Who's on the plane?

Think your missing the fact that Hartley had a poorish game against Wales, he almost single handedly kept Wales in it. Granted it may be a one off, but we've been here before - undisputed number 1 then starts to wane off.

I'm aware he gave away a few daft penalties nathan, but he's generally not been a penalty machine, and his basics are considerably better than Youngs. Hence for me he's a definite.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I'm aware he gave away a few daft penalties nathan, but he's generally not been a penalty machine, and his basics are considerably better than Youngs.  Hence for me he's a definite.

Wasn't it 9 or 12 points he gave Wales?

I wasn't saying Youngs should be ahead of him. In the last 3 or 4 games he hasn't been a penalty machine, he's been brilliant. but he was  a bit of a penalty machine prior to that. I disagree with saying his basics are "considerably better" than youngs, people seem to only blame the hooker for a dodgy lineout. It's not just about the throw - if a jumper jumps late, it makes it look like the throw was long etc.

What about Phil Vickery?

I agree, the lineout is a team effort and it's far too easy to just blame the hooker, but Youngs has thrown some wild ones at times, and I worry about the scrum when he comes on as well. They will both make the squad, and then it will come down to form nearer the time as to who starts I suspect, although I personally would have Hartley and Webber as my starter and bench option.

GunsGerms wrote:What about Phil Vickery?

Rumour has it that he's retiring just before the tournament!   

Also no mention of Sam Burgess? Is the WC too soon for the big lump from rugby league?

Ozzy3213 wrote:I agree, the lineout is a team effort and it's far too easy to just blame the hooker, but Youngs has thrown some wild ones at times, and I worry about the scrum when he comes on as well.  They will both make the squad, and then it will come down to form nearer the time as to who starts I suspect, although I personally would have Hartley and Webber as my starter and bench option.

So me a hooker who hasn't thrown a wild one now and again!!   

The scrum has been fine when he's come on, in fact he actually hooked the ball better than Hartley. Hopefully he can get his throwing sorted, we need players pushing the 1st choice ones.

I'll be amazed if he is up to speed as a union player in time Guns. He is a top class league player, but he's not as good as SBW, and even he needed a good couple of years in union before becoming international standard.

nathan wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:I agree, the lineout is a team effort and it's far too easy to just blame the hooker, but Youngs has thrown some wild ones at times, and I worry about the scrum when he comes on as well.  They will both make the squad, and then it will come down to form nearer the time as to who starts I suspect, although I personally would have Hartley and Webber as my starter and bench option.

So me a hooker who hasn't thrown a wild one now and again!!   

The scrum has been fine when he's come on, in fact he actually hooked the ball better than Hartley. Hopefully he can get his throwing sorted, we need players pushing the 1st choice ones.

I can't agree with that at all nathan. My recollection of him coming on against France was first lineout overthrown and first scrum we went backwards and conceded a penalty which they kicked (I am not solely blaming him for the scrum). For me, he is not a great scrummager. He is better for Tigers than England as the gap in quality between the Tigers and the opposition props is generally quite big. When it's not as big, he has struggled.

Do we know it's definitely a 30 man squad? I thought match day squads were still 22 at the last World Cup so I was wondering if there was any change to the travelling party from the increase to 23.

I think you've given a fair summary of our options. What intrigues me is the way Lancaster deals with injuries. He doesn't often slot a returning player back in if the incumbent is doing a fair job.

I'm sure his attitude will change as we get nearer to the tournament, because he'll be making choices rather than assessing option. However, if a player were to be out for the next Six Nations, that could push him down the pecking order, especially if the team was going well in his absence.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I'll be amazed if he is up to speed as a union player in time Guns.  He is a top class league player,  but he's not as good as SBW, and even he needed a good couple of years in union before becoming international standard.

I agree 100%. I think Burrell and Tuilagi are the way forward anyway even if they are both 13s.

Absolutely Rugby Fan. He's got the luxury in this 6 Nations of effectively 'having a look' at players. Next year will be about nailing down the gameplan, so he'll need the guys he wants to go to the world cup to be in the team.

GunsGerms wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:I'll be amazed if he is up to speed as a union player in time Guns.  He is a top class league player,  but he's not as good as SBW, and even he needed a good couple of years in union before becoming international standard.

I agree 100%. I think Burrell and Tuilagi are the way forward anyway even if they are both 13s.

