Premier league contraction

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Hi I've recently been doing research into European football pyramids, and was going for some veiws on a proposal for a shortened premier league season. The proposal was made by then Barcelona president sandro rossell. He put forward an idea of smaller leagues across Europe so there would be more space in the calender for an expanded champions league. With the hope of weekend fixtures in european competition. It's been e easy enough to find the negatives but what positives could you see in this. Everyone's insight would be greatly appreciated. Cheers

It's a format that is more conducive with proving superiority, you can't win your domestic league because of luck but you can the champions league. All of what you've just said is an excuse trying to vindicate your rather short sighted idea, it's so elitist it's pathetic.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It's a format that is more conducive with proving superiority, you can't win your domestic league because of luck but you can the champions league. All of what you've just said is an excuse trying to vindicate your rather short sighted idea, it's so elitist it's pathetic.

So if you lose your domestic league by a point or on goal difference and go on to convincingly win the CL you can't be the best team in Europe? Your opinion is elitist where you deem only one team in a league worthy of any consideration. My idea of expanding CL, is actually the opposite of elitist.

Socal is proposing a more meritocratic system which is far from elitist.

It's not the opposite at all, your idea is the definition of elitist, only including the teams you deem worthy. If you come second in a top league then entering at the qualifying rounds is sufficient.

cdm86 wrote:Socal is proposing a more meritocratic system which is far from elitist.

Exactly, it is about opening up opportunity to compete for the European Cup to more teams. The exact opposite of an elitist view where only the league champions can be deemed worthy enough.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It's not the opposite at all, your idea is the definition of elitist, only including the teams you deem worthy. If you come second in a top league then entering at the qualifying rounds is sufficient.

You don't seem to understand or your are purposely misstating the facts. I don't deem English teams more worthy or the Bundesliga than teams in Finland or Bulgaria. UEFA does that already by the number of teams they allow from varying leagues. And they have a formula for this based on how well the leagues have competed and performed against other teams from other leagues. Lets say Turkey's economy continues to boom and they pay ever increasing salaries or Russia has the same thing happen. And they invest more in football clubs and buy better and better players. There is a formula where hypothetically they could get 4 teams in the CL. If English teams lose in European competitions and don't play well then they can lose the number of teams they have. Nothing is written in stone, no system is perfect, but UEFA didn't wake up one morning and say you know what Scotland gets 1 team and the EPL gets 4. It is based on how teams from those leagues have performed against teams from other leagues. Nothing elitist about it. If your league kicks ass in Europe you get rated as a stronger league with better representation in the CL.

Maybe for the world cup we should just let in the same number of teams for Europe as lets say for North America. Why should we deem European teams to be superior. It is the same concept. Perennial strength in a particular region gaining them heavier representation. That is why Asia with like 4 billion people gets 4 teams and Europe with less than a billion gets god knows how many teams in the world cup. I know only the European Champion and Asian Champion should go to the world cup, how can you be the best team in the world if you qualify second or third in your own region.

socal1976 wrote:The fans in Europe and the world in general would rather see Arsenal or Chelsea as 4th place team or 3rd place team getting in than watching Bulgarian champions getting thrashed by Barca or Real.

So then how will such teams get any better?

Here's an idea - because "the fans in Europe and the world", I imagine, would prefer to see Chelsea-Madrid every week, for instance, then the mind-numbingly dull plethora of games such as Chelsea-Hull or Chelsea-Cardiff, then let's just remove promotion and relegation all together.

In fact, let's just ditch the ideas of domestic leagues and trophies.

European glamour ties every week. Two times a week. Oh hell, three times a week then. Played in some oil-rich state like Qatar or....Scotland (or so Salmond tells me). No need to worry about trophies, or smaller clubs, or alienating fans.

It is all about the money.

Here endeth my sarcastic idea. But probably the way football is going. #lovenonleaguemorethanever

socal1976 wrote:Maybe for the world cup we should just let in the same number of teams for Europe as lets say for North America. Why should we deem European teams to be superior. It is the same concept. Perennial strength in a particular region gaining them heavier representation. That is why Asia with like 4 billion people gets 4 teams and Europe with less than a billion gets god knows how many teams in the world cup. I know only the European Champion and Asian Champion should go to the world cup, how can you be the best team in the world if you qualify second or third in your own region.

Not that many countries in North America, are there? Be a bit tricky.

Duty281 wrote:

socal1976 wrote:The fans in Europe and the world in general would rather see Arsenal or Chelsea as 4th place team or 3rd place team getting in than watching Bulgarian champions getting thrashed by Barca or Real.

So then how will such teams get any better?

Here's an idea - because "the fans in Europe and the world", I imagine, would prefer to see Chelsea-Madrid every week, for instance, then the mind-numbingly dull plethora of games such as Chelsea-Hull or Chelsea-Cardiff, then let's just remove promotion and relegation all together.

