What would it mean if England win with 6 first pick players missing?

Is there possibly more strength in depth to Robshaw's England today than there was in the MJ and Carling eras. Would we have beaten a very good team like Ireland with 6 players missing back then? Maybe. But to beat the best team in the NH with half the team injured, surely it would make a farce of the Lion's selection. It could be argued that a similarly injury depleted England team beat Australia quite easily in the Autumn after a heavily Welsh star laden Lions only managed to squeak through 2-1 in the summer.
Where is the true balance of power in NH rugby? Will next Sunday week provide the answer?

The answer is not a lot because every team gets injuries.

You beat Ireland at HQ by 3 points. Ireland had injuries too. The the following players missing from last year:

Sean O'Brien - Lion
Tommy Bowe - Lion
Simon Zebo - Lion (coming back from injury so not selected)
Luke Fitz - Lion
Keith Earls - Lion
Donnacha Ryan - (coming back from injury so not selected)
Dan Tuohy - Injured v Scotland

5 Lions missing from the Irish side. 7 possible first team players in total.

England also lost to last years wooden spooners.

It may do.
OR
This post will look a little silly.

I'll bite though this is a poor OP.

1 replacement lion v quite possibly, 12. If England win, the Lions is a sham?

Only 1 non Welshman starts all 3 tests and he wasn't english.

Fact is the emphatic nature of the 3rd test was more of a massive orchestral fanfare than a squeak, it's the first win since 97 and when it was England centric in 2005 the only squeaking came from SCW's buttocks.

Based on competition, the true Balance of NH rugby is in Cardiff. SH and World rugby in NZ.

GunsGerms wrote:The answer is not a lot because every team gets injuries.

You beat Ireland at HQ by 3 points. Ireland had injuries too. The the following players missing from last year:

Sean O'Brien - Lion
Tommy Bowe - Lion
Simon Zebo - Lion (coming back from injury so not selected)
Luke Fitz - Lion
Keith Earls - Lion
Donnacha Ryan - (coming back from injury so not selected)
Dan Tuohy - Injured v Scotland

5 Lions missing from the Irish side. 7 first team players in total.

England also lost to last years wooden spooners.

Okay but if fit how many of them would have been selected? SOB and Bowe? Ireland definitely have some depth as well, albeit of a slightly more aged hue.

Scratch wrote:I'll bite though this is a poor OP.

1 replacement lion v quite possibly, 12. If England win, the Lions is a sham?

Only 1 non Welshman starts all 3 tests and he wasn't  english.  

Fact is the emphatic nature of the 3rd test was more of a massive orchestral fanfare than a squeak, it's the first win since 97 and when it was England centric in 2005 the only squeaking came from SCW's buttocks.

Based on competition, the true Balance of NH rugby is in Cardiff. SH and World rugby in NZ.

Thanks for backing up my point there Scratch  

Dan Tuohy featured in our first two games so probably would have got some game time. SOB and Bowe definitely, Zebo possibly too if he didn't have an attitude injury. One of Fitz or Earls may have made the bench or team. Ryan probably not though he played all 6 nations games last year.

Who are the 6 missing English players?

Cole, Tuilagi, who else...?

6 injured players isn't actually that bad. Ireland had over 15 recently 6 nations capped players missing for the Italy match last year.

Corbs,parling,croft foden

Aparently Tuilagi may be back for the Wales game anyway.

Gunsgerms hook line and sinker for you.

If you are talking about "Lions" - England were missing the greatest Lion of all - Christian Wade....if he was fit he would have been the top try scorer in the 6 nations......

I think you use "Lions" pretty loosely.

Earls and Fitzgerald were not Lions in 2013. Zebo was barely involved.

Basically the only two proper Lions were O Brien and Bowe (

You could add wade yards Webber but they are squad players

Even if tuilagi plays 15 minutes this weekend he still makes a better bench option than Goode but doubt it will happen.

Scratch wrote:I'll bite though this is a poor OP.

1 replacement lion v quite possibly, 12. If England win, the Lions is a sham?

Only 1 non Welshman starts all 3 tests and he wasn't  english.  

Fact is the emphatic nature of the 3rd test was more of a massive orchestral fanfare than a squeak, it's the first win since 97 and when it was England centric in 2005 the only squeaking came from SCW's buttocks.

Based on competition, the true Balance of NH rugby is in Cardiff. SH and World rugby in NZ.

Plenty of English representation in the Lions with the likes of Warburton,Lydiate and North.  

sickofwendy wrote:Corbs,parling,croft foden

Croft and Foden would probably not have been picked though? Surely Wood is ahead of Croft now and Brown ahead of Foden?

