A breakdown of the technical details of a knock on please?

Clancy called these two knock ons against Treviso today.

IMO to knock on surely means forward?

What am I missing here? Are these wrong calls?

In reference to the first instance the ref said 'it was for the first knock on. But he clawed the ball back again in the air?

Is it a knock on if it doesn't touch the ground?

If that's the case, then how come dropping a ball from you hand to kick isn't counted as the same.

I've also seen players fumble a ball and manage to get a toe to it before it touches the ground. Technically that is exactly the same action as kicking from hand, but it is left to a ref to decide if it was intentional or not?

I think he just got those two wrong looking at the video.

In terms of the kicking thing. My understanding is that yes, it's down to the ref to adjudge whether it was a deliberate drop to the foot to kick on or whether it was knocked on and kicked at the last minute to disguise it/try to make something out of it. I've seen plenty of accidental drops that were subsequently kicked or 'grubbered' being given as knockons.

I think the first one might be the right call as the ball went forward off the 9 and was never brought under control again before it hit the ground?

Doesn't explain the second one though.

For the first one, on the slowed down replay the ball looks to come forward from the 9, hit the supporting players arm before coming back to the 9 who then proceeds to drop it backwards. If that did happen then it is a knock on as soon as the ball hit the player in front of him.


the second one is just a wrong call - but of a type you see fairly regularly.

Griff wrote:I think he just got those two wrong looking at the video.

In terms of the kicking thing. My understanding is that yes, it's down to the ref to adjudge whether it was a deliberate drop to the foot to kick on or whether it was knocked on and kicked at the last minute to disguise it/try to make something out of it. I've seen plenty of accidental drops that were subsequently kicked or 'grubbered' being given as knockons.  

Griff, is that right? I'm surprised, only 'cos I've seen plenty of players juggle forward with a ball before bringing it back under control, without any knock-on being given - i thought that a ball had to hit the ground or another player forward of the point of release for a knock-on to be given?

Asbo,

I think the key is that it needs to be brought under control again before it hits the ground or another player if it has gone forward.

If a player fumbles the ball and then manages to kick it before it hits the ground it can still be a knock-on. I have seen at least one of these called this season and the ref explained that it was because the ball had never been under control.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Griff wrote:I think he just got those two wrong looking at the video.

In terms of the kicking thing. My understanding is that yes, it's down to the ref to adjudge whether it was a deliberate drop to the foot to kick on or whether it was knocked on and kicked at the last minute to disguise it/try to make something out of it. I've seen plenty of accidental drops that were subsequently kicked or 'grubbered' being given as knockons.  

Griff, is that right?  I'm surprised, only 'cos I've seen plenty of players juggle forward with a ball before bringing it back under control, without any knock-on being given - i thought that a ball had to hit the ground or another player forward of the point of release for a knock-on to be given?

In fairness, would that not mean it would be legal to throw the ball over the head of a defender as long as you caught it again?   

It's just a bit of a grey area. I reckon, if you can claw the ball back again, its unfair to call it a knock on.

I just feel like too many refs almost call a knock on if the ball is dropped at all. They don't question it, or give any benefit of the doubt.

But as a simple rule, your hands are in front of your body - if the ball lands at your feet it has clearly not gone forward.

MrsP wrote:Asbo,

I think the key is that it needs to be brought under control again before it hits the ground or another player if it has gone forward.

If a player fumbles the ball and then manages to kick it before it hits the ground it can still be a knock-on. I have seen at least one of these called this season and the ref explained that it was because the ball had never been under control.

Personally i don't agree with giving Ref's anymore opportunity to make grey area judgements. Laws should have detail and should be black and white.

I say if you fumble the ball but manage to get a boot to it, play on. Its still not the ideal for the attacking team - probably a poor kick, and giving possession away.

Rugby will be better if open play is allowed to continue as much as possible.

From a refs POV both are correct and incorrect calls...

First one is fumbled, never brought under control but still drops to the ground in front of the player, meaning you could fumble 5m ahead, but to avoid the knock on the ball has to be sent the 5m back to avoid a knock on, it's not the trajectory of the ball, its bounce to first point of contact. So to judge if the ball bounce in front of any part of a players body a knock on can be adjudged.

Second one is a tough call, but as his foot is behind the ball that is an indicator of what the ref is looking for, so can be called a knock on.

It's similar to the forward pass, as in the trajectory of the ball doesn't count, it's biomechanical markers of the body used to judge.

Hope that clears it up a bit

I just love that someone called "Butterfingers" is commenting on knock-ons!!

  

hahaha

Never considered that, having had to adjust all the career due to bad hand eye coordination I should be an expert I've been bl00dy pinged so many times.

I got sick of asking for clarification so took a few refs courses!

Thought Law 12 states ground, or another player, being forward. I could look it up, but can't be bothered.

Why would it matter if the ball was under control or not if it hits the foot before going forward? A player will often unintentionally move the ball forwards at a ruck with his feet. He does not have the ball under control but this is not a knock on.

Great thread - I had no idea that the referee had to make a judgement as to whether a kick from a dropped ball was intentional in order not to be accused of a knock-on. I just assumed that the benefit of the doubt was given automatically. Incredibly tough call to make, given that refs will have less than 2 seconds to decide, based on body language.

Sub,

I think we are talking about someone losing control of the ball which then moves forward but is kicked before it hits the ground. ie. trying to disguise a knock-on by kicking the ball. I agree it is a tough call though.