Conclusive proof that Djokovic v Nadal is the ultimate tennis rivalry

It's competitive
40 matches played and the H2H is at 22-18.

There is no inbuilt advantage
Fedal sounds great in theory. Two greats together. But then Paul McCartney working with Michael Jackson was great in theory but produced tripe like The Girl Is Mine.

Fedal never did it for me. Seeing Federer's backhand endlessly bombarded wasn't much fun even in 2007. Nowadays it feels like watching a pitbull maul the faithful old family pet.

If I'm going to watch a pitbull fight, then I want to see him against a Rottweiler.

Yes, there a certain advantages in Djokovic v Nadal. Novak's patterns give him an edge in hard courts, Rafa's give him the edge on clay. But both know if they are not quite at their best, the other is in striking distance. Clay, HC, bo3, bo5... doesn't matter. It's always dramatic.

It's won and lost in the mind
Why has Steven Seagal never achieved critical acclaim? Well, his limited acting skills and expanding waistline are certainly factors. But mainly it's because his characters are impervious. They win simply because they are so much better than their opponents.

The great action scenes exploit psychology. Dalton v Jimmy in Roadhouse. Matrix v Bennett in Commando. Megatron v Optimus Prime in Transformers: The Movie. All great battles feature equals who win or lose because of moments of psychological strength or weakness.

Djokovic v Nadal frequently comes down to who can't stand the psychological heat.


I think these points prove conclusively that Djokovic v Nadal is the ultimate tennis rivalry.

In terms of results yes this has to be the greatest Tennis rivalry I have seen, but I won't say in terms of excitement, I sleep in the mid match between these two as I know I can get up and watch after a quick 1-2 hour nap.

I enjoyed the rivalry in 2011 and Rafa's comeback year in 2013 start, but not sure how long Rafa will hold it, he seemed mentally as well as physically fatigued when faced Djoko in Miami masters, I for the first time saw Rafa play a match with little intensity.

Fedal rivalries might have been one sided but they have a contrasting game and than enlighted the crowd, I would say one of the best Rivalries till 2008 or 2009 AO, Fed certainly not the same anymore and hence the rivalry started to die down big time.

Many of Fedal matches eventhough ended up in Rafa's hands some of them have been very close, the Miami 5 setter win, Wim 08, AO 09, Wim 07, FO 06 and 07 , I would even say FO 11 and many Madrid encounters.

Back to Djoko- Rafa rivalry, it was one sided at the start in favour of Rafa, and then one- Sided now in favor of Djoko barring 2011 and 2013 where most results happened without the expected result for me its 1 sided affair too most times.

Djokovic always believed he had the tools to beat Rafa, but he didn't have the stamina and physique to out last him those days but now he can do that.

Djokovic on 2007-2008 claimed he didn't have to do anything special to beat Rafa in clay.

Good post HMM, nicely-written.

It's undoubtedly an intense & competitive rivalry, and the matches have, for the most part, been fiercely contested. Whether or not it's the "ultimate rivalry" will ultimately (apologies!) come down to personal taste, as well as pure stats/closeness of results. But your point about unpredictability being a key factor is well-made.

Their style of play is not to everyone's taste (I myself enjoyed the Mac/Borg rivalry a lot more, even though they played far fewer matches) and sometimes Novak v Rafa has been more about quantity than quality ; I for one wouldn't be too bothered if we never got another marathon final like AO 2012

Okay ..... The Girl is Mine wasn't exactly a collaborative masterpiece. But .... come on ...surely you must have liked 'Say Say Say' ......?!!? 

lags72 wrote:Okay ..... The Girl is Mine wasn't exactly a collaborative masterpiece. But .... come on ...surely you must have liked 'Say Say Say' ......?!!? 

Lags, I'll grant you that one.  

In tennis terms, the "Say Say Say" of Fedal was probably the Miami 5 setter. W07 was also pretty good. I liked those ones because you could see Rafa had that match up advantage but Federer had the experience and wherewithal to combat it. They were finely poised matches.

