Why wasn't this a red card?

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If not - why on EARTH was it not cited and the thug Irish scumbag banned?

It is a flying headbutt to the neck and head.

Discrageful.

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I love the way people say Healy has lost his cool in the past as if he is some sort of untamable beast who intentionally mames players whenever he takes to the field. He stamped on Cole who was illegaly slowing down the ball in the ruck. This is the only incident in 45 test matches he has been banned for. The reality is his diciplinary record is fairly exemplarly for a prop forward.

Well he did lose his cool in that match. Watch it again. He was right on and over the edge of what was acceptable for an extended period and could have easily got into more trouble than he did.

Do try and understand this isnt an attack on him as a person or as a rugby player. He is fantastic. A 'force of nature' and a player who would walk into any team in the world. But nobody is perfect *. He is also prone to acts of stupidity and losing his cool.

As for the Picamoles incident and your comment as to what his intentions were and if they are relevant. Well I'd like to know that too, as diving headfirst over a ruck on your goal line has to lead to some serious questions.

*except for Brown obviously...

In what match? The England game? Yes he got a fair ban for a stamp.

How is he prone to acts of stupidity and losing his cool? His diciplinary record suggests you are talking nonssnse. In 45 games he has one yellow card and one short ban.

OK he is a saint, pure as driven snow he helps old ladies across the street and re-homes kittens and puppies. What was he trying to do at that ruck exactly?

lostinwales wrote:

OK he is a saint, pure as driven snow he helps old ladies across the street and re-homes kittens and puppies. What was he trying to do at that ruck exactly?

Are any prop forwards Saints? Probably not, the point is he isnt any worse than anyone else with a similar diciplinary record which is a pretty good record.

Like I said based on precedent you could both rationally conclude he doesnt deserve a ban or give him up to a two week ban depending on whether a citing panel concludes there is intent or not. I havent seen a replay where you can see his eyes and where he is looking so for all I know he was challenging for the ball.

You are allowing your biases cloud your judgement. You have no clue what the intent was, do you?

How long a ban do you think Owen Farrell deserved for the incident in the Italy game?

GunsGerms wrote:How long a ban do you think Owen Farrell deserved for the incident in the Italy game?

I am not biased in this case, unless you count bias against violent play. I havent said Healy is a thug or used any questionable terms in describing him, other than saying what he did was very stupid and should have been cited, even if the end result was that they gave him a couple of biscuits with his slap on the wrist and sent him on his way. I dont really care about the possible effects on the result of the match either. Ireland were worthy championship winners. But that doesnt take away from the fact that Healy's actions at that ruck were stupid and potentially dangerous, and I am yet to see an argument that he should not have got a card and/or citing.

Owen Farrell is a separate issue and nothing to do with this thread. Bringing him in suggests bias on your side. For what its worth seeing as Farrell was underneath the Italian and the Italian wasnt hurt I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, but I am aware that similar kinds of moves could cause damage.

I'd say that the number of and length of threads about the Healy incident vs the Farrell incident, despite the frequent claims (again) that Farrell is a thug, speaks volumes

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:How long a ban do you think Owen Farrell deserved for the incident in the Italy game?

Owen Farrell is a separate issue and nothing to do with this thread. Bringing him in suggests bias on your side. For what its worth seeing as Farrell was underneath the Italian and the Italian wasnt hurt I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, but I am aware that similar kinds of moves could cause damage.

Off the ball for absolutely no reason he wraps his arm around an Italy player's neck and suplexes him head first into the ground. There is no logical reason to do this and therefore was much more worthy of a ban. There is no defense for this.

Saying Healy's actions were stupid suggests you believe he intentionally headbutted Picamoles. Is this what you think? Im not sure how anyone can come to this conculsion. Please explain.

Still not defending your guy, just trying to distract attention. Start a new thread about OF if its that much of an issue.

lostinwales wrote:Still not defending your guy, just trying to distract attention. Start a new thread about OF if its that much of an issue.