Burrell plays 12 for Saints, and I would also have Burrell and Tuilagi as my first choice centre paring right now.

Pete,

I would say that Youngs hooks for the ball better than Hartley. Being small helps there. The flip side is that the front row can be unbalanced.

Now as to the two missed lineouts against France. Lancaster and Lawes both stated that neither were Youngs fault (they would say that of course) claiming one was a timing issue by the lifters, the other a miscall - with youngs throwing to where the call was made, jumper however not.

BUT Youngs did not help his case by throwing really squint in his next appearance for tigers (against your boys).

Hartley is deservedly first choice and it helps that his reputation seems to stop him being called for squint throws. Unless Webber can get a run of games (and sort his own throwing out) Youngs is likely to stay second choice next season.

Ozzy3213 wrote:It's a 30 man squad, which is tight in terms taking adequate cover for all positions.  In 2011 Johnno went with 3 hookers, 4 props, 4 locks, 4 flankers, 2 number eights, 3 scrummies, 2 outside halfs, 3 centres and 5 back three players.  I suspect that Bomber will take 5 props, and it may be in the back row that we go one light, as he considers that both of our first choice locks can cover the blindside.

Are there not going top be 8-man benches in 2015? If so that would imply 3 specialists for each front row position and the IRB increasing the overall squad size to 31.

feels about right Ozzy. for the moment. lets hope that any changes of form happen by currently "weaker" players showing improvement...Ashton, both Youngs for example. that will give some nice selection headaches. hartley reacted well to being dropped. lets hope Ashton and bro youngs do too.

hartley clear 1st choice ahead of youngs at the moment imo.

happy days. i was a big fan of burrell before he got his cap, but have been pleasantly surprised how many people are mentioning his name now before 36 and manu. quality problem to have for Bomber.

nathan wrote:Think your missing the fact that Hartley had a poorish game against Wales, he almost single handedly kept Wales in it. Granted it may be a one off, but we've been here before - undisputed number 1 then starts to wane off.

Two of those penalties were slightly odd technical offences rather than poor play. It's hard to mark him down for catching a ricocheting ball or tackling a player who jumped into him.

Great effort Ozzy and little to object to. I think there are a couple of outsiders who might also have a chance. If Collier recovers well he could be in the mix at TH, albeit painfully inexperienced, and Wallace is surely ahead of Fraser on the flanks, albeit behind Croft, Johnson and Kvesic.

If Corbisiero's injury issues persist then I wouldn't be suprised to see Alex Waller leapfrog some of the other LH prop maybe options. He's more than held his own since Corbs injury and has more European experience than the other LH options. Plus if AC is injured then he will continue to get plenty of game time for Saints (as long as his fast improving younger brother Ethan doesn't push him out of the team).

I've not commented on Hartley since the game as being a Saints fan I'm biased but that was the first game since the 'cheat' ban that I remember him giving away daft pens again. Not blaming him on the Toby F one, the player jumped to take a poor pass and Hartley was left with a choice of 2 bad options, either pull out and let the player break the defense at full speed or make the tackle although he was airborne. Actually thought the offside one was worse and he just had a brain trump as it was pretty clear who it came off last. The playing the ball of his feet was stupid too, I could see it 6000 miles away in Canada . Webber & Tom Yongs in the sqaud for me although Buchanan at Quins if he can stay fit would be before Paice in case of injury.

Think they will go with 4 second row numbers due to CL & JL both having the ability to cover there if needed. Think if he's fit then Parling will go as the 4th lock as he's clearly rated for his leadership ability, even if it's just playing the games against the lesser teams whilst others are rested (almost like the mid week captain concept for the Lions).

Agree with the certs for the backrow although if Croft returns anything like his previous form then he will (rightly) push TJ down in the pecking order.

Totally agree on half-backs and centers but don't think they will take more than 3 wingers and instead select a second 15 and and utility back 3 player (6 in total). Think it will be Brown & Goode for 15 (Goode a 3rd choice 10 if needed) and then Foden or Watson as the utility back 3 player. Can't call who the 3 wingers will be out of Yarde, Wade, Ashton, May & Nowell (I know May & Nowell can cover 15 but think SL will want 3 players who play 15 regularly for their club).

I think that this OP is still to early.

Only after the AIs will form, fitness and who knows which players will be potentially signing abroad? That'll be the time to tell

Good summary of the party, the only thing I'd add is if Parling gets back with some form, he'd be a strong candidate for Launchbury's place.