AO09 was very good but was a poor 5th set.

Wimbledon 08 I think is massively over-rated. I think its reputation stems from maybe the best tie break ever. But the rest of the match felt like it was on Rafa's racquet and Fed was just hanging on and getting out of jail in the tie breaks.

invisiblecoolers wrote:I sleep in the mid match between these two as I know I can get up and watch after a quick 1-2 hour nap.

Ha! That tends to be more Djokovic v Murray for me. Djokovic v Nadal I find more captivating as there appears to be a level of madness to some of the rallies!

By the way, I love that video of Novak you put up. It seemed like bravado at the time but the passing years have given it added context.

Federer v. Nadal is the most overrated non-rivalry in the history of the sport. It hasn't been good since the start of 2009. Since then despite a couple of cracking indoor performances by Federer we really haven't seen much of a rivalry. Even the repetitive patterns of play of Rafa play fed's backhand till it shanks is dull. Some great matches early on but really Federer v. Nadal is a rivalry in the way the Titanic had a rivalry with a North Atlantic iceberg. Similar to federer the titanic was much heralded, sleek, and supposedly unsinkable. But when it collided with Rafa it sank within an hour or so.

As for Djoko v. Rafa I find it to be the highest evolution of the power baseline game that we have seen. The level of quality groundstrokes and incredible speed about the court these two posses is frankly frightening. Strategically, it is interesting that Nadal now has to adjust and play Djokovic differently than how he plays the rest of the tour something he never had to do for any other opponent. And Rafa to his credit has shown that he can do that. Djokovic to beat Nadal has to be mentally and physically tough and can't let up like he at times can get away with against others on the tour.

PS I was laughing so hard when reading your famous fight scene analogy. Love Roadhouse one of the most underrated movies of all time. What about Luke skywalker v. Darth Vader now there was a battle of mental and moral resolve.

socal1976 wrote: Federer v. Nadal is a rivalry in the way the Titanic had a rivalry with a North Atlantic iceberg.  

  That's one for the museum!

I had a hunch you'd be a connoisseur of Road House. One of the all time great films. Luke Skywalker v Darth Vader is a famous battle but I'd rank it behind Dalton v Jimmy because Darth Vader at no point tells Luke Skywalker what he used to do to guys like him in prison. 

HM Murdoch wrote:

socal1976 wrote: Federer v. Nadal is a rivalry in the way the Titanic had a rivalry with a North Atlantic iceberg.  

  That's one for the museum!

I had a hunch you'd be a connoisseur of Road House. One of the all time great films. Luke Skywalker v Darth Vader is a famous battle but I'd rank it behind Dalton v Jimmy because Darth Vader at no point tells Luke Skywalker what he used to do to guys like him in prison. 

Yeah great line, lol! I wore my hair in a mullet for a year in honor of that movie.

rightly or wrongly if Federer-Nadal is the Wimbledon final this year, and tickets are sold on the black market outside the stadium the price will be higher than if it's Djokovic-Nadal, even though the rivalry is a shadow of its former self

Henman Bill wrote:rightly or wrongly if Federer-Nadal is the Wimbledon final this year, and tickets are sold on the black market outside the stadium the price will be higher than if it's Djokovic-Nadal, even though the rivalry is a shadow of its former self

Agreed   

If I get a chance to watch one of these matches [Djoko-Nadal or Fedal] I would take Fedal match for sure eventhough I know the result   I would still go for the few minute master class of Fed and to see Rafa's lighting defense.

In comparison to Nole-Rafa finals I would rather go for a QF day where there would be Nole-Del Potro or Rafa-Del Potro matches

Henman Bill wrote:rightly or wrongly if Federer-Nadal is the Wimbledon final this year, and tickets are sold on the black market outside the stadium the price will be higher than if it's Djokovic-Nadal, even though the rivalry is a shadow of its former self

Very true. I wonder if this is because people love the rivalry or because they love the individuals?

I suspect it's more of a Federer thing. His popularity remains enormous and will probably only get larger as he enters the twilight of his career.