Corbisiero is better than Marler. Yes.

Is Parling better than Launchbury and Lawes?

All in all England's sicklist wasnt any worse that Irelands.

GunsGerms wrote:Dan Tuohy featured in our first two games so probably would have got some game time. SOB and Bowe definitely, Zebo possibly too if he didn't have an attitude injury. One of Fitz or Earls may have made the bench or team. Ryan probably not though he played all 6 nations games last year.

  Yeah, we've got a few of them too.

I agree with everything you just said.England look better balanced now.I was merely listing the players who are out.In terms of experience Ireland probably have a little more depth than England at present,except loose head.

GunsGerms wrote:The answer is not a lot because every team gets injuries.

You beat Ireland at HQ by 3 points. Ireland had injuries too. The the following players missing from last year:

Sean O'Brien - Lion
Tommy Bowe - Lion
Simon Zebo - Lion (coming back from injury so not selected)
Luke Fitz - Lion
Keith Earls - Lion
Donnacha Ryan - (coming back from injury so not selected)
Dan Tuohy - Injured v Scotland

5 Lions missing from the Irish side. 7 possible first team players in total.

England also lost to last years wooden spooners.

If that lot were included it might decrease the average age by about three-six months If BOD, Arse and POC were dropped.

And don't go claiming that Wales won the wooden spoon. Bad form.

GunsGerms wrote:Who are the 6 missing English players?

Cole, Tuilagi, who else...?

6 injured players isn't actually that bad. Ireland had over 15 recently 6 nations capped players missing for the Italy match last year.

Corbs, Cole, Vini, Tuilagi, Yarde, Wade - I'm talking about the next game.

It's obvious, it would mean that some of the missing 6 players were no longer first pick. This happens in team sports - people are injured, others take their place and one or two turn out to be better. It's easy to understand. The hard bit is selecting the right replacements.

Corbs
Cole
Billy V
Manu
Yarde
Wade
(Flood)

Got to assume that all start except 1 off the bench

But it's the FR and Manu who we really really really miss

Wade has never been capped and Yarde has 2 caps. Maybe they wouldn't have been picked anyway.

GunsGerms wrote:Wade has never been capped and Yarde has 2 caps. Maybe they wouldn't have been picked anyway.

Over Nowell and May? If fit they would certainly have started the 6N.

You forgot the two Lions - Croft and Parling.

Wade played v argies in summer,motm

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:The answer is not a lot because every team gets injuries.

You beat Ireland at HQ by 3 points. Ireland had injuries too. The the following players missing from last year:

Sean O'Brien - Lion
Tommy Bowe - Lion
Simon Zebo - Lion (coming back from injury so not selected)
Luke Fitz - Lion
Keith Earls - Lion
Donnacha Ryan - (coming back from injury so not selected)
Dan Tuohy - Injured v Scotland

5 Lions missing from the Irish side. 7 possible first team players in total.

England also lost to last years wooden spooners.

If that lot were included it might decrease the average age by about three-six months If BOD, Arse and POC were dropped.

They are all under 30 Portnoy except Bowe who turned 30 last week.

Fitz 26
Earls 26
Zebo 23
Dan Tuohy 28
SOB 27

All pretty young. Whats your obsession with age anyway?

BOD, POC and Darce are all over 33. You're way off as usual.

Imagine the 03 side without Vickery, Leonard, Dayglo, Greenwood, Cohen, Robinson. Can't imagine that team beating many SH teams. An encouraging thought for an England fan today.

beshocked wrote:You forgot the two Lions - Croft and Parling.

Good point. Although I don't think Parling would make the team but Croft, certainly. Make that 7 missing. Great strength in depth.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Wade has never been capped and Yarde has 2 caps. Maybe they wouldn't have been picked anyway.

Over Nowell and May? If fit they would certainly have started the 6N.

How do you know they are up to it if they have never played in the 6 nations yet?

GunsGerms wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Wade has never been capped and Yarde has 2 caps. Maybe they wouldn't have been picked anyway.

Over Nowell and May? If fit they would certainly have started the 6N.

How do you know they are up to it if they have never played in the 6 nations yet?

But they would have been first pick. How they fared is another point. Yarde looked the biz in the Autumn and Wade's league form speaks for itself. Yes, but no guarantees.

beshocked wrote:

Scratch wrote:I'll bite though this is a poor OP.

1 replacement lion v quite possibly, 12. If England win, the Lions is a sham?

Only 1 non Welshman starts all 3 tests and he wasn't  english.  

