.

Like you, just never thought hagler did enough.

I could understand the controversial card though........

Leonard's output may have been slappy punches at times but If following someone around the ring doing sack all is effective aggression..You can keep it !!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I don't understand how Marv got so upset at the decision....

think HBO had it something like 117-111.......didn't they to Leonard...

Even when he had Leonard pinned he was ineffective....

However Marv would and could improve on that crap performance..

Opinion was divided. Merchant scored a draw. Tomkins two points for Leonard. Bernstein two points for Hagler.

Seth Abraham of HBO on why there was no rematch "Marv made It clear he was jobbed and that he would never fight again "

Wikipedia..Type in "Hagler v Leonard"..........  

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Seth Abraham of HBO on why there was no rematch "Marv made It clear he was jobbed and that he would never fight again "

Wikipedia..Type in "Hagler v Leonard"..........  

And you have the temerity to insult my sources? NO MAS!!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I could understand the controversial card though........

Leonard's output may have been slappy punches at times but If following someone around the ring doing sack all is effective aggression..You can keep it !!

It was a silent beating truss. Hugh mcilvanney, respected hack said so. Must be true. Hagler worked him over without anyone knowing or witnessing it... Except Hugh... Who is simply more perceptive than the rest of us.

That the best response you can do.......  

Just give up Mate........

http://www.doghouseboxing.com/On-The-Ropes-Boxing-Radio/OTR-New-051513.htm