You are not answering my questions.

Just pointing out the hypocracy of some England fans who are "outraged" by Healy but feel the most petulant player in the 6 nations has no case to answer re the Italy incident. Its hard to take people seriously when that is the case.

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Still not defending your guy, just trying to distract attention. Start a new thread about OF if its that much of an issue.

You are not answering my questions.

Just pointing out the hypocracy of some England fans who are "outraged" by Healy but feel the most petulant player in the 6 nations has no case to answer re the Italy incident.

I have answered your questions. Maybe you havent read my comments fully. Please write them out again if you feel you need more input. This thread is apparently about Healy though. If OF is such a terror then you should start a different thread so you focus on him rather than drag attention away from Healy.

I am an England supporter. I'd add that in the Eng Ire match I think I saw someone take out Sexton with a latish tackle when he was kicking the ball, but it was right at the corner of the TV shot and I couldnt make out who hit him. Its probably worth more of a look than OF's actions.

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Still not defending your guy, just trying to distract attention. Start a new thread about OF if its that much of an issue.

You are not answering my questions.

Just pointing out the hypocracy of some England fans who are "outraged" by Healy but feel the most petulant player in the 6 nations has no case to answer re the Italy incident.

I have answered your questions. Maybe you havent read my comments fully. Please write them out again if you feel you need more input. This thread is apparently about Healy though. If OF is such a terror then you should start a different thread so you focus on him rather than drag attention away from Healy.

I am an England supporter. I'd add that in the Eng Ire match I think I saw someone take out Sexton with a latish tackle when he was kicking the ball, but it was right at the corner of the TV shot and I couldnt make out who hit him. Its probably worth more of a look than OF's actions.

GunsGerms wrote:
"Saying Healy's actions were stupid suggests you believe he intentionally headbutted Picamoles. Is this what you think? Im not sure how anyone can come to this conculsion. Please explain.."

The incident you refer to was on Conor Murray and it was Owen Farrell taking him out with a shoulder charge.

Start your own thread on Farrell if you want.

We're getting all this stuff about the dangers of concussion at all levels of rugby, and yet it seems that a flying headbutt isn't condemned, or investigated through the citing system.

Doesn't seem right.

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Still not defending your guy, just trying to distract attention. Start a new thread about OF if its that much of an issue.

You are not answering my questions.

Just pointing out the hypocracy of some England fans who are "outraged" by Healy but feel the most petulant player in the 6 nations has no case to answer re the Italy incident.

I have answered your questions. Maybe you havent read my comments fully. Please write them out again if you feel you need more input. This thread is apparently about Healy though. If OF is such a terror then you should start a different thread so you focus on him rather than drag attention away from Healy.

I am an England supporter. I'd add that in the Eng Ire match I think I saw someone take out Sexton with a latish tackle when he was kicking the ball, but it was right at the corner of the TV shot and I couldnt make out who hit him. Its probably worth more of a look than OF's actions.

GunsGerms wrote:
"Saying Healy's actions were stupid suggests you believe he intentionally headbutted Picamoles. Is this what you think? Im not sure how anyone can come to this conculsion. Please explain.."

The incident you refer to was on Conor Murray and it was Owen Farrell taking him out with a shoulder charge.

Start your own thread on Farrell if you want.

Thanks for telling me what I saw but this was a separate incident and nothing to do with OF - as I tried and failed to make clear to you.

Still ignoring my question.

GunsGerms wrote:How long a ban do you think Owen Farrell deserved for the incident in the Italy game?

Answered. None. Reasons given above.

GunsGerms wrote:
Saying Healy's actions were stupid suggests you believe he intentionally headbutted Picamoles. Is this what you think? Im not sure how anyone can come to this conculsion. Please explain.

I dont know if he intentionally headbutted Picamoles. I do know he launched himself head first over a ruck on his own line and that the actions could have been very dangerous. I do think they should have been explored further. Its what we have been discussing endlessly in this thread but as usual you are looking to ignore any sensible arguments and instead cherry pick and distract.

