England vs Wales Match day thread

[maestegmafia]

First topic message reminder :

SIX NATIONS: ENGLAND V WALES
Venue: Twickenham Date: Sunday, 9 March Kick-off: 15:00 GMT
Coverage: Watch live on BBC One, BBC One HD, listen on BBC Radio 5 Live

England

15-Mike Brown, 14-Jack Nowell, 13-Luther Burrell, 12-Billy Twelvetrees, 11-Jonny May, 10-Owen Farrell, 9-Danny Care

1-Joe Marler, 2-Dylan Hartley, 3-David Wilson, 4-Joe Launchbury, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-Tom Wood, 7-Chris Robshaw (captain), 8-Ben Morgan

Replacements: 16-Tom Youngs, 17-Mako Vunipola, 18-Henry Thomas, 19-Dave Attwood, 20-Tom Johnson, 21-Lee Dickson, 22-George Ford, 23-Alex Goode


Wales

15-Leigh Halfpenny, 14-Alex Cuthbert, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Jamie Roberts, 11-George North, 10-Rhys Priestland, 9-Rhys Webb

1-Gethin Jenkins, 2-Richard Hibbard, 3-Adam Jones, 4-Jake Ball, 5-Alun Wyn Jones, 6-Dan Lydiate, 7-Sam Warburton (capt), 8-Taulupe Faletau

Replacements: Ken Owens, Paul James, Rhodri Jones, Andrew Coombs, Justin Tipuric, Mike Phillips, Dan Biggar, Liam Williams
MATCH OFFICIALS

Referee : Romain Poite (Fra)

Touch judges : Steve Walsh (Aus) & Lourens van der Merwe (RSA)
TV Official : Simon McDowell (Ire)


Next up for Wales is a trip to London and after all the banter coming out of the England camp it is time to finish the hype this match has been building and play some rugby. Have England improved on last year? Will home advantage be enough? Has Wales over come a trough and reached another high?

With plenty of injuries to key players, in fact some of England's very best players are out of this game, a convincing win for England over Wales will give the nation huge confidence going forward, maybe even a shot at the championship next weekend.

The build up seems to have been all about England, Wales are a known entity, twice champions in recent years with pretty much the same team they field tomorrow, little change to their game plan or style gives very little to discuss.

On the many various threads the situation is similar, all about England, with very little admiration of this perceivably over-rated Welsh team that have failed to beat a Southern Hemisphere top three team since 2008, the mark of all great sides.

In all honesty a tough and challenging end to the Six Nations will do this Welsh set up some good, possibly more good than the confidence a third consecutive championship would give them. Wales have little to lose and less to prove, a defeat in the manner of last years game would be vastly more detrimental to their hosts.

I hope all the fans enjoy the game, I am sure it will be the usual roller coaster of emotion for both Nations.

[Scratch]

I wouldn't include Wales with England & Ireland.

There's a few groups developing in the NH at certain levels with England & Ireland seeming improving game by game and Wales/France struggling to perform regularly.

1. England/Ireland
------------
3. Wales
4. France
------------
5. Scotland
6. Italy

I see decent gaps between these groups.

Wow, breathtaking analysis, did you manage this all on your own or get a monkey to help?

[Jimpy]

I wouldn't include Wales with England & Ireland.

There's a few groups developing in the NH at certain levels with England & Ireland seeming improving game by game and Wales/France struggling to perform regularly.

1. England/Ireland
------------
3. Wales
4. France
------------
5. Scotland
6. Italy

I see decent gaps between these groups.

There isn't perhaps a very big gap between England/Ireland and Wales, but there is definately a gap (forming). England and Ireland have found some consistancy and are moving forward. England look best placed since their team is younger across the board and there's room for players to grow into the role. Ireland have a few older chaps that will need to be replaced soonish, so it remains to be seen if that can be done seemlessly. Wales have stagnated and are not so much going backwards as losing ground to the others. They have the individual players to redress this, but I think the coaching staff need to have a look at themselves and either change tack or move on.

[George Carlin]

I wouldn't include Wales with England & Ireland.

There's a few groups developing in the NH at certain levels with England & Ireland seeming improving game by game and Wales/France struggling to perform regularly.

1. England/Ireland
------------
3. Wales
4. France
------------
5. Scotland
6. Italy

I see decent gaps between these groups.

