Ditch Scotland and Italy?

Chris Foy in the papers today is advocating that Scotland and Italy should be excluded from the 6Ns on the grounds that they are second tier and have been for the last10 years. I have to say that I have a lot of sympathy with this idea.  It's not good for a test side to get humped by 50 points every year. He suggests they should become part of a kind of div 2 with USA, Canada, Georgia and possibly Romania. Obviously bringing in promotion and relegation would add spice.

Typical, just so typical the 6 Nations should be left alone. Scotland and Italy still fill stadia.

yes why break something not broken . Scotland nearly beat France and they ll be having a New coach soon . Italy beaten everyone except England who for some reason does put high scores on them

Remembering that prior to this seasons fixture England v Italy have been pretty close games.
Yep scotland have been poor for the last 10 years but remember the 90s when ireland and Wales were terrible and rarely won any games. All teams go through bad patches!

Agreed. If we'd had this debate in the 90s we'd have ditched Ireland, and BOD would have spent his career in Eastern Europe playing Georgia and Romania.

Without sounding like a nationalist, what right does the 6 Nations have to evict us anyway? We're a founding member and have been champions a number of times, 3 in my lifetime. Last season we weren't in the bottom two, and defeated the current champions, Ireland. Similarly Italy beat France last year.

I think evicting Scotland and Italy, abolishing the Calcutta Cup and abandoning Edinburgh as a 6 Nations destination would ruin the tournament, and the new 4 nations would fast become sterile.

Still, turkeys don't vote for Christmas......

englandglory4ever wrote:Chris Foy in the papers today is advocating that Scotland and Italy should be excluded from the 6Ns on the grounds that they are second tier and have been for the last10 years. I have to say that I have a lot of sympathy with this idea.  It's not good for a test side to get humped by 50 points every year. He suggests they should become part of a kind of div 2 with USA, Canada, Georgia and possibly Romania. Obviously bringing in promotion and relegation would add spice.

Chris Foy suggests this in the Daily Mail. He writes that "board-room politics won't allow it to be considered ....."
So there is some sense in the board-rooms, after all!

They don't get humped by 50 points every year. Also, it was only last season that each team finished ahead of Ireland and France. What was Foy saying back then?

Yawn. More clickbait journalism from the Daily Fail.

Chris Foy is a total plank

Every country has it's up and downs in it's history, Scotland will rise again at some point and win grand slams.
In the 90's you could easily make an argument for kicking Wales out we were useless and couldn't beat anyone!
In the 70's you could easily make a case for kicking England out they were useless in that period.

I seem to remember France and England talk about leaving, and having a new 5 nations with New Zealand, Australia and South Africa as well, then they realised it would make the world cup pointless.

I would prefer we expand the tournament not shrink it, Scotland and Italy are worth their place. At the moment they are a bit behind the other 4 teams but it's not a gap they can't bridge.

I just wish they'd consider a European Cup when the Lions are playing. All the 6 nations could stick their A teams in there and play the 6 Nations B and C teams. Well...    Scotland could stick their first team in there while all the Lions players are away and actually keep Wales to below 50!      

Scotland came 3rd last year, this year they have a mare and Foy says they should be binned. Fair enough they often play for wooden honors with Italy but lets remember France won Le spoon last year losing to Italy, there is fluctuation in the table, apart from 2nd place obviously.
What is worth considering is a two tier tournament though. I would love to see the likes of Georgia and Romania being brought on by involvement in the greatest sporting tournament in rugby.

Shifty wrote:Chris Foy is a total plank

Every country has it's up and downs in it's history, Scotland will rise again at some point and win grand slams.  
In the 90's you could easily make an argument for kicking Wales out we were useless and couldn't beat anyone!
In the 70's you could easily make a case for kicking England out they were useless in that period.

I seem to remember France and England talk about leaving, and having a new 5 nations with New Zealand, Australia and South Africa as well, then they realised it would make the world cup pointless.

I would prefer we expand the tournament not shrink it, Scotland and Italy are worth their place.  At the moment they are a bit behind the other 4 teams but it's not a gap they can't bridge.

I just wish they'd consider a European Cup when the Lions are playing.  All the 6 nations could stick their A teams in there and play the 6 Nations B and C teams.  Well...    Scotland could stick their first team in there while all the Lions players are away and actually keep Wales to below 50!      