Nobody is saying Hogg was intending to smash Biggar in the face, just that he intended to smash him. It went wrong and he was deservedly sent off.

Happy now?

Haha you are getting yourself in a twist over some pretty fair questions. I also think it should have been cited so he can explain his actions. That said I still maintain that it isnt possible to conclude from any clip I have seen that Healy was intending to hurt anyone whereas Farrells actions cannot be explained in any way by any legitimate rugby reasons so therefore he is much more fortunatue not to be cited and banned.

Wasn't Farell trying to get the Italian tackler away from the ball? High tackle pulling the player away from the ball. Penalty definitely, yellow possible, not really a red.

Healy, the best he was going for was slowing the ball, worst trying to headbutt but there's enough doubt there. Probably a yellow due to where they were on the pitch for going off his feet.

If OF pulled a stunt like that and hurt somebody I would be quite happy to see him being cited/banned/ etc.

Rugby is always a delicate balancing act between aggression and control. You dont want the niggle taken out but you dont want outright violence and people getting hurt.

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
Saying Healy's actions were stupid suggests you believe he intentionally headbutted Picamoles. Is this what you think? Im not sure how anyone can come to this conculsion. Please explain.

I dont know if he intentionally headbutted Picamoles. I do know he launched himself head first over a ruck on his own line and that the actions could have been very dangerous. I do think they should have been explored further. Its what we have been discussing endlessly in this thread but as usual you are looking to ignore any sensible arguments and instead cherry pick and distract.

Nobody is saying Hogg was intending to smash Biggar in the face, just that he intended to smash him. It went wrong and he was deservedly sent off.

Happy now?

Should he have gone ribs first, arse?

Submachine wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
Saying Healy's actions were stupid suggests you believe he intentionally headbutted Picamoles. Is this what you think? Im not sure how anyone can come to this conculsion. Please explain.

I dont know if he intentionally headbutted Picamoles. I do know he launched himself head first over a ruck on his own line and that the actions could have been very dangerous. I do think they should have been explored further. Its what we have been discussing endlessly in this thread but as usual you are looking to ignore any sensible arguments and instead cherry pick and distract.

Nobody is saying Hogg was intending to smash Biggar in the face, just that he intended to smash him. It went wrong and he was deservedly sent off.

Happy now?

Should he have gone ribs first, arse?

Maybe he should not have gone at all. If he was going for the ball maybe he should have had his arms out. Little things, and dont call me arse...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wasn't Farell trying to get the Italian tackler away from the ball? High tackle pulling the player away from the ball. Penalty definitely, yellow possible, not really a red.

Healy, the best he was going for was slowing the ball, worst trying to headbutt but there's enough doubt there. Probably a yellow due to where they were on the pitch for going off his feet.

He pulled him away from a maul. Fair enough, however, once removed from the maul he continued to hold the Italian around the neck and then after a while suplex him to the ground head first. Red card, no question about it. Very dangerous and absolutely no reason for it.

I'd have to disagree. Farrell fell backwards with him still in the high tackle. The reason for it was so the Italian didn't steal the ball. High tackle, maybe yellow. Certainly less dangerous than you see with people grabbing players at rucks and twisting them off their feet.

Unbelievable double standard being shown from certain English fans.

Me?

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wasn't Farell trying to get the Italian tackler away from the ball? High tackle pulling the player away from the ball. Penalty definitely, yellow possible, not really a red.

Healy, the best he was going for was slowing the ball, worst trying to headbutt but there's enough doubt there. Probably a yellow due to where they were on the pitch for going off his feet.

He pulled him away from a maul. Fair enough, however, once removed from the maul he continued to hold the Italian around the neck and then after a while suplex him to the ground head first. Red card, no question about it. Very dangerous and absolutely no reason for it.

You are literally the only person on the planet that thinks that is a red card. Guns, you're getting quite a rep on here for odd comments mate. I think you're probably on the wind-up. At least I hope so.