Fact is the emphatic nature of the 3rd test was more of a massive orchestral fanfare than a squeak, it's the first win since 97 and when it was England centric in 2005 the only squeaking came from SCW's buttocks.

Based on competition, the true Balance of NH rugby is in Cardiff. SH and World rugby in NZ.

Plenty of English representation in the Lions with the likes of Warburton,Lydiate and North.  

All world class players who decided they would rather play in Wales, speaks volumes

Perhaps the 6 replacements are actually superior to the "first" picks? It's all a matter of perception and selectorial preference really.

The replacements may look better because the side has better balance and certain players have more experience.

Scratch wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Scratch wrote:I'll bite though this is a poor OP.

1 replacement lion v quite possibly, 12. If England win, the Lions is a sham?

Only 1 non Welshman starts all 3 tests and he wasn't  english.  

Fact is the emphatic nature of the 3rd test was more of a massive orchestral fanfare than a squeak, it's the first win since 97 and when it was England centric in 2005 the only squeaking came from SCW's buttocks.

Based on competition, the true Balance of NH rugby is in Cardiff. SH and World rugby in NZ.

Plenty of English representation in the Lions with the likes of Warburton,Lydiate and North.  

All world class players who decided they would rather play in Wales, speaks volumes

  Only a Welshman would call Lydiate and Warburton world class.

North - sure he's world class. I'll grant you that.

Lydiate being able to tackle well does not mean he's world class. If it was that simple you could label numerous players world class.  

Typical Welsh hype thinking all your players are world class. If that was the case surely it wouldn't take you so long to beat a tri nations side.

I don't think Wales have ever beaten a tri nations side with Gatland in charge.  

Lydiate is a fine player and a little under rated. He is as good if not better than Wood or Croft IMO. Warburton is inconsistent but on form also excellent.

beshocked wrote:

Scratch wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Scratch wrote:I'll bite though this is a poor OP.

1 replacement lion v quite possibly, 12. If England win, the Lions is a sham?

Only 1 non Welshman starts all 3 tests and he wasn't  english.  

Fact is the emphatic nature of the 3rd test was more of a massive orchestral fanfare than a squeak, it's the first win since 97 and when it was England centric in 2005 the only squeaking came from SCW's buttocks.

Based on competition, the true Balance of NH rugby is in Cardiff. SH and World rugby in NZ.

Plenty of English representation in the Lions with the likes of Warburton,Lydiate and North.  

All world class players who decided they would rather play in Wales, speaks volumes

  Only a Welshman would call Lydiate and Warburton world class.

No, Gatland thinks Warburton is and he is a Kiwi.

North - sure he's world class. I'll grant you that.

Lydiate being able to tackle well does not mean he's world class. If it was that simple you could label numerous players world class.  
Lydiate is no showboat, usually quietly efficient and he has had a dip in form but he is an exceptional defender who exploits the blitz chop like nobody else.

Typical Welsh hype thinking all your players are world class. If that was the case surely it wouldn't take you so long to beat a tri nations side.

We did, we beat the Aussies in the summer, you're welcome

I don't think Wales have ever beaten a tri nations side with Gatland in charge.  

Get your facts right, Wales beat Aus in 2008 under Gatland.   

GunsGerms wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:The answer is not a lot because every team gets injuries.

You beat Ireland at HQ by 3 points. Ireland had injuries too. The the following players missing from last year:

Sean O'Brien - Lion
Tommy Bowe - Lion
Simon Zebo - Lion (coming back from injury so not selected)
Luke Fitz - Lion
Keith Earls - Lion
Donnacha Ryan - (coming back from injury so not selected)
Dan Tuohy - Injured v Scotland

5 Lions missing from the Irish side. 7 possible first team players in total.

England also lost to last years wooden spooners.

If that lot were included it might decrease the average age by about three-six months If BOD, Arse and POC were dropped.

They are all under 30 Portnoy except Bowe who turned 30 last week.

Fitz 26
Earls 26
Zebo 23
Dan Tuohy 28
SOB 27

All pretty young. Whats your obsession with age anyway?

BOD, POC and Darce are all over 33. You're way off as usual.

Give me your team (XV plus subs) including your notable seven and I'll caculate you average age to annual decimal point points.

I'll convert published Wiki birth dates from yy/mm/dd to IBM date and produce an arithmetic mean.
Tell me which 6Ns team you'd like me to use as the comparator (otherwise I'll take the last EvI game as default)

My obsession is only concern that the golden generation isn't actually being replaced. I've been there as an Englishman.

My instinct says that my original age estimate won't be far out.