My impression is that Rafa doesn't command anywhere near he same level of popularity. The last few matches he's played v Novak, I thought the crowd didn't sound like they had a clear favourite. When Novak plays Roger, you can tell Roger has more of the crowd.

HM Murdoch wrote:

Henman Bill wrote:rightly or wrongly if Federer-Nadal is the Wimbledon final this year, and tickets are sold on the black market outside the stadium the price will be higher than if it's Djokovic-Nadal, even though the rivalry is a shadow of its former self

Very true. I wonder if this is because people love the rivalry or because they love the individuals?

I suspect it's more of a Federer thing. His popularity remains enormous and will probably only get larger as he enters the twilight of his career.

My impression is that Rafa doesn't command anywhere near he same level of popularity. The last few matches he's played v Novak, I thought the crowd didn't sound like they had a clear favourite. When Novak plays Roger, you can tell Roger has more of the crowd.

Roger is the most popular player in tennis history that can not be doubted. The man has elevated the game in terms of popularity and playing level. That being said his non-rivalry with Nadal is pretty much a boring matchup. As for Rafa I think he is very popular but doesn't come close to matching Federer's drawing power.

HM Murdoch wrote:
Very true. I wonder if this is because people love the rivalry or because they love the individuals?

I suspect it's more of a Federer thing. His popularity remains enormous and will probably only get larger as he enters the twilight of his career.

My impression is that Rafa doesn't command anywhere near he same level of popularity. The last few matches he's played v Novak, I thought the crowd didn't sound like they had a clear favourite. When Novak plays Roger, you can tell Roger has more of the crowd.

I guess you nailed it here, people love both players and thats one of the reason they draw a lot of crowd, I guess to be frank Rafa individually do draw a lot of crowd and so is Novak, but again Novak-Rafa is similar brand of tennis, its more like who will fall first.

the attraction of Federer-Nadal is that the possibility of something great outranks the probability of something good

Henman Bill wrote:the attraction of Federer-Nadal is that the possibility of something great outranks the probability of something good

But has that possibility of great matches really been there in Fedal, I mean we had great matches between the two but I can't think of one after AO 2009. I mean yes Fed has stepped up and one a couple times with sterling performances at the WTF. But if they haven't played a great match, truly great match in 5 years is there a real possibility of something great?

Good article, though to say 'best in history' the forum has to drag its head out of the @r$e of modern tennis and consider other great rivalries. I know that's a toughie for some.

Sampras / Agassi; McEnroe / Lendl; Connors / Borg; these, plus earlier ones I never witnessed need consideration.

That said, I put this high up. I agree with Murdock that it's more even though I consider Djokovic has the match up advantage that will always give him the edge when both players are on it. That's what happened in 2011 and Miami suggests 2014 could be a repeat; that final felt similar to 2011, when Rafa looked impotent.

bogbrush wrote:Good article, though to say 'best in history' the forum has to drag its head out of the @r$e of modern tennis and consider other great rivalries. I know that's a toughie for some.

Sampras / Agassi; McEnroe / Lendl; Connors / Borg; these, plus earlier ones I never witnessed need consideration.

I knew someone would pull me up on declaring it the best ever! I'm not usually a fan of such sensationalism but I like to indulge myself occasionally.

Other historic rivalries I enjoyed:

Sampras v Agassi - this was a match up of contrasting styles that generally worked as a spectacle. Sampras seemed to have the edge at slams but I see that as mentality advantage rather than a stylistic advantage.

Becker v Edberg - the head to head ended up well in Becker's favour but between about 1987 and 1990, it was fantastic. I'm not a big fan of SV match ups but these two guys had such different temperaments and such different on court dynamics that the rivalry was elevated above other SV matches in my opinion.