In fact, let's just ditch the ideas of domestic leagues and trophies.

European glamour ties every week. Two times a week. Oh hell, three times a week then. Played in some oil-rich state like Qatar or....Scotland (or so Salmond tells me). No need to worry about trophies, or smaller clubs, or alienating fans.

It is all about the money.

Here endeth my sarcastic idea. But probably the way football is going. #lovenonleaguemorethanever

Ok do you need a match to burn your strawman?

Duty281 wrote: #lovenonleaguemorethanever

Who we playing tomorrow Duty me old china?

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Question Nick, what made you more proud, beating us to the 2010 title or winning the champions league?

It's pretty damn close considering the run under Di Matteo. The 4-1 extra time win over Napoli made me jump all over the place like the 2010 title. The night of the UCL final was probably more epic than the win itself. I was in a pub on the Kings Road and spent the evening with the thousands on the streets outside The Bridge.

The 09-10 season though is the one I look back at most proudly. First double in club history, the FA cup run was exciting, the season started with the best Community Shield with the last minute Rooney goal, then to finish with 103 Premier League goals, finished the with a +71 goal difference in the league (+98 in all comps).

The Champions League was awesome and a truly unforgettable night but how can it rank over the dominance of the 09-10 season.

Proven my point exactly Nick, we as the fans will always look to the premier league first and foremost, nothing compares to getting one over your domestic rivals. Beating Barcelona in the moment is fantastic but having bragging rights over your friends or even people online is something different, something more primal.

FreekShow wrote:

Duty281 wrote: #lovenonleaguemorethanever

Who we playing tomorrow Duty me old china?

I used to love non-league football. Went to every Bedford home game for 8 years suffering playoff heartbreak every year. Then we actually made it into the Conference South winning the playoff final, led by Eagles legend Rene Howe, at Chippenham in 2006 out pitch invasion was awesome. We lost there in the semi in 2005, I went, it was a very long drive back. Then we came straight back down and suddenly the players considered themselves too good for the Southern League Premier Division and left for Conference South clubs or richer teams at the same level. We got relegated again in 08-09 but Nuneaton's liquidation and collapse saved us that embarrassment.

We once had a level playing field with teams like Ebbsfleet (Gravesend & Northfleet then), Aldershot, Salisbury and Braintree. Even Matt Tubbs feared our back four. Since 2009 Chester, Halifax and Nuneaton all folded, restarted two leagues below Bedford and now sit two leagues ahead. Even AFC Rushden & Diamonds are the verge of overtaking us. Pre-2007 we had crowds of at least 800. Now we're lucky to get 160 and sit bottom, 21 points from safety whilst everyone else has played less games, in a league with teams like Bideford, Biggleswade, Corby, Stourbridge, Poole, Hungerford, Arlesey, St Neots and Frome. Those teams were nothing, not even on our radar less than five years ago.

It's a sad state of affairs and the way it's going the end could be near for the Bedford Town Football Club.

Eeeagles!!!!!! Eeeagles!!!!!! Eeeagles!!!!!!

FreekShow wrote:

Duty281 wrote: #lovenonleaguemorethanever

Who we playing tomorrow Duty me old china?

St. Neots Town at home.

Both on 39 points currently.

CFCNick wrote:

FreekShow wrote:

Duty281 wrote: #lovenonleaguemorethanever

Who we playing tomorrow Duty me old china?

I used to love non-league football. Went to every Bedford home game for 8 years suffering playoff heartbreak every year. Then we actually made it into the Conference South winning the playoff final, led by Eagles legend Rene Howe, at Chippenham in 2006 out pitch invasion was awesome. We lost there in the semi in 2005, I went, it was a very long drive back. Then we came straight back down and suddenly the players considered themselves too good for the Southern League Premier Division and left for Conference South clubs or richer teams at the same level. We got relegated again in 08-09 but Nuneaton's liquidation and collapse saved us that embarrassment.

We once had a level playing field with teams like Ebbsfleet (Gravesend & Northfleet then), Aldershot, Salisbury and Braintree. Even Matt Tubbs feared our back four. Since 2009 Chester, Halifax and Nuneaton all folded, restarted two leagues below Bedford and now sit two leagues ahead. Even AFC Rushden & Diamonds are the verge of overtaking us. Pre-2007 we had crowds of at least 800. Now we're lucky to get 160 and sit bottom, 21 points from safety whilst everyone else has played less games, in a league with teams like Bideford, Biggleswade, Corby, Stourbridge, Poole, Hungerford, Arlesey, St Neots and Frome. Those teams were nothing, not even on our radar less than five years ago.