Wow, breathtaking analysis, did you manage this all on your own or get a monkey to help?

Scratch - any time you'd like to give this a rest, it would be appreciated by the Mod Team.

[Breadvan]

Ok, I've now watched Scrum V highlights and have even scanned through the whole game, and I stick by my thoughts, that the game was closer than the score suggested....

....however, the only reason the game was closer, was that Halfpenny kept us in it... Now before we get some silly comments, yes I knew that was the case when I was at the game. What I mean, is that there was too many silly mistakes, no leadership on the field, aimless kicking and too too many schoolboy errors. To sum it up, the Welsh team, watching it from the comfort of my arm chair, looked clueless.

England where in control and Wales could have won it, if one or two chances had gone our way, but it if we'd had own, it would have been daylight robbery.

The main difference between the way England played us and Ireland, is Hartley... Hartley's indiscipline gave Halfpenny the chances needed to keep us in the game, where as Ireland's discipline, in kickable areas was top drawer.

I know there's a lot of wum'ing going on here, and let the victors enjoyed it while they can. But I believe true fans will realise, there really isn't much between England, Ireland and Wales at the moment, and if each of the games where played again next week, I wouldn't be surprised if we had a different result.

Well done England... You deserve the Triple Crown....  

100% spot on. My thoughts too..  

[lostinwales]

Ok, I've now watched Scrum V highlights and have even scanned through the whole game, and I stick by my thoughts, that the game was closer than the score suggested....

....however, the only reason the game was closer, was that Halfpenny kept us in it... Now before we get some silly comments, yes I knew that was the case when I was at the game. What I mean, is that there was too many silly mistakes, no leadership on the field, aimless kicking and too too many schoolboy errors. To sum it up, the Welsh team, watching it from the comfort of my arm chair, looked clueless.

England where in control and Wales could have won it, if one or two chances had gone our way, but it if we'd had own, it would have been daylight robbery.

The main difference between the way England played us and Ireland, is Hartley... Hartley's indiscipline gave Halfpenny the chances needed to keep us in the game, where as Ireland's discipline, in kickable areas was top drawer.

I know there's a lot of wum'ing going on here, and let the victors enjoyed it while they can. But I believe true fans will realise, there really isn't much between England, Ireland and Wales at the moment, and if each of the games where played again next week, I wouldn't be surprised if we had a different result.

Well done England... You deserve the Triple Crown....  

100% spot on. My thoughts too..  

I too watched scrum V and thought that a couple of the breaks that Wales made were very good and really should have lead to scores. I think its a huge sign of the pressure they were under for the majority of the match that they fluffed the final step every time. They still have a whole bunch of big powerful guys that take a lot of stopping and if they can recycle the ball quickly it shows how dangerous Wales can be. But even when they did get some momentum England were generally patient and it wasnt long before someone messed up or got caught behind the gain line. What was huge was that when Wales did have a prolonged period in the second half when they had the bulk of possession and territory, England gave them the sum total of one kick at goal, while somehow managing to get three kickable penalties against them. England really tightened up the discipline after the break.

I'd add that what the scrum V highlights didnt show was things like Phillips getting caught in possession, and the times when Wales had the ball, were trying to find gaps but were being pushed backwards.

[No9]

Ok, I've now watched Scrum V highlights and have even scanned through the whole game, and I stick by my thoughts, that the game was closer than the score suggested....

....however, the only reason the game was closer, was that Halfpenny kept us in it... Now before we get some silly comments, yes I knew that was the case when I was at the game. What I mean, is that there was too many silly mistakes, no leadership on the field, aimless kicking and too too many schoolboy errors. To sum it up, the Welsh team, watching it from the comfort of my arm chair, looked clueless.

England where in control and Wales could have won it, if one or two chances had gone our way, but it if we'd had own, it would have been daylight robbery.

The main difference between the way England played us and Ireland, is Hartley... Hartley's indiscipline gave Halfpenny the chances needed to keep us in the game, where as Ireland's discipline, in kickable areas was top drawer.

I know there's a lot of wum'ing going on here, and let the victors enjoyed it while they can. But I believe true fans will realise, there really isn't much between England, Ireland and Wales at the moment, and if each of the games where played again next week, I wouldn't be surprised if we had a different result.