Cyril wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wasn't Farell trying to get the Italian tackler away from the ball? High tackle pulling the player away from the ball. Penalty definitely, yellow possible, not really a red.

Healy, the best he was going for was slowing the ball, worst trying to headbutt but there's enough doubt there. Probably a yellow due to where they were on the pitch for going off his feet.

He pulled him away from a maul. Fair enough, however, once removed from the maul he continued to hold the Italian around the neck and then after a while suplex him to the ground head first. Red card, no question about it. Very dangerous and absolutely no reason for it.

You are literally the only person on the planet that thinks that is a red card. Guns, you're getting quite a rep on here for odd comments mate. I think you're probably on the wind-up. At least I hope so.

Couldn't agree more. A player from another nation does something wrong and they should be hung, drawn and quartered, an Irish player (well a Leinster one anyway) does something and everyone has double standards.

Some people should get a grip on reality. Healy and farrel incidents are marginal red cards if anything, again there was no intent to hurt.

here's red card incident (none was given), one that should have warranted two very long bans. Poor guy might not recover from this. made me sick

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-BmKXU12yE

That is terrible.

I hope the injured player recovers.

I have no idea about the rules of RL but, would that be a foul in Rugby Union? I think it would be regarded as legal but with a horrific out come, no?

Anyway, I wish the injured player well.

Hi MrsP
I hope this would be regarded at least as reckless behaviour. One tackler is lifting the guy a bit too high while the other is pushing him down.

Cyril wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:He pulled him away from a maul. Fair enough, however, once removed from the maul he continued to hold the Italian around the neck and then after a while suplex him to the ground head first. Red card, no question about it. Very dangerous and absolutely no reason for it.

You are literally the only person on the planet that thinks that is a red card. Guns, you're getting quite a rep on here for odd comments mate. I think you're probably on the wind-up. At least I hope so.

So sorry Cyril. I will try to make sure my post are more in line with yours in future. Just pointing out a double standard amongst some English fans. If you cant handle that I suggest rugby forums arent for you. Maybe you are too sensitive to handle diverse opinions?

I don't know Whocares. I suspect the problem was that the weight of 4 rugby players landed on the guy's flexed neck at the same time.

One leg was lifted but his other leg remained on the ground. The problem was not the height he fell from, which was not much, but rather the weight of bodies which all landed on his neck which he had flexed.

As I said, terrible but would it be illegal in RU?

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:He pulled him away from a maul. Fair enough, however, once removed from the maul he continued to hold the Italian around the neck and then after a while suplex him to the ground head first. Red card, no question about it. Very dangerous and absolutely no reason for it.

You are literally the only person on the planet that thinks that is a red card. Guns, you're getting quite a rep on here for odd comments mate. I think you're probably on the wind-up. At least I hope so.

So sorry Cyril. I will try to make sure my post are more in line with yours in future. Just pointing out a double standard amongst some English fans. If you cant handle that I suggest rugby forums arent for you. Maybe you are too sensitive to handle diverse opinions?

Where's the double standard Guns?

Not one person has condemned what Farrell did yet Healy according to the OP anyway is a scumbag. Double standard. If someone English is going to claim fake outrage then look no further than your own team. Farrell was involved in an incident in nearly every match the worst being the one v Italy which he was lucky not to get sanctioned for.

Someone can claim any player has gone too far even if they don't play for their own team. As long as the double standard wasn't aimed at me anyway, wasn't too clear from your 1st post.

GunsGerms wrote:Not one person has condemned what Farrell did yet Healy according to the OP anyway is a scumbag. Double standard. If someone English is going to claim fake outrage then look no further than your own team. Farrell was involved in an incident in nearly every match the worst being the one v Italy which he was lucky not to get sanctioned for.

The OP (Chunky Norwich) is Welsh isn't he?

Go do what you are best at and annoy GE Cyril or at least post something intellegent.