I liked Connors v. McEnroe, not only did you have the stylistic difference but both guys really disliked each other, well everyone disliked Connors. Sadly I was too young and the only match of theirs I still remember is the 1983 USO final Connors' last slam win and an incredible fight going into the match everyone thought Mac would beat the old guy

socal1976 wrote:

Henman Bill wrote:the attraction of Federer-Nadal is that the possibility of something great outranks the probability of something good

But has that possibility of great matches really been there in Fedal, I mean we had great matches between the two but I can't think of one after AO 2009. I mean yes Fed has stepped up and one a couple times with sterling performances at the WTF. But if they haven't played a great match, truly great match in 5 years is there a real possibility of something great?

In some ways it was a great rivlary until AO 2009, and in that match Nadal conclusively "won" the rivalry, if such a thing can make sense. That win made the rivalry too one sided. Had Federer prevailed on that day, then the history of the rivlary would have been more evenly balanced, and it would have been greater. Since then it's true that there hasn't been a great match of the calibre of their Wimbledon, AO, and Rome finals earlier on, although FO 2011 was a high quality match, and would likely have been a great one had Fed converted a set point in the first set.

On any given day there is only a small chance that a match between them will be great, but it could happen once more. Maybe it never will, but that's the hope!

Interesting article. I was extremely fortunate at the WTF in December to get to see Roger, Rafa and Novak on the same day. Including a very good (but not great) Novak v Roger match.

If I think of all the match ups I would like to watch amongst the big 4, I would probably put Fedal last. Sure, they're the two biggest stars of the sport and THAT Wimbledon final will go down in history, as will the AO final a year later. But it's the only match between the big 4 where I'd be sure of the result before it even started. (Rafa v Murray on clay excluded).

I would definitely choose Rafa v Novak ahead of it. On any surface. Nobody has the flair of Roger but a great match first and foremost has to be competetive. Rafa and Novak always deliver competetive, and athleticism beyond belief. That for me compensates more than sufficiently for a few Federer magic moments in a defeat to Rafa.

I sincerely hope that they meet in the final of the French because I know it will be a war. And I love a sporting war between two gladiators. It is the best match up around because it's the closest.

Henman Bill wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

Henman Bill wrote:the attraction of Federer-Nadal is that the possibility of something great outranks the probability of something good

But has that possibility of great matches really been there in Fedal, I mean we had great matches between the two but I can't think of one after AO 2009. I mean yes Fed has stepped up and one a couple times with sterling performances at the WTF. But if they haven't played a great match, truly great match in 5 years is there a real possibility of something great?

In some ways it was a great rivlary until AO 2009, and in that match Nadal conclusively "won" the rivalry, if such a thing can make sense. That win made the rivalry too one sided. Had Federer prevailed on that day, then the history of the rivlary would have been more evenly balanced, and it would have been greater. Since then it's true that there hasn't been a great match of the calibre of their Wimbledon, AO, and Rome finals earlier on, although FO 2011 was a high quality match, and would likely have been a great one had Fed converted a set point in the first set.

On any given day there is only a small chance that a match between them will be great, but it could happen once more. Maybe it never will, but that's the hope!

Yeah, I agree that if we had seen Fed pull out a classic match since 08 against Nadal at a slam the rivalry would be better. I just don't see Fed having much of chance of pulling off that great match against Nadal anymore except on indoors which he always seems to play much better than Nadal. To me if Fed had been able to beat Nadal in a slam in the last few years it would have improved the standing of the rivalry. But Fed hasn't beaten Nadal in a slam since 2007 that is seven years now.

Danny_1982 wrote:Interesting article. I was extremely fortunate at the WTF in December to get to see Roger, Rafa and Novak on the same day. Including a very good (but not great) Novak v Roger match.

If I think of all the match ups I would like to watch amongst the big 4, I would probably put Fedal last. Sure, they're the two biggest stars of the sport and THAT Wimbledon final will go down in history, as will the AO final a year later. But it's the only match between the big 4 where I'd be sure of the result before it even started. (Rafa v Murray on clay excluded).

I would definitely choose Rafa v Novak ahead of it. On any surface. Nobody has the flair of Roger but a great match first and foremost has to be competetive. Rafa and Novak always deliver competetive, and athleticism beyond belief. That for me compensates more than sufficiently for a few Federer magic moments in a defeat to Rafa.