Yawn. Broken record.

beshocked wrote:

Typical Welsh hype thinking all your players are world class. If that was the case surely it wouldn't take you so long to beat a tri nations side.
 

Rich coming from someone who thinks Saracens are the best team in the world and especially someone who thinks Ashton is a good player... Go purchase yourself a Steve Walsh mirror: https://www.606v2.com/t52251-new-product-from-the-walsh-range-taking-england-by-storm

Portnoy, Irish players don't generally peak until 25/26 so having an average age of 29 is pretty ideal imo.

Feeling relatively relaxed about a week tomorrow and the Wales game. Would love to avenge last season but the bigger picture is definitely as the OP alludes to.

We're developing good strength in depth and I would argue the following missing players would be first choice if available/fully fit:

Corbisiero - without doubt our number one loose head
Cole - without doubt our number one tight head
Billy Vunipola - first choice 8
Tom Croft - I still think Lancaster sees him as number 1 blindside. Twice a British Lion and worth noting bomber brought him back as soon as he could last 6 nations after injury. I think paired with a big carrier at 8 and a grafting 7 in Robshaw or possibly Wood, he would impress.

Tuilagi - definitely first choice outside centre

Yarde - was his first pick winger during the autumn. Ahead of May and Nowell for me

Add to that:

Wade - was also his pick for winger during the autumn until injury prevented. We don't know how he'll fair but looks a real talent

Foden - would be on bench instead of Goode.

Parling - Good player and a lion but just can't see him getting back in the side or even squad if Lawes, Launchberry and Attwood are fit.

All you have to do is take the equivalent players out of the Welsh side to think the affect it would have.

No Jenkins
No Adam Jones
No Lydiate
No Faletau
No Jonathan Davies
No North

GunsGerms wrote:Lydiate is a fine player and a little under rated. He is as good if not better than Wood or Croft IMO. Warburton is inconsistent but on form also excellent.

Lydiate is better at what exactly? other than tackling ankles at which he is excellent.

It does depend a very great deal on what you want from a blindside. If tackling is all you want then he is your guy. For a big guy he doesnt carry and he is rubbish in the lineout. He isnt especially fast and he doesnt make turnovers. He does make Warburton look good however.

Wood, Robshaw and Croft made Warburton look good last year too . Can we hope for more of the same this year? You know Lydiate is playing well if an Irishman says so!

The Demented Mole blog had a very in-depth post on Lydiate during the Lions tour. Worth a read.

http://dementedmole.com/2013/06/17/chopper/#more-3592

I think Lydiate is a good player and depending on your back row balance and your game plan he can be excellent. But that's not to say he's not limited as a 6.

A world class tackler yes but doesn't carry that effectively and not a line out presence. In some respects he reminds me of Joe Worsley who was an incredible tackler and had outstanding games for England doing just that. In fact England used to pick him instead of Neil Back on a few occasions vs SA to stop their big runners at source. Also recall him doing a job on Jamie Roberts in the 6 nations.

In some ways Tom Croft is similar in that he has some amazing strengths. In his case the pace of a winger and world class line out operator but again not a rounded 6.

Gatland obviously favoured Croft for the lions first test over Lydiate but I think it's all down to game plan and balance of pack.

For me to be world class then you need to be excellent in pretty much all facets as opposed to be incredible in one or two and average in others. This way you can contribute no matter what the game plan, back row balance or match circumstance.

What the OP is insinuating is if England lose then they've got the excuses in early. All 6 of them.

In my humble opinion, I believe the poster is anticipating an England victory (personally I'm calling it too). I believe he his merely optimistic for England's future, should they win with a weakened scrum and midfield. There's possibly validity in that viewpoint. Undoubtably England have added to their depth through necessity, despite some players having not entirely lived up to their anticipated abilities.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Portnoy, Irish players don't generally  peak until 25/26 so having an average age of 29 is pretty ideal imo.

That's an interesting comment.

What you actually said is that you think that the Ireland team is better with players who are on average 3-4 years beyond their peak.

To be fair, I don't really think that you mean that. Perhaps you'll re-phrase your post.

Even as an England fan - 6 starting players? Really? Corbs and Cole (played first 2 anyway) obviously but Croft, Parling, Wade and Yarde are no way definite starters. I'd even put Manu as a maybe.

Corbs, Cole, Billy Vunipola and Tuilagi are definitely staters for me. I also think Yarde would start ahead of both May and Nowell. So that's five.

Croft will have a battle with Wood but is undoubtably a quality player.

I agree about Parling and Wade has to prove himself.

The exciting thing is just how young all our key players are. 2015 is still way b4 they'll peak