England's in a good place for a potential GS next spring anyway - the hard way round.

PC

Will all respect to Parling, I would much rather have Launchbury. Other than the lineout, which has been going well anyway, I don't see an area where Parling is better.

Launchbury has been so key to our work at the breakdown, excellent in defence and makes some strong yards too. He's very good at being in support of the half breaks too, for me he is one of the first 5 names on the teamsheet atm

LondonTiger wrote:Pete,

I would say that Youngs hooks for the ball better than Hartley. Being small helps there. The flip side is that the front row can be unbalanced.

Now as to the two missed lineouts against France. Lancaster and Lawes both stated that neither were Youngs fault (they would say that of course) claiming one was a timing issue by the lifters, the other a miscall - with youngs throwing to where the call was made, jumper however not.

BUT Youngs did not help his case by throwing really squint in his next appearance for tigers (against your boys).

Hartley is deservedly first choice and it helps that his reputation seems to stop him being called for squint throws. Unless Webber can get a run of games (and sort his own throwing out) Youngs is likely to stay second choice next season.

I'd personally say most hookers seem to be struggling with hooking at the moment!

As for Youngs throwing he showed with the Lions, where he was the best thrower at a time when Hibbard and Best were struggling, and for the Tigers where his completion rate is up around 90% that he can throw. Just going through a blip (as most hookers do at some point) for England I feel.

The turn around in opinion to Best's throwing in the last 12 months demonstrates how people latch onto current opinion with the issue. First he was the best line-out thrower and best option at hooker for the Lions who should never have been left out the touring party. Then he became the lucky squad player who couldn't hit a barn door and vindicated Gatland's decision. Now he's throwing very well again in an Irish line-out functioning excellently!

The above to me certainly doesn't demonstrate that Youngs has no future at test level. It just shows that we need 3 good options at hooker with test experience in case one of the 3 lose form drastically at the wrong time - it happens to all hookers at some point!

The third option I'd look to develop in NZ would be Webber if he can get fit. He offers a different skill set the to both Hartley and Youngs with his very physical gain line defence and work around the fringes. All of which could be very useful in offering options in the squad moving forward.

Only I did say that this OP is 9 months too early.

'atm' is really a bit of an aside in the context of form and performance in the mid-view.

Who knows what bolters will emerge over the next twelve months?
There usually is at least one.

What (say) if Ashton* regains and is allowed to play his Saints' form?
There are too many imponderables from this far out.

*He's likely to be 'on the plane' at this stage anyway imo.

am sure you meant Sarries there Portnoy...since 2012

quinsforever wrote:am sure you meant Sarries there Portnoy...since 2012

Pretty sure he means Saints - as in since he was banned for pulling Alessana Tuilagi's hair in December 2011, his form for England has not been all that good. Before that point he had played 18 times for England and scored 15 tries. After 19 times and 3 tries.

Sorry Ozzy, but I thought this was going to be about who gets the opportunity to travel south in June?

Far more immediate and given the fixture balls up quite interesting as to who in fact will be selected in to play from a big old squad?

king_carlos wrote:


The third option I'd look to develop in NZ would be Webber if he can get fit. He offers a different skill set the to both Hartley and Youngs with his very physical gain line defence and work around the fringes. All of which could be very useful in offering options in the squad moving forward.

Agree with this.

We have all been impressed by our pack so far, but we aren't due to face the ultimate challenge for a Test pack (the Boks) before the WC.

Thinking back to Bismarck and Alberts throwing our forwards round in that first test still gives me a shudder. The likes of Webber who seem to offer brick wall defence need to be in and around the squad to give us options. This also applies to people like Attwood and Garvey, who look to be as physical

Oh actually, we are playing South Africa in the autumn! Well the point still stands, we need to be able to front up physically vs them, good to give it a go before the World Cup!

LondonTiger wrote:

quinsforever wrote:am sure you meant Sarries there Portnoy...since 2012

Pretty sure he means Saints - as in since he was banned for pulling Alessana Tuilagi's hair in December 2011, his form for England has not been all that good. Before that point he had played 18 times for England and scored 15 tries. After 19 times and 3 tries.

furry muff. he's been scoring a lot this season for sarries so i thought that was what was being referred to.

quinsforever wrote:furry muff.

So glad that was not my father's saying. My daughters have adopted his equivalent "Fairy Snuff".