I sincerely hope that they meet in the final of the French because I know it will be a war. And I love a sporting war between two gladiators. It is the best match up around because it's the closest.

Exactly, Danny a rivalry has to be close enough where the victor is in doubt in most match ups. But beyond the competitiveness is how many big finals Nadal and Djoko have played against each other. It is like a never ending war for supremacy. Since the USO 2010 Djokovic and Nadal have played in 6 slam finals going 3-3.

Yeah socal, it is a tight one when they meet. The third set of the 2011 US open final is one of my favourite hours of tennis in recent times. Entertainment and athleticism of the highest level.

The best thing about the clay season is when they meet. Always great to watch. For my particular taste of tennis anyway.

Just reading this comment back. It starts with some mildly interesting stats before lurching dangerously close to wummery:

I'm going to put on the cap of ATP statto for half an hour and come up with some interesting stats.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Singles.aspx

1. The number of ranking points that Nadal and Djokovic have is 43% of the total of the top 10.
2. They have more ranking points than the next 5 players (3-7) combined.
3. The difference in ranking points from 2 to 3 is more than the difference from 3 to 1000.
4. As a ratio rather than an absolute number, the 2 ranked player Djokovic, has 2.05 times the points of the 3 ranked player Warwinka. The same ratio takes us from 3 down to 10 (Raonic.)

All those of you who pointed to Federer playing in a weak era due to the poor quality of the no 3 in 2006..does this mean Nadal and Djokovic are operating in a weak era with useless players beneath them such as Murray, Federer and so on. Just for a laugh I'll spin the clock back exactly 8 years to the same week in 2006. I find that the no 2 Rafael Nadal had 1.9x the number of points of the no 3 David Nalbandian. That's less than the gap now! The top rankings of 2006 were also propped up by former slam winners like Roddick, Hewitt and Agassi, in the same way that Murray and Federer are doing today!

In favour of Federer-Nadal being best: Its best matches > Nadal-Djokovic best matches.
In favour of Djokovic-Nadal being better. Its worst matches > Nadal-Federer worst ones.

I do think the US Open 2011 was a very good match and had Nadal's level been a notch or two higher to take it to a 5th set could have been a real classic. Likewise the FO semi between Djokovic and Nadal more recently was close to a real classic, but the net touch spoiled it a bit for me.

Henman Bill wrote: Likewise the FO semi between Djokovic and Nadal more recently was close to a real classic, but the net touch spoiled it a bit for me.

That net touch traumatised me!

The only other sporting moment that can equal its gut-wrenching agony to me is when Gerrard scored that 25 yard screamer in the last minute of the 2006 FA Cup final.

In both cases I knew that a golden opportunity had just slipped away and the day was lost.

The agony of hope.

Henman Bill wrote:In favour of Federer-Nadal being best: Its best matches > Nadal-Djokovic worse matches.
In favour of Djokovic-Nadal being better. Its worst matches > Nadal-Federer worst ones.

I agree with this. AO'09 is the peak of both rivalries by some distance, I would say. I think HM was deliberately poking fun with a faux-WUM tone (at least, I hope so!).

IMO, the Federer - Djokovic rivalry is top of the pile in the last decade or so.

Silver wrote:I think HM was deliberately poking fun with a faux-WUM tone (at least, I hope so!).

Moi?  

If I were to combine the Fed/Rafa and Rafa/Novak matches, I'd say that Wimbledon 08 tie break is the best passage of play but USO 2011 Final is the best match. I remember watching that USO match and thinking I was seeing tennis breaking new ground. Not everyone liked the ground it was breaking but I loved it.

its a better rivalry, no doubt

HM Murdoch wrote:

Henman Bill wrote: Likewise the FO semi between Djokovic and Nadal more recently was close to a real classic, but the net touch spoiled it a bit for me.

That net touch traumatised me!

The only other sporting moment that can equal its gut-wrenching agony to me is when Gerrard scored that 25 yard screamer in the last minute of the 2006 FA Cup final.