Had England joined such a group they would have become the whipping boys of the competition and them and France competing for the wooden spoon every year.  It never sinks in that each year England have one or two unconvincing wins and all of a sudden they are the best in the world.  They have done nothing in the past 11 years and apart from 2003 have hardly set the world of Union worldwide on fire.  Even Wales the 2nd smallest country in the top 10 are only one game behind after 125 games ... progress then England 

rainbow-warrior wrote:

Shifty wrote:Chris Foy is a total plank

Every country has it's up and downs in it's history, Scotland will rise again at some point and win grand slams.  
In the 90's you could easily make an argument for kicking Wales out we were useless and couldn't beat anyone!
In the 70's you could easily make a case for kicking England out they were useless in that period.

I seem to remember France and England talk about leaving, and having a new 5 nations with New Zealand, Australia and South Africa as well, then they realised it would make the world cup pointless.

I would prefer we expand the tournament not shrink it, Scotland and Italy are worth their place.  At the moment they are a bit behind the other 4 teams but it's not a gap they can't bridge.

I just wish they'd consider a European Cup when the Lions are playing.  All the 6 nations could stick their A teams in there and play the 6 Nations B and C teams.  Well...    Scotland could stick their first team in there while all the Lions players are away and actually keep Wales to below 50!      

Had England joined such a group they would have become the whipping boys of the competition and them and France competing for the wooden spoon every year.  It never sinks in that each year England have one or two unconvincing wins and all of a sudden they are the best in the world.  They have done nothing in the past 11 years and apart from 2003 have hardly set the world of Union worldwide on fire.  Even Wales the 2nd smallest country in the top 10 are only one game behind after 125 games ... progress then England 

Its not all bad news, they have been very consistent Rainbow.   

Even if you accept the idea that Scotland and Italy are permanently poor the proposal to have top four with promotion and relegation makes no sense.

Every other year one of the top four would have to play in the second tier and play only 'poor' teams and presumably win every match by a big margin. In the years when one of the top 4 teams are playing in the second tier then it would be a pointless competition because the winner would be known in advance. It would be like the SPL with Celtic guaranteed to win from day one.  

Scotland and Italy would be damaged financially so when they are promoted they would be thrashed by an even bigger margin.

Just leave well alone.

it would be nice to have home and aways each year- but it shouldn't be about ditching - it should be about adding 2 more to a two tier tourney with promotion and relegation..

no exclusion but inclusion.

When I sae this article in the Daily Rag Mail I wonderd where Foy came up with this, reading 606?

well we have been talking about it for a long time- but then I doubt we are the only ones !!

englandglory4ever wrote:Chris Foy in the papers today is advocating that Scotland and Italy should be excluded from the 6Ns on the grounds that they are second tier and have been for the last10 years. I have to say that I have a lot of sympathy with this idea.  It's not good for a test side to get humped by 50 points every year. He suggests they should become part of a kind of div 2 with USA, Canada, Georgia and possibly Romania. Obviously bringing in promotion and relegation would add spice.

This is something you would only find in an English paper. England werent great themselves a few years back. The unbelievable arrogance.

I see no reason to get rid of Italy and Scotland. They both add to the tournament.

GunsGerms wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Chris Foy in the papers today is advocating that Scotland and Italy should be excluded from the 6Ns on the grounds that they are second tier and have been for the last10 years. I have to say that I have a lot of sympathy with this idea.  It's not good for a test side to get humped by 50 points every year. He suggests they should become part of a kind of div 2 with USA, Canada, Georgia and possibly Romania. Obviously bringing in promotion and relegation would add spice.

This is something you would only find in an English paper. England werent great themselves a few years back. The unbelievable arrogance.

I see no reason to get rid of Italy and Scotland. They both add to the tournament.

They certainly do, they usually add 4 points to the other team's total.

Scotland finished third last year, Italy 4th. Scotland will get better when Cotter arrives.

Italy beat ireland and France last year two title contenders this year. The author of this article must be a real plank.

I think we should ditch Chris Foy for this moronic and self-defeating article.

What would we replace them with? More games between the same teams, the 4 remaining sides playing each other home and way- a less exciting format and a format where the sense of occasion is lost through fatigue of playing the same teams at home every year. Or maybe Georgia etc. who are likely as bad or worse as the two teams we have now.

Throw this idea in the trash where it belongs. No, what we should be doing is arranging more tests between the 6N sides and the other European nations to try and bring them on while retaining the current format of the 6N until other European nations are ready to join it!

Maybe the English should focus on helping teams like Italy and Scotland become stronger rather than shafting them at every opportunity ala the recent Heineken cup ramson talks.

The English? Are we being represented by the 1 journo again. Super.