Well done England... You deserve the Triple Crown....  

100% spot on. My thoughts too..  

I too watched scrum V and thought that a couple of the breaks that Wales made were very good and really should have lead to scores. I think its a huge sign of the pressure they were under for the majority of the match that they fluffed the final step every time. They still have a whole bunch of big powerful guys that take a lot of stopping and if they can recycle the ball quickly it shows how dangerous Wales can be. But even when they did get some momentum England were generally patient and it wasnt long before someone messed up or got caught behind the gain line. What was huge was that when Wales did have a prolonged period in the second half when they had the bulk of possession and territory, England gave them the sum total of one kick at goal, while somehow managing to get three kickable penalties against them. England really tightened up the discipline after the break.

I'd add that what the scrum V highlights didnt show was things like Phillips getting caught in possession, and the times when Wales had the ball, were trying to find gaps but were being pushed backwards.

On the first point, I think the Poite at that point was starting to believe the English front row that, "its not us Guv, we're the nice guys"... But I wasn't going to say that, because I JUST KNOW someone will pick up on this now and say I'm blaming the ref for the defeat...   

Agree on the second point, that's why I watched my own "fast forwarded" highlights of the whole game as well as the Scrum V.

[gregortree]

Another England / Wales matchup....
Another request by the scrum coaches for front row 'clarification' ....

Do the refs really know what is going on ?

[SecretFly]

Another England / Wales matchup....
Another request by the scrum coaches for front row 'clarification' ....

Do the refs really know what is going on ?

Course they do.  It's the price you pay for reffing an England V Wales game.  Those two sides always think they know more about scrums than the ref.   An English ref should ref the English put ins and a Welsh ref should do the Welsh ones.  Fair is fair.  And the scrums would work perfectly each and everytime.

[ChequeredJersey]

Well, it's not exactly the only time this season (3rd) that Jenkins has been in trouble for his scrummaging, is it?

[dummy_half]

No9 / Breadvan / LIW

I've re-watched the game and can certainly understand your points. England dominated the first half in particular and it was only various silly penalties and 1/2p's exemplary kicking that kept the score reasonably close - Wales did very little constructively to win these penalties, iirc only the one where Hartley was penalised for being off his feet came while Wales had the ball. Showed the value though of playing the game within the range of your goal kicker.

Start of the second half, Wales came out and started to play a bit of rugby until the sin binning of Jenkins, and were giving us plenty to think about. Half chances when North passed forward, Roberts kicked to in goal too straight and Burrell's cover tackle stripped Webb, any of which could have seen Wales take the lead...

Players like Faletau, North, Cuthbert, Roberts etc will always be able to cause opponents trouble as ball carriers. it just beats me why Wales current game plan doesn't involve getting the ball in their hands more often and in a bit of space.

[beshocked]

I think the importance of the scrum has been exaggerated in both this game and the one last season. It's just one part of the game.

[Poorfour]

I think the importance of the scrum has been exaggerated in both this game and the one last season. It's just one part of the game.

I'm not sure about that, actually. Certainly, England's trouble at the scrum last year gifted Wales their first half lead, and effectively limited their ability to get possession anywhere usable. That in turn may well have contributed to both tries - you can only hold back the tide for so long.

By the same token, if Wales had been able to win their usual stream of scrum penalties, Halfpenny could well have kicked them to victory.

Going into the RWC, I really hope the referees can settle on a consistent interpretation of what's acceptable (if it were up to me, I'd go with whatever Brian Moore says, and failing that what the French refs say) - and do so far enough in advance that teams can adapt and turn the scrum back into a restart rather than a semi-random penalty generator.

Thought experiment: imagine if prior to the England-Wales game the coin toss gave the winner not a choice of kick-off and ends, but a choice of Romain Poite or Steve Walsh as referee. The odds on the game would move dramatically on the result of that toss, and that can't be right.

[Casartelli]

much of the time, being 1m away is a hindrance rather than a help.

unless you think the advent of TMOs is a step backwards given that their most frequent use is verifying tries in corners where the touch judge is 1m away?

of course the ball is in the air. it is always in the air when a pass is cleanly taken. but that has nothing to do with whether he jumped into the tackle or not.

did i read you telling me to put away a biased view? LOL.   

yep cos right now you are making yourself look a fool being so one eyed about a 50/50 ref decision.

become a ref, you clearly HAVE to be right and everyone else MUST agree

Enjoy your win, it's amazing how rabid some fans become when they win one solitary game against us.   