GunsGerms wrote:Go do what you are best at and annoy GE Cyril or at least post something intellegent.

The OP is Welsh. Not sure why you are ragging the English for it and not sure why you're having a go at anyone really. One poster's view hardly constitutes a national consensus. It's what Irish posters seem to say about you anyway   

Cyril wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Go do what you are best at and annoy GE Cyril or at least post something intellegent.

The OP is Welsh. Not sure why you are ragging the English for it and not sure why you're having a go at anyone really. One poster's view hardly constitutes a national consensus. It's what Irish Munster posters seem to say about you anyway   

Thats great to know Cyril. Munster fans actually secretly like me anyway. To be honest I dont know what other posters say about because I dont really care. Any chance you could start posting about rugby rather than following people around annoying them?

I know we all see what we want to see (and that includes GG).

As I said earlier the issue with the Farrell incident is that the Italian was unharmed, so ultimately all Farrell did was clear him out of the ruck/ whatever it was (yes I must watch it again) using a questionable technique. If he had changed his position slightly he could well have smashed the Italian's head into the dirt but he didnt. You do see a lot of judo style moves around rucks and generally, luckily, nobody gets hurt.

There is plenty of outrage about Farrell's late hit on Murray. There is one lone voice (however loudly its shouting) about the Italian incident

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Go do what you are best at and annoy GE Cyril or at least post something intellegent.

The OP is Welsh. Not sure why you are ragging the English for it and not sure why you're having a go at anyone really. One poster's view hardly constitutes a national consensus. It's what Irish posters seem to say about you anyway   

Thats great to know Cyril. To be honest I dont know what other posters say about because I dont really care. Any chance you could start posting about rugby rather than following people around annoying them?

Glad to help

You're hypersensitive about Irish players and seem to have a downer on English players.

If you get things wrong I'm going to correct you. If that annoys you, think about what you post first and do a bit of research. It stops you looking silly and hitting the wrong targets.

For the record, I think what Healy did was reckless and possibly a yellow but I don't think he's 'scum'. He does need to be more careful after a few incidents in the year or so (same with Farrell).

What that I said re the Healy incident was over sensitive and what dont you agree with? Or as you put it is wrong?

Here is a summary as I'd imagine you havent read it:

Kevin Mealamu got a two game ban for headbutting Lewis Moody while clearing out a ruck. Mealamu said it was unintentional but got a two game ban anyway. Maybe based on this precedent something similar would be appropriate. I dont think there is any harm citing a player if the comissioner believes they have a case to answer. We will never know what Healy's response would have been.

However, there is also precedent for not citing. With regards intention there are ample examples of players not being cited because they were challenging for the ball but clashed with someone in the process. McCaw kneeing Parra in the head and knocking him out in the world cup final, Paul O'Connell kicking David Kearney in the head in a Leinster v Munster derby game.

Watching the footage of the incident I dont see any way it can be determined if Healy was trying to contest for the ball or intentionally injure someone so I think it is hard to know what sanction if any is appropriate. The fact that Picamoles was hurt doesnt prove intent

GunsGerms wrote:What that I said re the Healy incident was over sensitive and what dont you agree with?

It's the way you read an over-the-top comment by a Welsh poster about an Irish player and then go on a tirade about an English player deserving a straight red (for an incident that no other person has even considered was anything near that).

I do agree that the OP is wrong and the Healy incident wasn't anywhere near as bad as he's making out.

I completely disagree with you about the Farrell incident and I think you'll struggle to find anyone to agree with you on that one. Thinking that the OP was English may have clouded your judgment a bit there maybe?

Cyril wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:What that I said re the Healy incident was over sensitive and what dont you agree with?

It's the way you read an over-the-top comment by a Welsh poster about an Irish player and then go on a tirade about an English player deserving a straight red (for an incident that no other person has even considered was anything near that).

I do agree that the OP is wrong and the Healy incident wasn't anywhere near as bad as he's making out.