It's a sad state of affairs and the way it's going the end could be near for the Bedford Town Football Club.

Eeeagles!!!!!! Eeeagles!!!!!! Eeeagles!!!!!!

Truro's league, Nick! I remember Bedford beating Truro 1-0 a couple of years back in the Southern Premier in the latter's title winning season. And yes, financial hardship is very tough.

As for the team in bold, they are the only team in the world I hate with a passion. Scum.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Proven my point exactly Nick, we as the fans will always look to the premier league first and foremost, nothing compares to getting one over your domestic rivals. Beating Barcelona in the moment is fantastic but having bragging rights over your friends or even people online is something different, something more primal.

Totally agree. As a Liverpool fan I'll never truly believe we are back until we are king of the mountain again. I'd take one PL title over 3 CL triumphs every day of the week.

Will probably never happen, mind.

FreekShow wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Proven my point exactly Nick, we as the fans will always look to the premier league first and foremost, nothing compares to getting one over your domestic rivals. Beating Barcelona in the moment is fantastic but having bragging rights over your friends or even people online is something different, something more primal.

Totally agree. As a Liverpool fan I'll never truly believe we are back until we are king of the mountain again. I'd take one PL title over 3 CL triumphs every day of the week.

Will probably never happen, mind.

Maybe for you guys I would rather have the Gunners with the CL. Maybe because I am not English and don't have to worry about showing up to work and bragging to the guy next to me who is a fan of a different domestic club. Also the fact that Arsenal are probably the biggest club Europe wise to have never won the trophy is a big draw for me in seeing them get that title.

Duty281 wrote:

CFCNick wrote:

FreekShow wrote:

Duty281 wrote: #lovenonleaguemorethanever

Who we playing tomorrow Duty me old china?

I used to love non-league football. Went to every Bedford home game for 8 years suffering playoff heartbreak every year. Then we actually made it into the Conference South winning the playoff final, led by Eagles legend Rene Howe, at Chippenham in 2006 out pitch invasion was awesome. We lost there in the semi in 2005, I went, it was a very long drive back. Then we came straight back down and suddenly the players considered themselves too good for the Southern League Premier Division and left for Conference South clubs or richer teams at the same level. We got relegated again in 08-09 but Nuneaton's liquidation and collapse saved us that embarrassment.

We once had a level playing field with teams like Ebbsfleet (Gravesend & Northfleet then), Aldershot, Salisbury and Braintree. Even Matt Tubbs feared our back four. Since 2009 Chester, Halifax and Nuneaton all folded, restarted two leagues below Bedford and now sit two leagues ahead. Even AFC Rushden & Diamonds are the verge of overtaking us. Pre-2007 we had crowds of at least 800. Now we're lucky to get 160 and sit bottom, 21 points from safety whilst everyone else has played less games, in a league with teams like Bideford, Biggleswade, Corby, Stourbridge, Poole, Hungerford, Arlesey, St Neots and Frome. Those teams were nothing, not even on our radar less than five years ago.

It's a sad state of affairs and the way it's going the end could be near for the Bedford Town Football Club.

Eeeagles!!!!!! Eeeagles!!!!!! Eeeagles!!!!!!

Truro's league, Nick! I remember Bedford beating Truro 1-0 a couple of years back in the Southern Premier in the latter's title winning season. And yes, financial hardship is very tough.

As for the team in bold, they are the only team in the world I hate with a passion. Scum.

Looking at the the top scorers in the league. Chesham's Drew Roberts and Chris Dillon were at Bedford in the good times with Rene Howe. Andrew Phillips was the up and coming youth player.

Drew Roberts is great. He has a trial at Chelsea in 2004.

socal1976 wrote:

FreekShow wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Proven my point exactly Nick, we as the fans will always look to the premier league first and foremost, nothing compares to getting one over your domestic rivals. Beating Barcelona in the moment is fantastic but having bragging rights over your friends or even people online is something different, something more primal.

Totally agree. As a Liverpool fan I'll never truly believe we are back until we are king of the mountain again. I'd take one PL title over 3 CL triumphs every day of the week.

Will probably never happen, mind.

Maybe for you guys I would rather have the Gunners with the CL. Maybe because I am not English and don't have to worry about showing up to work and bragging to the guy next to me who is a fan of a different domestic club. Also the fact that Arsenal are probably the biggest club Europe wise to have never won the trophy is a big draw for me in seeing them get that title.

No offence but it's the english fans who make the clubs what they are and frankly you have no idea of the rivalries between the clubs, you've only ever read them.

socal1976 wrote:

FreekShow wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Proven my point exactly Nick, we as the fans will always look to the premier league first and foremost, nothing compares to getting one over your domestic rivals. Beating Barcelona in the moment is fantastic but having bragging rights over your friends or even people online is something different, something more primal.