In both cases I knew that a golden opportunity had just slipped away and the day was lost.

The agony of hope.

Gerrard was a force of nature in those days. A year earlier had been Istanbul, of which no more needs to be said.

Now he needs 5 wins to collect the set. The agony of hope indeed, I cannot watch any matches now unless they're 3 up (which means most games from half time recently to be fair. ).

bogbrush wrote:

HM Murdoch wrote:

Henman Bill wrote: Likewise the FO semi between Djokovic and Nadal more recently was close to a real classic, but the net touch spoiled it a bit for me.

That net touch traumatised me!

The only other sporting moment that can equal its gut-wrenching agony to me is when Gerrard scored that 25 yard screamer in the last minute of the 2006 FA Cup final.

In both cases I knew that a golden opportunity had just slipped away and the day was lost.

The agony of hope.

Gerrard was a force of nature in those days. A year earlier had been Istanbul, of which no more needs to be said.

Now he needs 5 wins to collect the set. The agony of hope indeed, I cannot watch any matches now unless they're 3 up (which means most games from half time recently to be fair. ).

Not a Liverpool fan BB but I am rooting for you guys because I can't stand Chelsea or City. Just not a big fan of those type of clubs ran by an oil dictator and a shady oligarch who buy stars players like most people change socks. He beat AC milan on his own that day. Of course my gunners collapsed again as usual so if we can't win it go Liverpool.

bogbrush wrote: The agony of hope indeed, I cannot watch any matches now unless they're 3 up (which means most games from half time recently to be fair. ).

BB, you've had a lot of years where your favourite football team and favourite tennis player have swept aside all before them. I think a spell of hopeful agony may be character building for you.  

I'm in a quandary over Liverpool this season.

I like the way Liverpool has played and I'm impressed with how they have gone about their business to get in this position. In football terms, I'd like them to win.

Unfortunately, I also have a number of friends who support Liverpool who have no association with the place or the club other than the fact they were the dominant team in our youth. There really will be no living with them if Liverpool can go all the way!

Come on folks......can we get back on topic please.

What's the general consensus on La Liga title race .....will it be Atletico, Barca, or Real ........  

It's pretty much as tight as the Premiership, so an exciting finish to the season.

HM Murdoch wrote:

Silver wrote:I think HM was deliberately poking fun with a faux-WUM tone (at least, I hope so!).

Moi?  

If I were to combine the Fed/Rafa and Rafa/Novak matches, I'd say that Wimbledon 08 tie break is the best passage of play but USO 2011 Final is the best match. I remember watching that USO match and thinking I was seeing tennis breaking new ground. Not everyone liked the ground it was breaking but I loved it.

We all know you're an outrageous stirrer HM, don't try to deny it

I'd sooner see the Pool win it than City or Chelsea as well, despite the Suarez debacles of last season...

lags: Would love to see Athletico snatch it at the death!

I'm backing Atleti, back them to put Barcelona away tonight as well

HM Murdoch wrote:

bogbrush wrote: The agony of hope indeed, I cannot watch any matches now unless they're 3 up (which means most games from half time recently to be fair. ).

BB, you've had a lot of years where your favourite football team and favourite tennis player have swept aside all before them. I think a spell of hopeful agony may be character building for you.  

I'm in a quandary over Liverpool this season.

I like the way Liverpool has played and I'm impressed with how they have gone about their business to get in this position. In football terms, I'd like them to win.

Unfortunately, I also have a number of friends who support Liverpool who have no association with the place or the club other than the fact they were the dominant team in our youth. There really will be no living with them if Liverpool can go all the way!

I've been building character for 24 years, well mostly anyway (the odd FA Cup & Champions league excepted). Time for my character to be eroded a bit.

I hear you on the friends. All I can say is that I'm a native.

I really hope Liverpool win the league this year for the fans and for Gerrard and the club and the underdog support. As recently as say February I gave them little hope, but there is real hope now but it's very even odds between the three. 2 very good titles races this year.