I wondered how long it would be before the faux respect gave way to the indignant and childish foot stamping. I suppose it was alright for you to be (virtually constantly) derogatory, annoying and baiting in the run up to the match? Well, you don't like it when the boot is on the other foot do you?

Wales have had their day (and yes, they have enjoyed recent and consistent success against England) but it is coming to an end. I doubt the result will be much different in Cardiff next year for the 6N, or at Twickenham during the World Cup. England have matured and are moving on with a quality squad and it would seem, decent coaching staff. They have strength in depth across all 15 positions, the confidence to take on the opposition and a solid defence. Wales have empty cupboards, a serious lack of talented back-up in some key positions and as limited game plan. The U20 result shows that England is developing a future dynasty from grass roots - it may have taken 11 years, but it's beginning to pay off. Rugby is sinusoidal in terms of its dominant teams (outside the top three), now, it's England's turn. Accept it.

One quick tap penalty and one grubber kick that bounces favourably and all of a sudden it's a rousing chorus of "rugby's coming home...."

[gregortree]

Scratch,  Casar.....
 

[Exiledinborders]

I think the importance of the scrum has been exaggerated in both this game and the one last season. It's just one part of the game.

I'm not sure about that, actually. Certainly, England's trouble at the scrum last year gifted Wales their first half lead, and effectively limited their ability to get possession anywhere usable. That in turn may well have contributed to both tries - you can only hold back the tide for so long.

By the same token, if Wales had been able to win their usual stream of scrum penalties, Halfpenny could well have kicked them to victory.

Going into the RWC, I really hope the referees can settle on a consistent interpretation of what's acceptable (if it were up to me, I'd go with whatever Brian Moore says, and failing that what the French refs say) - and do so far enough in advance that teams can adapt and turn the scrum back into a restart rather than a semi-random penalty generator.

Thought experiment: imagine if prior to the England-Wales game the coin toss gave the winner not a choice of kick-off and ends, but a choice of Romain Poite or Steve Walsh as referee. The odds on the game would move dramatically on the result of that toss, and that can't be right.

Most of the refs are fairly consistent. There are two exceptions. Chris Pollock and his one man campaign to eliminate a contest at tge ruck and so turn union into league. The othe is Steve Walsh who just seems to want to be the centre of attention.

[butterfingers]

After reading a lot of bilge from both sides I just want to say congrats to the English boys on a win we desperately needed at HQ over a team who have had our number in recent years, and comiserations to a Wales team who just seem to be misfiring right now.

[SecretFly]

After reading a lot of bilge from both sides I just want to say congrats to the English boys on a win we desperately needed at HQ over a team who have had our number in recent years, and comiserations to a Wales team who just seem to be misfiring right now.

Reason and graciousness? In the one short post?

This will never catch on. Ain't nobody got time for it.

[HammerofThunor]

Well butterfingers went to uni in Cardiff, which is why he referred to Blues as 'we', so he has a pretty good balanced perspective on these things.

Also he's apparantly from Gloucester and they're just a bit wierd.

(That's from memory so sorry if I misrepresented you butterfingers)

[gregortree]

I am a Londoner and a long time G'shire resident and Gloucester season ticket holder.
So not sure how weird that makes me. I also confess to a soft spot for Quins.

Re: Wales
Cuthbert, Morgan, etc, Gloucester have a Welsh coach and Hibbard arriving next season
Quite a lot of cross border fraternisation goes on here in the W Country.

[beshocked]

I think the importance of the scrum has been exaggerated in both this game and the one last season. It's just one part of the game.

I'm not sure about that, actually. Certainly, England's trouble at the scrum last year gifted Wales their first half lead, and effectively limited their ability to get possession anywhere usable. That in turn may well have contributed to both tries - you can only hold back the tide for so long.

By the same token, if Wales had been able to win their usual stream of scrum penalties, Halfpenny could well have kicked them to victory.

Going into the RWC, I really hope the referees can settle on a consistent interpretation of what's acceptable (if it were up to me, I'd go with whatever Brian Moore says, and failing that what the French refs say) - and do so far enough in advance that teams can adapt and turn the scrum back into a restart rather than a semi-random penalty generator.