Sorry for my bias here...but i think Dom Barrow (SR), Scott Wilson (TH) and Keiron Brookes (TH) will all be in the thoughts..especially Wilson and Barrow.

Possibly a bit too early for Wilson and Barrow I reckon GF .. Brookes has a shot if he plays well after the ban and gets on to the NZ tour

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sorry for my bias here...but i think Dom Barrow (SR), Scott Wilson (TH) and Keiron Brookes (TH) will all be in the thoughts..especially Wilson and Barrow.

Sorry Geordie I just can't see it myself.

In all three's positions there are other candidates who aside from the fact they may or may not be better which is tough to judge, are all getting more higher level rugby for better sides and a greater chance to show off to Lancaster. I just can't see any Falcons players getting enough top level appearances to grab SL's attention before the WC (realistically it'll need to be before the '15 6N's) unless they play a stormer for the Saxons, which is tough with so few games and rotation.

Oh and good article Ozzy!

Agree with all of that really.

What do people think about Mako's scrummaging though? When he came on we got penalised at the next two scrums competing well when Marler was on.

Now I don't think TY's had come on yet (may be wrong) but Paul James was on for Wales so was it more to do with him being a lot more technical player or Mako's weakness at prop?

His loose game is outstanding still though and I'd perhaps look at starting him against Italy so he can show how good he is (Marler could do with a rest too).

yappysnap wrote:Oh and good article Ozzy!

Agree with all of that really.

What do people think about Mako's scrummaging though? When he came on we got penalised at the next two scrums competing well when Marler was on.

Now I don't think TY's had come on yet (may be wrong) but Paul James was on for Wales so was it more to do with him being a lot more technical player or Mako's weakness at prop?

His loose game is outstanding still though and I'd perhaps look at starting him against Italy so he can show how good he is (Marler could do with a rest too).

Id have to check again but the 1st scrum when Mako came on was a mess but the others were OK

David Denton should not be in the Scotland starting 15 this season never mind a 6Ns one  The half wit gave him MoM last Saturday is clearly certifiable !

T Youngs throwing has been dreadful for the majority of the AI & 6N, I can't believe people are still defending him.

I'd like Webber to be given a shot at some point and see if he can get the backup spot to Hartley who has the 2 jersey 100% nailed on.

I think Slater has a good shot of getting a spot being able to cover 6 and lock, he's also a good line out option. I'd have him ahead of Attwood personally but SL seems a fan.

PDJ has slipped off the radar, Brookes has an outside shot if he gets a good run of games for us. I'd agree on Alex Waller too, he being a real force in the set piece, if Corbs doesn't make it I think he'd make a better option than Mullen and even possibly Mako who can struggle in the set piece.

Ozzy3213

Mind if I copy your idea for Scotland? I'll credit you. If not, as you're a mod you can delete the thread.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:T Youngs throwing has been dreadful for the majority of the AI & 6N, I can't believe people are still defending him.

I'd like Webber to be given a shot at some point and see if he can get the backup spot to Hartley who has the 2 jersey 100% nailed on.

I think Slater has a good shot of getting a spot being able to cover 6 and lock, he's also a good line out option. I'd have him ahead of Attwood personally but SL seems a fan.

PDJ has slipped off the radar, Brookes has an outside shot if he gets a good run of games for us. I'd agree on Alex Waller too, he being a real force in the set piece, if Corbs doesn't make it I think he'd make a better option than Mullen and even possibly Mako who can struggle in the set piece.

Agree completely Sergeant.  Youngs needs time to get his lineout under control.  Until then I cannot see him as a real option for England.  Other Hookers need to be given a chance.  If Youngs does get himself fixed, then he is a good backup to Hartley.  But we still need to know who would backup Youngs, no?

Agree about Slater, he certainly seems to be developing nicely.  And provides more options since he can cover two positions.  And agree about the front row.  PDJ has regressed this season and I think my Aunt Mary could out-scrummage him right now.  I would really like to see Brookes and Waller get some time.  Waller, in particular, is part of one of the best scrums in England.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:T Youngs throwing has been dreadful for the majority of the AI & 6N, I can't believe people are still defending him.

I'd like Webber to be given a shot at some point and see if he can get the backup spot to Hartley who has the 2 jersey 100% nailed on.

I think Slater has a good shot of getting a spot being able to cover 6 and lock, he's also a good line out option. I'd have him ahead of Attwood personally but SL seems a fan.