What do you mean the English?

Guns  

Come on lads - lets all take the day of work and fly to scotland or italy and start teaching these lads how to play rugby.

I bagsy the Italian trip.

Notch wrote:Guns  

Is that the best contribution you have Notch. Maybe you should join a debating society?

mystiroakey wrote:Come on lads - lets all take the day of work and fly to scotland or italy and start teaching these lads how to play rugby.

I bagsy the Italian trip.

I'll take the Scottish trip, I prefer deep fried food over pasta.

mystiroakey wrote:Come on lads - lets all take the day of work and fly to scotland or italy and start teaching these lads how to play rugby.

I bagsy the Italian trip.

Flattered that you think you could solve the problems of Scottish rugby in a day!! A ten year sabbatical is a more realistic stretch of time!!

I reckon Cotter will have an instant impact. He is a very experienced coach with a good track record. Scotland have a pool of player that are good enough to challenge for the six nations and they are most certainly playing way below their potential.

There are lots of things to address but Im sure Cotter is a good man to do this.

I love the way us 'English' are criticized for poking our noses into other peoples business yet when we try to look after our own clubs interests we are criticized for not doing more to help failing Nations to play a game.

 

I for one would hate to see Scotland and Italy ejected. Scotland gave me some solace in the 90's when Ireland were so bad.

However, I don't necessarily agree that is a cyclical problem with Scotland now, and I don't know that it compares to Ireland in the 90's.
Professionalism was the best thing to happen to Irish rugby and fortunately for us the provincial system fitted perfectly with the changes professionalism brought. Scottish rugby (judging by the comments from the Scottish posters on here) seems to be on the wane at grass roots level.

Hopefully Cotter's imminent arrival will improve things for Scotland (though I was bemused to hear Johnson is still to be involved   ).
A stronger Scotland team should also improve the interest at grass roots level.

Johnson will be director of rugby. Sounds like a quangoesque position.

GunsGerms wrote:I reckon Cotter will have an instant impact. He is a very experienced coach with a good track record. Scotland have a pool of player that are good enough to challenge for the six nations and they are most certainly playing way below their potential.

There are lots of things to address but Im sure Cotter is a good man to do this.

That quite patently is not the case, although their potential is debatable.

There is a degree of hypocrisy always evident in these huff and puff righteous debates about who should be in and who should be out.

The only reason England came oh so close to swiping the 6N title is the hatchet job their superiority over Italy allowed them.
The only reason Ireland won the 6N was because of the hatchet job their superiority over Italy allowed them.

Dead beat sides in any contest always - always - allows the 'cream' a somewhat easier ride to the top of a ladder.  And despite the bullschyte that goes on in 606 quite often about 'cannon fodder' sides skewing results and not deserving their place (either at club level or International level) - the truth is that the 'top' sides take anything they get by way of an advantage and still crow openly about being top dollar side at the end, regardless of the detritus the were asked to sweep up on the the way.

If England wins next year and use Scotland or Italy to do the scoring required, they'll be quite happy that either or both those sides were available to lend a hand.

Jimpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I reckon Cotter will have an instant impact. He is a very experienced coach with a good track record. Scotland have a pool of player that are good enough to challenge for the six nations and they are most certainly playing way below their potential.

There are lots of things to address but Im sure Cotter is a good man to do this.

That quite patently is not the case, although their potential is debatable.

Everyone said the Irish players werent good enough when they finished second last last year. New coach and all of a sudden champions. The only position I reckon Scotland arent strong at all in is OH imo. Wier missed more tackles than anyone in the 6 nations this year though he probably didnt get enough help.

Its been a long time since Scotland had a decent coach.

EDIT: @SecretFly

Wasn't the main difference between England and Ireland the level of victory over Wales?

England lost to France by 2, beat Ireland by 3 and Wales by 11 (so +12)

Ireland beat Wales by 26, beat France by 2 and lost to England by 3 (so +25)

EDIT: The PD for England and Ireland over Italy and Scotland was exactly the same, +61.

The real margin for victory was the illegal blocking of POC for the Irish try :)14 point swing which would have given England the championship.

Personally would prefer a linked system so that any team in Europe could make the 6 nations (if we retain the 6 nations format, i.e. 6 teams a tier).  Either that or scrap it for a proper European competition.

Yes, the Wales game was the difference really. Aparently Swarzeski try v Ireland was a knock on too but I'm not convinced it was. There were a few other tight calls in nearly every game that could have lead to a different outcome to the tournament however, overall I reckon the Wales games were the difference.