Thought experiment: imagine if prior to the England-Wales game the coin toss gave the winner not a choice of kick-off and ends, but a choice of Romain Poite or Steve Walsh as referee. The odds on the game would move dramatically on the result of that toss, and that can't be right.

Disagree .

Danny Care's quick tap was nothing to do with a scrum. Burrell's try was nothing to do with a scrum.

Neither of Wale's two tries last season were due to superior field position from the scrum. Two Cuthbert tries due to Mike Brown being flumoxed on the wing and a decent backrow effort from Wales.

[Scrumpy]

    

[Poorfour]

Disagree .

Danny Care's quick tap was nothing to do with a scrum. Burrell's try was nothing to do with a scrum.

Neither of Wale's two tries last season were due to superior field position from the scrum. Two Cuthbert tries due to Mike Brown being flumoxed on the wing and a decent backrow effort from Wales.

That wasn't my point. Wales scrummage for penalties. If they had had their usual stream of kicks at goal, Halfpenny would have kicked more points, probably enough to put them ahead. England won by 11 points. Jenkins conceded at least 4 penalties. It doesn't matter who scored for England, or how. If you have enough 3 pointers, you can win the game. (Ref: England v Wales and England v France in RWC 03. Try count 1-4 against England.)

My argument for last year's game is a bit more tenuous, but I think it still has some merit. England had almost no meaningful possession because every time there was a scrum they either conceded 3 points or gave Wales a lineout in English territory. England had to defend for long periods and had almost no chance to get on the board. Defending for long periods with little hope of respite wears a team down. It didn't help that Brown was played out of position, but I think that England were out on their feet and that played a big part as well.

[dummy_half]

Poorfour

Largely agree with your point about last year's game - the scrum penalties played a big part in preventing England having much meaningful territory or possession. OK, Wales were the better and more intense team on the day and thoroughly deserved their win, but the score would have been closer with a different interpretation of the scrum laws. England struggeld that game partly because Brown is not a winger but more because Wood is not an international class 8, especially in a team with Croft at 6. We were beaten for dynamism in the open field and intensity and workrate at the breakdown.

I think this year it made some difference, but probably not sufficient to swing the result the other way -perhaps 2 kickable penalties for England. Also, I think England rather shut up shop in the last 15 minutes because they had an adequate lead, and could have put on more pressure to score had they needed to.

[lostinwales]

Poorfour

Largely agree with your point about last year's game - the scrum penalties played a big part in preventing England having much meaningful territory or possession. OK, Wales were the better and more intense team on the day and thoroughly deserved their win, but the score would have been closer with a different interpretation of the scrum laws. England struggeld that game partly because Brown is not a winger but more because Wood is not an international class 8, especially in a team with Croft at 6. We were beaten for dynamism in the open field and intensity and workrate at the breakdown.

I think this year it made some difference, but probably not sufficient to swing the result the other way -perhaps 2 kickable penalties for England. Also, I think England rather shut up shop in the last 15 minutes because they had an adequate lead, and could have put on more pressure to score had they needed to.

I agree with this. It is very easy to cherry pick moments from the game to prove things one way or another, but the fact is that England did have an 11 point lead so all they needed to do was make sure they played all their rugby in the welsh half. They put so much pressure on Wales that it is no surprise that the Welsh messed up the opportunities they had.

That they had those opportunities at all is a little worrying but it was down to individual welsh players doing something right (followed by something wrong..) The impression I got vs Ireland was even with the big moments, like the JL tap tackle on Kearney, that there was someone behind offering additional cover. I didnt get that impression for a couple of the Welsh breaks. But we were much more on top than vs Ireland overall.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Folks,

I'm sure you're all aware that this match is the match that causes so much work for the mods on here every year.

Just to let everyone know, we will be applying an 'act now, explain later' philosophy for the match this afternoon. If we think a post needs removed or a ban handed out we will do it without warning.

Things have been positive so far, lets keep it that way.

Best of luck to both teams and I hope it's a great game.

RDW

Best of luck MODS...! I hope you get rid of the deadwood.

Right I'm off to the game...



Let's hope it's a cracker. C'mon Wales

Surely you weren't the deadwood Maes?

Where have you gone?

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