I completely disagree with you about the Farrell incident and I think you'll struggle to find anyone to agree with you on that one. Thinking that the OP was English may have clouded your judgment a bit there maybe?

I wasnt just commenting on the OP.

Tirade - Its only a tirade to you because you dont agree with it. His actions were dangerous, thats my opinion. I could claim you are being over sensitive becuase you are a Farrell fan. The commentators at the time of the Farrell incident said it was really stupid. I think Brian Moore if I remember right highlighted the stupidity of it. I think you seem to be clinging onto some utopian idea that everyone has to agree with you?

I see you have overlooked my comments on the Healy incident.

Why Farrell was brought into I don't know though as there's plenty of instances of dangerous play much more obvious than this.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why Farrell was brought into I don't know though as there's plenty of instances of dangerous play much more obvious than this.

because he is petulant and guilty of losing his temper a lot in the 6 nations an accusation leveled at Healy primerally by England fans because of the Dan Cole stamp.

I also referenced examples of of incidents involving Paul O'Connell and Kevin Mealamu but because they arent English they went unnoticed.

Give me a better example of dangerous play then?

Guns,

I agree. What Farrell did was pretty stupid (nothing like a red card though). It was stupid because there was no need to do it and it conceded a silly penalty when his side were in a rush to score more points.

You reacted to a Welsh poster having a pop at Ireland by saying 'ooh, look how dirty England are'. That's all I'm saying. Just because a poster has the word 'Norwich' in his username it doesn't mean he's English. If he'd been called Welshy JonesCardiff I bet you wouldn't have mentioned Farrell or 'half the England side' having worse disciplinary records than Healy.

You just seem to have a need to fight fire with fire but aimed for the wrong target. It happens.

Well I think part of the problem Guns is the fans you responded to aren't English. Chunky apparently Welsh, ebop is from NZ I think. What Farrell did was a high tackle not particularly bad but a pen all the same.

As I write this Cyril's just posted a similar thought.

As a Scotsman I will put my opinion on both

Healy - 100% a yellow card. Regardless of intent to head butt (If it was then red), he dived over the ball to slow it down illegally in the red zone, when under pressure. All we can say it was clumsy and illegal - what we can speculate till the cows come home on intent to head butt

Farrell - penalty and possible yellow - clumsy and could have been dangerous - could be classed as 'afters' as well.

Both have a bit of a reputation for being hot headed and a bit cynical - deserved? - So far yes, up to them to sort it out

Why does anyone answer this nasty piece of work chunky norwich? Best ignored

As for the incident. Penalty certainly. Yellow for reckless - possibly. Red - no way jose. Remember this was seen by the officials at the time, the 4th official with the replays and the citing commissioner none of whom deemed it worthy of further action.

stupid, clumsy, maybe reckless.

W

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Piece of filth, scumbag, thug.. what a plonker and a keyboard warrior.  Very easy to say such things about people when they aren't there to hear it or defend themselves.  What Healy did was extremely clumsy and stupid but I highly highly doubt he was trying to injure anyone.  To attack the man's character when you know absolutely nothing about him is just pathetic.

Like I said, keyboard warrior, so go ahead and have your fun.  It says a lot about you.   

While I strongly disagree with calling Healy things like this on a post on here, it's not like Chunky is the only poster to have strongly insulted the character of a player he'd never met based on what he'd seen on the pitch. Not targeted at you, mate' but suggest we all move out of our glass houses before we start throwing stones

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote: No arm clear out at the breakdown- maybe 1 or 2 weeks max. It was a physical game, these things happen. Slap on the wrist territory.

No.

It's a flying headbutt to the face.

It's a 10 weeker given his previous for dangerous play.

Where exactly is it you have your face? On the top of your rather vacuous head? That's where the 'flying headbutt' lands.
Perhaps you should join the citing panels and arrange hearings for such things as 'caused a nasty bruise' or 'made a man fall over'. Perhaps you should just remain the keyboard warrior that you are.

Kind Regards

Another Irish thug