Em, Hammer....................... Italy was the side that decided it.  England went chasing.  Ireland did just about enough the week before to make that a bridge too far for England.

And if we're going to get snipy on what-ifs we could try a yellow card and hands in rucks....

But the truth is............... Italy was the side England used to try to chase the score they needed.  Again, Italy loses out on the history of truth and it again becomes an Ireland v Wales v France v England thing.  No it wasn't...it was Italy and two final weeks of games they were involved in.

GunsGerms wrote:

Everyone said the Irish players werent good enough when they finished second last last year. New coach and all of a sudden champions. The only position I reckon Scotland arent strong at all in is OH imo. Wier missed more tackles than anyone in the 6 nations this year though he probably didnt get enough help.

Its been a long time since Scotland had a decent coach.

you might want to re-word that GG. maybe a selected few said such thing but most posters around here (even the WUMs) deep down know the quality of the irish players for their regional prowess in the HC speak for itself. Am not sure you can compare Scotland and Ireland yet... but I do agree that the only way is up for Scotland and am mildly excited to see them in a year time under VC.

Scrumpy wrote:I love the way us 'English' are criticized for poking our noses into other peoples business yet when we try to look after our own clubs interests we are criticized for not doing more to help failing Nations to play a game.

 

incredible arrogance.

who has criticized you for poking your noses into other peoples business ??

the only thing english club rugby is offering is, unsurprisingly, to get as much of the pot in their bellies at everyone elses expense. bar none.

their performance in the heiniken cup should be results driven and therefore the rabo should have more not less teams , and more not less of the revenue. end of story

To be honest Whocares there were lots of Irish fans, if fact mostly Irish fans who were saying that our players arent good enough. I never believed that though.

Scotland dont have the reserves other teams have but they do have some really good players that are international class. I think if you look at the two best teams in the six nations right now what makes them really strong is that they both play as a team, are well drilled and a strong unit rather than having 15 world class players.

I dont see any reason why the Scots cant achieve this sort of unity too.

alive555 wrote:
incredible arrogance.

who has critisized you for poking your noses into other peoples business ??

the only thing english club rugby is offering is, unsurprisingly, to get as much of the pot in their bellies at everyone elses expense. bar none.

their performance in the heiniken cup should be results driven and therefore the rabo should have more not less teams , and more not less of the revenue. end of story

Oh we're 'arrogant' now for looking after our own clubs!  

Nice one.

It isnt looking after your own clubs it being greedy to the detriment to everyone esle. Thats how I see it anyway.

whocares wrote:

you might want to re-word that GG. maybe a selected few said such thing but most posters around here (even the WUMs) deep down know the quality of the irish players for their regional prowess in the HC speak for itself.

Actually Guns is right from my memories over the last few seasons, whocares.  

Whilst many people have been quite ready to acknowledge Irish Provinces in HEC competition, the more regular story has been that Irish Provinces have been helped heavily by the foreign hordes (of which we have less than most Engish or French sides), easy Pro12, cottonwool strategies and, finally, that club class is a step down in intensity and ability required to International class.  

Thus Kidney was said to be handicapped by having a list of good club players who just didn't have the step-uppability to get to International class.  I certainly remember many outsider fans and Irish fans keep suggesting that Kidney wasn't our problem and that we should be more thankful and grateful to him, stop whining and realise we just don't have the players in depth to keep things going at International level

Either that or scrap it for a proper European competition..

Hammer...do you mean a football style Euro championships of say 16 teams?

Scotland can get close to that sort of unity but it might take more than a year to make them strong contenders. they could do with a new front row as well.
 
may they should just merge with Italy   

GunsGerms wrote:It isnt looking after your own clubs it being greedy to the detriment to everyone esle. Thats how I see it anyway.

Rubbish, but you're intitiled to your own opinion.

Scrumpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:It isnt looking after your own clubs it being greedy to the detriment to everyone esle. Thats how I see it anyway.

Rubbish, but you're intitiled to your own opinion.

This isnt a debate for this thread but yes that is my opinion.

But why should 'the English' look after Scotland and Italy?

The two tier idea will be all well and good as long as it's Italy and Scotland yo-yoing between the bottom place and another set of whipping boys from Europe coming to gift the "Big" sides a good points difference. However, if at some point one of France or England slip up then suddenly it will be a bad idea and "don't you understand we have all the fans and the TV money and can't possibly be relegated to play the likes of Romania and Spain", and how are we going to sell out Twickenham/SdeF"....