I would disagree that Youngs throwing has been "dreadful". It has not been great, but the failings have grown in the retelling. Also I still stand by my previous statements that Youngs would have been pinged for not straight for the first two Hartley threw against Wales, and pilloried for the one that AWJ stole, even though that was a good read by Jones.

To show this is not simply club bias, I also disagree about Ed Slater. I love his attitude, and feel he is an excellent premiership player, but not good enough for international rugby.

For me, the big question is why would they need a plane to get to a World Cup in their home country? The correct answer to the question 'who's on the plane?' is... nobody is on the plane, the players will simply be driving to a training ground which is conveinently located in England. A bus should prove sufficient for transporting the team to match venues, etc.

Notch wrote:For me, the big question is why would they need a plane to get to a World Cup in their home country? The correct answer to the question 'who's on the plane?' is... nobody is on the plane, the players will simply be driving to a training ground which is conveinently located in England. A bus should prove sufficient for transporting the team to match venues, etc.

Britain isnt many of the players home country though   

Youngs impact off the bench has also been affected by timing. In both the NZ and France games he has come on with 20 to go and thrown poorly. Both times leading to momentum shifting back to the opposition. Momentum shifts regularly during the first 60 minutes but the need for it is intensified during the last 20. Hence Young's mistakes have been magnified.

Unfortunately it also highlights why, until he can tighten his game, he shouldn't be considered a bench option for England.

Nematode wrote:Ozzy3213

Mind if I copy your idea for Scotland? I'll credit you. If not, as you're a mod you can delete the thread.

Fill your boots and seriously no need for crediting!

I think he will take a utility lock such as Slater, otherwise we could be up the Kyber if Woods gets injured. BV can play 6 but neither he or Morgan are renowned for completing 80 minutes. He has to take more than 2 locks anyway and Slater so perm any one out of Slater, Kruis or even A N Other if they can cover 6. The last thing we need to do is split the JL/CL partnership to play one at 6

Alex Waller is a good shout, I have not seen anyone consistently get the better of him this year. He is still keeping Corbs place warm, and if Corbs is fit no one else will go, but he just learns so quick. If his opposite number does him once, he rarely does it again, AW has already learnt and countered it.

Foden is back and was always ahead of Goode in the pecking order, that he can cover wing as well makes him more useful as a touring squad player.

Is Wade due back before the end of the season, can't see SL taking a player only just back from injury and with little game time under his belt. Yarde was the 1st choice and is back playing now, is I think he will go, also May.


As an absolute bolter Cipriani, if he keeps up his form and current attitude with Sale. Offers a plan B at 10 and can cover 15.

LondonTiger wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:T Youngs throwing has been dreadful for the majority of the AI & 6N, I can't believe people are still defending him.

I'd like Webber to be given a shot at some point and see if he can get the backup spot to Hartley who has the 2 jersey 100% nailed on.

I think Slater has a good shot of getting a spot being able to cover 6 and lock, he's also a good line out option. I'd have him ahead of Attwood personally but SL seems a fan.

I would disagree that Youngs throwing has been "dreadful". It has not been great, but the failings have grown in the retelling. Also I still stand by my previous statements that Youngs would have been pinged for not straight for the first two Hartley threw against Wales, and pilloried for the one that AWJ stole, even though that was a good read by Jones.

To show this is not simply club bias, I also disagree about Ed Slater. I love his attitude, and feel he is an excellent premiership player, but not good enough for international rugby.

Saying he throwing "has not been great" suggests it's been ok. It hasn't been ok, it's been dreadful. He's missed the majority of his throws and often not by a small margin.

I like Youngs work around the pitch but his throwing is way off the standard required.

Watch out for LC-D making a late run for the plane

As a loosehead or hooker Asbo?

If he is fit I would like to see Kitchener given a shot at the 4th SR spot. Club bias may come into that again but I think he has been superb so far this season. Unfortunately, he does seem to get injured a lot which might stop him getting the chance to show what he can do. I would definitely have him ahead of Slater.

As far as Youngs goes, I thought he had a very positive impact on the game on Sunday. He came on, hit his throws, hit rucks and tackled like he always does. It is only one game and we were in a solid position when he came on but it was definitely more like the Tigers version we see week in week out.

In terms of the squad you put up Ozzy, I agree with all of that. I think Croft will completely depend on if he is fit. If he is fit and has played rugby then I think he is a cert to be in the squad.