Totally agree. As a Liverpool fan I'll never truly believe we are back until we are king of the mountain again. I'd take one PL title over 3 CL triumphs every day of the week.

Will probably never happen, mind.

Maybe for you guys I would rather have the Gunners with the CL. Maybe because I am not English and don't have to worry about showing up to work and bragging to the guy next to me who is a fan of a different domestic club. Also the fact that Arsenal are probably the biggest club Europe wise to have never won the trophy is a big draw for me in seeing them get that title.

If you'd had told me in 1998 when Wengers Gooners were strutting their stuff that 16 years later he'd stilll be at the club but yet to win a CL I wouldn't have believed ya. Something doesn't add up..

Quite sad that Arsenal have never lifted the big one really.

FreekShow wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

FreekShow wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Proven my point exactly Nick, we as the fans will always look to the premier league first and foremost, nothing compares to getting one over your domestic rivals. Beating Barcelona in the moment is fantastic but having bragging rights over your friends or even people online is something different, something more primal.

Totally agree. As a Liverpool fan I'll never truly believe we are back until we are king of the mountain again. I'd take one PL title over 3 CL triumphs every day of the week.

Will probably never happen, mind.

Maybe for you guys I would rather have the Gunners with the CL. Maybe because I am not English and don't have to worry about showing up to work and bragging to the guy next to me who is a fan of a different domestic club. Also the fact that Arsenal are probably the biggest club Europe wise to have never won the trophy is a big draw for me in seeing them get that title.

If you'd had told me in 1998 when Wengers Gooners were strutting their stuff that 16 years later he'd stilll be at the club but yet to win a CL I wouldn't have believed ya. Something doesn't add up..

Quite sad that Arsenal have never lifted the big one really.

Yes it is bizarre but also bizarre is the length of this trophy drought in general. When you look at the players we had in the late 90s and early 2000s we should have secured at least one of those CL titles. Oh well, hope springs eternal and there were will be more chances to do something in the future. We need to pull the trigger on a striker next year of top quality and hope the young talent keeps developing as well.

As long as Wenger is there, Arsenal will never win a CL.

They had their chance under his leadership, but it's long gone now to be a realistic possibility.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

FreekShow wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Proven my point exactly Nick, we as the fans will always look to the premier league first and foremost, nothing compares to getting one over your domestic rivals. Beating Barcelona in the moment is fantastic but having bragging rights over your friends or even people online is something different, something more primal.

Totally agree. As a Liverpool fan I'll never truly believe we are back until we are king of the mountain again. I'd take one PL title over 3 CL triumphs every day of the week.

Will probably never happen, mind.

Maybe for you guys I would rather have the Gunners with the CL. Maybe because I am not English and don't have to worry about showing up to work and bragging to the guy next to me who is a fan of a different domestic club. Also the fact that Arsenal are probably the biggest club Europe wise to have never won the trophy is a big draw for me in seeing them get that title.

No offence but it's the english fans who make the clubs what they are and frankly you have no idea of the rivalries between the clubs, you've only ever read them.

I just watch the games frankly. Although I do have an interesting little thing going with my brother. When I was a toddler we lived in north london for two years and my brother played some for Spurs youth team as a teenager he was a very good footballer. We moved to the states and he kept playing more at a weekend an amateur level while working. I played a little myself as a kid and when I started watching EPL matches I liked Arsenal the most of all the teams. So interestingly, there is a bit of North london rivalry within my own family. Although I get what your saying. I don't have visceral connection to the rivalr or can go to the games.

Good stuff Socal. My best mate is a Spurs fan so naturally I hope you take the spoils here  

i like things the way they are

i have gotten used to the champions league the way it is, that now if it were reduced i would feel we were missing out on football. i like the change in the seedings for qualifiers as well so that its now easier to qualify if your an actual champion than a 3rd/4th place team. but i do feel its plenty long enough and certainly doesn't need expanding

the league cup serves a purpose, its not high on most agendas but its a good breeding ground for the youngsters to get first team football with some of the more senior team. reserve team football is rubbish. its also a chance for a smaller club to get a trophy or in bradfords case have a money spinning run to the final.

the league should stay as it is, there is no other league in the world like the premier, or indeed the divisions below. you would never find clubs the size of forest, leeds and the two Sheffield teams in the third tier of any other country. and the depth and rich history of many of the teams in all the leagues is whats so great about english football, to restrict there chance at the big time just for making a bit more money in europe for a select few clubs is not worth it

There's good and bad points in regards to reducing the size of the premier bit if you did you would have to add teams to the championship which would be to many. Maybe making one teir 2 divisions would help solve this.
Premier 16
Championship 20
League1a 16
League1b 16
League 2 24

Just a bit weird looking, anyone have any better suggestions?